Thing about the Sarutobi fight.

[Exaar]

fair point with the tsunade thing i just though hashi would be stronger

if you watch the anime and read the manga you see that he had no choice he couldnt do anything else the only thing he could do was use a move that was guaranteed to work ...but it kills you in return he failed to take orochimaru with him also - he knows over 1k jutsus so why does he just come up with a plan better than killing himself

Because he chakra to Mess around trying to Deal with 3 kage level ninja.

Anbu stated his chakra has diminished, Wasting time trying to seal the Kages one at a time would of been pointless and be even more of a drain on his already diminished chakra levels.
He had no choice but to take all 3 down at once, Since if he failed the leaf would be destroyed and he couldn't take that risk.

 

[thegame]

fair point with the tsunade thing i just though hashi would be stronger

if you watch the anime and read the manga you see that he had no choice he couldnt do anything else the only thing he could do was use a move that was guaranteed to work ...but it kills you in return he failed to take orochimaru with him also - he knows over 1k jutsus so why does he just come up with a plan better than killing himself

1st of all, the death reaper seal is the strongest, as I already explained. So he wouldn't have another jutsu more effective than this one. I will say that if he took down the 2 former kages and Orochimaru with another jutsu it would mess up the story, and if he took down Oro with the seal as well that had messed up the story as well. I could argue that it had been better if he had just sealed Orochimaru, and sealed the arms of the 2 kages, but meh it's a story and it needs a plot. Also there is a huge importance about that seal throughout the manga, and I think we will see or hear more about it again.

Another important factor is his feelings for his former student. Now I am making some far fetched assumptions, but I honestly don't think Hiruzen would have wanted to live knowing that he killed his student. He probably saw it as the best way, for him to accept his fate and live with himself afterwards. After all Orochimaru was probably Hiruzens largest mistake, and we know how he couldn't kill him the last time they met because of his feelings. Oro even said he should have killed him back then.

And there is one more huge and very important factor to the death reaper seal. Oro didn't know it, and that was perhaps the real reason why he lost. If he had known what sort of seal Hiru was using, he would have made more distance to the kages, or he wouldn't have let Hashi use the eternal darkness jutsu. But ability to surprise your opponent is probably the strongest and most determining factor of every fight in Naruto, as well as in 1000 other mangas..

Because he chakra to Mess around trying to Deal with 3 kage level ninja.

Anbu stated his chakra has diminished, Wasting time trying to seal the Kages one at a time would of been pointless and be even more of a drain on his already diminished chakra levels.
He had no choice but to take all 3 down at once, Since if he failed the leaf would be destroyed and he couldn't take that risk.

Or just this ^^

 

[LegendaryAce]

1st of all, the death reaper seal is the strongest, as I already explained. So he wouldn't have another jutsu more effective than this one. I will say that if he took down the 2 former kages and Orochimaru with another jutsu it would mess up the story, and if he took down Oro with the seal as well that had messed up the story as well. I could argue that it had been better if he had just sealed Orochimaru, and sealed the arms of the 2 kages, but meh it's a story and it needs a plot. Also there is a huge importance about that seal throughout the manga, and I think we will see or hear more about it again.

Another important factor is his feelings for his former student. Now I am making some far fetched assumptions, but I honestly don't think Hiruzen would have wanted to live knowing that he killed his student. He probably saw it as the best way, for him to accept his fate and live with himself afterwards. After all Orochimaru was probably Hiruzens largest mistake, and we know how he couldn't kill him the last time they met because of his feelings. Oro even said he should have killed him back then.

And there is one more huge and very important factor to the death reaper seal. Oro didn't know it, and that was perhaps the real reason why he lost. If he had known what sort of seal Hiru was using, he would have made more distance to the kages, or he wouldn't have let Hashi use the eternal darkness jutsu. But ability to surprise your opponent is probably the strongest and most determining factor of every fight in Naruto, as well as in 1000 other mangas..



Or just this ^^

let me ask answer the outcomes by your opinion (bear in mind there is no emotions holding them back)

hiruzen vs tobirama
hiruzen vs hashirama
hiruzen vs hashi and tobirama
hiruzen vs orochimaru
hiruzen vs all 3

bear in mind they are non edo and can use all their hyped techs and what we've seen

 

[Shisui Namikaze]

I just think kishi didn't think far enough yet with hiruzen. With the hype that hashirama is getting now there is no way in hell that old hiruzen soulf have been able to take him oro and Tobirama on. It's ridiculous.

 

[thegame]

let me ask answer the outcomes by your opinion (bear in mind there is no emotions holding them back)

hiruzen vs tobirama
hiruzen vs hashirama
hiruzen vs hashi and tobirama
hiruzen vs orochimaru
hiruzen vs all 3

bear in mind they are non edo and can use all their hyped techs and what we've seen

Well if I must, I will once again refer to my first thread, where I said that you cannot bring stuff from after the time-skip into stuff that comes from before, and I did make arguments for this, so to make a fair comparison, you'd have to use evidence from before the time-skip alone since Hiruzen is the only one of the 4 that has been shown after the time-skip, and all the others have rumors or direct power-ups that have been shown after the time-skip.

So using this you should be able to determine the outcomes. Don't get me wrong, I never said Hiruzen was stronger than the 1st hokage in terms of overall power as a shinobi, I just said his muscle strength were a lot a greater, or at least that is what the manga says. I still think Hiruzen is smarter than all 3, and that he has more jutsu at his disposal, however, Hiruzen has no unique jutsu, and even though he knows a lot of forbidden jutsu, it's not something he would use without ease. So if he takes down all 3 at once with the death reaper seal, sure it will be a tie, but if you tie those 3, you are certainly also at the level of any of them in a 1v1, and I would say - using only evidence from before the time-skip, then Hiruzen would also win in a 1v1 against any of them without edo tensei dolls..

 

[huzaifa555]

hands down its been stated in manga that hasi and tobirma were playing with sarutobi.

 

[LegendaryAce]

Well if I must, I will once again refer to my first thread, where I said that you cannot bring stuff from after the time-skip into stuff that comes from before, and I did make arguments for this, so to make a fair comparison, you'd have to use evidence from before the time-skip alone since Hiruzen is the only one of the 4 that has been shown after the time-skip, and all the others have rumors or direct power-ups that have been shown after the time-skip.

So using this you should be able to determine the outcomes. Don't get me wrong, I never said Hiruzen was stronger than the 1st hokage in terms of overall power as a shinobi, I just said his muscle strength were a lot a greater, or at least that is what the manga says. I still think Hiruzen is smarter than all 3, and that he has more jutsu at his disposal, however, Hiruzen has no unique jutsu, and even though he knows a lot of forbidden jutsu, it's not something he would use without ease. So if he takes down all 3 at once with the death reaper seal, sure it will be a tie, but if you tie those 3, you are certainly also at the level of any of them in a 1v1, and I would say - using only evidence from before the time-skip, then Hiruzen would also win in a 1v1 against any of them without edo tensei dolls..

good read i shall give u rep .. i think hashirama and tobirama could beat him but thats my opinion

 

[thegame]

good read i shall give u rep .. i think hashirama and tobirama could beat him but thats my opinion

Thanks, and I can't see why they shouldn't be able to, but it's not always the stronger shinobi that wins. Neither does it has to be the smarter shinobi. But these 2 factors are what almost everybody takes as the determining factors of how versus threads end. But in Naruto it is an entirely different story, and this goes for EVERY battle.

So as I see it, it is more a matter of how you define, what makes a shinobi stronger than another.If I must give a good example of a highly underrated person it is Hidan.

If you have no idea about his ability and how it works, your chances of winning - even if you are a lot stronger than him, they will become very slim. But people always assume that this is know. Even Minato would risk a small scratch from someones nails, if it allowed him to deal a fatal blow to the enemy, there is no doubt about that. But that would determine the battle for Hidan.

 

[KingHashirama]

Kabuto is better and the third would have no chance if it was Kabuto and not oro

Cause Kabuto can use Edos better. And if you summon a Edo to defeat someone, you basically stating you can't beat that person on your own.

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look at the difference between the picture

Thats why I stated Hashirama and Tobirama were Playing around.. not they were willingly playing around.. but as in the power they used.

People usually say, Sarutobi "beat" Edo Hashirama and Tobirama .. right?? But I kind of find even that bullshit, because Tobirama and HAshirama were playing around with Sarutobi ;x And screwed up Sarutobi really bad. And forced him to use a suicide move. Meaning he didn't beat anyone really.. instead killed himself, cause he couldn't beat them =D. The paper bomb part was a joke to edos.. Its like saying Tsunade beat Madara because she ripped half of his body.. lmao.

Plus the power levels in part. 1 and part. 2 was way different and kishi wanted to portray hurizen as beast mode b4 his bitch ass died -_-
Hashi solos if they both fight now tobirama would just go swimming lml
Edo Hashirama and Tobirama screwed up Sarutobi. ^_^. Only weak person in that fight was Oro. [/Q

Orochimaru isn't weak what u mean -_____-
Think about what he did to 4 tailed naruto with out hands and was sick in need of changing a body

Now he should've did tht to hurizen and when him and Jariya + tsunade was fighting 10,000 snakes at once all with blades coming out of there mouth(just 1 of the things he did)

Oro is weak... He couldn't have beat Sarutobi.. (which explains the summoning of the Edos). Dude.. one dead body that Nagato controlled was taking on a 8-tails.. lol.

When you and Jiraya + tsunade were fighting 10,000 snakes??

kishi didn't think that far ahead with hashirama i guess.

He didn't have to... The edos didn't even struggle..... They just did jutsus and stood there while Oro and Sarutobi talked.

someone who gets it right basically it was way early in the show tobira and hashi werent fully developed

Then Sarutobi would've been dead. The thing is it showed the difference between Kabuto's edo and Oro's edo. And also, the edos didn't do much at all. . For example, they stood there while Oro and Saru talked

Tobirama and Hashirama couldn't have been that far ahead of Hiruzen since they got fatal injuries from the explosion tags, when toying you shouldn't really let that happen. The 70 year old man still solo'd.

They wouldn't have gotten fatal injuries were they themselves .. They don't have to worry about the explosive tags because they are Edos. By toying I mean they didn't even use their strongest attacks, and they stood their whenever Oro and Sarutobi talked. The 69 year old man Solo'd Oro basically.. Since the edos went smiling and without any struggle =]

 

[LegendaryAce]

Thanks, and I can't see why they shouldn't be able to, but it's not always the stronger shinobi that wins. Neither does it has to be the smarter shinobi. But these 2 factors are what almost everybody takes as the determining factors of how versus threads end. But in Naruto it is an entirely different story, and this goes for EVERY battle.

So as I see it, it is more a matter of how you define, what makes a shinobi stronger than another.If I must give a good example of a highly underrated person it is Hidan.

If you have no idea about his ability and how it works, your chances of winning - even if you are a lot stronger than him, they will become very slim. But people always assume that this is know. Even Minato would risk a small scratch from someones nails, if it allowed him to deal a fatal blow to the enemy, there is no doubt about that. But that would determine the battle for Hidan.

yes but ive always asked someone give me a scene on how hiruzen can beat hashirama no one has done it before - but if u list every jutsu they are said to have and judge by elements then you see hashirama has more man power and i think by brains they are about as smart as each other ..and we still don't know what other techs hash could have had in his scroll he hid also hiruzen might not has counters for techs used as madara and if hashirama were to use mokuton clones then that fight might be a different issue

but of course that's one of the scenarios that could happen.