[Discussion] Theses are the 7 People that Defeated Kaido

[Punk Hazard]

I didn't say he did, I said what do you call two people when one of 'em's driving factor is to be stronger than the other to get revenge? Also objectively, any pirate seeking the One Piece is a rival of one another. Subjectively, they're not really rivals since as far as we know there was only the one altercation and a rivalry typically is a multiple occurrence situation.

The word for that is grudge, not rivalry. Like I said before, malice=rivalry. It's only a rivalry when you can actually rival them.

OBJECTIVELY, a rivalry is two or more people within the same or similar fields actively competing with one another on a close level. This is not the case for Moriah and Kaido.

 

[chopstickchakra]

The word for that is grudge, not rivalry. Like I said before, malice=rivalry. It's only a rivalry when you can actually rival them.

OBJECTIVELY, a rivalry is two or more people within the same or similar fields actively competing with one another on a close level. This is not the case for Moriah and Kaido.

See though the "on a close level" bit is subjective though. The actual definition of the word only says to compete for superiority in the same field, it doesn't say it has to be even to be a rivalry. There's been a few sport rivalries that are one sided, Tito vs Shamrock is a rivalry but Ken lost all 3 times badly. As long as you have two sides continuously fighting with one trying to be better than the other than that's objectively a rivalry. Neji and Lee were rivals but Lee didn't think he could beat Neji.

One sided rivalries;

You must be registered for see links

I would argue until we know Moriah actually fought him more than once it's not a rivalry it's just a grudge but if he had multiple fights before losing his crew then yeah by definition of the word Kaido is Moriah's rival.

 

[Hellioncurse]

For one, these questions don't answer my question.

I would say no they aren't rivals because Kaido and Big Mom are in a tier above them. They don't have the strength to rival Kaido. For the moment, they are just competition. But not enough competition to be rivals.

This, however, doesn't answer my question because Moriah and Luffy aren't actively competing with each other. So now you still have to answer my question: Were Moriah and Luffy rivals on Thriller Bark?

It would have answered your question but you like going in circles.

Weak Or Strong? Win Or Loss? Their Goal is one and they have to fight over it and the weak one will perish in the process and it should be considered as rivalry.

I would have written more and give more examples but since this is a trivial matter, i'll try and keep it as simple as possible.

For me to answer your question? I need to know what according to you is Actively Competing?

I consider Luffy and Blackbeard to be rivals..

But I don't consider Blackbeard and Ace to be rivals..

Yet the same thing they said about Moriah and Kaido can be said for them..

"I heard that Ace was tough enough to go toe-to-toe against Blackbeard, one of the four Pirate Emperors."


You see now?



A good example of what could be a "rival" for Kaido would be someone who also wants to have a pirate crew of only Zoan users..


There's hundreds of Pirates out there that want to find the One Piece and become the new Pirate King, so do you consider th[/B][/GLOW]em ALL to be rivals of eachother?

Idk.. I think you guys are taking the definition of "rival" too literal here.

@Bold I can't take you seriously after this? That is one bad example. Why? No one else is going or will be going for Zoan army but yes, almost everyone is going for the Pirate King title(One piece).

Still here I am, typing.

I don't care if they went toe to toe or not? Kindly do stop referring to that example again.

Ace example was very bad example? He fought to avenge his nakama? And Gecko fought so he will be one step closer to PK Title and for the Superiority? Go check the manga again before you come at me.

Then why do you consider Luffy and BB as Rivals? They barely fought once?

And yes, anyone who will fight for the PK Title will be considered rivals and they'll have to fight over/for it.

You should know, definition of Rival will not change to your standard of grasping things.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Kaido can't even beat old WB.

How can old WB beat Kaido his strongest bloodlusted punch in his that form failed to put Akainu down. Kaido who is more durable tanks that same punch with less effort and proceed to put the smack down on the old man.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Garp
Sengoku
WhiteBeard
Shanks
Geko Moriah


These are the only people I would think have defeated Kiado based on information from the Manga.

You think Kaido lost to Moriah? That makes 0 sense since Moriah went on and on about how tough/strong Kaido was. Plus Moriah was even weaker back then. Not to mention Kaido is responsible for the deaths of Moriah originals crew.

 

[chopstickchakra]

You think Kaido lost to Moriah? That makes 0 sense since Moriah went on and on about how tough/strong Kaido was. Plus Moriah was even weaker back then. Not to mention Kaido is responsible for the deaths of Moriah originals crew.

You could actually argue that Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaido because he hadn't become complacent with his powers

 

[Skull Knight]

You could actually argue that Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaido because he hadn't become complacent with his powers

Kaido was defeated by Yonkos and Marines Admirals(most probably).

You must be registered for see images

Moriah doesnot fit in that descriptionkool:

 

[Punk Hazard]

You think Kaido lost to Moriah? That makes 0 sense since Moriah went on and on about how tough/strong Kaido was. Plus Moriah was even weaker back then. Not to mention Kaido is responsible for the deaths of Moriah originals crew.

Moriah was stronger then.

 

[Nox]

The problem here is that from what we know about Kaido and Moriah, they very well may not meet this criteria.

In order for them to be competing for the title of Pirate King, they have to actively be trying to outdo each other. Fighting one time and going toe to toe that one time doesn't make them actively competing against one another, it simply means they fought once and Kaido then surpassed him. Kaido meeting Moriah one time and defeating Moriah one time isn't an active competition. By your logic, Crocodile and Whitebeard were rivals because Crocodile tried to assert his superiority over Whitebeard in the world of piracy and retains a grudge/malice over it.

Let me ask you this, do you consider Luffy and Moriah to have been rivals on Thriller Bark?

1. Individuals who partake in piracy and have made it known their intention to claim a singular goal are rivals.
2. One party acknowledging the other and making an active effort to surpass the other is a rivalry.
3. Aforementioned pirate quality being such that actuality/perception on them is split in the middle are rivals.

There's at least three layers of what 'Rival' might be used to infer in One Piece. However, a rivalry can only be sustained by the quality of both participants. It would both facetious and fallacious to claim that quality to be the sole determinant. Doing so limits the argument of debate to a one dimensional (battle/strength) and two way (2 parties) involvement which is precisely what your the bold statement infers.

Crocodile acknowledged Whitebeard as a rival yet the latter simply fails to do so to him. It doesn't cease to be a rivalry. It is in this mold that we find the crux of battles and non-strength rivalries rooted it.

Moriah was building an army or zombies to go enact revenge on Kaido supplanting him and making strives to claim One Piece. He was powerful enough to match/outmatch the SH crew with his own. Idealistically he believes in relying on others to use them attain his goals. On the other hand we have Luffy who opposes him in ideals, can match him in power and aims to usurp him to proceed his journey to claim One Piece. How is Thriller-Bark Luffy not his rival? ***Forget Nightmare Luffy who was paired against Oars.

I'm sorry for quoting you on a forum where people quote other members to discuss topics.

Sarcastic as you intended to be I found it baffling to quote me asking the questions that Riker had posses two posts ago. All the whil ignoring the context of the message was answering the very thing he sought to quote me for.

Basically this argument was akin to me having said at one point Lemon = Oranges. To which Riker says not really since Orange is consistently sweeter. I go ahead and break it down stating my argument is that both are citrus fruits, have seeds and AT ONE POINT IN TIME SHARE THE SAME COLOR PALATE AND TASTE.

To which you then quote me again telling me not really since orange is sweeter!

You must be registered for see images

But I do want to see your answer to Riker's last question.. do you consider Moriah and Luffy to be "rivals"?

Yeah. The response is above.

Do you consider Whitebeard and Akainu to be rivals?

Because Akainu and Whitebeard were both fighting for the same goals? Have both have been stated in the manga to be comparable in strength?

See if you'd only read the original post your quoted before you wouldn't be here asking this. Before you use the strength rivalry WB's only rival has been stated to be Rodger. Even in sickness and old age verbatim he prevented others from claiming the throne. Don't compare apples and oranges. We the fans saw Old WB and Akainu (both who were restrained lest they destroy their allies) go toe to toe. This is vastly different that W.O.G using the term i.e using Buggy to say WB is the only one who could match Rodger or having a random saying Moriah went toe to toe with Kaido at whatever day/age.

How about Blackbeard and Ace? Were they rivals as well?

Yes. Their methods of piracy were also diametrically opposed. One disloyal. The other faithful. However, if were In terms of strength both were neither stated, reputed, portrayed to be equal. Ace dismissal of the PK title doesn't overwrites him as BB's rival difference is his rivalry comes as proxy to WB's claim.

 

[Skull Knight]

Moriah was stronger then.

that's BS.

 

[Nox]

Moriah was stronger then.

TB Luffy fought Oars got kicked across the island. Ingested the souls of 100 (can't recall the exact figure) came back to fight Oars. Beat him, fought Moriah. Cornered Moriah ingested 1000 souls becomes Asgardian a from which he could snap Thriller Bark. Yet, Luffy proceeds proceeded to OS. TB Moriah on the other hand relied on Kagemusha to survive the one shot and Oars to do majority of the work on SH. You could argue Moriah's form Asgard had greater DC but we know Luffy has great affinity for blunt attacks hence why he could handle the mode. Now, lets remove Oars from the picture and tell me how Moriah is stronger?

 

[Punk Hazard]

that's BS.

TB Luffy fought Oars got kicked across the island. Ingested the souls of 100 (can't recall the exact figure) came back to fight Oars. Beat him, fought Moriah. Cornered Moriah ingested 1000 souls becomes Asgardian a from which he could snap Thriller Bark. Yet, Luffy proceeds proceeded to OS. TB Moriah on the other hand relied on Kagemusha to survive the one shot and Oars to do majority of the work on SH. You could argue Moriah's form Asgard had greater DC but we know Luffy has great affinity for blunt attacks hence why he could handle the mode. Now, lets remove Oars from the picture and tell me how Moriah is stronger?

He got weaker because he stopped training and kept focusing on using others for his powers.

 

[Hellioncurse]

1. Individuals who partake in piracy and have made it known their intention to claim a singular goal are rivals.
2. One party acknowledging the other and making an active effort to surpass the other is a rivalry.
3. Aforementioned pirate quality being such that actuality/perception on them is split in the middle are rivals.

There's at least three layers of what 'Rival' might be used to infer in One Piece. However, a rivalry can only be sustained by the quality of both participants. It would both facetious and fallacious to claim that quality to be the sole determinant. Doing so limits the argument of debate to a one dimensional (battle/strength) and two way (2 parties) involvement which is precisely what your the bold statement infers.

Crocodile acknowledged Whitebeard as a rival yet the latter simply fails to do so to him. It doesn't cease to be a rivalry. It is in this mold that we find the crux of battles and non-strength rivalries rooted it.

Moriah was building an army or zombies to go enact revenge on Kaido supplanting him and making strives to claim One Piece. He was powerful enough to match/outmatch the SH crew with his own. Idealistically he believes in relying on others to use them attain his goals. On the other hand we have Luffy who opposes him in ideals, can match him in power and aims to usurp him to proceed his journey to claim One Piece. How is Thriller-Bark Luffy not his rival? ***Forget Nightmare Luffy who was paired against Oars.



Sarcastic as you intended to be I found it baffling to quote me asking the questions that Riker had posses two posts ago. All the whil ignoring the context of the message was answering the very thing he sought to quote me for.

Basically this argument was akin to me having said at one point Lemon = Oranges. To which Riker says not really since Orange is consistently sweeter. I go ahead and break it down stating my argument is that both are citrus fruits, have seeds and AT ONE POINT IN TIME SHARE THE SAME COLOR PALATE AND TASTE.

To which you then quote me again telling me not really since orange is sweeter!

You must be registered for see images

Yeah. The response is above.



Because Akainu and Whitebeard were both fighting for the same goals? Have both have been stated in the manga to be comparable in strength?

See if you'd only read the original post your quoted before you wouldn't be here asking this. Before you use the strength rivalry WB's only rival has been stated to be Rodger. Even in sickness and old age verbatim he prevented others from claiming the throne. Don't compare apples and oranges. We the fans saw Old WB and Akainu (both who were restrained lest they destroy their allies) go toe to toe. This is vastly different that W.O.G using the term i.e using Buggy to say WB is the only one who could match Rodger or having a random saying Moriah went toe to toe with Kaido at whatever day/age.



Yes. Their methods of piracy were also diametrically opposed. One disloyal. The other faithful. However, if were In terms of strength both were neither stated, reputed, portrayed to be equal. Ace dismissal of the PK title doesn't overwrites him as BB's rival difference is his rivalry comes as proxy to WB's claim.

He can't comprehend stuff, not his problem.

Shakky did say Luffy that all the other rookies/supernovas landed on Sabondy is Luffy's rival? Too lazy to post the manga panel.

But what really amuses me is they never saw each other before? let alone fight with each other? Never did they actively compete with each other and nor were they equal in strength? But still considered rivals. Why? Cos their Goal was same.

It's not Shakky? That is what Oda believes as rivalry. : )

 

[Skull Knight]

He got weaker because he stopped training and kept focusing on using others for his powers.

thats doesn't prove that he could have beaten a guy who basically jumped from the sky and landed without any injury.

 

[pop123]

Re: These are the 7 People that Defeated Kaido

I feel like out of the 7 times, a couple of them were from the same person/people.. not 7 times = 7 different people/fights..

So on that note, my opinions are..




I doubt it..



Highly possible..



I seriously doubt it..



I highly doubt it..



Very possible..



I highly doubt it..



Maybe..



You put Rayleigh on here, but not Whitebeard?

How is WB not on this list? lol

I got a question who is akianu

 

[Nox]

He can't comprehend stuff, not his problem.

Shakky did say Luffy that all the other rookies/supernovas landed on Sabondy is Luffy's rival? Too lazy to post the manga panel.

But what really amuses me is they never saw each other before? let alone fight with each other? Never did they actively compete with each other and nor were they equal in strength? But still considered rivals. Why? Cos their Goal was same.

It's not Shakky? That is what Oda believes as rivalry. : )

Absolutely. The idea of rivalry has nothing to with the recognition of both parties to it as such. Neither does it have to be strength or quality. It all boils down to a difference Ideals, History, Interpersonality all while aiming for the same goal present.

He got weaker because he stopped training and kept focusing on using others for his powers.

Nice response. Guess what when this happened Kaido grew strong enough that he become reputed a monster that shouldn't be bet against. Fiction with battle elements have composite, interval (arc) and overall versions of characters.

Toe to Toe Moriah cannot be argued with current Kaido and aforementioned Moriah is not TB Moriah.

We cannot tweak the ideal/idea rival because Moriah decided to become a spineless.

You must be registered for see images

 

[WhistleBlower]

What about Kong? He looks like he'd rip another a-hole in anyone with 1 finger. Call it a advanced version of shigan.

Forgot who he is? Look below noob.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

​

 

[chopstickchakra]

Kaido was defeated by Yonkos and Marines Admirals(most probably).

You must be registered for see images

Moriah doesnot fit in that descriptionkool:

What are you talking about that has nothing to do with what I said. Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaidou then when he fought Luffy.

 

[Skull Knight]

What are you talking about that has nothing to do with what I said. Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaidou then when he fought Luffy.

Can I see the manga scan where it is written that Moria was stronger than Kaido?
The scan where fodder said he went toe to toe against Kaido doesnot mean he was stronger than Kaido and let's not forget that fodders normally exaggerate Main characters/villains.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Can I see the manga scan where it is written that Moria was stronger than Kaido?
The scan where fodder said he went toe to toe against Kaido doesnot mean he was stronger than Kaido and let's not forget that fodders normally exaggerate Main characters/villains.

You're just bringing up your own points, I never said him going toe to toe with Kaido made him stronger than Kaido and I never said he was stronger than Kaido. I think you read my words wrong, I'm saying Moriah was stronger when he fought Kaido than he was in TB.