Punk Hazard
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He actually said that he heard Moriah went toe-to-toe with Kaido, nothing as concrete as what that scan suggests.
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It's definitely possible though.
[Discussion] Theses are the 7 People that Defeated Kaido
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It's definitely possible though.
I mean it boils down to translation/scantlation source. At the heart of it all is that Kaido and Moriah (true or rumored) rivaled each other. Though, it got me thinking if warlords share history with OG Yonko; Shanks (Mihawk), Kaido (Moriah), Old WB (Crocodile) will MUM get one as well. (inb4 Hancock).
Punk Hazard
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Not at all. That's the Viz translation, so it's the best one around. Luffy and Crocodile went toe to toe with each other at Alabasta, would you call them rivals? How do you know the situation here isn't the same?
rival - noun -plural noun: rivals
1. A person or thing competing with another for the same objective or for superiority in the same field of activity.
"he has no serious rival for the job"
synonyms: competitor, opponent, contestant, contender, challenger; More
rival - verb
1. Be or seem to be equal or comparable to.
For a moment stop focusing on the tree and you'll see the forest. Both translations are implying Kaido and Moriah were once peers only varying in legitimacy ( one rumor vs other reality). Originally, the idea was to make a educated guess on who is bears likely hood on having bested Kaido. The situation behind the loss is as irrelevant as his or his opponents supposed level. If we are to make Luffy's L count, Crocodile appears on the list (twice in fact) as for the duration of Alabasta he was indeed Luffy's rival. Manga-wise Moriah is the only other enemy who Oda saw fit to contrast his battle prowess to.
"I heard that Moriah was tough enough to go toe-to toe with Kaido"
It doesn't sound like a rivalry when they said that..
Many characters have gone "toe-to-toe" against other characters and were "tough enough" to fight certain people.. but that doesn't make them all rivals.
Why quote me just to explain the very thing me and Riker were talking about all while ignoring the message presented?
Being someones rival doesn't mean he/she has to acknowledge you as such. The mere idea that one party was comparable (in whatever context) to the other AND/OR strove for a for a similar goal makes you rivals. Which is why Buggy sees Shanks as a rival of his.
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Punk Hazard
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Nope, you're only rivals when you are consistently posing as competition for each towards the same goal. Fighting toe-to-toe with each other one time isn't a rivalry.
If Kaido and Moriah consistently fought each other toe to toe, then they're rivals. But you don't know that they were, and that one dude's statement doesn't confirm it.
True. If we were speaking Riker's English you would be more than correct. However, Oxford and just about every other English outlet including Oda himself you a message back to qualify as a rival all you need is
1. Be competing with another for the same objective (Pirate King)
1.2 Be competing with another for superiority in the same field of activity. (Piracy)
1.3 A person or thing that equals another in quality (Rumoured to have gone toe to toe against)***
2. Be or seem to be equal or comparable to. (Rumoured to have gone toe to toe against)
*** As for this definition, I was/am honest enough to acknowledge Kaido's rival peers are Yonkos/Admirals which is why I mentioned Moriah as a past rival. All for the sole reason of legitimating him as one of the seven. Before anyone comes with a fallacious argument. The quality of the Kaido in relation to the seven in unrevealed. So once again you see Moriah WAS the text book definition of a rival. In OP rivalries are often entrenched in both parties having history and one of them having sustained malice/objection. These rivalries come in the form strength, ideals, fame etc. Which is why Oda has Cavendish views Supernova as rivals (Fame), Kidd to Luffy (Fame) or Buggy's to Shanks (Ideals), Mihawk to Shanks (Strength). Fans are the ones who project their perception of what rivalries should be solely strength based. Again Moriah as per the rumor USED TO qualify.
EDIT: This is gonna go one forever bruh.
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Punk Hazard
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The problem here is that from what we know about Kaido and Moriah, they very well may not meet this criteria.
In order for them to be competing for the title of Pirate King, they have to actively be trying to outdo each other. Fighting one time and going toe to toe that one time doesn't make them actively competing against one another, it simply means they fought once and Kaido then surpassed him. Kaido meeting Moriah one time and defeating Moriah one time isn't an active competition. By your logic, Crocodile and Whitebeard were rivals because Crocodile tried to assert his superiority over Whitebeard in the world of piracy and retains a grudge/malice over it.
Let me ask you this, do you consider Luffy and Moriah to have been rivals on Thriller Bark?
I'm sorry for quoting you on a forum where people quote other members to discuss topics.
But I do want to see your answer to Riker's last question.. do you consider Moriah and Luffy to be "rivals"?
Do you consider Whitebeard and Akainu to be rivals?
How about Blackbeard and Ace? Were they rivals as well?
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Hellioncurse
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I don't understand what is the argument all about? When Bino clearly stated in his latest post that he considered Gecko as a rival of Kaido but of the past. And he can still be considered as Kaido's rival since he is competing for the Pirate King? Even all the Supernovas and whoever is competing for the Pirate King will be considered as Kaido's Rival.
Other than that, Kaido didn't defeat Moria. He obliterated him and his entire crew. The result is a warlord with remaining psychological trauma who'd rather have servants he doesn't need to form attachments to. All that should be seen in a crewmate is what they can provide. He's been down the other path, and it ended horribly.
Other than that, Kaido didn't defeat Moria. He obliterated him and his entire crew. The result is a warlord with remaining psychological trauma who'd rather have servants he doesn't need to form attachments to. All that should be seen in a crewmate is what they can provide. He's been down the other path, and it ended horribly.
I, personally, don't see this as an "argument" but just a discussion bro..
I'm just curious as to why Bino insists that they were rivals, when the Viz scan Riker provided doesn't portray that at all.. lol
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Punk Hazard
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Then I direct my question to you as well. Do you think Luffy and Moriah were rivals on Thriller Bark?
Do you think Akainu and Whitebeard were rivals?
ArabianLuffy
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Simply put, Kaidou wouldn't be as what he is now without loss. No pain, no gain. I would say he's been defeated and captured by more than seven people.
Hellioncurse
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Well they should be considered as rivals since once they fought for the superiority and are still fighting for the Pirate King title?
And the Manga panel Riker provided? Is debatable whether or not Gecko went toe to toe with Kaidou Or not?
I have a question of my own to answer that? Do you not believe Luffy and Kaidou are Rivals? Do you not consider the Supernova's as Kaido's and Big Mom's rival?
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Punk Hazard
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For one, these questions don't answer my question.
I would say no they aren't rivals because Kaido and Big Mom are in a tier above them. They don't have the strength to rival Kaido. For the moment, they are just competition. But not enough competition to be rivals.
This, however, doesn't answer my question because Moriah and Luffy aren't actively competing with each other. So now you still have to answer my question: Were Moriah and Luffy rivals on Thriller Bark?
I consider Luffy and Blackbeard to be rivals..
But I don't consider Blackbeard and Ace to be rivals..
Yet the same thing they said about Moriah and Kaido can be said for them..
"I heard that Ace was tough enough to go toe-to-toe against Blackbeard, one of the four Pirate Emperors."
You see now?
A good example of what could be a "rival" for Kaido would be someone who also wants to have a pirate crew of only Zoan users..
There's hundreds of Pirates out there that want to find the One Piece and become the new Pirate King, so do you consider them ALL to be rivals of eachother?
Idk.. I think you guys are taking the definition of "rival" too literal here.
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chopstickchakra
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Kiado(and us readers) may not see Moriah as his rival but Moriah sees Kaidou as a rival since he's primarily focused on getting strong enough for revenge. What would you call someone who's sole intent is to beat you?
Punk Hazard
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1. When did Moriah say he was Kaido's rival?
2. I don't give a damn what Moriah thinks. I care about whether or not he is or isn't objectively.
Malice=/=rivalry.
chopstickchakra
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I didn't say he did, I said what do you call two people when one of 'em's driving factor is to be stronger than the other to get revenge? Also objectively, any pirate seeking the One Piece is a rival of one another. Subjectively, they're not really rivals since as far as we know there was only the one altercation and a rivalry typically is a multiple occurrence situation.