[Theory] The Rinnegan Was Not Yet Fully Awakened When Madara Initially Awoke It

[Hori]

So if the Rinnegan was not awaken when Madara summoned Gedo so one doesn't need rinnegan to summon gedo mazo

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

So if the Rinnegan was not awaken when Madara summoned Gedo so one doesn't need rinnegan to summon gedo mazo

The Rinnegan per se was awakened, but its' full powers were not, hence, the need for Nagato to awaken uts' full powers.

 

[captainEO]

you forgot something....what madara was saying, was even if OBITO didnt unlock HIS OWN RINNEGAN(as he has bothe UCHIHA AND SENJU cells) MAdara was refereing to the gedo being able to be controlled without rinnegan. Madara went like 50 years with senju dna and uchiha dna. Yet it took him that long to unlock rinnegan.


So a more accurate translation/understanding, would be "dont worry obito, even if you dont unlock your own rinnegan, you can still control the gedo"

Madara had already fully awakened his own rinnegan.

This. He was referring to Obito acquiring his own Rinnegan (singular).

I.e. [paraphrased] in the case that you awaken MS (if he hadn't already at the point), and you subsequently unlock EMS, you'll eventually attain Rinnegan (since he had Senju DNA). But if that doesn't occur, it's okay because you still have Senju makeup which can help you control the Gedo Mazo.

Rinnegan was always fully unlocked i.e. it had no limitations whatsoever.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

This. He was referring to Obito acquiring his own Rinnegan (singular).

I.e. [paraphrased] in the case that you awaken MS (if he hadn't already at the point), and you subsequently unlock EMS, you'll eventually attain Rinnegan (since he had Senju DNA). But if that doesn't occur, it's okay because you still have Senju makeup which can help you control the Gedo Mazo.

Rinnegan was always fully unlocked i.e. it had no limitations whatsoever.

No it was not fully unlocked, Nagato fully awakened it for Madara, thus the need to implant it on him. That is why it took decades before commencing the Eye of the Moon Plan.

 

[captainEO]

No it was not fully unlocked, Nagato fully awakened it for Madara, thus the need to implant it on him. That is why it took decades before commencing the Eye of the Moon Plan.

Nah, I think you've misinterpreted things.

Nagato offers nothing to Madara that he didn't already have. He had 3 things to make Nagato redundant:

1. Senju DNA (within himself)
2. Zetsu clones (that were completely made of Senju cells)
3. Obito (half Senju basically). [He came later but he could have taken his eyes back from Nagato and given them to Obito instead]

Nagato offered nothing unique that could awaken Rinnegan further. Additionally, Nagato had zero Uchiha DNA

It would be redundant to have Obito take the eyes from Nagato, not to mention that it would be a waste of Obito's eyes (who had MS at that point I think) if here were to use them.

Which is why Madara let Nagato keep them but instructed Obito to manipulate Nagato and hone his skills so that he could be used in efforts to acquire all the bijuu (Juubi, Eye of the Moon), and so he'd revive Madara later down the line who'd been too old at that point to get the bijuu himself. It took a while because of the bijuu acquisition and for Nagato's skill level with the Rinnegan to increase to level great enough to revive Madara.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Nah, I think you've misinterpreted things.

Nagato offers nothing to Madara that he didn't already have. He had 3 things to make Nagato redundant:

1. Senju DNA (within himself)
2. Zetsu clones (that were completely made of Senju cells)
3. Obito (half Senju basically). [He came later but he could have taken his eyes back from Nagato and given them to Obito instead]

Nagato offered nothing unique that could awaken Rinnegan further. Additionally, Nagato had zero Uchiha DNA

It would be redundant to have Obito take the eyes from Nagato, not to mention that it would be a waste of Obito's eyes (who had MS at that point I think) if here were to use them.

Which is why Madara let Nagato keep them but instructed Obito to manipulate Nagato and hone his skills so that he could be used in efforts to acquire all the bijuu (Juubi, Eye of the Moon), and so he'd revive Madara later down the line who'd been too old at that point to get the bijuu himself. It took a while because of the bijuu acquisition and for Nagato's skill level with the Rinnegan to increase to level great enough to revive Madara.

It's not a waste of Obito's eyes since he replaces his left eye with substitute of sharingans so having the Rinnegan implanted on his left socket would entail no detriment to his MS Kamui, and the skill level of using the Rinnegan is not the point, the point is its' full powers were not awaken yet, and take note Madara's sentence when he spoke to Obito about awakening the Rinnegan, there was no distinguishing adjective "your" or "your own" if Madara was actually referring to Obito's potential of awakening his own Rinnegan, instead he referred to it as "the Rinnegan" which entails that the object in question was already in existence at the time Madara spoke it. So it's only logical to conclude that Madara was referring to the awakening of his Rinnegan, the one he gave to Nagato."

 

[captainEO]

It's not a waste of Obito's eyes since he replaces his left eye with substitute of sharingans so having the Rinnegan implanted on his left socket would entail no detriment to his MS Kamui

But it's either Nagato with Rinnegan AND Obito with MS (potentially Rinnegan) vs Shinobi Villages

OR just Obito with Rinnegan alone.

The first outcome is clearly better, it makes no sense to retrieve his eyes from Nagato 'cause it only thwarts his ambitions. And it would completely contradict all his efforts up until that point.

, and the skill level of using the Rinnegan is not the point, the point is its' full powers were not awaken yet, and take note Madara's sentence when he spoke to Obito about awakening the Rinnegan, there was no distinguishing adjective "your" or "your own" if Madara was actually referring to Obito's potential of awakening his own Rinnegan, instead he referred to it as "the Rinnegan" which entails that the object in question was already in existence at the time Madara spoke it. So it's only ligical to conclude Madara was referring to the awakening if his Rinnegan, the one he gave to Nagato."

Nagato couldn't use the Rinnegan very well when he was young (pre Hanzo fight), it took years for him to master it. It definitely had to do with honing his skills, at least it formed part of the reason.

Also, I think it's just the way Madara speaks, it's all fancy and elegant/grand. 'The Rinnegan' can still refer to the dojutsu in and of itself unrelated to anything else.

Nagato still offers nothing unique, why is he needed for it to advance further?

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

But it's either Nagato with Rinnegan AND Obito with MS (potentially Rinnegan) vs Shinobi Villages

OR just Obito with Rinnegan alone.

The first outcome is clearly better, it makes no sense to retrieve his eyes from Nagato 'cause it only thwarts his ambitions. And it would completely contradict all his efforts up until that point.



Nagato couldn't use the Rinnegan very well when he was young (pre Hanzo fight), it took years for him to master it. It definitely had to do with honing his skills, at least it formed part of the reason.

Also, I think it's just the way Madara speaks, it's all fancy and elegant/grand. 'The Rinnegan' can still refer to the dojutsu in and of itself unrelated to anything else.

Nagato still offers nothing unique, why is he needed for it to advance further?

He needed Nagato because he is an Uzumaki, you cannot downplay his Uzumaki Heritage's part in the Rinnegan's maturation, and tbh all evidences point to Rikudou Sennin being an Uzumaki, so it's only logical in terms of reverse engineering the Rinnegan that an Uzumaki host is the one to unlock its' full potential, and no it's not the fancy way of Madara saying it, it's simple grammatical and logical structure for him to say what he did in reference to the actual existing Rinnegan at that time which is his. There was no distinguishing adjective like "your" or "your own Rinnegan" or "another Rinnegan" when he spoke of it, thus ut is only logical to assume he is peaking of the already existing Rinnegan at that present time which is his.

 

[Disquiet]

"Although the eye of the samsara is not open, you should be able to handle this power." You translate this into: Although the (In Nagato's possession) rinnegan is not open, you should be able to handle the mazou. This implies that Nagato's awakening of the rinnegan would concrete Obito's control of the mazou. You're not making any sense. Stop trolling, Derp.

-_-

 

[captainEO]

He needed Nagato because he is an Uzumaki, you cannot downplay his Uzumaki Heritage's part in the Rinnegan's maturation, and tbh all evidences point to Rikudou Sennin being an Uzumaki, so it's only logical in terms of reverse engineering the Rinnegan that an Uzumaki host is the one to unlock its' full potential, and no it's not the fancy way of Madara saying it, it's simple grammatical and logical structure for him to say what he did in reference to the actual existing Rinnegan at that time which is his. There was no distinguishing adjective like "your" or "your own Rinnegan" or "another Rinnegan" when he spoke of it, thus ut is only logical to assume he is peaking of the already existing Rinnegan at that present time which is his.

I'll use your picture:

You must be registered for see images

Note how it begins: "You can't awaken the Rinnegan without having both the Uchiha's and Senju's powers"

"You" here either refers directly to Obito or acts as a general statement ('You' being anyone). Regardless, it supports my point either way.

Right afterwards, he goes on to say "And you can't handle the Mazou properly"
^Gedo Mazo is the subject here, which is what their entire conversation is about - controlling the Gedo Mazou.

"You" then immediately starts to refer directly to Obito, because he later becomes the subject with "Half of your body is made of Senju cells", [Senju cells are a prerequisite for Rinnegan]

"Even if YOU do not awaken Rinnegan, you can still control the Mazou", [controlling the Mazou with his Senju cells]

He's so referring to Obito

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I'll use your picture:

You must be registered for see images

Note how it begins: "You can't awaken the Rinnegan without having both the Uchiha's and Senju's powers"

"You" here either refers directly to Obito or acts as a general statement ('You' being anyone). Regardless, it supports my point either way.

Right afterwards, he goes on to say "And you can't handle the Mazou properly"
^Gedo Mazo is the subject here, which is what their entire conversation is about - controlling the Gedo Mazou.

"You" then immediately starts to refer directly to Obito, because he later becomes the subject with "Half of your body is made of Senju cells", [Senju cells are a prerequisite for Rinnegan]

"Even if YOU do not awaken Rinnegan, you can still control the Mazou", [controlling the Mazou with his Senju cells]

He's so referring to Obito

No Madara was referring to the process of the awakening of his own Rinnegan in the previous panel, he was merely referring to the similitude of Obito having both Senju and Uchiha DNA in his body in the next panel but it does not entail that Madara was also referring to the potentiality or lack thereof of Obito awakening his own Rinnegan. "You" in the previous panel is correctly interpreted as synonymous to "one" like for example "One must have both Senju and Uchiha DNA or One cannot control the Mazo properly" so he wasn't referring to Obito in the previous panel

 

[captainEO]

No Madara was referring to the process of the awakening of his own Rinnegan in the previous panel, he was merely referring to the similitude of Obito having both Senju and Uchiha DNA in his body in the next panel but it does not entail that Madara was also referring to the potentiality or lack thereof of Obito awakening his own Rinnegan. "You" in the previous panel is correctly interpreted as synonymous to "one" like for example "One must have both Senju and Uchiha DNA or One cannot control the Mazo properly" so he wasn't referring to Obito in the previous panel

Then how do you explain this:

Spoiler

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"Awakened them before my death"

Those eyes aren't the same pair Obito is currently using.
Yet, he's fully capable of using Rinnegan techniques, and has made no mention to it not being 'fully' awakened.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Then how do you explain this:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

"Awakened them before my death"

Those eyes aren't the same pair Obito is currently using.
Yet, he's fully capable of using Rinnegan techniques, and has made no mention to it not being 'fully' awakened.

You must take into account the feasibility of the time frame of awakening the Rinnegan, like it says in the panel Madara awakened it near the end of his life, which in that time he was already old and weak and could not use the full extent of the Rinnegan's powers due to senility, so to me it would be senseless and pointless for Madara to even suggest the possibility of Obito awakening his own Rinnegan in chapter 606 when Obito himself would be incapable of using it in his twilight years, it would be like saying "You can or cannot awaken your Rinnegan but if you do awaken it you'll already be old and weak to use it properly" which is absurd, so logically, the reference of the Rinnegan in 606 must be that of the actual existing Rinnegan at that time which is in the possession of Nagato. The awakening referred to the page you posted would refer to the "initial awakening" of the Rinnegan but not the "unlocking" of its' full potential.

 

[Disquiet]

which in that time he was already old and weak and could not use the full extent of the Rinnegan's powers due to senility

Is that so? xd

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Is that so? xd

Why yes, do you think otherwise? if so I couldn't agree with that premise sorry.

 

[Disquiet]

Why yes, do you think otherwise? if so I couldn't agree with that premise sorry.

Nope. I agree, he fully awakened the Rinnegan, but was too old to do what he wanted. xd

 

[captainEO]

xd I don't it should require that much effort to explain something if it really is the case.

You must take into account the feasibility of the time frame of awakening the Rinnegan, like it says in the panel Madara awakened it near the end of his life, which in that time he was already old and weak and could not use the full extent of the Rinnegan's powers due to senility, so to me it would be senseless and pointless for Madara to even suggest the possibility of Obito awakening his own Rinnegan in chapter 606 when Obito himself would be incapable of using it in his twilight years, it would be like saying "You can or cannot awaken your Rinnegan but if you do awaken it you'll already be old and weak to use it properly" which is absurd, so logically, the reference of the Rinnegan in 606 must be that of the actual existing Rinnegan at that time which is in the possession of Nagato.

But we aren't really sure of the factors that contributed to Madara only awakening those eyes later on in life.
Obito could awaken them in a shorter span of time, who's to say? I'm quite sure Madara insinuated that he could.

Finally, why would Madara ever allow for the possibility that Nagato would never awaken Rinnegan; "Even if you don't awaken the Rinnegan..."

Why would he let himself die if his revival is contingent on whether Nagato can revive him with Rinne Tensei in order to become the Juubi's jinchuriki?

That makes no sense.

The awakening referred to the page you posted would refer to the "initial awakening" of the Rinnegan but not the "unlocking" of its' full potential.

What would its full potential be? Madara is capable of using Rinnegan techniques, he's used it in several ways - meteors, chakra absorption, controlling the Juubi etc.
He hasn't implied any limitations on it whatsoever. Also, you can't use an argument revolving around the fact that he's yet to use all the jutsu we've seen Nagato perform because Obito has barely used any of those techniques himself. He makes no mention to his Rinnegan being inferior or partially awakened.


Anyway, I have to go to sleep now. We can carry on tomorrow.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

^ Because Madara had no choice, he needed to awaken the Rinnegan's Rinne Tensei, that's why he gave it to Nagato in the first place, because Nagato awakened it for him, and that is why Madara ordered Tobi to get Nagato on their side after he allowed himself to expire by disconnecting himself from the Mazo, and I seriously doubt if Obito could awaken it in a shorter time frame, that is mere conjecture in your part, and tbh if the most powerful Uchiha took all those years until the end of his life to awaken the Rinnegan, then Obito most probably could not awaken it in a shorter time span than him. Also we are not even sure if the Meteorite Jutsu was an inherent arsenal of the Rinnegan or his EMS, since Madara used his Perfect Susanoo to cast it.

Nope. I agree, he fully awakened the Rinnegan, but was too old to do what he wanted.

Nope, it's not a matter of his incapability to use what was already present, it's because it was not present to begin with.

 

[Disquiet]

I seriously doubt if Obito could awaken it in a shorter time frame, that is mere conjecture in your part, and tbh if the most powerful Uchiha took all those years until the end of his life to awaken the Rinnegan, then Obito most probably could not awaken it in a shorter time span than him.

That's a moot point. Itachi awakened his MS at 13. xD

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

That's a moot point. Itachi awakened his MS at 13. xD

MS is from the Sharingan which is a Kekkei Genkai, the Rinnegan is not.