[Theory] Jiraiya selfish "sacrifice" was entirely pointless?

[Wind Squid]

It may have been forced but it was needed.

it needed a little more polish -__-

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

it needed a little more polish -__-

True but you can't deny that Jiraiya's death has'nt had a major impact on the story.

 

[Wind Squid]

True but you can't deny that Jiraiya's death has'nt had a major impact on the story.

yes. but. it. was. avoidable.

 

[Momo86]

You are missing what happened, and more importantly you're missing how Pain usually operates (operated).

And finally, you didn't get quite well what happened in Pain VS Jiraiya.

1) First off, what Jiraiya did.

His choices were to go away with the two frogs immediately, stay with the two frogs and try to gather the info risking to lose his life, the two frogs, and the intel gathered that far (like the body he took down) or finally, to send the info away and try to collect more and return home alive. He went for the third option, but Fukasaku choose to stay with him, which is why when he realized he wasn't going to make it, he could use Fukasaku to send out even more info. Jiraiya never had the chance to evaluate if the last message was worth his life, which is the evaluation you are making - his optimal scenario was to come back and tell everything he discovered in person or possibly take down Pain himself, the worst case scenario was coming back without any substantial info and with Pain still at full strenght. When it became clear that best case scenario wasn't going to be he tried to avoid worst case scenario by sending Shima away, then Fukasaku.


2) That said, how does Pain fight?

Pain usually attacks with one body, adding up more and more if they are needed considering the opponent's strenght. The core trick is attacking again once the opponent thinks he took everybody down, and then attacking once again with the bodies the opponent SUPPOSED were destroyed, who he restores with Naraka Path's ability. He yells "We Are Pain, We Are God" to enstabilish the idea that there is an undefined number of Pain who can add up over and over, and can resurrect over and over. If by any chance all Six Paths are destroyed, Nagato shuts off contact with the Six Paths and retread, hidden to sight by Konan. A sensor would see through Konan's camouflage, but sensors don't know how the Six Paths of Pain works, they don't know there is some Nagato guy to look out for.

3) What happened in the fight with Naruto.

Pain didn't spill the beans on his secret while chatting with Naruto, as you seem to think. Pain said "I'm not the last Pain" because he wanted to stick with the usual facade, that he is immortal and is many bodies keep coming back even if you take them down. Even in case the last body was destroyed (something he considered highly improbable) he was trying to get Naruto's spirit down by assuring him Pain would come back. It is then that Naruto says "take me to the real one" and Pain replies "oh, you know that", meaning that the immortal-god facade is over.

Then Naruto wins, then he uses the chakra receiver to find Nagato. Why does he know of the chakra receiver? Because Katsuyu told him. And how did she know? Because Ino, Shizune etc. told her. And how did they understand the reason the body was pinned with chakra receivers? Because they knew the body wasn't a real shinobi but just a puppet, because "the real one isn't among them".

Kishimoto rarely uses panels to explain in depth how things work, and surely throws in a number of plot holes and forced narrative devices, but sometimes things can be explained with a bit of attention.

 

[msbishop92]

Jiraiya had to die for Naruto to grow stronger. His death was a catalyst for Naruto's development. If Naruto hadn't experienced the pain of his masters death, then he wouldn't have gone to Myobuku and become a sage. He wouldn't have defeated Pain, for he would have been captured instantly. It was the passing of the torch. In his meeting with Tsundade before embarking to the rain he spoke as if he knew that he might die on the mission. He was ready because he knew Naruto was going to be the one to bring about peace to the world.

And Jiraiya didn't fail. As soon as he saw Yahiko as one of the paths he knew something was up, and then even more so when he recognized all the other paths as shinobi who he knew had already died/been defeated in the past. When he started getting stabbed with the rods he knew Nagato was pulling the strings somewhere.

It was like a Obi Wan vs Vader type thing except Pain wasn't Naruto's father. Jiraiya was stricken down to inspire the change within his pupil to grow stronger.

 

[AaaaNinja]

Jiraiya's death and actions leading up to it doesn't serve the exclusive purpose of gathering intelligence, so it doesn't matter whether or not the information that he gained was useful.:

1. Naruto's learning Sage Mode was motivated by a desire for revenge by both Naruto and the toads.

2. It's possible that Naruto wouldn't have been recognized as a Savior, since Jiraiya only recognized this during a moment of crisis after he had made the choice to go back in. He may or may not have had this realization had he gone home and perhaps Naruto would have played less of a role getting ready. Would Jiraiya continue to believe in his duty to deal with Pain and focus resources on his own preparations?

3. Maybe Naruto wouldn't have inherited Jiraiya's book, wouldn't have had the opportunity (by reading the book and talking to Nagato) to gain insights from the thoughts and feelings of both Jiraiya and his past students, and then shoulder the task of finding the Peace that both Jiraiya and his students wanted and given Nagato a chance to do his best to make amends.

4. Naruto learned something about Sasuke from Jiraiya's death. Lost bonds. Understanding Sasuke's feelings:

Spoiler

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Understanding revenge:

Spoiler

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It might be pointless if you look at it from the intelligence-gathering angle, but for storytelling purposes it has to be examined alongside the bigger picture.

If it's a criticism of Jiraiya's choice, it might be an okay argument. But: he was under the impression that he was in the middle of fulfilling a prophecy and under a lot of pressure to make the right choice. When a person experiences an awareness of what is really at stake they may make choices that they wouldn't make normally.

If you're instead trying to criticize the storytelling it's very weak.

 

[Gyakusetsu]

Your right but the message was misinterpreted and never intended for Tsunade or Naruto.

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And to further back up that thread.

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[Nous]

Look at my avatar and thread. Alright, I migh have my bias, okay Jiraiya's death inspired naruto to grow stronger and thereby allowed Naruto to defeat Pein. Without the info, Konoha would have been anhilated even more.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Or, j-man could of desummoned ma or pa and have either one reverse summon the other two back to mt mobokyu. Saving his life and having a corpse to get info out of. His death was pointless.

 

[FourthLegacy]

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tsk tsk Konoha, even i got it..


No jk

Jiraiya is a true hero. He probably knew that Naruto would train harder. But in other words he did it cause of plot no jutsu.

 

[Penguin]

I never really understood why it was such a heroic sacrifice.Even tho he had the chance to uncover pain's identity,he was in no condition to do that.There is no guarantee that konoha would be able to decipher his message.He risked his life virtually for nothing.I'd say that is absolutely foolish.Being a sannin, he should've realized how important his life was,for the village's safety.Konoha was lucky enough as naruto mastered the sage mode,otherwise it would be wiped off the map.

It was heroic because he beat a couple paths even Hanzo could not touch, he knew he was going too die but he fought anyway. Pretty heroic.

 

[enton mode]

Jiraiya killed himself to avoid the shameful experience of returning to the village with one arm lol.

 

[Strawberry]

hmmmm he did have his reasons and advantages did out way the disatvantages at that time

 

[thegame]

First of all, partly Jiraya's message should be enough for the average person to figure it out, but both due to plot, and also because Naruto is just very stupid and dumb, etc., it took him very long to figure it out.

Also Jiraya's death served a completely different purpose than "uncovering" the truth about Pain. Whether, what he uncovered, actually helped Naruto to find Nagato or not, is irrelevant. Kishi showed it, as if it was important, and don't take those bad translations too literally.

There is no doubt, that his sacrifice was "worthy", but as I said, the main purpose for Jiraya's death has nothing to do with it. He needed to die for Naruto to develop, so that he could make his stand on how to make "peace" in the world. In other words - learn to forgive the one he hates the most.

Besides you are forgetting the most important detail from their battle. Pa learned many of Pain's abilities, so Naruto could prepare. Without this knowledge, Naruto had at best defeated 1 or 2 of his paths. This is crucial to why Pain was defeated and to why Konoha didn't get completely destroyed. So saying he died for nothing is just laughable, and you should feel shameful.

 

[Wind Squid]

Very interesting thread!

 

[naruttebayo]

i completely disagree.
it wasn't pointless
it helped naruto to grow up immensely
i think nuff said

 

[Wind Squid]

i completely disagree.
it wasn't pointless
it helped naruto to grow up immensely
i think nuff said

I think he'd grow without needless Jiraiya death allrighte

 

[Grammar Nazi]

I get your point and you are correct I thought about the same thing as well. However,

If Jiraiya hadn't get himself killed by Pein, Naruto wouldn't have had the motivation to train for sage mode and its highly unlikely that he would have been able to master it before Pein invasion.

Like the great toad sage said, a time would come when Jiraiya would have to make a choice. The right choice was choosing to get himself killed. Otherwise, the world would have suffered a great disaster- akatsuki would have taken all the biijus away and the world would have ended.

So yeah Jiraiya's choice was destiny, albeit stupid.

 

[Wind Squid]

i get your point and you are correct i thought about the same thing as well. However,

if jiraiya hadn't get himself killed by pein, naruto wouldn't have had the motivation to train for sage mode and its highly unlikely that he would have been able to master it before pein invasion.

Like the great toad sage said, a time would come when jiraiya would have to make a choice. The right choice was choosing to get himself killed. Otherwise, the world would have suffered a great disaster- akatsuki would have taken all the biijus away and the world would have ended.

So yeah jiraiya's choice was destiny, albeit stupid.

lol bugs lmao!!!

 

[UltimateDeadpool]

In hindsight, Jiraiya didn't have to sacrifice himself. Nobody even knew what his secret message meant, it was Inoichi and Shizune that figured out Pein's secret thanks to the other clues Jiraiya sent back.

Had Jiraiya of returned with those clues, with Shizune's and Inoichi's help, they may had figured out Pein's secret sooner.

But Jiraiya had to die for plot reasons, Kishimoto established that Jiraiya could had beaten Pein, and probably still could had even with just one arm with the village helping him. But it was time for Naruto to be the hero, he had to be the one to show his progress and defeat Pein.