[Theory] Jiraiya selfish "sacrifice" was entirely pointless?

[Lordofd100x]

i want pain, in my *******

 

[Wind Squid]

I have to say I agree but you must remember that Jaraiya's death is ultimately a neccessity for the plot to progress and for Naruto to grow up. Good thread though, + rep.

Finally! Thanks, jeez, why people are getting so butthurt over the truth? It's just semi- forced plot-point that kishi shoved down our throats. It was kinda cool, yeah, but felt really awkward when sat down for a sec and put everything into perspective. (Like Dark Knight Rises).

His death could use a bit more polish, imho

 

[Momo86]

Hmmm, no.

The core point was that Pain wasn't six separate shinobi, but just one controlling those six like puppets. The information also explains that there isn't one "main" body controlling the other five, and that the controller is out of the battlefield.

People who rate Konan as a useless partner often miss the fact that a normal sensor can't SEE the chakra receivers trasmitting between Nagato and the six bodies, and sight alone can't spot him because Konan is always hiding him with a fake environment. Nagato would never be spotted "just by chance".

Without the information, it was impossibile to get where Nagato was, which meant he could just retreat had he wanted to, making the whole battle pointless apart from the fact that he'd have lost Yahiko's body, who had some emotional value for him and Konan. When Nagato lost one of the Six Paths of Pain (the Animal Path I think) against Jiraiya, he just swapped it with another body without losing anything, therefore without tracking Nagato, destroying the Six Paths can cause him to retreat but nothing more than that.

Jiraya already saw that because he destroyed the three bodies and they just came back at him with three more. Uncovering Pain's identity was a key to defeat him for good.

This is why "the real one isn't among them" is useful intel. On the opposite side, a message saying "Guys, Nagato is controlling these six" or "Guys, this one is the orphan I trained" would all be pointless because no one except Tsunade know Nagato in Konoha, and even Tsunade has seen him before he developed any ability.

Keep in mind that Jiraiya has no way to possibly know that once Naruto found Nagato he wouldn't kill him. The core point was finding the real Nagato and taking him down.

 

[~Zonta~]

The following conversation was the fruit of Jiraya's sacrifice and same goes for Naruto's growth in order to learn SM

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

 

[Wind Squid]

The following conversation was the fruit of Jiraya's sacrifice and same goes for Naruto's growth in order to learn SM

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Yes, because i left out a page where toad sages fill Naruto on...the stuff...he already...knew.
I'm not exactly Sure why Pein's commending Naruto here since he outright told him that he's not the last one

 

[Wind Squid]

Yo, how do i rename the thread to "selfless"? mah bad

 

[Momo86]

Well, saying that Jiraiya's death has a point because it encouraged Naruto to learn Sage Mode is faulty reasoning. Jiraiya didn't let himself die just to stimulate his student doing better. The fact that it happened in the plot doesn't mean it makes Jiraiya's actions smart.

As I said, the point was uncovering the secret of Pain, with he did.

 

[Wind Squid]

Well, saying that Jiraiya's death has a point because it encouraged Naruto to learn Sage Mode is faulty reasoning. Jiraiya didn't let himself die just to stimulate his student doing better. The fact that it happened in the plot doesn't mean it makes Jiraiya's actions smart.

As I said, the point was uncovering the secret of Pain, with he did.

Pfft, please, Naruto always has the motivation for training...it was just a forced plot point for him to go extra at it.

And again....he didn't hactuallly huncover the secret of Pein...hurm

 

[~Zonta~]

Yes, because i left out a page where toad sages fill Naruto on...the stuff...he already...knew.
I'm not exactly Sure why Pein's commending Naruto here since he outright told him that he's not the last one

toad sage didn't knew most of the things nor he knew anything about his abilities since he was summoned and info shared between Jiraya and Fugaku was less since Jiraya died when he figured out what really was happening there.

And Naruto figured it out thanks to some help from everyone including Katsuya which was the second time some one was able to take Pain so far in the fight to corner Tendo.

 

[Wind Squid]

toad sage didn't knew most of the things nor he knew anything about his abilities since he was summoned and info shared between Jiraya and Fugaku was less since Jiraya died when he figured out what really was happening there.

And Naruto figured it out thanks to some help from everyone including Katsuya which was the second time some one was able to take Pain so far in the fight to corner Tendo.

No, i was saying that toad sage reminded naruto that he wasn't the real Pein and all that info that he received from the villages...well...IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JIRAIYA!

 

[Tejbeast]

jaraiya could of send out a shadow clone instead

 

[Momo86]

Pfft, please, Naruto always has the motivation for training...it was just a forced plot point for him to go extra at it.

And again....he didn't hactuallly huncover the secret of Pein...hurm

1. yes, that. But moreso, even if Naruto outright said "I decided to learn Sage Mod because Jiraiya died" it still wouldn't make a justification for Jiraiya's actions. Only if Jiraiya thoughts were exactly "I'm going to sacrifice myself so Naruto will train harder" the reasoning would make sense, but then Jiraiya would be an idiot.

2. You're wrong on this one, I already said why two posts ago.

 

[Wind Squid]

1. yes, that. But moreso, even if Naruto outright said "I decided to learn Sage Mod because Jiraiya died" it still wouldn't make a justification for Jiraiya's actions. Only if Jiraiya thoughts were exactly "I'm going to sacrifice myself so Naruto will train harder" the reasoning would make sense, but then Jiraiya would be an idiot.

2. You're wrong on this one, I already said why two posts ago.

1. It's called a forced plot point

2. No, now you didnt

 

[Momo86]

2. No, now you didnt

See below.

Hmmm, no.

The core point was that Pain wasn't six separate shinobi, but just one controlling those six like puppets. The information also explains that there isn't one "main" body controlling the other five, and that the controller is out of the battlefield.

People who rate Konan as a useless partner often miss the fact that a normal sensor can't SEE the chakra receivers trasmitting between Nagato and the six bodies, and sight alone can't spot him because Konan is always hiding him with a fake environment. Nagato would never be spotted "just by chance".

Without the information, it was impossibile to get where Nagato was, which meant he could just retreat had he wanted to, making the whole battle pointless apart from the fact that he'd have lost Yahiko's body, who had some emotional value for him and Konan. When Nagato lost one of the Six Paths of Pain (the Animal Path I think) against Jiraiya, he just swapped it with another body without losing anything, therefore without tracking Nagato, destroying the Six Paths can cause him to retreat but nothing more than that.

Jiraya already saw that because he destroyed the three bodies and they just came back at him with three more. Uncovering Pain's identity was a key to defeat him for good.

This is why "the real one isn't among them" is useful intel. On the opposite side, a message saying "Guys, Nagato is controlling these six" or "Guys, this one is the orphan I trained" would all be pointless because no one except Tsunade know Nagato in Konoha, and even Tsunade has seen him before he developed any ability.

Keep in mind that Jiraiya has no way to possibly know that once Naruto found Nagato he wouldn't kill him. The core point was finding the real Nagato and taking him down.

 

[Wind Squid]

See below.

Ah, yes just missed that.

Just how you missed the point of this entire thread.

NARUTO. DIDN'T. USE. THAT. INFO. AT. ALL!

He had to be reminded by Pein himself that he's not the last Pein

Yes, Konan was pointless since Naruto found out their location by sticking Pein's chakra receiver into his own body (and that intel alone came from corpse of ex-animal path. THE ONLY USEFUL INTEL for Naruto that Sage gathered)

Nagato is in a giant wheel-chair and he obviously needs support from Konan/Pein to move around and gather bodies. It would take a rubbish amount of time for him to get new ones out of the fridge first. And he obviously had other bodies in Amegakure...but he had to get THERE first! He'd be spotted the instant he goes out of cover since he'd have no support from Pein.

And i'm not saying he needed to write a different message, i'm SAYING HE NEEDED TO STAY ALIVE AND TELL NARUTO ALL THAT

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

Without Jiraiya's sacrifice the Leaf village would'nt have gotten the info about the real Pain and Naruto would'nt have wanted to get stronger by learning and perfecting Sage Mode. So Jiraiya's death was a good thing for the story and he died a hero.

 

[Wind Squid]

Without Jiraiya's sacrifice the Leaf village would'nt have gotten the info about the real Pain and Naruto would'nt have wanted to get stronger by learning and perfecting Sage Mode. So Jiraiya's death was a good thing for the story and he died a hero.

i give you a badge of courage and wit!
- You receive: 1x Badge ["Badge of TL;DR champion!"]

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

i give you a badge of courage and wit!
- You receive: 1x Badge ["Badge of TL;DR champion!"]

I've actually read your post but I believe Jiraiya's death was'nt pointless at all, as a matter of fact he had to die for the story and for Naruto's character growth.

 

[Wind Squid]

I actually read your post but I believe Jiraiya's death was'nt pointless at all, as a matter of fact he had to die for the story and for Naruto's character growth.

yes, which is a forced plot point

 

[Shadow Phantasm]

yes, which is a forced plot point

It may have been forced but it was needed.