The uzumaki will be confirmed to be the original blood line

[DeadManWonderLand]

Also notice the bottom right panel with Konan in disbelief that Tobi had Uchiha & Senju powers.. just like her friend Nagato.

Konan knew nothing about izanagi and obito only mentioned the fact you need uchiha and senju dna for izanagi after he stated he uzed izanagi which proves two things she did not know of izanagi and therefore had no idea that uchiha and senju dna was required for it.We both agreed that nagato did not have senju and uchiha dna specifically but that is where we ended out agreement.You go on to say "it is never stated that you need to be of Uchiha BLOOD in order to gain access to ying yang techs like Izanagi and Rinnegan. You just need to obtain the power of the Uchiha. " Which is proved wrong by the very manga page you tried to cite as proof.You need senju and uchiha dna not just uchiha dna.In that moment you contradict yoursellf.You also said "I feel as if Nagato was able to wield the Rinnegan because of the fact Madara gave him his eyes." Which conflicts with your next statement "Also notice the bottom right panel with Konan in disbelief that Tobi had Uchiha & Senju powers.. just like her friend Nagato."Nagato did not display any specific powers of the senju or the uchiha nor was konan shocked by the fact nagato had senju and uchiha powers because that would imply she knew what makes up the materials of the rinnegan.I just wanted to point out these blunders

 

[Griffith]

You go on to say "it is never stated that you need to be of Uchiha BLOOD in order to gain access to ying yang techs like Izanagi and Rinnegan. You just need to obtain the power of the Uchiha. "

You obviously need Senju power as well in order to use 'ying yang' techs .. seriously lets not turn this into a debate of semantics, you know what I meant.

 

[Griffith]

"Nagato did not display any specific powers of the senju or the uchiha nor was konan shocked by the fact nagato had senju and uchiha powers because that would imply she knew what makes up the materials of the rinnegan.I just wanted to point out these blunders

Konan obviously knows what the Rinnegan is if she knows that Senju and Uchiha powers combined is the power of the SO6P. Are u ****ing kidding me

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

Konan obviously knows what the Rinnegan is if she knows that Senju and Uchiha powers combined is the power of the SO6P. Are u ****ing kidding me

Then why was she shocked to learn that tobi claimed to have given nagato those eyes and why did she refute his claims and say that rinnegan belonged to nagato ? This would imply she knows that the rinnegan requires uchiha and senju dna and if nagato was the original owner it would imply he personally has ucihha and senju.Which we know he doesnt.How do you explain those inconsistencies ?

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You can say semantics all you want you contradicted yourself multiple times on one post and now continue to do so

 

[eyesofthekyuubi44]

you are crazy hashirama>nagato and tsunade, tobirama>naruto bringer of darkness gets him before he goes bm and t

Bringer of Darkness= CANCELLED BY KURAMA. It's an A-rank genjutsu which isn't instant like Tsukuyomi.

I do agree (but could be wrong about this too) that Hashirama is greater than Nagato. Hype by extremely intelligent and knowledgeable Shinobi counts for something as well.

Nagato destroyed Konoha, but Hashirama created it.

And all of you guys who are talking about Nagato being a Senju.... He is from the Senju "lineage" but he is an Uzumaki. Really not a hard concept to wrap your head around.

We talk too much of clan heritage on this site when sometimes, it doesn't even matter.

Take the Sarutobi clan for instance. Hiruzen was the Third Hokage, Konohamaru mastered Rasengan at a young age which is spatial recomposition to the max, and an A-Rank jutsu which basically took out a path of Pain at HIS age.

And Asuma.... had cigarette jutsu. Nothing spectacular about him.

My point is, so what if Nagato is an Uzumaki/Senju/WHATEVER?

Would him being from a fodder clan make him less badass if he could still do the same shit?

 

[shri3kbat]

Can't say that I'm sure or that I care too much about this, but I feel the Uzumaki are branched off from Senju and that Senju and Uchiha were the first. Remember that Nagato is most likely half Uchiha and half Uzumaki (Close to Senju) which doesn't prove any Uzumaki is compatible with Rinnegan

 

[Usanara Dattebayo]

Granted we have yet to see any facts of this, but I still believe it will be reveled that the SO6P was an Uzimaki. So much is still to be said about the Sage and his background.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

Can't say that I'm sure or that I care too much about this, but I feel the Uzumaki are branched off from Senju and that Senju and Uchiha were the first. Remember that Nagato is most likely half Uchiha and half Uzumaki (Close to Senju) which doesn't prove any Uzumaki is compatible with Rinnegan

I am somewhat confused on where you stand on the subject but the last chapter proved the uzumaki are compatible with the rinnegan seeing how nagato uzumaki was implanted with thus said rinnegan.If you mean being an uzumaki dos not automatically guarantee you from getting the rinnegan then i agree as stated by madara that after he implanted hashis cells nothing happened until years later when he was on his death bed and then continued to say obito has the right dna but is not guaranteed the rinnegan.the question here is now that we know you need uchiha and senju dna why is nagato able to retain the rinnegan ?esp when even having both uchiha and senju does not always make it certain that it will bring about the rinnegan ?The info you can take from that is another factor must hinge on the rinnegan be awakened.

 

[raziel777]

The line your quoting is not the full post so i sense your trying to take it out of context

Im on my phone, can't quote the full text.
-I meant the knowledge of the rikudo is lost because it happened eons ago, not 200 years ago.
- And that's why hashi can't be the first senju leader. He was in his 30-40s when he died(his bro was relatively young when he was made kage). That was not a century ago. The senju have a longer history...

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

Im on my phone, can't quote the full text.
-I meant the knowledge of the rikudo is lost because it happened eons ago, not 200 years ago.
- And that's why hashi can't be the first senju leader. He was in his 30-40s when he died(his bro was relatively young when he was made kage). That was not a century ago. The senju have a longer history...

I see the point your trying to make but the manga never stated or gave a specific time span so your "eons" approach is still just an assumption.the best indicator to show how much time has passed since the first reigned and present time can be seen through danzo.who at the time of his death was 72.He is a human with a regular life span and he was shown to be a young adult during the rule of tobirama.We know tobirama ruled and died during the first war.If he was a young man at that time then it proves that not even a century has gone by since the death of hasirama who died some time after his battle with madara and before the first war.So the time you initially debunked is more likely.Do not misunderstand me though i agree that the info on the sage is lost or else nobody would be in the dark and calling him a myth but what my this post does prove is that the time span between the death of the sage and the present is indeed in the realm of 200 years.

 

[Griffith]

Then why was she shocked to learn that tobi claimed to have given nagato those eyes and why did she refute his claims and say that rinnegan belonged to nagato ? This would imply she knows that the rinnegan requires uchiha and senju dna and if nagato was the original owner it would imply he personally has ucihha and senju.Which we know he doesnt.How do you explain those inconsistencies ?

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You can say semantics all you want you contradicted yourself multiple times on one post and now continue to do so

She was shocked because she didn't know, Nagato probably didn't know his Rinnegan was Madara's until Tobi told him. Nagato never even knew Tobi's true identity so.. And what do you mean she never knew what the Rinnegan requires, she obviously knows because She said ' Thats the power of the SO6P, you dont have such power' to Tobi.

 

[Griffith]

and if nagato was the original owner it would imply he personally has ucihha and senju.Which we know he doesnt.How do you explain those inconsistencies ?

We DONT know that he doesn't have access to Uchiha and Senju powers. You say it as if it's fact. Foh

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

She was shocked because she didn't know, Nagato probably didn't know his Rinnegan was Madara's until Tobi told him. Nagato never even knew Tobi's true identity so.. And what do you mean she never knew what the Rinnegan requires, she obviously knows because She said ' Thats the power of the SO6P, you dont have such power' to Tobi.

She knew of the myths regarding the sage she did not know specifics and if she did how did she come to learn of these specifics ?
She did not know the rinnegan was implanted she thought it was nagatos hence why she said its nagatos (face palm)
If she knew that it requires senju and uciha dna (which you still have not explained)and was still somehow unaware that the eyes were given to him.How did she think he awakened them ?Your mixing the events up.Tobi survives the explosion and konan is shocked to see him alive he goes on to explain it was izanagi he then goes into detail on what you need to use izanagi and lastly before he kills her he goes onto say where the justu is derived from.Like i said in the beginning of this post she knew of the myth not the specifics.She had no idea what izanagi was until tobi explained it and had no idea it required both strains of dna.When she said no thats impossible she was referring to the fact he is using powers of the sage himself not because she knows the rinnegan requirments.Do you know how many inconsisticies arise from her knowing information she could of not known about ? I advise to go read that battle again because you have it all out of order.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

and if nagato was the original owner it would imply he personally has ucihha and senju.Which we know he doesnt.How do you explain those inconsistencies ?

We DONT know that he doesn't have access to Uchiha and Senju powers. You say it as if it's fact. Foh

He was an uzumaki who was implanted with the rinnegan he has the powers of the rinnegan he does not have a sharingan and as for the senju they did not have a specific skill to identify them only hashi had one like that and nagato does not have that either.

 

[xXBlazinNinXx]

i did read why are you a charlie bundels wannabe you will never be him

Whao we got a badass over here

 

[StarSaphire]

Well, I'm new to NarutoBase--my first post! I want to get at least ten posts before I upload my sig and avatar.
I hope I don't cause anyone any headaches during this little visit.

But back to the matter at hand: the Uzumaki being the strongest? I don't know. I mean, who says every single person in the Senju clan had only one kid? If they did, then they must have had cousins and so forth. Clands are usually composed of the same family, but that doesn't mean that's the entirwe family. If they're distant relatives, then they evidently made another clan, generations passed, genetics chainged and they eventually had red hair. We haven't gotten as good a look into the Uzumaki clan, so I won't say if they're better or worse. The simple fact is we don't HAVE all the facts. I won't say where the Uzumaki stand in comparrison to the other two clans, because I would only be giving pure speculation.

The little "family tree" you gave was weird, and you made several good points. I'll give you credit for at least that.

 

[DeadManWonderLand]

Well, I'm new to NarutoBase--my first post! I want to get at least ten posts before I upload my sig and avatar.
I hope I don't cause anyone any headaches during this little visit.

But back to the matter at hand: the Uzumaki being the strongest? I don't know. I mean, who says every single person in the Senju clan had only one kid? If they did, then they must have had cousins and so forth. Clands are usually composed of the same family, but that doesn't mean that's the entirwe family. If they're distant relatives, then they evidently made another clan, generations passed, genetics chainged and they eventually had red hair. We haven't gotten as good a look into the Uzumaki clan, so I won't say if they're better or worse. The simple fact is we don't HAVE all the facts. I won't say where the Uzumaki stand in comparrison to the other two clans, because I would only be giving pure speculation.

The little "family tree" you gave was weird, and you made several good points. I'll give you credit for at least that.

I am thankful for you giving me credit but i have no idea what your talking about regarding who is the "strongest" my thread never mentions anything like that the topic is origins of the uchiha and senju

 

[raziel777]

Glad to see you get I mean. But I still don't agree with hashirama being the first leader. If the 200 years is right, why did people forget about the sage ? Why nobody but skilled reseachers seem to know about the two sons ? Why does anybody know about the juubi if it was on a rampage not 2 century ago and the sage fought it and created the moon ? Such spectacular events do not slumber into darkness after only 200 years. That's why I think that the sage lived a very long time ago.

 

[Troyg39]

*Edit* Whoa, I really didn't expect this to be so long

Ok I've thought a lot about you've been saying and trying to see your point of view. And before you spit anymore nonsense about genealogy note that I took some of those classes as science electives at ECU, so I'm not someone who's new to the subject, which is why I was trying to point out to you the flaw in your diagram (which you refuse to listen), I just didn't say anything because I don't think bragging about my educational background makes me more of an authority on a fictional cartoon. But I saw in one of your posts that you said "I can't ignore facts" so I will give you facts from both real life and the manga in a sensible manner and see if you actually address them.

First of all I now believe that your theory is ALMOST correct, but it doesn't cover one major flaw.

FACT: Uzumaki and Uchiha have nothing in common. Nothing. This goes beyond the sharingan. Uzumaki and Uchiha have not been shown to have any resemblence in chakra, skills, specialties, or anything. Yes, they share a common anscestor with the sage, but FACT: the senju and uchiha are both direct lineage of the sage, and FACT: the senju and uchiha also have nothing in common dna wise besides the connection of the sage. Beyond this, they are two completely different clans. FACT: The Uzumaki and Senju share a lot of similiarities in chakra and specialties, but the Uzumaki do not share anything with the Uchiha. So your statement that Uchiha dna lies somewhere within the Uzumaki is more baseless than you would like to admit. Your diagram makes up for a lot of your theory, but it doesn't account for this simple, yet powerful flaw. This isn't something you can overlook.

Look at your diagram one more time to understand what I'm saying. On your tree of life, you have Uzumaki, Senju, and Uchiha. You have Uzumaki as the main, or "untainted" branch. Then you have Uchiha and Senju both branching from that. So far this falls in line with your theory, until one mistake you make. You highlight a personal connection between the Uzumaki and Senju, and say they share a common ancestor, yet you say nothing about the connection between Uzumaki and Uchiha. Remember, it's a FACT: Senju and Uchiha share the same sage lineage directly, since their clans come directly from the two sons. This is proven in the manga, you can't ignore this. It means the the uchiha lineage is just as potent as the senju lineage. So for your theory to be correct, all three would have to share that same ancestor, yet you highlight and connect only two in your diagram. You claim to have taken genealogy classes, so this should be easy for you to understand. This still doesn't disprove your theory entirely ofcorse, because you could just as easily go back and change your diagram.

Let's dig even deeper into the relationship with the Senju and Uzumaki. You said that Uzumaki had powers that the Senju do not. You are correct, but you fail to realize that the Uzumaki powers are watered down versions of the Senju, implying that the Senju came first. In the manga, it has been stated numerous times that the bloodline of Uchiha and Senju thinned out and they got weaker as more and more mutations starting occuring. You also point out that Uchiha can control the tailed beasts. Keep in mind that Uchiha can control tailed beasts WITHOUT having to be their hosts. I will give you two facts you haven't considered so far. FACT: The Senju can also control tailed beasts WITHOUT having to be their hosts (ex: hashirama). The Uzumaki can't control tailed beasts, their chakra can ony supress tailed beast chakra. Just in case you wanted to site Naruto on this, note that Naruto never ended up controlling Kurama. He simply befriended him. The Senju had the ability to control the beasts' will, just like the Uchiha had the abilitiy to control the beasts' mind. So if Uzumaki are the original bloodline, and we know from the manga that the bloodlines got thinner and weaker, how is it that we go from Uzumaki being able to only supress tailed beasts chakra, to senju and uchiha being able to supress tailed beasts as a whole? The fact that the Uzumaki have a lesser ability to contain the tailed beasts adds weight to the idea that they came last and are a result from the blood thinning the manga talks about. Another thing to point out is that the healing abilities of the Senju were far more advanced than the Uzumaki as well. Uzumaki have lots of life energy and good healing abilities, but the senju were known to be superior in both of those aspects. Also note that the Senju were experts in sealing as well as the Uzumaki, and were probably superior.

The manga has expressed numerous times the connection between the Uzumaki and the Senju. It has never shown a single connection between the Uzumaki and Uchiha. This is another thing you can not simply ignore. And unless the Uzumaki and Uchiha share something more than simply having the sage as an ancestor, your theory can not be taken as valid because that lineage will only be contributed to the fact that the Uzumaki are probably "from the senju lineage" (quote from the manga) meaning that they are a branch of the senju so they share the sage ancestry, just more distant. REAL LIFE FACT: If your dna lies within an ancestry, you must share atleast one trait or commonality. Whether that be hair, skin, health conditions, skills, something. If the Uzumaki and Uchiha have nothing in common, then it is simply invalid for you to say that the Uchiha dna lies somewhere within the Uzumaki. No, the Uzumaki can't be a catalyst for Uchiha dna, because there would be atleast ONE thing noticable between them. Also, almost all of the Uzumaki's traits are weaker than the Senju traits in common, and the Uzumaki haven't been shown to have any superiority in anything over the Senju, which contradicts your theory since we know the bloodline got weaker with age, so whoever came first had to be stronger.

I hope you read this, and I hope whatever response you can come up with will actually address these facts since you said yourself you can't ignore them. I'm not expecting you to abandon your theory. Like I said, you are almost correct. But if you don't atleast change your diagram a bit (I've clearly shown you in great detail why it is errored) then I will know from that that you aren't someone to be taken seriously

 

[StarSaphire]

I am thankful for you giving me credit but i have no idea what your talking about regarding who is the "strongest" my thread never mentions anything like that the topic is origins of the uchiha and senju

Oh, sorry. I've just heard people talk about this and the thought poped up. But no, I don't think they're the ORIGIONAL or direct bloodline. Bloodline? Yes, of coarse--just not direct. If Kishi gives us a more direct look into the Uzumaki (wich I doubt), then the variables would probably change. I'm just irritated with my brother's debates on "who's the strongest." It doesn't really matter--they're all strong, and it's up to the individual, not the group. Hashirama was said to be godlike, but was he the only Senju? No. Was he the strongest? Yes. Hashirama (and if you want, Tsunade) was the only one thay looked deeply into as far as the Senju clan.