The Uchiha coup and massacre: still a mystery

[drslim]

Being Itachi and his analytically self, I'm sure he considered it. But, I think he realized that he was helpless to try and stop his clan from thinking about rebellion. He had been given 2 options by Danzo, and he chose the one option that would allow the Uchiha clan to live on in the form of Sasuke.

Remember that the reason Itachi did all of this was because of Sasuke. He loves his younger brother quite alot. I doubt he trusted Danzo, but maybe he did, just enough to believe his word the Sasuke would be safe. As for Tobi, he placed conditions upon their collaboration. He would aid him in exacting revenge on the Uchiha (whose motive for revenge is unknown, to this point), but only if he never attacks Konoha again, and stays away from Sasuke. The bond between brothers is quite strong.

You can't have it both ways. Either Itachi was coldly, rationally and unemotionally considering all options, or he was trying to save his brother at all costs (even sacrificing his own parents).

In the first case, why didn't Itachi choose to cooperate with the Third? More than that: he could have hidden Sasuke or given him to the Third for protection, if he was just trying to choose the most rational option. Then, he could have tried to do whatever was possible to stop the rebellion. This might have ended in a war anyway, but at least he would be doing his best to protect both his family and the village.

In the second case, if Itachi was just reacting out of fear for his brother and for the village, his actions make a little more sense. A terrified person does irrational things. However: Itachi was already a spy (double agent), and he was controlled enough to continue this mission succesfully. This is more consistent with being a fanatical and blind follower of Danzo.

If you believe that Itachi was rational and controlled, than the only thing that fits his actions is either a direct attack on him, or a fanatical loyalty to Danzo/Root.

 

[VisionOfDisorder]

Some people won't be satisfied with any explaination, Itachi's drive to protect the leaf comes from his closeness to Shisui, and his own peceful nature (both of which were directly mentioned this week.) Shisui was Itachi's older brother-firgure. And Itachi promised him to protect the leaf. This is because unlike most of the Uchiha clan, Itachi, Shisui, (And Izuna in the past) weren't consumed by their families curse of hatred. Madara was. And so has been Sasuke. But Itachi and Izuna both loved their brothers no matter how consumed they became, and both made huge sacrifices for them. Itachi's happened to involve savng his little brother AND the village. So he was able to fulfil his promise both to Shisui, and to Sasuke (to keep him safe) in one fell swoop, by sacrificing any chance he could have had at a normal, peceful life. making sense?

 

[repulse]

You can't have it both ways. Either Itachi was coldly, rationally and unemotionally considering all options, or he was trying to save his brother at all costs (even sacrificing his own parents).

In the first case, why didn't Itachi choose to cooperate with the Third? More than that: he could have hidden Sasuke or given him to the Third for protection, if he was just trying to choose the most rational option. Then, he could have tried to do whatever was possible to stop the rebellion. This might have ended in a war anyway, but at least he would be doing his best to protect both his family and the village.

In the second case, if Itachi was just reacting out of fear for his brother and for the village, his actions make a little more sense. A terrified person does irrational things. However: Itachi was already a spy (double agent), and he was controlled enough to continue this mission succesfully. This is more consistent with being a fanatical and blind follower of Danzo.

If you believe that Itachi was rational and controlled, than the only thing that fits his actions is either a direct attack on him, or a fanatical loyalty to Danzo/Root.

Second option is more likely, but don't forget that Itachi was a part of ANBU at the time as well.

 

[repulse]

You can't have it both ways. Either Itachi was coldly, rationally and unemotionally considering all options, or he was trying to save his brother at all costs (even sacrificing his own parents).

In the first case, why didn't Itachi choose to cooperate with the Third? More than that: he could have hidden Sasuke or given him to the Third for protection, if he was just trying to choose the most rational option. Then, he could have tried to do whatever was possible to stop the rebellion. This might have ended in a war anyway, but at least he would be doing his best to protect both his family and the village.

In the second case, if Itachi was just reacting out of fear for his brother and for the village, his actions make a little more sense. A terrified person does irrational things. However: Itachi was already a spy (double agent), and he was controlled enough to continue this mission succesfully. This is more consistent with being a fanatical and blind follower of Danzo.

If you believe that Itachi was rational and controlled, than the only thing that fits his actions is either a direct attack on him, or a fanatical loyalty to Danzo/Root.

check out VisionOfDisorder's response. It's helpful :ice:

 

[Stark]

It's been cleared up already stop with this.

 

[drslim]

It's been cleared up already stop with this.

If you think that it has been cleared up, then you did not read my post. I asked two questions:

1) what was the Uchiha's plan?
2) what motivated Itachi to kill all his family and clan?

The second question got much of a response in this thread. But the first one did not, and without a good explanation the whole story does not make sense.

 

[drslim]

Some people won't be satisfied with any explaination, Itachi's drive to protect the leaf comes from his closeness to Shisui, and his own peceful nature (both of which were directly mentioned this week.) Shisui was Itachi's older brother-firgure. And Itachi promised him to protect the leaf. This is because unlike most of the Uchiha clan, Itachi, Shisui, (And Izuna in the past) weren't consumed by their families curse of hatred. Madara was. And so has been Sasuke. But Itachi and Izuna both loved their brothers no matter how consumed they became, and both made huge sacrifices for them. Itachi's happened to involve savng his little brother AND the village. So he was able to fulfil his promise both to Shisui, and to Sasuke (to keep him safe) in one fell swoop, by sacrificing any chance he could have had at a normal, peceful life. making sense?

This makes a lot of sense, and may explain Itachi's motivation, if you accept just one important assumption: that there was no other option.

I think people in this thread (and in other recent ones) suggested quite a bit of options.

1) Itachi cooperating with Hiruzen to stop the coup
2) Itachi capturing coup leaders using Tsukuyomi (like Shisui tried with KM. Nice point in another thread: Danzo stopped him, because he wanted to get rid of the Uchiha)
3) Itachi hiding Sasuke (under the protection of Hiruzen) and then trying to stop the rebellion

All of the motivation you describe is enought to guarantee that Itachi would oppose the plans of his clan. But that does not mean that he had to kill them, unless he saw no other choice. Itachi was not stupid. So what is missing?

 

[Urda]

If you think that it has been cleared up, then you did not read my post. I asked two questions:

1) what was the Uchiha's plan?
2) what motivated Itachi to kill all his family and clan?

The second question got much of a response in this thread. But the first one did not, and without a good explanation the whole story does not make sense.

I'll give thoughts on the first question as the second question has clearly been discussed throughly by other members.

The Uchiha' plan was a simple one; It was to rebel against Konoha. When the Kyuubi attack, 16 years before the series start, it gave speculation amongest the counsel that the Uchiha were behind the attack. Evidence of this, is when they were absent during the Kyuubi attack. Their motive was known.

Many forget that it was Madara who spark their motive the moment he sign the treaty and joined alongside Hashirama, however, Madara wasn't the one for it, but for the sake of his clan; he had to. During that period, before Madara's departure, he had talk with his clan to reconsider a "Non-alliance" with Senju, but they refuse so he left alone. Long story short, Hashirama's battle with Madara gave warning that the Uchiha could rebel and from that point on... blah blah blah... (You know). This was all explained, by Tobi.

Now, their plans were unknown, but I could theorize that the Uchiha's, unknowingly of the Kyuubi attack, tried to take advantage of the situation to better aid them in thier rebellion. How infomed that were could be speculation of friends they had within the ANBU, or could be because of the Kyuubi unexpected attack.

IDK, it's just my thoughts on it.

 

[drslim]

I'll give thoughts on the first question as the second question has clearly been discussed throughly by other members.

The Uchiha' plan was a simple one; It was to rebel against Konoha. When the Kyuubi attack, 16 years before the series start, it gave speculation amongest the counsel that the Uchiha were behind the attack. Evidence of this, is when they were absent during the Kyuubi attack. Their motive was known.

Many forget that it was Madara who spark their motive the moment he sign the treaty and joined alongside Hashirama, however, Madara wasn't the one for it, but for the sake of his clan; he had to. During that period, before Madara's departure, he had talk with his clan to reconsider a "Non-alliance" with Senju, but they refuse so he left alone. Long story short, Hashirama's battle with Madara gave warning that the Uchiha could rebel and from that point on... blah blah blah... (You know). This was all explained, by Tobi.

Now, their plans were unknown, but I could theorize that the Uchiha's, unknowingly of the Kyuubi attack, tried to take advantage of the situation to better aid them in thier rebellion. How infomed that were could be speculation of friends they had within the ANBU, or could be because of the Kyuubi unexpected attack.

IDK, it's just my thoughts on it.

Well, thanks for your thoughts.

However, I do not see how all this adds up to any plan at all. You are basically talking about the motives that the Uchiha had to rebel. Even if we agree that these motives were adequate (I am not so sure, the Uchiha were still quite well off in Konoha), then this does not explain why they thought that they had a chance to win.

Unless you think that the whole Uchiha rebellion was a suicide mission. I cannot agree. The Uchiha had kids, and must have realized that they would be threatened.

This brings back my original point: we have no good explanation of the Uchiha rebellion. I wonder if we will ever get one. Perhaps if Sasuke talks to the Konoha elders...

 

[Stark]

Just stop it

1: They were being segregated and mistreated

2: To save the village, and prevent war