[Theory] The truth about the wood style and Ashura

[jazza1017]

It doesn't really seem right that Hashirama was able to attain Woodstyle from the Uzumaki clan.

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As you can see in the image shown, he is shown using woodstyle before he even became the leader of his clan. When the Senju made a peace treaty with the Uzumaki clan, he was already the leader and we can presume he married Mito Uzumaki as part of that treaty as well. Also in the middle pannel, he seems to be in his late teens or 20's, so wood-style could be a power he manage to attain later on which blossomed within him. Unlike other blood-line limit users like Haku for example, they have been shown to use their abilities from very young children where as Hashirama actually started using the ability from a much later age. So it seems he attained the ability through other means as it was impossible for him to attain the ability from the Uzumaki clan supposedly due to its time frame. But then again, we really need more information before we can come up with more accurate theories as Kishi really hasn't revealed much about woodstyle.

(Note: Sorry I couldn't get image in in english, but here is the link to the chapter page)

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[Byron123]

On the first sentence I put in bold, have you seen any of Hashirama descendant having Mokuton? In the manga, Mokuton is not a KKG. rather, it is considered as KKG. Even if the manga did not say that, it is pretty easy to verify that it is not inherited by blood.

Well dust release is also considered a kekkei tota and even if it wasn't passed down on a descendant, Muu was capable of teaching it to Ohnoki.

It doesn't really seem right that Hashirama was able to attain Woodstyle from the Uzumaki clan.

You must be registered for see images

As you can see in the image shown, he is shown using woodstyle before he even became the leader of his clan. When the Senju made a peace treaty with the Uzumaki clan, he was already the leader and we can presume he married Mito Uzumaki as part of that treaty as well. Also in the middle pannel, he seems to be in his late teens or 20's, so wood-style could be a power he manage to attain later on which blossomed within him. Unlike other blood-line limit users like Haku for example, they have been shown to use their abilities from very young children where as Hashirama actually started using the ability from a much later age. So it seems he attained the ability through other means as it was impossible for him to attain the ability from the Uzumaki clan supposedly due to its time frame. But then again, we really need more information before we can come up with more accurate theories as Kishi really hasn't revealed much about woodstyle.

(Note: Sorry I couldn't get image in in english, but here is the link to the chapter page)

You must be registered for see links

I had also thought about this panel but then again we can't be sure as for when he was actually married Mito or if Uzumaki gave him ths ability and they were later married. What you say about Hashirama not unlocking this ability only furthers my opinion that he acquired this ability artificially rather than naturally.

 

[minamoto]

About mokuton I disagree about not being a kkg, here is its definition:
"Kekkei genkai (血継限界; Literally meaning "a technique limited to inheritance by blood" or "Bloodline Limit") are abilities passed down genetically within specific clans. It's possible for a shinobi to have more than one of these abilities. Kekkei genkai abilities that work via the user's eye are called dōjutsu. Other kekkei genkai include mixing one type of elemental chakra with another, creating a new one unique to the users, which is usually impossible for normal ninja, or other bodily manipulations that are usually unachievable by normal standards"

Besides, I think that here you self-contradicted yourself. At one point you say that that KKG are called also techniques which are created by the mix of other 2 elements because it's considered extremely difficult and yet disprove them, the mokuton, the lava and especially Jinton while the latter is Kekkei Tota.

As for Ashura's reincarnation thing, I have my doubts. Ashura was depicted only once in a fighting scene and that was when he was in cloak. If what you say is correct, then I'm sure that Kishi would have depicted him using it to give a solution once and for all. But no, instead, he prefered to leave it that way. It's just too coincidential to be merely something that happened by luck. Had someone before Hashirama had it, even before Konoha's creation, and had that someone been from senju clan, then it goes without saying that it would have been known, however, no such document exists and everyone regards Mokuton as Hashirama's original technique.

As for the logic of if a jonin can have 2 elements then someone at naruto's level can have 5 again is very relative because no matter how gifted you can be, you need to spend years to get all the elements, take for example Hiruzen, it's not power= more elements but rather how much time are you willing to spend to learn them. Hypothetically, a jonin can learn more of them but maybe they won't be on a good level due to the lack of mastering over them.

What you say about Tsunade and Hiruzen is also very irrational. So on one hand we have a young naruto who, according to you, is fully capable of learning such a powerful technique, which, like sharingan, can also tame the beasts, yet those 2 hokages only care for a mere sharingan? At any point, if they needed a teacher for him, then Tenzo could have done it since he had mastered it but no a hokage with such knowledge over jutsu as Hiruzen didn't even think of it.

And again about KKG, your only proof supposedly of mokuton not being one is that Hashirama learned how to control it but can you show any scans which prove that he didn't get it ex machina, by birth? The definition you gave only covers partially what KKG really is while mixing elements which for normal people is also something almost impossible, can also be considered as such. Based on the latter part of this definition, mokuton is KKG.

For further comfirmation by manga itself check this chapter

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and specifically the 4 following pages, that's a manga fact.



Well Madara can very well know more of it since he managed to gain access to it at the end of the day. Indeed, about Hashirama you're correct, however is there another statement in which mokuton is connected to any other senju? Nope! Besides, if Kishi wanted to clear the connection between wood style and ashura's reincarnation, then he would have depicted him using it against Indra, not by using his cloak only.

wow!!..so u revived a dead thread and at the same time criticize me for not letting MY LAST AMAZING TOBIDARA thread die??!!....WOW JUST WOW !!

 

[Mr Hiru]

I thought that only Ashura's transmigrants could use Mokuton...

 

[Byron123]

wow!!..so u revived a dead thread and at the same time criticize me for not letting MY LAST AMAZING TOBIDARA thread die??!!....WOW JUST WOW !!

Lol don't you even compare me to the likes of you. Veritas had created a thread about the same subject and so I asked his opinion about mine since I respiect him very much as a fellow theorist. As for your tobidara thread, I don't revive insane stuff like yours, nor it has become my obsession.

I thought that only Ashura's transmigrants could use Mokuton...

Well that's what Kishi wants us to believe but tell me, do you remember Ashura using it in any instance?

 

[Byron123]

wow!!..so u revived a dead thread and at the same time criticize me for not letting MY LAST AMAZING TOBIDARA thread die??!!....WOW JUST WOW !!

Lol don't you even compare me to the likes of you. Veritas had created a thread about the same subject and so I asked his opinion about mine since I respiect him very much as a fellow theorist. As for your tobidara thread, I don't revive insane stuff like yours, nor it has become my obsession.

P.S Something that will make you extremely happy: I completely lost my interest in your theories so from now onwards you won't hear from me never again in your threads, surely you must have seen that in 2 days I didn't post even one comment in them, I expect you to do the same.

I thought that only Ashura's transmigrants could use Mokuton...

Well that's what Kishi wants us to believe but tell me, do you remember Ashura using it in any instance?

 

[Mr Hiru]

Lol don't you even compare me to the likes of you. Veritas had created a thread about the same subject and so I asked his opinion about mine since I respiect him very much as a fellow theorist. As for your tobidara thread, I don't revive insane stuff like yours, nor it has become my obsession.


Well that's what Kishi wants us to believe but tell me, do you remember Ashura using it in any instance?

Absense of proof doesn't mean impossibility, that's a fallacy. So you should also take care with that assumption.

 

[Byron123]

Absense of proof doesn't mean impossibility, that's a fallacy. So you should also take care with that assumption.

Lol ofc, If I were to base my theory only on that, then I would be a complete idiot. That's why I also talked about Hagoromo's reaction and also in the general difference in power between Hashirama and Madara but most importantly about Uzumaki's mysterious annihilation. Wouldn't you find it fitting to see that Uzumaki were destroyed for similar reasons to Uchiha? Both of them were feared, the difference is that no one ever elaborated on what they exactly feared, aside from sealings.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Lol ofc, If I was to base my theory only on that then I would be a complete idiot. That's why I also talked about Hagoromo's reaction and also in the general the difference in power between Hashirama and Madara but most importantly about Uzumaki's mysterious annihilation. Wouldn't you find it fitting to see that Uzumaki were destroyed for similar reasons like Uchiha? Both of them were feared, the difference is that no one ever elaborated on what they exactly feared, aside from sealings.

There is a huge similarity, but my statement about Ashura's transmigrant has a logic behind.

1) Senju DNA + Uchiha DNA does not equal to Rinnegan. It was proven when Hagoromo said that this power could be only awakened by the special case of Ashura and Indra's chakra being mixed. Not any Uchiha/Senju could awake the Rinnegan.

2) I can't prove Ashura using it on any instance, but I can tell that every person who had wielded his chakra (his spirit) had used Mokuton techniques to some extent.

- Senju Hashirama (obviously)
- Tenzou/Yamato (who had Hashirama's DNA, ergo, Hashirama's Chakra)
- Naruto (who injected yang energy into Tenzou/Yamato's Mokuton after adquiring KCM, was able to manipulate his Mokuton, and also when he used the Yang Rasengan against the Zetsus during the war)

No need to say that Naruto now is even able to use other Kekkei Genkai thanks to the Bijuus inside him.

 

[Byron123]

There is a huge similarity, but my statement about Ashura's transmigrant has a logic behind.

1) Senju DNA + Uchiha DNA does not equal to Rinnegan. It was proven when Hagoromo said that this power could be only awakened by the special case of Ashura and Indra's chakra being mixed. Not any Uchiha/Senju could awake the Rinnegan.

2) I can't prove Ashura using it on any instance, but I can tell that every person who had wielded his chakra (his spirit) had used Mokuton techniques to some extent.

- Senju Hashirama (obviously)
- Tenzou/Yamato (who had Hashirama's DNA, ergo, Hashirama's Chakra)
- Naruto (who injected yang energy into Tenzou/Yamato's Mokuton after adquiring KCM, was able to manipulate his Mokuton, and also when he used the Yang Rasengan against the Zetsus during the war)

No need to say that Naruto now is even able to use other Kekkei Genkai thanks to the Bijuus inside him.

1) Totally agree

2) Here comes the tricky part, what you proved is that hashirama could indeed use mokuton supposedly because of Ashura's chakra howevever, if that hypothesis is wrong, and there is indeed another source of Hashirama's power, then all the people who're connected to him (Danzo as well I would like to include), all of them can use mokuton because they have hashirama's chakra and not Ashura's.


However, there is another possible scenario. Hashirama might indeed use mokuton because of Ashura but indirectly. That being said, Ashura's chakra is essential because it grants you great life force in order for you to use it but at the end of the day the process of unlocking it might be completely different. And here comes uzumaki and their peculiar sealings.

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

Actually the more I think of it, the more I believe that mokuton derives from another source, other than Ashura ( uzumaki specifically). If you think about it, it has been stated many times taht Madara was never capable of defeating Hashirama and that he was always losing to him. However, the 2 transmigrants are supposed to be equally powerful. Therefore we see here an imbalance in this whole equation since Hashirama was always superior which strengthens my belief that mokuton is indeed an external force.

I completely Agree

 

[Angelic.]

but the idea of sharingan being able to control bijuu is the same as mokuton. thats an equivilent btwn hashi and mads.

hm indra lost against ashura so its not necessarily true that they were equal at the end. madara wanting to surpass hashi was achieved when he got rinne (hagos chakra)

 

[Mr Hiru]

2) Here comes the tricky part, what you proved is that hashirama could indeed use mokuton supposedly because of Ashura's chakra howevever, if that hypothesis is wrong, and there is indeed another source of Hashirama's power, then all the people who're connected to him (Danzo as well I would like to include), all of them can use mokuton because they have hashirama's chakra and not Ashura's.

However, there is another possible scenario. Hashirama might indeed use mokuton because of Ashura but indirectly. That being said, Ashura's chakra is essential because it grants you great life force in order for you to use it but at the end of the day the process of unlocking it might be completely different. And here comes uzumaki and their peculiar sealings.

That might be the case as well. In fact, it makes sense, since the Uzumaki (no need to say that I don't need proof for this statement) is the Yang half of Hamura's offpring.

The Yin is always related to Doujutsu and perception, and the Yin half of Hamura's offspring are the Hyuuga.

In any case, the scenario you're representing in this post (which is very likely) speaks about the similarities between the Uzumaki and the Senju Clan (vitality, yang, lifeforce).

This is the reason of why I say that only Ashura's transmigrants could use Mokuton... because only they can use the Yang energy for wood to bloom from earth and water. So, indirectly speaking, the scenario of Ashura's transmigrants being able to use life energy is the best of cases.

PS: I completely forgot that Madara used Mokuton techniques after transplanting Hashirama's DNA in his body and awakening the "Rinnegan". It's not strange, really... even Obito, who did not awake the Rinnegan during his rehabilitation, was able to use Mokuton Techniques thanks to Hashirama's Chakra/Implants.

 

[Byron123]

but the idea of sharingan being able to control bijuu is the same as mokuton. thats an equivilent btwn hashi and mads.

hm indra lost against ashura so its not necessarily true that they were equal at the end. madara wanting to surpass hashi was achieved when he got rinne (hagos chakra)

What we know about Indra is that he "lost" the battle for successorship but has it ever or anywhere pointed specifically that he was losing in general against Ashura aka being the weaker? And we don't talk only about the altest battle. Take for example Naruto and Sasuke. The dynamics between these 2 were always changing but in Hashi's and Madara's case, we see the former always being stronger than the latter.

That might be the case as well. In fact, it makes sense, since the Uzumaki (no need to say that I don't need proof for this statement) is the Yang half of Hamura's offpring.

The Yin is always related to Doujutsu and perception, and the Yin half of Hamura's offspring are the Hyuuga.

In any case, the scenario you're representing in this post (which is very likely) speaks about the similarities between the Uzumaki and the Senju Clan (vitality, yang, lifeforce).

This is the reason of why I say that only Ashura's transmigrants could use Mokuton... because only they can use the Yang energy for wood to bloom from earth and water. So, indirectly speaking, the scenario of Ashura's transmigrants being able to use life energy is the best of cases.

PS: I completely forgot that Madara used Mokuton techniques after transplanting Hashirama's DNA in his body and awakening the "Rinnegan". It's not strange, really... even Obito, who did not awake the Rinnegan during his rehabilitation, was able to use Mokuton Techniques thanks to Hashirama's Chakra/Implants.

I can't disagree with what you're saying.. After all, you have the manga on your side since I'm trying to disprove it by very indirect arguments, still I believe that you can see why I have doubts.

 

[24farone]

Wood style is unique to hashirama and hashirama only. From all the ashura's we've seen him hashirama and naruto they all have their own avatar thing powerful enough to counter a perfect susanoo hashirama has his Buddhist wood dragon and naruto has kurama so really what the **** is ashura's Jutsu honestly ashura is a complete mystery Indra we already know him just a baby with mangeyko susanoo probably Amaterasu and tsukoyomi

 

[Byron123]

Wood style is unique to hashirama and hashirama only. From all the ashura's we've seen him hashirama and naruto they all have their own avatar thing powerful enough to counter a perfect susanoo hashirama has his Buddhist wood dragon and naruto has kurama so really what the **** is ashura's Jutsu honestly ashura is a complete mystery Indra we already know him just a baby with mangeyko susanoo probably Amaterasu and tsukoyomi

My point exactly. All this time we were to believe that Uchiha and Senju were always equal like Yin-Yang but in Hashirama's case it was always him being superior to Madara and thus we see a disorder as far as how the whole equality thing goes. For that reason I do believe that wood style was aqcuired by Hashirama by an external source and that source may have been indeed the uzumaki or even hamura.

 

[Draxus]

I still hodd the idea that Hashirama's wood style is some how related to his senjutsu. There are some similarities between the abilities. Hopefully we'll get a flashback to how Hashi learned sage mode or what the Humid Bone Forest is about.