[Theory] The truth about the wood style and Ashura

[Byron123]

A Great Theory, makes lot of Sense. The Senju didn't have anuthing special only the strongly trained bodies. The Wood style might have actually came from The Uzumaki clan ancestor.

Thank you! Exactly! I don't mena that the uzumaki could use it freely but the fact that they had access to it and they could pass it only to those who deemed worthy via a special ritual.

 

[-ahhimane-]

Uzumaki giving the special wood ability to Hashirama doesn't fits correctly to me because there exist only one original user from Senjus but not a single one from the Uzumakis even when they have the strong chakra. It was a nice read though.

IMO, Hagoromo = Juubi's eyes and Spiritual energy
His brother = Juubi's body and if Kaguya had Byakugan then that's too.
Hagoromo son Indra = Uchihas (spiritual)
Ashura = Uzumaki (spiritual energy and strong life force)
His brother's son = Senju with strong life force and physical energy.
his brother's son/daughter = Hyuuga with ocular powers (physical but less compared to Senju)

Similar to how the chakras of Indra and Ashura were passed down to Sasuke and Naruto. the wood ability of the Juubi through Hagormo's brother was passed down to one of the Senju over generations. But Hyuugas might not have anything special because they inherited kaguya's default eyes even before eating the fruit.

 

[Byron123]

Uzumaki giving the special wood ability to Hashirama doesn't fits correctly to me because there exist only one original user from Senjus but not a single one from the Uzumakis even when they have the strong chakra. It was a nice read though.

IMO, Hagoromo = Juubi's eyes and Spiritual energy
His brother = Juubi's body and if Kaguya had Byakugan then that's too.
Hagoromo son Indra = Uchihas (spiritual)
Ashura = Uzumaki (spiritual energy and strong life force)
His brother's son = Senju with strong life force and physical energy.
his brother's son/daughter = Hyuuga with ocular powers (physical but less compared to Senju)

Similar to how the chakras of Indra and Ashura were passed down to Sasuke and Naruto. the wood ability of the Juubi through Hagormo's brother was passed down to one of the Senju over generations. But Hyuugas might not have anything special because they inherited kaguya's default eyes even before eating the fruit.

When I say that the hagoromo's brother as uzumaki ancestor passed on wood style on his clan I don't mean that his clan could use it freely as an ability but being a clan of priests, they deemed this ability forbidden and then sealed it and from that point on they only gave it to whoever they thought that he would have such character that wouldn't try to make abuse of his power and would only use it to seek peace.

 

[Transcendence]

There are some clever deductions here, but I believe you're wrong as to how much of the Juubi that Hagoromo had. It's most likely that he never had the whole thing. We've seen that with Kurama, it can exist separately regardless of the composition. As for what both brothers inherited, they most likely had the same powers, given that they both inherited Kaguya's chakra use and they had similar chakra shrouds surrounding them.

As for wood style; it's truly an anomaly. But given the inference made by Hagoromo, that Ashura had to train and unlock similar power to his brother, it may have been through that. I can't give a definitive answer regarding it, since we need a bit more information before we can fully speculate an obvious conclusion.

 

[Byron123]

There are some clever deductions here, but I believe you're wrong as to how much of the Juubi that Hagoromo had. It's most likely that he never had the whole thing. We've seen that with Kurama, it can exist separately regardless of the composition. As for what both brothers inherited, they most likely had the same powers, given that they both inherited Kaguya's chakra use and they had similar chakra shrouds surrounding them.

As for wood style; it's truly an anomaly. But given the inference made by Hagoromo, that Ashura had to train and unlock similar power to his brother, it may have been through that. I can't give a definitive answer regarding it, since we need a bit more information before we can fully speculate an obvious conclusion.

You have a point, in a any case, thank you for your opinion I greatly appreaciate constructive critisism. As for what you said about Hagoromo's brother, I neve suggested that he had the whole thing inside of him but exactly because he had half of it, he could pass on to the next generation half of its traits, like the sage, which in his case would be Juubi's body and thus its mokuton.

 

[beast7960]

Maybe the juubi's power was split when they split and sealed it. The sage acquired the eyes of the juubi, and it was passed down to indra, leaving ashura with the lifeforce/chakra of the juubi and sage. While the sage's brother inherited the body of the juubi (woodstyle), which was passed down to one of his sons, while the other son inherited a lesser version of the juubi's eyes. Same as what the guy with the red text said.

 

[boshans]

Where has it EVER been said that Ashura can use Mokuton? Where are you getting this from? The sage said NOTHING about Ashura being able to use Mokuton, the only thing we have seen him do is create a Bijuu like being, created with his insanely powerful chakra, Yang chakra probably. Plus as I'm sure you know by now, the Juubi was only sealed in Hagoromo, not his brother. Still, that doesn't disprove anything, Indra and Ashura were his biological sons, he didn't make them with Creation of All Things, so Indra inherited the eyes and Ashura inherited the body naturally, so if Ashura could use Mokuton it came from his father. Which possibly came from the juubi. We still don't know for sure if Indra and Ashura's power if from the juubi inside of Hagoromo, or just because their Hagoromo's sons, who in turn is Kaguya's son, who ate the fruit, which would make them all insanely powerful anyway.

 

[Byron123]

Where has it EVER been said that Ashura can use Mokuton? Where are you getting this from? The sage said NOTHING about Ashura being able to use Mokuton, the only thing we have seen him do is create a Bijuu like being, created with his insanely powerful chakra, Yang chakra probably. Plus as I'm sure you know by now, the Juubi was only sealed in Hagoromo, not his brother. Still, that doesn't disprove anything, Indra and Ashura were his biological sons, he didn't make them with Creation of All Things, so Indra inherited the eyes and Ashura inherited the body naturally, so if Ashura could use Mokuton it came from his father. Which possibly came from the juubi. We still don't know for sure if Indra and Ashura's power if from the juubi inside of Hagoromo, or just because their Hagoromo's sons, who in turn is Kaguya's son, who ate the fruit, which would make them all insanely powerful anyway.

I wrote this prediction before the official translation came out but some parts can still fit. In any case, I never believed that Ashura can certainly use the mokuton but I took it as a fact since the majority of people will think of it in that way since eyes represent the spiritual energy while body the physical. In any case, my problem with hagoromo is that the way he talked abotu mokuton or better the way he left it out by talking only about his eyes, made me believe that acquisition of mokuton wasn't something that he had in mind and that's why he didn't make a big deal of it. Therefore, I think that mokuton might haven't come from the sage but from another source.

 

[boshans]

I wrote this prediction before the official translation came out but some parts can still fit. In any case, I never believed that Ashura can certainly use the mokuton but I took it as a fact since the majority of people will think of it in that way since eyes represent the spiritual energy while body the physical. In any case, my problem with hagoromo is that the way he talked abotu mokuton or better the way he left it out by talking only about his eyes, made me believe that acquisition of mokuton wasn't something that he had in mind and that's why he didn't make a big deal of it. Therefore, I think that mokuton might haven't come from the sage but from another source.

I agree...I think it's all just weird actually, the way it seems now, only Hashirama can use mokuton, ever. Why is he really the only one who can ever use mokuton? All mokuton is is mixing water and earth, why is that SO hard that he is the only ninja ever to be able to do that? I mean I guess you need to add yang into it to use it at hashirama's level, but still. Actually adding yang into it makes sense, now that i think about it, to why only he can do it. Hashi was probably another reincarnation of Ashura, and he was born with the ability to fuse water and earth to make wood, but took it to the next level and added yang because he had Ashura's chakra also. Since no one else is Ashura, no one else can do mokuton like he can. Yamato doesn't really count, sure he can use mokuton, technically, but it's nothing like the real mokuton, it doesn't add life to it. Why Madara can use it at the level that Hashi can with just his dna though is a little weird, since yamato is basically all hashi dna and he can't do the same. I guess it's because Madara is probably Indra, and Indra and Ashura are equal's, so he can do it also.

 

[Byron123]

I agree...I think it's all just weird actually, the way it seems now, only Hashirama can use mokuton, ever. Why is he really the only one who can ever use mokuton? All mokuton is is mixing water and earth, why is that SO hard that he is the only ninja ever to be able to do that? I mean I guess you need to add yang into it to use it at hashirama's level, but still. Actually adding yang into it makes sense, now that i think about it, to why only he can do it. Hashi was probably another reincarnation of Ashura, and he was born with the ability to fuse water and earth to make wood, but took it to the next level and added yang because he had Ashura's chakra also. Since no one else is Ashura, no one else can do mokuton like he can. Yamato doesn't really count, sure he can use mokuton, technically, but it's nothing like the real mokuton, it doesn't add life to it. Why Madara can use it at the level that Hashi can with just his dna though is a little weird, since yamato is basically all hashi dna and he can't do the same. I guess it's because Madara is probably Indra, and Indra and Ashura are equal's, so he can do it also.

Exactly the point is though that this chapter preety much made it look like Ashura didn't have the mokuton or at least not for all his life. I mean just consider this, before we saw the battle between Indra and Ashura, everyone expcted that their fight would be a Perfect Susanoo against a mokuton master. If Kishi really did plan to tell us that mokuton does derive that simply from Ashura he would make it obvious by putting him using it aganst his brother or at least would put Hagoromo saying something more specific about Ashura's power. I'll stick to my choice in this one: mokuton derives from uzumaki, maybe indirectly from a sealing of them but certainly it does, and hagoromo's brother was uzumaki's ancestor.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Isn't it stated Hashirama was the only one to ever manifest mokuton? Which would mean Ashura didn't have it?

 

[Byron123]

Isn't it stated Hashirama was the only one to ever manifest mokuton? Which would mean Ashura didn't have it?

Doesn't this sound strange to you? That's indeed what it has been stated and that's why I made this theory, because I find it awfully coincidential considering the fact that mokuton represents Juubi's physical power while the rinnegan its spiritual. Please read my theory with an open mind.

 

[Ψ Veritas Ψ]

How Amazing that we have come to similar beliefs, with slightly different Conclusive-Possibilities This is indeed A Great thread, and anyone who didnt read it missed a Good Deal
Regarding Hamura, as you know I also believe him a possibility, and I also came to the conclusion that it must have been someone close to the Senjus, your theory of uzumaki passing it down makes even more sense
and I too believe hamura was the BODY.

You are an incredible Theorist my brotha, and just looking at it, reminds of those of those theories i made that people denied which actually came true
i suspect at least part of this is true ^_^

 

[flyboyissac]

false ashrua didn't have wood style reason, that would make him so overpowered we should wonder how can indra survive e with just P.S

 

[Byron123]

How Amazing that we have come to similar beliefs, with slightly different Conclusive-Possibilities This is indeed A Great thread, and anyone who didnt read it missed a Good Deal
Regarding Hamura, as you know I also believe him a possibility, and I also came to the conclusion that it must have been someone close to the Senjus, your theory of uzumaki passing it down makes even more sense
and I too believe hamura was the BODY.

You are an incredible Theorist my brotha, and just looking at it, reminds of those of those theories i made that people denied which actually came true
i suspect at least part of this is true ^_^

Thanks man, such a compliment coming a fellow great theorist as you means great deal to me and that's why I was so eager for you to read it In any case, on topic, the main reason for which I don't believe that Ashura had it is that the only time Kishi gave him time to depict him in action, he wasn't using it, it's like he's directing us towards that direction XD

false ashrua didn't have wood style reason, that would make him so overpowered we should wonder how can indra survive e with just P.S

Lol so your argument is only based on plot? Lol there are deeper reasons for that. The only time Kishi depcited him in action, was at that only panel. Such a special technique which is directly connected to Shinju's nature, do you think that Hashirama using it only because of reasons of plot while its first descendant didn't, makes sense? That's plain stupid.

 

[NaruSasuRival]

I have thought of that page but what confuses me is that the sage did not react to mokuton as if it was something he had. He only spoke about powerful eyes, it looked as if that was all he expected from his sons. Besides, if we do take your scenario as being the possible case then answer me this: why apart from Ashura the only other persn capable of using it was Hashirama? If it all was a matter of power then surely others before him should have been able to use it, even to a lower extent like Zetsu and Tezno do. But no, nothing ever was stated about anyone else. The only person about whom we know with certainty that possessed it and that it was his own was Hashirama and that man is coincidentally the only one we know of being in marriage with an uzumaki priestess. I don't know about you but something rings hollow to me with all these coincidences.

I have been reading most of these discussion, and there is something that you need to understand here before you continue on making this theory count:

(1) Mokuton is not a KKG. Rather, it is a jutsu that is made by mixing earth element and water element in an unknown ratio. As kakashi and yamato explained, since the process of combining two elements is almost impossible, this kind of techniques are considered as KKG. See, Mokuton, lava, Onoiki's Jinton are not KKG. They are jutsus that anyone who has the physical and spiritual requirement can mange to learn and perform. Calling Mokuton a KKG is a widely made mistake by the fanbase, and they continue to call it this way even though none of Hashirama's descendant was able to obtain it.

(2) The idea that nobody had Mokuton before Hashirama is a relative fact. It is valid only from the creation of Konoha as a village. Note that every history we have on the Senju and every intel is realtive to the date of birth of Konoha. I am 100% that before Hashirama and the creation of Konoha, there was people in the Senju clan who had Mokuton. The reason again is that Mokuton is not a KKG. It is a jutsu that many people have been trying to possess but were unable to achieve in the current era of the Narutoverse.


Now, in case you disagree with the above, I can give you fact for point (1), and I can ask you evidences that prove that Hiruzen or the Shinobi alliance know every secret about the Senju clan of the forest before the creation of Konoha.

On topic, I believe that the key to achieving Mokuton is to be a reincarnation of Ashura. The amount of life force they have a long with mastery of chakra control should be enough to perform Mokuton successfully if someone who know the Jutsu can teach them. In case you ask if every reincarnation has earth element and water element, I will say yes. I am 100% positive that a shinobi at Naruto's level with his huge chakra pool and life force can possess any of the 5 elements. This can be proven by Kakashi's statement that every jonin who has advance control can achieve at least 2 elements. We also know that people like Ino, choji and Shikamaru were able to perform earth element Jutsu when they were told the basis during the war. This was the confirmation of the fact that every shinobi has at least trace of every elements in his body. It make even sense because the body of a human contains all elements within it including electricity. The only challenge is how to draw each element, and how much a shinobi can draw.

Why Naruto never did Mokuton? Well, he never learned it. he never had any parent who would lead him to anything. Rather than teaching Naruto Mokuton, Hiruzen was rather concerned about how to control him with Sharingan, and Tsunade was concerned about controlling Kyuubi with Sharingan. The fact that Naruto can regenerate and have an impact on Mokuton is the evidence that he has every element that can cause Mokuton to grow - life force and the element necessary.

Again, I am saying that Mokuton is not a KKG. It is a jutsus that anyone who has the requirement can perform. It is considered as KKG because it is difficult to see people who can perform it. A proper KKG is a jutsu that is passed down by blood at birth and does not require any training to appear. Rather, it is only controlled.

 

[xInGoLFx]

Didn't Madara said something like "... You don't Even have the Mokuton..." while he trash-talked tsunade? Could mean he knows more senju with this ability. We don't know hashiramas son/daughter, tsunades father/mother, for example. Well thought theory but in the end I can't remember any Statement that hashirama was the only Person with this ability. Correct me if i'm wrong

 

[Byron123]

I have been reading most of these discussion, and there is something that you need to understand here before you continue on making this theory count:

(1) Mokuton is not a KKG. Rather, it is a jutsu that is made by mixing earth element and water element in an unknown ratio. As kakashi and yamato explained, since the process of combining two elements is almost impossible, this kind of techniques are considered as KKG. See, Mokuton, lava, Onoiki's Jinton are not KKG. They are jutsus that anyone who has the physical and spiritual requirement can mange to learn and perform. Calling Mokuton a KKG is a widely made mistake by the fanbase, and they continue to call it this way even though none of Hashirama's descendant was able to obtain it.

(2) The idea that nobody had Mokuton before Hashirama is a relative fact. It is valid only from the creation of Konoha as a village. Note that every history we have on the Senju and every intel is realtive to the date of birth of Konoha. I am 100% that before Hashirama and the creation of Konoha, there was people in the Senju clan who had Mokuton. The reason again is that Mokuton is not a KKG. It is a jutsu that many people have been trying to possess but were unable to achieve in the current era of the Narutoverse.


Now, in case you disagree with the above, I can give you fact for point (1), and I can ask you evidences that prove that Hiruzen or the Shinobi alliance know every secret about the Senju clan of the forest before the creation of Konoha.

On topic, I believe that the key to achieving Mokuton is to be a reincarnation of Ashura. The amount of life force they have a long with mastery of chakra control should be enough to perform Mokuton successfully if someone who know the Jutsu can teach them. In case you ask if every reincarnation has earth element and water element, I will say yes. I am 100% positive that a shinobi at Naruto's level with his huge chakra pool and life force can possess any of the 5 elements. This can be proven by Kakashi's statement that every jonin who has advance control can achieve at least 2 elements. We also know that people like Ino, choji and Shikamaru were able to perform earth element Jutsu when they were told the basis during the war. This was the confirmation of the fact that every shinobi has at least trace of every elements in his body. It make even sense because the body of a human contains all elements within it including electricity. The only challenge is how to draw each element, and how much a shinobi can draw.

Why Naruto never did Mokuton? Well, he never learned it. he never had any parent who would lead him to anything. Rather than teaching Naruto Mokuton, Hiruzen was rather concerned about how to control him with Sharingan, and Tsunade was concerned about controlling Kyuubi with Sharingan. The fact that Naruto can regenerate and have an impact on Mokuton is the evidence that he has every element that can cause Mokuton to grow - life force and the element necessary.

Again, I am saying that Mokuton is not a KKG. It is a jutsus that anyone who has the requirement can perform. It is considered as KKG because it is difficult to see people who can perform it. A proper KKG is a jutsu that is passed down by blood at birth and does not require any training to appear. Rather, it is only controlled.

About mokuton I disagree about not being a kkg, here is its definition:
"Kekkei genkai (血継限界; Literally meaning "a technique limited to inheritance by blood" or "Bloodline Limit") are abilities passed down genetically within specific clans. It's possible for a shinobi to have more than one of these abilities. Kekkei genkai abilities that work via the user's eye are called dōjutsu. Other kekkei genkai include mixing one type of elemental chakra with another, creating a new one unique to the users, which is usually impossible for normal ninja, or other bodily manipulations that are usually unachievable by normal standards"

Besides, I think that here you self-contradicted yourself. At one point you say that that KKG are called also techniques which are created by the mix of other 2 elements because it's considered extremely difficult and yet disprove them, the mokuton, the lava and especially Jinton while the latter is Kekkei Tota.

As for Ashura's reincarnation thing, I have my doubts. Ashura was depicted only once in a fighting scene and that was when he was in cloak. If what you say is correct, then I'm sure that Kishi would have depicted him using it to give a solution once and for all. But no, instead, he prefered to leave it that way. It's just too coincidential to be merely something that happened by luck. Had someone before Hashirama had it, even before Konoha's creation, and had that someone been from senju clan, then it goes without saying that it would have been known, however, no such document exists and everyone regards Mokuton as Hashirama's original technique.

As for the logic of if a jonin can have 2 elements then someone at naruto's level can have 5 again is very relative because no matter how gifted you can be, you need to spend years to get all the elements, take for example Hiruzen, it's not power= more elements but rather how much time are you willing to spend to learn them. Hypothetically, a jonin can learn more of them but maybe they won't be on a good level due to the lack of mastering over them.

What you say about Tsunade and Hiruzen is also very irrational. So on one hand we have a young naruto who, according to you, is fully capable of learning such a powerful technique, which, like sharingan, can also tame the beasts, yet those 2 hokages only care for a mere sharingan? At any point, if they needed a teacher for him, then Tenzo could have done it since he had mastered it but no a hokage with such knowledge over jutsu as Hiruzen didn't even think of it.

And again about KKG, your only proof supposedly of mokuton not being one is that Hashirama learned how to control it but can you show any scans which prove that he didn't get it ex machina, by birth? The definition you gave only covers partially what KKG really is while mixing elements which for normal people is also something almost impossible, can also be considered as such. Based on the latter part of this definition, mokuton is KKG.

For further comfirmation by manga itself check this chapter

You must be registered for see links

and specifically the 4 following pages, that's a manga fact.

Didn't Madara said something like "... You don't Even have the Mokuton..." while he trash-talked tsunade? Could mean he knows more senju with this ability. We don't know hashiramas son/daughter, tsunades father/mother, for example. Well thought theory but in the end I can't remember any Statement that hashirama was the only Person with this ability. Correct me if i'm wrong

Well Madara can very well know more of it since he managed to gain access to it at the end of the day. Indeed, about Hashirama you're correct, however is there another statement in which mokuton is connected to any other senju? Nope! Besides, if Kishi wanted to clear the connection between wood style and ashura's reincarnation, then he would have depicted him using it against Indra, not by using his cloak only.

 

[Byron123]

How Amazing that we have come to similar beliefs, with slightly different Conclusive-Possibilities This is indeed A Great thread, and anyone who didnt read it missed a Good Deal
Regarding Hamura, as you know I also believe him a possibility, and I also came to the conclusion that it must have been someone close to the Senjus, your theory of uzumaki passing it down makes even more sense
and I too believe hamura was the BODY.

You are an incredible Theorist my brotha, and just looking at it, reminds of those of those theories i made that people denied which actually came true
i suspect at least part of this is true ^_^

Actually the more I think of it, the more I believe that mokuton derives from another source, other than Ashura ( uzumaki specifically). If you think about it, it has been stated many times taht Madara was never capable of defeating Hashirama and that he was always losing to him. However, the 2 transmigrants are supposed to be equally powerful. Therefore we see here an imbalance in this whole equation since Hashirama was always superior which strengthens my belief that mokuton is indeed an external force.

 

[NaruSasuRival]

About mokuton I disagree about not being a kkg, here is its definition:
"Kekkei genkai (血継限界; Literally meaning "a technique limited to inheritance by blood" or "Bloodline Limit") are abilities passed down genetically within specific clans. It's possible for a shinobi to have more than one of these abilities. Kekkei genkai abilities that work via the user's eye are called dōjutsu. Other kekkei genkai include mixing one type of elemental chakra with another, creating a new one unique to the users, which is usually impossible for normal ninja, or other bodily manipulations that are usually unachievable by normal standards"

Besides, I think that here you self-contradicted yourself. At one point you say that that KKG are called also techniques which are created by the mix of other 2 elements because it's considered extremely difficult and yet disprove them, the mokuton, the lava and especially Jinton while the latter is Kekkei Tota.

As for Ashura's reincarnation thing, I have my doubts. Ashura was depicted only once in a fighting scene and that was when he was in cloak. If what you say is correct, then I'm sure that Kishi would have depicted him using it to give a solution once and for all. But no, instead, he prefered to leave it that way. It's just too coincidential to be merely something that happened by luck. Had someone before Hashirama had it, even before Konoha's creation, and had that someone been from senju clan, then it goes without saying that it would have been known, however, no such document exists and everyone regards Mokuton as Hashirama's original technique.

As for the logic of if a jonin can have 2 elements then someone at naruto's level can have 5 again is very relative because no matter how gifted you can be, you need to spend years to get all the elements, take for example Hiruzen, it's not power= more elements but rather how much time are you willing to spend to learn them. Hypothetically, a jonin can learn more of them but maybe they won't be on a good level due to the lack of mastering over them.

What you say about Tsunade and Hiruzen is also very irrational. So on one hand we have a young naruto who, according to you, is fully capable of learning such a powerful technique, which, like sharingan, can also tame the beasts, yet those 2 hokages only care for a mere sharingan? At any point, if they needed a teacher for him, then Tenzo could have done it since he had mastered it but no a hokage with such knowledge over jutsu as Hiruzen didn't even think of it.

And again about KKG, your only proof supposedly of mokuton not being one is that Hashirama learned how to control it but can you show any scans which prove that he didn't get it ex machina, by birth? The definition you gave only covers partially what KKG really is while mixing elements which for normal people is also something almost impossible, can also be considered as such. Based on the latter part of this definition, mokuton is KKG.

For further comfirmation by manga itself check this chapter

You must be registered for see links

and specifically the 4 following pages, that's a manga fact.



Well Madara can very well know more of it since he managed to gain access to it at the end of the day. Indeed, about Hashirama you're correct, however is there another statement in which mokuton is connected to any other senju? Nope! Besides, if Kishi wanted to clear the connection between wood style and ashura's reincarnation, then he would have depicted him using it against Indra, not by using his cloak only.

On the first sentence I put in bold, have you seen any of Hashirama descendant having Mokuton? In the manga, Mokuton is not a KKG. rather, it is considered as KKG. Even if the manga did not say that, it is pretty easy to verify that it is not inherited by blood.