The True Villains

[Punk Hazard]

They aren't anti-heroes.

An antihero or antiheroine is a leading character in a story who, unlike a traditional hero, acts in an unheroic manner and lacks conventional heroic qualities such as idealism, courage and morality.

Being an antihero is just being a hero who isn't afraid to get their hands dirty, but they still have a moral compass in that they try their best not to do anything that is unnecessary.

Obito used Kurama to attack Konoha out of spite, that had nothing to do with the Moon's Eye plan. Nagato thought that bringing pain to every individual would create peace...peace out of fear. Things like this completely pass moral boundaries, especially considering there were alternatives to their choices on how to bring peace. Much of what they did was out of anger, not to help (though, helping to bring peace was the core goal).

Nagato and Obito are anti-villains at best. They can also be well-intentioned extremists.

Yup. Nagato and Obito are definitely anti-villains. Anti-heroes in the Naruto series are Sasuke and Itachi, maybe Danzo.

 

[Beans2]

Not really, pretty much every human being is born a blank slate. If there's one thing that stuck with me from psychology, our environments (along with other things) can dictate how we treat other living beings, regardless of whether we side more with light or dark.

EDIT: Oh, I'd consider characters like Obito and Nagato more as anti-heroes instead. Characters like Madara, Idk.

I disagree that people are born a blank slate. People have inherent personalities which they are born with, but they can reshape themselves. Who you are is not set in stone. Environment plays a major factor, but that's not all there is too it. Now, are people born evil? Obviously not. That is something which an individual can only make himself; personalities are not tied to being good or evil.

 

[Cunning Linguist]

Even Jeffrey Dalmer was friendly.

Ted Bundy was a Husky. I guess he was just pure evil

 

[Tennis Robot]

Even Jeffrey Dalmer was friendly.

That is reassuring honestly.

 

[Chie]

Yup. Nagato and Obito are definitely anti-villains. Anti-heroes in the Naruto series are Sasuke and Itachi, maybe Danzo.

I agree with you on that Sasuke and Itachi are anti-heroes, but not so sure about Danzo.

The latter is a little more complex than to group in one category given his actions and motivations. He did protect the village, in that he didn't take chances and had the tendency to kill off all threats. Though, this is still too extreme. I'd just say well-intentioned extremist.

 

[SusanooKyuubi]

I disagree that people are born a blank slate. People have inherent personalities which they are born with, but they can reshape themselves. Who you are is not set in stone. Environment plays a major factor, but that's not all there is too it. Now, are people born evil? Obviously not. That is something which an individual can only make himself; personalities are not tied to being good or evil.

Personality isn't something that appears right off the bat after you're born, it's something that has to be molded over time, though I do agree that it can be changed. However, someone could have the personality of an angel but could still be lead to commit heinous acts, this has happened in history time and again.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

The true Villian is Kishimoto.

Yup. Nagato and Obito are definitely anti-villains. Anti-heroes in the Naruto series are Sasuke and Itachi, maybe Danzo.

I agree with you on that Sasuke and Itachi are anti-heroes, but not so sure about Danzo.

The latter is a little more complex than to group in one category given his actions and motivations. He did protect the village, in that he didn't take chances and had the tendency to kill off all threats. Though, this is still too extreme. I'd just say well-intentioned extremist.

Sasuke was a villain and anti-villain for some time.

 

[Tennis Robot]

...It really is us though, isn't it? We are dishonest. We refuse to fully trust each other. We close ourselves off. Yet we still wish to interact with one another. We still want to be acknowledged. It makes me feel sick

 

[Chie]

The true Villian is Kishimoto.





Sasuke was a villain and anti-villain for some time.

That's true. In part one, Sasuke was just a "good guy" and a part of Team 7. In early part two (so Hebi phase), he's an anti-hero since he wants to just avenge his clan but doesn't kill unnecessarily. When he's in his MS phase, he's just a villain. Later, during the war arc he's an anti-villain when he says he'll have a revolution and bring peace (by killing Kages and destroying bijuus). Now, he's just a wanderer.

He doesn't fit as an anti-hero overall, it was just one role Kishimoto made his character play for a time in this series.

 

[SusanooKyuubi]

Being that we were on the topic of evil and I brought up the psychology of evil, I was meaning to find a vid discussing this, but damn YouTube can be a b***h something, but I found it.

Oh, and note, there is some graphic content in this vid:

Spoiler

 

[Tennis Robot]

Being that we were on the topic of evil and I brought up the psychology of evil, I was meaning to find a vid discussing this, but damn YouTube can be a b***h something, but I found it.

Oh, and note, there is some graphic content in this vid:

Spoiler

The premise of the experiment kind of skewed the subjects' attitudes though. I think it's more about power/authority than evil.

 

[SusanooKyuubi]

The premise of the experiment kind of skewed the people's attitude though. I think it's more about power/authority than evil.

The position of the participants was all at random, no group, whether it be the prisoners or the guards, were better than the other at first. Plus Zimbardo and his research had no hand in the experiment the entire time, they let boys go crazy by themselves.

 

[Tennis Robot]

The position of the participants was all at random, no group, whether it be the prisoners or the guards, were better than the other at first. Plus Zimbardo and his research had no hand in the experiment the entire time, they let boys go crazy by themselves.

I'm talking about the fact that they were separated into prisoners and guards in the first place.

 

[SusanooKyuubi]

I'm talking about the fact that they were separated into prisoners and guards in the first place.

And what of it? It proves that authority isn't the only thing that can change how ppl act. It shows how society in general can change how ppl act towards others.

 

[Tennis Robot]

And what of it? It proves that authority isn't the only thing that can change how ppl act. It shows how society in general can change how ppl act towards others.

People who they have been conditioned to detest.

 

[SusanooKyuubi]

People who they have been conditioned to detest.

These men weren't told to do the things they did or think the things they thought, they were only to keep the prisoners in line.

 

[Tennis Robot]

These men weren't told to do the things they did or think the things they thought, they were only to keep the prisoners in line.

But they were still dealing with "prisoners". I don't think it would have been as bad in a different environment and under a different premise.

 

[SusanooKyuubi]

But they were still dealing with "prisoners". I don't think it would have been as bad in a different environment and under a different premise.

This wasn't like Milgram's experiment where obedience to authority was being tested. The premise was that ambiguity would change who ppl reacted towards others. These guys were thrown in, assigned roles at random, and told the basics of what they were to do. What happened next was the participants, mainly the guards who also had no idea of what to do, filling in the blanks.

 

[Tennis Robot]

This wasn't like Milgram's experiment where obedience to authority was being tested. The premise was that ambiguity would change who ppl reacted towards others. These guys were thrown in, assigned roles at random, and told the basics of what they were to do. What happened next was the participants, mainly the guards who also had no idea of what to do, filling in the blanks.

Forget it.

 

[Lariatoo]

I think you nailed the problema in the head with that. The thing about a villain is mostly on the taxonomy: is a villain just someone who oposes the hero? Or he is that degenerated who do what he does just because he can? Someone completely avoid of empathy?
I personaly think that both cases are villains, the tragic and the ruthless. Just like we have a vast spectre of personalities, purposes and stories for a hero, why not for a villain?