[Predictions] The Rinnegan Rebooted

[Mr Hiru]

Sincerely, I could answer each of your paragraphs, but I'm expectant to the following chapter, so I guess I could recollect all your paragraphs and answer with something I said earlier:

So, as you can see, chakra is the source of ninjutsu, while spiritual energy alone is the source of ninshuu. The sage's chakra was just a bridge, but people were using their own spiritual energies.

Meaning that the sage only teached how to use chakra for the purpose of connecting spiritual energy, not how to create or manipulate chakra.

It's like how man learned how to make some use from light, not how to create or manipulate it. That's the big difference.

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Now, it's my turn to answer accordingly.

If this is true, if Yin and Yang energy are that black and white, then why did Hagoromo distribute chakra to everyone, a.k.a. both of them rather than just Yin?

You are aware ninjutsu consists of techniques molded not from perfect half and half yin and yang energies, but from all kinds of different ratios to create different chakras and effects, correct?


You are aware that in the Yin and Yang philosophy, which the Yin and Yang energies are based off of, both the Yin and Yang, though separate and beside one another, still have a piece of one in the other? This encompasses the entire concept of Yin and Yang. A little good in a lot of evil and a little evil in a lot of good. I.E. A whole grey area.


In conclusion, I believe Hagoromo gave them both because he had to in order to make it work and it fits in my opinion. In order to manipulate spirit energy, you would obviously have to give it some form, which is a core concept of chakra. Not only do the Rinnegan techniques reflect this, but so do the bijuus who are made up of chakra and were created using both Yin and Yang.

I see you're aware of the philosophy behind the symbols of Taoism, I'm glad you have the culture perspective in mind. Under the perspective of yin and yang, I'm aware of the significance behind the dots in each part of the symbol, so yes, speaking of spiritual energy should imply the use of physical energy at a minimum ratio. Sadly, manga only speaks about absolutes when we speak about the components of chakra (the fact that chapter speaks about the concept of Stamina is an explicit proof of spiritual energy and physical energy being concepts that are completely segregated), and moreover:

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The image only reveals that people are connecting spiritual energy, they are not using an inch of the sage's physical energy inside their bodies. The Sage's chakra, as I said, was just a bridge, a link. People were only putting their spiritual energy into this communication channel, they were not manipulating this channel.

The Yin/Yang symbol only appeared when the people started to knead the energies to create their own inner chakra

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And so ninjutsu is born.

In conclusion, even if people used the sage's chakra as a bridge for communicating, this was ninshuu because people were not creating inner chakra, but administrating their spiritual energy as an input for communication.

I never stated Ninshuu or Rinnegan only used spiritual energy. You did. And Hagoromo gave the shinobi his chakra, consisting of both Yin and Yang for Ninshuu, not just the former. What you are saying is basically the same as saying the senju inherited only Yang chakra and the Uchiha only Yin because Senju are stronger in body and the Uchiha are stronger in mind/spirit, which is ridiculous because they both possess chakra and ninjutsu which requires both.

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All six paths are spiritual. They all possess their own chakras. And in my version of the asura path, it does because it piecing your chakra out into life and nature. Lifeless missiles? As I recall, the asura path can transform living flesh into weapons and created a charged particle weapon of energy. You believe physical weapons cannot be made up of chakra or spiritual energy? Then what would you classify Susano'o, the tatsuka blade, the Yasaka beads, the shadow imitation technique, the five elements, kekkei genkis and so on as?

I assumed you were talking about the paths being ninshuu because of that phrase, and in consequence I disagreed because all paths uses their inner chakra to manifest offensive weapons.

And you are assuming that Ninshuu uses only Yin energy, which you have no proof of. I am not confused at all. I've thoroughly read and understood the concepts quite fluently for years. Just because you cannot comprehend something doesn't mean it is wrong.

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Ninshuu only uses spiritual energy, the manga explicitely says that people connected their inner spiritual energy only. The sage's chakra was just a bridge, an auxiliar tool used to massively connect people's spiritual energy, but if we go to the basics, ninshuu only used spiritual energy without the need of the Sage's chakra.

And this belief rests on two statements

- a: Ashura and Indra trained Ninshuu. The sage was not using his chakra when they trained.

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- b: The sage was not immortal. He came from the past to see what became from the Ninshuu. This is an explicit proof that someday there would be not sage to provide the communication link, and therefore people should have been able to use their spiritual energy only to communicate, using the knowledge passing down generations.

Chakra originated from the Shinju. Kaguya ate the Shinju fruit and had Hagoromo and Hagoromo gave it to the people. That is where it came from. No humans had it before that and it was never stated they had the potential to. Nor has it ever been stated that Ninshuu consists solely of spirit energy. Madara simply stated Hagoromo gave his chakra to the people to connect them spiritually and the fact remains that he gave them both the Yin and Yang energies.

Although it is true that the first human born with chakra was the Hermit Hagoromo, it is not true that he was the first human being born with Stamina (unmixed spiritual and physical energy). Assuming that he was the first human wielding chakra and no other human wielded the "components" of chakra would mean that he would have to share his chakra with all the world so every people out there could use ninshuu. I find this assumption being farfetched and it implies a contradiction.

Do you remember that in part 1 it was said that people without chakra dies? It turns out that this was kind of disproved from the moment where Hagoromo was revealed to be the first living human with chakra, but somehow the fact that people without chakra "now" dies has to have some sense. If people now without chakra dies, this should imply logically that people originally had spiritual and physical energy (stamina, fact: chapter 90).

Why? Because if people runs out of stamina, they die. Physical energy resides in each cell of the human being (fact: chapter 17).

But before Hagoromo's birth, people didn't had chakra (they didn't have the knowledge to mix physical and spiritual energy), henceforth they were in war only using physical knowledge, just like in real life.

Summarizing this part of the rebuttal: If people were not born with the components of chakra before Hagoromo's birth, right at the moment people would not die due chakra exhaustion, because under this implication spiritual and physical energy would not be a natural property of the living beings.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Meaning that the sage only teached how to use chakra for the purpose of connecting spiritual energy, not how to create or manipulate chakra.

You are MAAAJORLY contradicting yourself here. First off you used chakra when your argument is based solely on using spiritual energy. But that's okay considering that's the word Madara used and what Hagoromo distributed to everyone.

Second, how exactly was the spiritual energy supposed to connect when it had no form and was inside people? Move on it's own? Remote controlled by Hagoromo? I doubt it, especially considering Hagoromo "taught" it to them.

It's like how man learned how to make some use from light, not how to create or manipulate it. That's the big difference.

...Maybe you shouldn't use metaphors...lols.

To make consistent use of fire, cro-magnons had to learn how to make it and accessorize it via flint, brittle and timber. What, you believe they merely and conveniently came across fires caused by lightning, stared at them and then forgot about them only to repeat the process over and over for ages? Because it sure sounds like it. Yeah uh no. Homo sapiens became self-aware, were problem solvers, painted, drew, fashioned tools and accessorized fire. They were engineers. I have no idea what you're referring to.

Now, it's my turn to answer accordingly.

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the purpose of this sentence? To intimidate me? To tick me off? To put yourself on your none-existent lord god king of right pedestal when you have no idea what you're talking about and believe your assumptions are dogma and one vague statement is black and white? It doesn't exactly support your standpoint. Now I'm confused.

I see you're aware of the philosophy behind the symbols of Taoism, I'm glad you have the culture perspective in mind. Under the perspective of yin and yang, I'm aware of the significance behind the dots in each part of the symbol, so yes, speaking of spiritual energy should imply the use of physical energy at a minimum ratio. Sadly, manga only speaks about absolutes when we speak about the components of chakra (the fact that chapter speaks about the concept of Stamina is an explicit proof of spiritual energy and physical energy being concepts that are completely segregated), and moreover.

The image only reveals that people are connecting spiritual energy, they are not using an inch of the sage's physical energy inside their bodies.

The Sage's chakra, as I said, was just a bridge, a link. People were only putting their spiritual energy into this communication channel, they were not manipulating this channel.

And that only further supports the possibility that Madara can.

You are wrong here because those circles show the black dots at the center, a.k.a. bits of Yang/physical energy. I guess you looked past the "inch of physical energy" or just didn't see it.

Now you are truly confounding me with your replies. How on earth are they not manipulating it when they are willingly and physically putting their energies into it? If they could not manipulate it or use it, what was the point of Hagoromo teaching them Ninshuu? It doesn't make sense Hiru no matter how you slice it.

Well, ironically, your description of it somehow supports Madara being able to take advantage of and controlling it as I theorized.

Putting something into something else is physical. I'd say the only time Yin and Yang were remotely implied to be absolutely pure in this manga was when Hagoromo used them to create the bijuus, using his understanding and vast power, along with Obito who used it to nullify jutsus, as well as the reality manipulating doujutsus Izanagi and Izanami.

The Yin/Yang symbol only appeared when the people started to knead the energies to create their own inner chakra

Wrong. As I stated and as it is shown clear as day, the Yin circles connecting everyone contain dots of yang energy.

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And so ninjutsu is born.

Ninjutsu was born when Kaguya used the chakra she obtained from the fruit as a weapon and manifested the Byakugan and Sharingan, which Madara states again at the bottom of that page.

In conclusion, even if people used the sage's chakra as a bridge for communicating, this was ninshuu because people were not creating inner chakra, but administrating their spiritual energy as an input for communication.

There you go again. Contradicting yourself by using the words "used" and "input." Those are actions.

I assumed you were talking about the paths being ninshuu because of that phrase, and in consequence I disagreed because all paths uses their inner chakra to manifest offensive weapons.

You assume a lot lately. Including the assumption that spiritual energy and ninshuu are pure as limbo when they very clearly have a piece of Yang in the middle of them in the manga just as much as they do in Taoism.

Ninshuu only uses spiritual energy, the manga explicitely says that people connected their inner spiritual energy only. The sage's chakra was just a bridge, an auxiliar tool used to massively connect people's spiritual energy, but if we go to the basics, ninshuu only used spiritual energy without the need of the Sage's chakra.

You need to stop linking the same page and repeating the same statement to me. It's insulting and agitating. I am not mentally retarded and can read quite fluently. I understood it the first time I read and saw it when the chapter was first released.

Yes, people connected their spirit energy. As in willingly and manually. That means they manipulated it. And the Yin chakra is shown to have a piece of yang in it.

And this belief rests on two statements

"Belief?" I thought you considered it "fact?"

- a: Ashura and Indra trained Ninshuu. The sage was not using his chakra when they trained.

This only further contradicts your standpoint as Ashura inherited Yang chakra more than Yin chakra. If he followed your theory that Ninshuu was pure spirit energy, he would not have been able to train, become strong and defeat Indra, which he did.

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- b: The sage was not immortal. He came from the past to see what became from the Ninshuu. This is an explicit proof that someday there would be not sage to provide the communication link, and therefore people should have been able to use their spiritual energy only to communicate, using the knowledge passing down generations.

Exactly. They were in control of it, hence manually using it, being taught to use it and a piece of Yang being part of it, which contradicts your initial statement of them "not manipulating it."

Although it is true that the first human born with chakra was the Hermit Hagoromo, it is not true that he was the first human being born with Stamina (unmixed spiritual and physical energy).

Could you stop with the stamina jazz every time you're debunked, please? That too is becoming agitating. It has been stated and shown over and over that Hagoromo gave his chakra to others. And the Shinju sapped the shinobi of it, to which Madara replied, it was taking back what was it's own. You haven't even once elaborated on the consequences of shinobi breeding with chakra and the effects it would have on their children. i.e. Kekkei genkis like sharingan and byakugan, which are doujutus that are a part of their being.

Assuming that he was the first human wielding chakra and no other human wielded the "components" of chakra would mean that he would have to share his chakra with all the world so every people out there could use ninshuu. I find this assumption being farfetched and it implies a contradiction.

There is nothing contradictory about it. Madara outright states and shows that Hagoromo shared his chakra with everyone.

Do you remember that in part 1 it was said that people without chakra dies?

That is because chakra naturally became a part of them. Attached to their life energy after the clans bred and their children naturally inherited it.

It turns out that this was kind of disproved from the moment where Hagoromo was revealed to be the first living human with chakra, but somehow the fact that people without chakra "now" dies has to have some sense.

You are assuming Kaguya was not human.

If people now without chakra dies, this should imply logically that people originally had spiritual and physical energy (stamina, fact: chapter 90).

Or in opposition, that the energies they were given and inherited became a part of their DNA and life force.

But before Hagoromo's birth, people didn't had chakra (they didn't have the knowledge to mix physical and spiritual energy), henceforth they were in war only using physical knowledge, just like in real life.

Again, assuming Kaguya was not human.

Summarizing this part of the rebuttal:

You haven't rebutted anything. You are going by assumptions and hunches and contradicting canonical statements, facts and illustrations over and over to get the last word and you will likely continue to.

If people were not born with the components of chakra before Hagoromo's birth, right at the moment people would not die due chakra exhaustion, because under this implication spiritual and physical energy would not be a natural property of the living beings.

Originally, it wasn't. When they bred with it however, it became a part of their children's DNA and life force.

 

[Wesker]

Wow guys... You are hardcore! This is some "next-level" thread _@:

 

[OmegaRed721]

Repped and thanked

 

[Mr Hiru]

It's... kind of amusing reading the way you are just bypassing my arguments. I guess I can play your game as well, so, let's begin.

You are MAAAJORLY contradicting yourself here. First off you used chakra when your argument is based solely on using spiritual energy. But that's okay considering that's the word Madara used and what Hagoromo distributed to everyone.

Second, how exactly was the spiritual energy supposed to connect when it had no form and was inside people? Move on it's own? Remote controlled by Hagoromo? I doubt it, especially considering Hagoromo "taught" it to them.

You should know that there is no contradiction if chapter 510 explicitely says that Yin is the only thing you need to create shape, even if it doesn't hold any kind of life.

This clearified, Spiritual Energy (the Yin part of chakra) is enough to create shape, because this energy is manipulated from the imagination of people.

Proof:

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...Maybe you shouldn't use metaphors...lols.

To make consistent use of fire, cro-magnons had to learn how to make it and accessorize it via flint, brittle and timber. What, you believe they merely and conveniently came across fires caused by lightning, stared at them and then forgot about them only to repeat the process over and over for ages? Because it sure sounds like it. Yeah uh no. Homo sapiens became self-aware, were problem solvers, painted, drew, fashioned tools and accessorized fire. They were engineers. I have no idea what you're referring to.

I probably should not use metaphors, you're clever enough to catch my drift from here. I was using concepts that were already explicited in the past, mostly from chapter 17, 90, 462, 510, 665 and 671.

The thing is that chapter 510 already demonstrates that chakra has two completely separate components and they can be manipulated separately without the need of use of chakra per se.

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the purpose of this sentence? To intimidate me? To tick me off? To put yourself on your none-existent lord god king of right pedestal when you have no idea what you're talking about and believe your assumptions are dogma and one vague statement is black and white? It doesn't exactly support your standpoint. Now I'm confused.

You're getting angry alone, I'm not tickling anybody. In fact, you divided my answers in paragraphs and answered them step by step, and as I thought you did something that I found to be quite good and pleasant to read, I tried to act the way you did.

I found your answer was well organized, according to the situation. Now, if you thought I was kind of trying to pull string, I guess you just misunderstood the situation. That was not my intention at all. I'm sorry if you felt that way.

And that only further supports the possibility that Madara can.

You are wrong here because those circles show the black dots at the center, a.k.a. bits of Yang/physical energy. I guess you looked past the "inch of physical energy" or just didn't see it.

Now you are truly confounding me with your replies. How on earth are they not manipulating it when they are willingly and physically putting their energies into it? If they could not manipulate it or use it, what was the point of Hagoromo teaching them Ninshuu? It doesn't make sense Hiru no matter how you slice it.

Well, ironically, your description of it somehow supports Madara being able to take advantage of and controlling it as I theorized.

Putting something into something else is physical. I'd say the only time Yin and Yang were remotely implied to be absolutely pure in this manga was when Hagoromo used them to create the bijuus, using his understanding and vast power, along with Obito who used it to nullify jutsus, as well as the reality manipulating doujutsus Izanagi and Izanami.

I think you didn't get what I tried to say. Every time chakra is mentioned, it summons the figure of yin yang. I'm not talking about perfect dots of the image of Hagoromo using Ninshuu, I'm speaking about this symbol:

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If you try to spin that wheel you get gray color (chakra). The colors (spiritual and physical energy) are mixed.

In the other hand, when you try to spin the symbol in Hashirama's head (yes, it is familiar) you find that it means "Stamina", because the black and white never mixes after succesive spinnings. It is still unmixed spiritual and physical energy.

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Wrong. As I stated and as it is shown clear as day, the Yin circles connecting everyone contain dots of yang energy.

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Sorry, but your image clearly shows that the Yin bridges are broken. There is no connection at all, there are just people fusing their own inner energies, and furthermore, the Yin/Yang symbols are the representation of chakra molding. Come on, I don't want to summon chapter 17 again.

Ninjutsu was born when Kaguya used the chakra she obtained from the fruit as a weapon and manifested the Byakugan and Sharingan, which Madara states again at the bottom of that page.

You're right in this point.

There you go again. Contradicting yourself by using the words "used" and "input." Those are actions.

It seems you don't know about the concept of "black box" (or pragmata), this is a common concept used in engineerie. You can have knowledge about what is the input/output of a black box (a system that is visible only from outside) without knowing how it works inside.

Otherwise, you would not make that cocky comment, but instead you would have analyzed my words more carefully.

You assume a lot lately. Including the assumption that spiritual energy and ninshuu are pure as limbo when they very clearly have a piece of Yang in the middle of them in the manga just as much as they do in Taoism.

Chapter 510, that's all what I say, the energies can be separated and manipulated independently. That's my proof, you had the Taoism as assumption in this matter, which has not been introduced as is in Narutoverse.

Don't misunderstand me, I know what are you trying to imply with the presence of the Yang component, but you're not understanding the importance of the shapes in the image.

The white circle with black dot is not chakra because these energies are not mixed, ergo, you can't summon Taoism when the shape of the energies are not in the form of Yin and Yang.

Also, you're implying that the Physical Energy is being used just because it appears in the image, and that's another assumption that lacks basis based on what Madara said in chapter 665, about people connecting only spiritual energy.

Look again, the Sage's physical energy is above the spiritual energy bridge, flowing freely like flares.

You need to stop linking the same page and repeating the same statement to me. It's insulting and agitating. I am not mentally retarded and can read quite fluently. I understood it the first time I read and saw it when the chapter was first released.

Yes, people connected their spirit energy. As in willingly and manually. That means they manipulated it. And the Yin chakra is shown to have a piece of yang in it.

I'm sorry if you felt irritated. Sadly I felt the need to do so because you were still insisting that people were using their chakra in its complete form, when clearly the energies were not mixed.

Now, about the Yang part, in the last paragraph I already said the reason of why I disagree, so this time I won't repeat myself.

"Belief?" I thought you considered it "fact?"

Consider it as me being opened to your possibility of the "yang" part being an active component of ninshuu, but I still keep defending my position about this impasse.

I'm not that close minded, you know.

This only further contradicts your standpoint as Ashura inherited Yang chakra more than Yin chakra. If he followed your theory that Ninshuu was pure spirit energy, he would not have been able to train, become strong and defeat Indra, which he did.

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Your misunderstanding, because I never stated that Ashura didn't have spiritual energy. Hagoromo said that Ashura's chakra bloomed, so there had to be a moment where his spiritual energy reserves expanded, and the process for this objective is explained in chapter 17 when Sakura speaks about chakra training (which curiously is represented by "experiences" and "mind").

Exactly. They were in control of it, hence manually using it, being taught to use it and a piece of Yang being part of it, which contradicts your initial statement of them "not manipulating it."

...no need to repeat myself about yin properties, so I disagree.

Could you stop with the stamina jazz every time you're debunked, please? That too is becoming agitating. It has been stated and shown over and over that Hagoromo gave his chakra to others. And the Shinju sapped the shinobi of it, to which Madara replied, it was taking back what was it's own. You haven't even once elaborated on the consequences of shinobi breeding with chakra and the effects it would have on their children. i.e. Kekkei genkis like sharingan and byakugan, which are doujutus that are a part of their being.

You're purposely ignoring the accumulated knowledge that has been revealed from part 1. If you're tired of me instancing facts (the existence of stamina before the creation of chakra), then we can stop argumenting and I can leave in peace. It's your choice.

There is nothing contradictory about it. Madara outright states and shows that Hagoromo shared his chakra with everyone.

I'll ignore this comment and move on, since I clearified my reasons for my disagreement.

That is because chakra naturally became a part of them. Attached to their life energy after the clans bred and their children naturally inherited it.

...naturally became a part of them? Where did you get that from?

You're assuming people didn't have stamina before Kaguya's era.

Lol I'm imagining how did people fight wars before Kaguya stopped them. Stamina is used for Taijutsu, but if they were not able to move, how were wars possible? Just no, I don't find sense to that bolded phrase.

You are assuming Kaguya was not human.

Wait a minute, my mistake in this paragraph. I intended to say that Hagoromo was the first human "born" with chakra.

Or in opposition, that the energies they were given and inherited became a part of their DNA and life force.

Chapter 90: Stamina is used for Taijutsu (the way people fought before Kaguya's era). So no, they already had these energies.

Edit: I corrected this paragraph. I said chapter 17 (

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) when the process of creation of chakra from stamina is better explained in chapter 90 (

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).

Again, assuming Kaguya was not human.

I already admited my mistake in this matter, I will move on.

You haven't rebutted anything. You are going by assumptions and hunches and contradicting canonical statements, facts and illustrations over and over to get the last word and you will likely continue to.

I clearified the reasoning behind my arguments. It's up to you to analyze them with care or detach them as any narrow minded random dude would do.

Originally, it wasn't. When they bred with it however, it became a part of their children's DNA and life force.

I won't believe this until I see a manga page that tells so. I guess the one who should stop making assumptions is you, sir.

Edit: My link to chapter 90 proves everything else, because as you said Kaguya gave birth to Ninjutsu. But she didn't create taijutsu, which makes use of the stamina used by humans who lacks knowledge or capacity to mold chakra (for instance, Lee or Gai).

 

[SkyGodHorus]

It's... kind of amusing reading the way you are just bypassing my arguments. I guess I can play your game as well, so, let's begin.

I don't play games.

I have not ignored a single thing you've said. I've read every single one of your words and references and debunked several of them. You on the other hand have been using the same statements over and over. "Bypassing" as you call it the Yin/Yang concept that is very real and existent in the manga and calling your assumption that yin and yang energies are pure is dogma when you have nothing to support it. Let's not also forget you completely ignoring my questioning your classification of several fabled ninjutsu weapons and elements composed of spirit energy. I. E. the Totsuka blade, Yasaka beads, susano'o and Yata Mirror.

You should know that there is no contradiction if chapter 510 explicitely says that Yin is the only thing you need to create shape, even if it doesn't hold any kind of life.

Using spirit energy to create shape and physical energy to create life. It sounds like they are still intertwined to me. And there are separate Yin and Yang releases, but the combination of both is what Hagoromo and Obito used.

This clearified, Spiritual Energy (the Yin part of chakra) is enough to create shape, because this energy is manipulated from the imagination of people.

I.E. It's both spiritual and physical, once again reflecting the dots they possess at their centers.

Proof:

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Yes, proof that they aren't one-dimensional as you initially stated.

I probably should not use metaphors,

I honestly don't care if you use metaphors, just as long as you know how to and use them in the correct context. I can admit I usually suck at making them, but that doesn't mean I can't interpret them.

you're clever enough to catch my drift from here. I was using concepts that were already explicited in the past, mostly from chapter 17, 90, 462, 510, 665 and 671.

"Clever enough?" You sure think pretty highly of yourself.

Would you please stop pretending you know the manga inside and out from chapter 1 to 671? It is not perfect, nothing is. There are possibilities of plot holes, retcons and mistranslations throughout just like any other pre-packaged printed medium of fiction. You should broaden your horizons and use more than one source to make yourself more credible, assuming you don't know Japanese that is.

The thing is that chapter 510 already demonstrates that chakra has two completely separate components and they can be manipulated separately without the need of use of chakra per se.

I don't think so. The description on its own is a contradiction of your standpoint because one is spirit energy, yet creates form rather than life, while the other is physical energy, but creates life rather than form. As I've said before, it reflects the core concept of Yin and Yang: A lot of good with a little evil and a lot of Evil with a little good and the dots in each further support that.

You're getting angry alone, I'm not tickling anybody. to any thing I stated actually In fact, you divided my answers in paragraphs and answered them step by step, and as I thought you did something that I found to be quite good and pleasant to read, I tried to act the way you did.

Then I misunderstood you and apologize in this case. Thank you for the compliment, though you do come off as superficial at times.

I found your answer was well organized, according to the situation. Now, if you thought I was kind of trying to pull string, I guess you just misunderstood the situation. That was not my intention at all. I'm sorry if you felt that way.

It's np.

I think you didn't get what I tried to say. Every time chakra is mentioned, it summons the figure of yin yang. I'm not talking about perfect dots of the image of Hagoromo using Ninshuu, I'm speaking about this symbol:

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If you try to spin that wheel you get gray color (chakra). The colors (spiritual and physical energy) are mixed.

In the other hand, when you try to spin the symbol in Hashirama's head (yes, it is familiar) you find that it means "Stamina", because the black and white never mixes after succesive spinnings. It is still unmixed spiritual and physical energy.[/quote]

Hashirama is using Senjutsu there, not chakra. The symbol on his head is a manifestation of his senjutsu, not a representation of chakra. And chakra as I've said before is not a perfect mix of all the yin and yang. In the panels, they show them mixed but mostly still separated into black and white and the shinobi use different ratios to create different chakras and effects.

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Sorry, but your image clearly shows that the Yin bridges are broken. There is no connection at all, there are just people fusing their own inner energies, and furthermore, the Yin/Yang symbols are the representation of chakra molding. Come on, I don't want to summon chapter 17 again.

My apologies, I meant to link the Ninshuu page here.

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It shows that all the Yin energies have yang dots in them.

You're right in this point./quote]

Thank you.

It seems you don't know about the concept of "black box" (or pragmata), this is a common concept used in engineerie. You can have knowledge about what is the input/output of a black box (a system that is visible only from outside) without knowing how it works inside.

...You mean engineering? Sorry, I'm having a difficult time comprehending a few of your words. Are you fluent in English, is it your secondary language or are these typos? I don't think a black box compares to the Ninshuu system since everyone is connected via their own energies. This isn't a radio signal given off from a single machine we're talking about, it's a huge network of everyone's energies and one man's energies that is still somewhat vague. I still can't comprehend how it works exactly. I think it compares more to sonar, like from bats and dolphins.

Otherwise, you would not make that cocky comment, but instead you would have analyzed my words more carefully.

I am not being cocky. I simply stated that you were contradicting yourself. And I don't believe a black box compares to it at all.

Chapter 510, that's all what I say, the energies can be separated and manipulated independently.

Yet the effects they had on their own both encompassed and contradicted their properties and the dots are still there.

That's my proof, you had the Taoism as assumption in this matter, which has not been introduced as is in Narutoverse.

It's not an assumption. Chakra is based off Yin and Yang. It is illustrated as Yin and Yang and defined as Yin and Yang from the start to finish of this manga. You're basically saying the dots mean nothing along with the philosophy, mythology and folklore references and it's ridiculous. Or maybe I misinterpreted you again. I don't know.

Don't misunderstand me, I know what are you trying to imply with the presence of the Yang component, but you're not understanding the importance of the shapes in the image.

You mean I'm not accepting what you believe.

The white circle with black dot is not chakra because these energies are not mixed, ergo, you can't summon Taoism when the shape of the energies are not in the form of Yin and Yang.

If they had no significance, Kishimoto would not have drawn them. They aren't mixed because according to the Yin and Yang concept, they are both one in the same but also not because in Yin and Yang there is no pure light and dark. That aspect encompasses one not being able to exist without the other.

Also, you're implying that the Physical Energy is being used just because it appears in the image, and that's another assumption that lacks basis based on what Madara said in chapter 665, about people connecting only spiritual energy.

Yet you appear to be referencing images yourself. Another contradiction?

And no, I'm implying the dots are in each because they are part of each. One in the same and not. One not being able to exist without some of the other and not being malleable without some of the other.

Look again, the Sage's physical energy is above the spiritual energy bridge, flowing freely like flares.

That is your assumption. You cannot validate it and if that were the case, it would be black, not white.

I'm sorry if you felt irritated. Sadly I felt the need to do so because you were still insisting that people were using their chakra in its complete form, when clearly the energies were not mixed.

It's fine. I'd honestly rather be angry or agitated rather than feeling like an emotionless drone like I usually do. And unlike most people, I tend to be more focused when I'm agitated as insane as that sounds.

Consider it as me being opened to your possibility of the "yang" part being an active component of ninshuu, but I still keep defending my position about this impasse.

This is basically all I wanted. For you to be open about it.

I'm not that close minded, you know.

Well you certainly have a good eye and can do your homework. I'll give you that much.

Your misunderstanding, because I never stated that Ashura didn't have spiritual energy. Hagoromo said that Ashura's chakra bloomed, so there had to be a moment where his spiritual energy reserves expanded, and the process for this objective is explained in chapter 17 when Sakura speaks about chakra training (which curiously is represented by "experiences" and "mind").

Just "a moment?" I don't buy it.

And Hagoromo stated he taught them both Ninshuu just before revealing that they fought each other over and over until they were killed. That seems to suggest what they used was Ninshuu to me.

I'm not seeing the parallel with chapter 17 other than proof that chakra is part of the person's life force whether it came from them or not and thus grows with them.

You're purposely ignoring the accumulated knowledge that has been revealed from part 1. If you're tired of me instancing facts (the existence of stamina before the creation of chakra), then we can stop argumenting and I can leave in peace. It's your choice.

Sigh...I'm not ignoring anything....

...naturally became a part of them? Where did you get that from?

Kekkei Genkis and chakra being depleted to zero killing the person when people originally didn't even have it.

You're assuming people didn't have stamina before Kaguya's era.

I never stated people had no stamina before Kaguya's time. And no, I'm going by what has been stated and Illustrated. The shinju sucked the chakra out of the shinobi and killed them before Madara stated it belonged to it originally. How is that so difficult to understand?

Lol I'm imagining how did people fight wars before Kaguya stopped them. Stamina is used for Taijutsu, but if they were not able to move, how were wars possible? Just no, I don't find sense to that bolded phrase.

You're the one putting words into my mouth.

Yet the eight gates encompass chakra, along with the 64 and 128 palm techniques.

Wait a minute, my mistake in this paragraph. I intended to say that Hagoromo was the first human "born" with chakra.

But what does it matter? You don't believe people have Hagoromo's chakra or that it became part of their life force and DNA when they began breeding with it. I.E. Hashirama's cells being abused by Orochimaru, Madara and Obito to obtain Mokuton and Senju DNA as well as other Kekkei Genkis.

Chapter 17: Stamina is used for Taijutsu (the way people fought before Kaguya's era). So no, they already had these energies.

From what I saw in the image of the people, they were merely wielding weapons.

I never stated they didn't. I stated Hagoromo's cells and chakra became a part of them.

I won't believe this until I see a manga page that tells so.

Maybe I could just tell you instead. Hashirama was Ashura's reincarnation as well as his descendant and a grand child of Hagoromo. He became the patriarch of the Senju clan and of Konoha, which many believe is comprised of clans and families that broke off from the senju line. Madara, Obito, Orochimaru and Danzou stole and manipulated his Cells and DNA, which manifested as Mokuton, a kekkei Genki jutsu.

I clearified the reasoning behind my arguments. It's up to you to analyze them with care or detach them as any narrow minded random dude would do.

I imagine you actually meant this as an insult here? Lols. Well, maybe I was a bit harsh. You did do your homework after all and used references. I'll try to be more objective this time, but I really couldn't find anything new I didn't know already that you stated. And several arguments you made contradicted things and came off as assumptions. For example, Hashirama's senjutsu symbol. That came from his senjutsu mode, not his chakra, physical or mental energy. You are also overlooking the dots in the Yin and Yang even though they clearly reflect the concept of having to have some of the other in order to control both, and the way Hagoromo created the bijuus reflecting that. I also didn't get where you thought the energy surrounding Hagoromo was his physical energy when it was white and fragmented all over the place and was never stated or illustrated to be. Furthermore, you couldn't explain how Ashura was able to become strong and defeat Indra when he had mostly physical energy but was taught with Ninshuu, which you believe is all spiritual. This is basically my summary of your inconsistencies.

However, I still believe Ninshuu was vaguely described and that there is more to it than we know.

All the same, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I can't continue this debate any longer as we are just beginning to insult each other and continuing to open new arguments and going off-topic when we originally only had one and this thread is meant for Rinnegan discussion. It's exhausting, repetitive, time consuming and it's going nowhere, though I'm glad you are at least open to my comprehension of the matter.

Again, sorry if I miscomprehended you.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Fair enough. Nonetheless, you have valid points in there. We must see if we can get more feedback from the following chapters.

+Rep and thanks, you're good in debate.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

I've never played any of the naruto games so when I came across this on youtube, it caught me by surprise. The choreography of the deva path Pein in this fight is absolutely epic and quite different from the manga and even anime version. If looks like a whole other level and reflects some of Madara's uses of the Rinnegan.

Enjoy. Skip to 3:40 for the part I'm talking about.



Edit: Never mind. It won't show up here for some reason lols. Search for the URL here on youtube if you're still interested.