[Discussion] The origins of Earth's problems

wanderingcactus

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As I was having some friendly discussions with @Infant, we came across a period with which we had to use deduction and speculation to complete the Otsutsuki God Arc. This was because I do not think that the studio would ever get the chance to address it.

I wish to move this into here as they spanned over a few threads and took away from the original posting.

To bring people up to speed, Infant and I were discussing the ancestral wars and how the Hyugas were left behind in the development (to which he disagreed for the most part) and then moved to Kaguya and we detracted from the original posts.

So as the title suggests, I am discussing the biggest plothole in Narutoverse and that is Kaguya.

We are given a few evidence to start understanding and unraveling Kaguya's goals and motivations. Although many were clashing and retcons, there are enough gaps to bridge them into a more coherent story.

The story begins with Isshiki and Kaguya reaching Earth to harvest. From what we can tell based from the Boruto movie, Planet Farms are often barren due to the God Trees planted sucking up all energy and robbing everything from the planet. However, there have been accounts that were passed down that stated life was abundant on Earth before Kaguya's descent.

Meaning that Isshiki and Kaguya had found a planet in which were not only barren but full of life. Despite the fact that this planet was being harvested with the God Tree, it still bore life. It had too much of it. Wars apparently were everywhere. Conflict too. Based on what we learn in Boruto manga, Isshiki and Kaguya fought prior to her stealing the chakra fruit which left Isshiki weakened and pressumed dead. Fortunately for Isshiki, a priest/monk was there which Isshiki took over, his name is Jigen.

She transcended after taking the chakra fruit and eventually the God Tree (if not at the same time). This allowed her to change or give birth to twins: Hagoromo and Hamura. Their birth imparted some of her powers but she ruled Earth peacefully. Until Hagoromo and Hamura came to maturity. At this time, Kaguya had changed.

Something had changed from within Kaguya. She became motivated to enslave and retake back all of her power. We know that she is on guard against the other Otsutsukis and wished to defend herself or the planet. Was she malignant to begin with or was her desperation pushed her to the brink? Was she planning on sacrificing everyone and everything to gain power? If so, why did she wait and allow many things to happen?
Regardless of her intent, it was enough to consider her a threat to the world. Hagoromo and Hamura rose up, each bearing each others' seal, and split her apart using their seals into 2: Her chakra and her vessel. The twins knew of their mother's concern: a looming threat from the outside; a part of her clan is coming.

Each brother kept one for safe keeping. Hagoromo took his mother's chakra and Hamura took his mother's vessel. The two split up because of that. But they have to prepare the world. The world is filled with humans that waged war against each other before their mother put a stop to it. Since his younger brother left for the moon with others to become observers, he took on the burden of preparing the rest for the worst.

He is Yin and his powers reveled in ninjutsu while his brother is Yang, his powers required ninshu. Thus, he taught the world ninjutsu. This boosted the quality of life on Earth. He bore 2 sons: Indra and Asura. However, he had make a difficult choice: what does Earth need to overcome the future? Especially when gods descend once more? His younger son struggled as he lacked power growing up. However, because he specialized in ninshu, he managed to gain power by linking up with others.
Through unity comes power. Hagoromo thinks that this is the best choice for humanity's survival and chose him to lead the world in his stead. Before leaving, he split the Juubi into 9 to further make it secure. Because Asura is a ninshu user, he is the only one that can utilize their power when the time comes by linking up with all of the 9 beasts.

Unbeknownst to Hagoromo, Indra and his mother's will: Black Zetsu, have been talking with one another, with the latter corrupting the former. He was setting Indra to amass power as power is the best way to protect the world. People will not need to dirty their hands and stay protected. Only he is needed to fight and so that others do not have to. He took advantage of this and corrupted him. He made him desperate to gain power as power is the only solution. This decision of Indra to protect the world in this way undermined the decision of Hagoromo. Asura also did not like Indra's solution as well as having the thought of his brother bearing the weight of the world alone.

This made the brothers clash and this continued on for generations.

Meanwhile on the Moon, after seeing the conflict of Indra and Asura escalate, the Moon was put in disarray. Hamura had left and imparted them with the Tenseigan Orb alongside a decree. A decree in which will be misappropriated which will ultimately drive Toneri to bring the Moon down into the Earth in the far future.

Earth adopted ninjutsu over the years, seeing it more useful than ninshu. Ninshu ended up becoming a religion of the past, rather than a source of power.
Over the years, the Otsutsuki lineage became more and more diluted but the trade off was that the humans became more and more experienced in warfare.

This warfare reached its penultimate when its accumulation gave way to Kaguya's rebirth. The moon and sun seals were used once again to thwart her plans. This time sealing BZ, her karma, along with her.

Peace fell once more but the known existence of the Otsutsuki made them wary. The arms race began in other nations to best prepare themselves for the worst: Naruto and Sasuke turning against them. These advancements and knowledge gave them a possible advantage to repel the alien invaders when the time comes. This proved to be false. Despite all of their arms race, they ultimately needed the power of Kaguya to stop the Moon from crashing and to defeat the 2 Otsutsuki that showed up: Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

This time, Jigen is getting closer and closer on being able to reincarnate Isshiki.
Since there were 6 in the murals that Sasuke had found, they still needed to be on guard for the remaining ones.



  • Earth had life
  • Kaguya was nice
  • Kaguya had twins
  • Kaguya was not nice and children fought against her
  • Twins split up her powers and guarded over them
  • Hagoromo chose Asura to lead the world to prepare the world/humans his stead
  • Indra was manipulated
  • Moon was devastated about their actions
  • Isshiki was just chillin
 
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wanderingcactus

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for many readers she was final vilain but that's not true....

final vilain has always to be there in Manga (main villain = final vilain).. madara ...orochomaro ...
She certainly is a villain but you're right. In terms of manga, she is a feature. Not really a presence that had been there since the beginning. That would be more of BZ than her.
 
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Infant

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Plot twist:
What if Kaguya was always nice, but the boys villainised her in order to grab power for themselves?

Otherwise, its easy to understand fear. Technically, a planet with Zetsu is better than no planet at all . . .
 

wanderingcactus

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Plot twist:
What if Kaguya was always nice, but the boys villainised her in order to grab power for themselves?

Otherwise, its easy to understand fear. Technically, a planet with Zetsu is better than no planet at all . . .
That could also work. Like a subversion of plot. Although, it wouldn't really match the actions of BZ ruining everything. Perhaps for revenge? How about Indra? Was it that because he knew that he was willing to do what was necessary to topple the kingdom that his father made for himself?

I think they would sound very farfetch. But they are something that can be built upon.
 

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That could also work. Like a subversion of plot. Although, it wouldn't really match the actions of BZ ruining everything. Perhaps for revenge? How about Indra? Was it that because he knew that he was willing to do what was necessary to topple the kingdom that his father made for himself?

I think they would sound very farfetch. But they are something that can be built upon.
Indra may have just a tool

Or he may have agreed with the idea of revenge. Also remember that Madara is a good judge of character and details. Why woud he sincerely side with the Uchiha Tablet if he didnt think there was a genuine cause?

Of course, its just an idea
 

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Plot twist:
What if Kaguya was always nice, but the boys villainised her in order to grab power for themselves?

Otherwise, its easy to understand fear. Technically, a planet with Zetsu is better than no planet at all . . .
r u fvvcking kidding me????...

i can't believe how readers couldn't see that kagoya was nice woman who got changed and controled by powerz of evil fruit afte eating it..
 

wanderingcactus

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Also remember that Madara is a good judge of character and details. Why woud he sincerely side with the Uchiha Tablet if he didnt think there was a genuine cause?
I thought that was already established. Madara found another way of attaining peace and that was what ultimately made him leave Konoha.

kagoya was nice woman
Oh she was best waifu. Till the part that he wrecked Isshiki for the fruit.
 
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wanderingcactus

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This scan should just simplify everything regarding her origins. [Naruto Manga Chapter 700 + 5]


You must be registered for see images
Yes, this information was already incorporated into the posting.

The problem is that whether or not Kaguya was good or bad. If she was the former, then her plan was out of desperation, much like Madara's motivation to forsake everything for the IT.
If it was the latter, then why did she have to go on such a round-about way?
There was a need to eliminate Isshiki and that was because of the chakra fruit. Whether or not she wanted it for herself is irrelevant to that event.
The problem is caused by having her play the rabbit goddess. Did she really want to rule over as the world's benevolent goddess or was she doing that to fool everyone?

In the other discussion thread, I surmised that it is possible that Kaguya's WZ is far superior than the ones showed to us with Madara. His WZ were all fodder level. Not enough to be a threat to the Otsutsuki. Only contender being the Spiral Zetsu.

With that information, I suggested that Kaguya's WZ is far superior as it did not use Hashirama cell to clone imperfect Zetsus.
Infant also suggested that she can boost those fodder Zetsus (should they be of the same quality) with her own chakra. Which is extremely plausible.

Another possibility was that it could be that she was cultivating the world and making her own empire and soldiers devoted to her. Having talented humans by her side will be a great tool to add to her ever growing arsenal.
My hypothesis is that she was planning to take over their body and using them as puppets while keeping everyone under IT.

It is possible that we can use the timeline to insert Urashiki and his partner ahead of Kinshiki and Momoshiki as the canon materials only mentions them in the murals. (I do not believe Urashiki was even mentioned in the Boruto movie and also anime do not count as canon).

So we can say that the series of events went a little like this:

> Elder Otsutsuki plants God Tree on Earth then leaves to cultivate it later
> Isshiki and Kaguya arrives to a matured God Tree but abundant Earth
> Isshiki and Kaguya fight
> Kaguya became rabbit goddess and bore twins
> Otsutsuki scout found out about Earth and reported to Urashiki but was defeated by Kaguya (it is possible that the Otsutsuki partner betrayed them as his/her mural was vandilized)
> Kaguya needed to prepare for the other Otsutsuki that will be coming and went mad
> Hagoromo and Hamura defeated her
> Hagoromo and Hamura split up
> Hagoromo made Asura be the leader
> BZ corrupts Indra
> canon Naruto series
> Urashiki still not found
 

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Yes, this information was already incorporated into the posting.

The problem is that whether or not Kaguya was good or bad. If she was the former, then her plan was out of desperation, much like Madara's motivation to forsake everything for the IT.
If it was the latter, then why did she have to go on such a round-about way?
There was a need to eliminate Isshiki and that was because of the chakra fruit. Whether or not she wanted it for herself is irrelevant to that event.
The problem is caused by having her play the rabbit goddess. Did she really want to rule over as the world's benevolent goddess or was she doing that to fool everyone?

In the other discussion thread, I surmised that it is possible that Kaguya's WZ is far superior than the ones showed to us with Madara. His WZ were all fodder level. Not enough to be a threat to the Otsutsuki. Only contender being the Spiral Zetsu.

With that information, I suggested that Kaguya's WZ is far superior as it did not use Hashirama cell to clone imperfect Zetsus.
Infant also suggested that she can boost those fodder Zetsus (should they be of the same quality) with her own chakra. Which is extremely plausible.

Another possibility was that it could be that she was cultivating the world and making her own empire and soldiers devoted to her. Having talented humans by her side will be a great tool to add to her ever growing arsenal.
My hypothesis is that she was planning to take over their body and using them as puppets while keeping everyone under IT.

It is possible that we can use the timeline to insert Urashiki and his partner ahead of Kinshiki and Momoshiki as the canon materials only mentions them in the murals. (I do not believe Urashiki was even mentioned in the Boruto movie and also anime do not count as canon).

So we can say that the series of events went a little like this:

> Elder Otsutsuki plants God Tree on Earth then leaves to cultivate it later
> Isshiki and Kaguya arrives to a matured God Tree but abundant Earth
> Isshiki and Kaguya fight
> Kaguya became rabbit goddess and bore twins
> Otsutsuki scout found out about Earth and reported to Urashiki but was defeated by Kaguya (it is possible that the Otsutsuki partner betrayed them as his/her mural was vandilized)
> Kaguya needed to prepare for the other Otsutsuki that will be coming and went mad
> Hagoromo and Hamura defeated her
> Hagoromo and Hamura split up
> Hagoromo made Asura be the leader
> BZ corrupts Indra
> canon Naruto series
> Urashiki still not found

Determining whether or not her motivation is good or bad is not that hard. She murder people or robbed them of their life and freedom. That's definitely bad no matter how desperate she was.
 
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wanderingcactus

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Determining whether or not her motivation is good or bad is not that hard. She murder people or robbed them of their life and freedom. That's definitely bad no matter how desperate she was.

Better to sacrifice the few than the lose everyone and everything. We all go through those tough choices. Should we give up on the few to save the many or keep the useful and cut the losses with the useless?
Few is a sentiment, Many is statistic.

To risk everything for liberty and freedom or to sacrifice them for safety and security?

Good or bad is subjective. Obviously if you are the person subjected to those choices, you will have to consider them as bad as your instinct is to survive.
However, is it not best to lose some than to lose all? Is it not a better alternative to enslave those who would guarantee wanton destruction if they kept their freedom?

Which one is more important? The lives of the degenerate masses or the lives of the few elitists? Which one will give the best chance of survival and quality of life?

It is easy to say "murder people or robbed them of their life" if we take a look at it in a limited perspective. Is it not better to have them be sacrificed to ensure the future for Earth rather than not have any future for Earth at all?
 

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Better to sacrifice the few than the lose everyone and everything. We all go through those tough choices. Should we give up on the few to save the many or keep the useful and cut the losses with the useless?
Few is a sentiment, Many is statistic.

To risk everything for liberty and freedom or to sacrifice them for safety and security?

Good or bad is subjective. Obviously if you are the person subjected to those choices, you will have to consider them as bad as your instinct is to survive.
However, is it not best to lose some than to lose all? Is it not a better alternative to enslave those who would guarantee wanton destruction if they kept their freedom?

Which one is more important? The lives of the degenerate masses or the lives of the few elitists? Which one will give the best chance of survival and quality of life?

It is easy to say "murder people or robbed them of their life" if we take a look at it in a limited perspective. Is it not better to have them be sacrificed to ensure the future for Earth rather than not have any future for Earth at all?

Oh. So you are arguing that her motivations were good? That she had a reason to do what she did?


I disagree. What she did was bad even though her intentions were good.
 

wanderingcactus

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What she did was bad even though her intentions were good.
Was not arguing whether or not what she did was bad. But rather whether or not what she did was necessary or desired or based on convenience.
The differences between the 3 are:
1) she had no choice (doing it because she had to)
2) she had some choice but chose to do it (doing it because it is an option)
3) there was no need to do so (was not an option but doing it because she wanted to see if she can)
 

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Was not arguing whether or not what she did was bad. But rather whether or not what she did was necessary or desired or based on convenience.
The differences between the 3 are:
1) she had no choice (doing it because she had to)
2) she had some choice but chose to do it (doing it because it is an option)
3) there was no need to do so (was not an option but doing it because she wanted to see if she can)
Well, probably the second one. Everybody has a choice.
 
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Infant

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r u fvvcking kidding me????...

i can't believe how readers couldn't see that kagoya was nice woman who got changed and controled by powerz of evil fruit afte eating it..
Just an idea.

Since they introduced the part of Kaguya having had a partner, i figure its now open season on plot twists.

For example, your case does not dismiss the idea. What if the boys used the idea of her power to corrupt her so that she could become easily corrupted by the fruit?
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I thought that was already established. Madara found another way of attaining peace and that was what ultimately made him leave Konoha
I was thinking that someone who can judge good character would look at Will Zetsu and recognise that he was being tricked

Or at least that Zetsu was a bad person. So if Madara did not recognise this, it is possible that Zetsu himself was fighting for a good cause. That in turn makes it possible Kaguya was more of a victim than a villain
 
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wanderingcactus

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I was thinking that someone who can judge good character would look at Will Zetsu and recognise that he was being tricked

Or at least that Zetsu was a bad person. So if Madara did not recognise this, it is possible that Zetsu himself was fighting for a good cause. That in turn makes it possible Kaguya was more of a victim than a villain
I see what you are saying now. But I thought the Hagoromo side does not see the evil things. Only the Jougan and CM can see or feel evil intent.

But yes, Kaguya was a victim of her twins' betrayal. However, we do not know whether or not her actions were something derived from desperation or something malicious. BZ would certainly want to help his "mother" meaning that his actions would not be out of malice but rather out of revenge.

The wars between the brothers ended up as such due to the clash of idealisms. Whereas, BZ's intent was to have the Rinnegan awaken. Asura transmigrants can easily just steal Indra's transmigrants' eyes and vice versa. No need for wars to occur just how Toneri did it. Or they can even cooperate.

So maybe that is another reason why Madara could not see it. Also BZ was not an entity known to him. He was using the tablet as his source of information so he wouldn't perceive that having any intent to begin with.
Again, this is all under the speculation that Madara being able to see evil in the first place, which I do not see any evidence that they can.
 

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I see what you are saying now. But I thought the Hagoromo side does not see the evil things. Only the Jougan and CM can see or feel evil intent.

But yes, Kaguya was a victim of her twins' betrayal. However, we do not know whether or not her actions were something derived from desperation or something malicious. BZ would certainly want to help his "mother" meaning that his actions would not be out of malice but rather out of revenge.

The wars between the brothers ended up as such due to the clash of idealisms. Whereas, BZ's intent was to have the Rinnegan awaken. Asura transmigrants can easily just steal Indra's transmigrants' eyes and vice versa. No need for wars to occur just how Toneri did it. Or they can even cooperate.

So maybe that is another reason why Madara could not see it. Also BZ was not an entity known to him. He was using the tablet as his source of information so he wouldn't perceive that having any intent to begin with.
Again, this is all under the speculation that Madara being able to see evil in the first place, which I do not see any evidence that they can.
I was just thinking of personality, but your explanation covers it

Didn't he meet Will Zetsu along the way?
 

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Didn't he meet Will Zetsu along the way?
Hmm, from what I can remember, he created the 2 zetsus in his eyes. So he made Spiral Zetsu and cloned it and made one of the clones Black Zetsu to watch over Obito since BZ carries "his" will.
When we know that it was actually Kaguya's will, which is what I consider her Karma taking over a Zetsu.

So Madara was interacting with only one Zetsu and that was BZ, before he became BZ. Unless he was already BZ from when Kaguya was sealed but fooled Madara into thinking that he created him from the cloned Spiral Zetsu or White Zetsu.
 

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Hmm, from what I can remember, he created the 2 zetsus in his eyes. So he made Spiral Zetsu and cloned it and made one of the clones Black Zetsu to watch over Obito since BZ carries "his" will.
When we know that it was actually Kaguya's will, which is what I consider her Karma taking over a Zetsu.

So Madara was interacting with only one Zetsu and that was BZ, before he became BZ. Unless he was already BZ from when Kaguya was sealed but fooled Madara into thinking that he created him from the cloned Spiral Zetsu or White Zetsu.
The trickery point makes sense.

That said, why can't Karma be killed off just by cutting off the hand? (Naruto/Sakura can regrow it)
 
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