1)An existence of an endless cycle of rebirth between the three worlds: past, present, and future.
2) Quietly waiting for (what’s) ahead, the wind of catastrophic war…
1) It refers to Orochimaru's immortality, but the wording tells me that this transmigration (The whole sentence means Samasara :
You must be registered for see links
) of Orochimaru has being happening since the Beginning of time (Past + Present + Future) . As such, Orochimaru could predate Kaguya, Shinju and even the creation of NV, He could be the Void made human, The Void existed before the beginning of Creation.
2) You missed that line from the translation : It shows that a great war is gonna erupt in Part 3 which will determine the fate of the universe. This could perhaps reference Ragnorok : The Final battle of the Gods (Norse Mythology). The War does not refer to the Fourth Shinobi World War, It's a war that is yet to come. The wind (Reason for the war) I assume is Sasuke (His Revolution ?).
Well, my theory is that Kaguya represents the Buddhist creator goddess Aditi, so Orochimaru could be the male form which is Brahma, or even more likely he could be the serpent deity.
Shesha (IAST: Śeṣa, Devanagari: शेष), also known as Sheshanaga (IAST: Śeṣanāga, Devanagari: शेषनाग) or Adishesha (IAST: Ādi Śeṣa, Devanāgarī: आदिशेष) is the king of all Nāgas (serpent deities), one of the primal beings of creation, and according to the Bhagavata Purana, an avatar of the Supreme God[1] known as Narayana. It is said that when Adishesa uncoils, time moves forward and creation takes place. When he coils back, the universe ceases to exist.
You must be registered for see links
Whatever the case is, the wording Kishimoto chose is hinting on something big.
Well, my theory is that Kaguya represents the Buddhist creator goddess Aditi, so Orochimaru could be the male form which is Brahma, or even more likely he could be the serpent deity.
Shesha (IAST: Śeṣa, Devanagari: शेष), also known as Sheshanaga (IAST: Śeṣanāga, Devanagari: शेषनाग) or Adishesha (IAST: Ādi Śeṣa, Devanāgarī: आदिशेष) is the king of all Nāgas (serpent deities), one of the primal beings of creation, and according to the Bhagavata Purana, an avatar of the Supreme God[1] known as Narayana. It is said that when Adishesa uncoils, time moves forward and creation takes place. When he coils back, the universe ceases to exist.
You must be registered for see links
Whatever the case is, the wording Kishimoto chose is hinting on something big.
Dragonor told me that you should read Rabbit Teth's posts about Annata Shesha as he has given a very good explanation. Dragonor was the one who gave that translation and he told me to share this.
I was looking at a few Naruto Volume Covers and the Serpent Snake Pose or Cruciform Pose stands out a lot, along with daemonic characteristics. A few that I noticed :-
Obito becoming the Juubi's Jinchuriki, Daemonic Horns.
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke giving into Hatred, Daemonic Susanoo.
You must be registered for see images
Compared to Itachi's holy Susanoo.
You must be registered for see images
This is not from a volume cover, but it's still interesting :-
Pain using Shinra Tensei, Daemonic Eyes (The Rinnegan).
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
I wonder if other characters have also taken this pose ?
I can count : Obito, Sasuke, Deva Path (Above), Nagato (The Wheelchair Pose Symbolism), Madara (When he used TSB against Obito), Edo Itachi (When caught under Kabuto's genjutsu) and Kaguya.
I am sorry for Double posting, but I wanted to share some information.
This is from a series of fillers made in part 1, but I wonder if Kishi is in a mind to connect it to the Demon ?
The Kuruma Clan. Nine Tailed Bijuu, Kuruma Reference. :
You must be registered for see links
Yakumo Kuruma, haunted by a Demon, Ido .She fights against Ido, her Double Daemonic personality. I wonder if Sasuke and Orochimaru would share a similar relationship ? :
You must be registered for see links
Thier Bloodline Limit is a Genjutsu which can make Illusions Reality. Could be Connected to Izanagi and Mugen Tsukuyomi ? :
Maybe on the demon thing but I can't find any mythology on the serpent god being linked to a demon, it is more akin to a god. Well, the fact Oro's gonna need a major power up to fight Naruto makes me think the snake king thing will turn out true.
So far I’ve thrown a lot of ideas out there about how Orochimaru might be the Demon. Some or all of these ideas could amount to nothing. I don’t like starting endless new threads on the same theme so I’ve contained them all in this thread. I’ve still got a couple more ideas to develop but this time I thought I’d focus on a potential real life inspiration for the Demon. I say "a" instead of "the" since I think that Kishi borrows ideas from all kinds of sources and mixes them together to create something new. Up to now I’ve mostly focused on the Demon as a sort of anti god in snake form. This time I thought I’d put out some ideas on the source behind Orochimaru the man. I don’t know whether this idea has any legs but it might help provide some context for the backstory of Orochimaru…
First Emperor
Kishi often borrows from real life myths and legends but there is one legend that might be able to connect a lot of the dots especially with regards to how the Uchiha and the Hyuuga relate to one another. You might not know much about this man but you will certainly be aware of his legacy. He was the First Emperor of China and the tales of this man are so fantastic that many believed the tales were greatly exaggerated at least until fairly recently. I think there’s a chance that Kishi might be using the myth of this man as his inspiration for Orochimaru. It’s way too early to say anything for certain but if you’ll bear with me again, then I’ll try to explain why.
The basic premise of this idea is that there is a backstory that needs to be developed regarding the origins of the Fruit of the Shinju as well as Kaguya’s royal background. What little we know about Kaguya suggests that she underwent some kind of change before she turned into a tyrant and a monster. Hagoromo makes the point that he does not know what happened to his mother to make her turn out the way she did:
You must be registered for see images
At some point the Rabbit Goddess turned into an instrument of the Demon. The Demonic Statues suggest that at some point the Demon also infected Hagoromo and Hamura (see above). This got me thinking about Kaguya’s origins. One thing that stands out about Kaguya is that she was a princess. That means that she was either the daughter of a ruler or the wife of one. Kaguya could have simply been the Queen or Empress but a Princess hints at future developments in my books. Given that we do not know Hagoromo and Hamura’s father there is a decent chance that he could have been Kaguya’s husband.
This got me thinking about legends that tie together Chinese and Japanese history. The Uchiha tend to represent Japanese history (in all its chequered glory). The Hyuuga on the other hand represent Chinese history (with their distinctive Taoist inspired techniques and philosophy. Interestingly there is one figure who jumps out that intersects both Japanese and Chinese history and who had certain predilections for unspeakable practices that have been subtly referenced in the manga.
Qin Shi Huang was the title that the First Emperor of China took for himself after he had conquered the guts of what is now mainland China. Qin refers to the kingdom from which Qin Shi Huang originated and Shi Huangdi roughly translates as First Emperor. The name China is derived from Qin, which expanded during Qin Shi Huang’s lifetime to include all the neighbouring kingdoms that surrounded it. Here is a map of Qin before Qin Shi Huang also showing the surrounding kingdoms that were later absorbed into it:
You must be registered for see images
Qin Shi Huang was born Zheng of the dynasty of Zhou in the minor kingdom of Qin. Rumours surrounded the legitimacy of Zheng in part because his mother had been the former concubine of the Prime Minister and in part because most every tyrant in history has been accused of being illegitimate as though only illegitimate kings could be tyrants.
Zheng was a conqueror who used massive military force, diplomacy and the fractious relationships of his neighbours in order to extend his grip on power. He was known for his brutal tactics and forbreaking with convention in executing prisoners taken during battle. Zheng was a man in a hurry and taking prisoners would have slowed down his conquest.
Qin Shi Huang:
You must be registered for see images
So successful was Qin Shi Huang during his prime that in his later years he started to become obsessed with his own mortality. He became extremely worried about confronting all those he had slain during his lifetime. To solve this problem Zheng came up with two solutions to prepare himself for the afterlife. His first solution was to build a massive army that he could take with him on death that would protect him forever more. His second solution was to defeat death itself and live forevermore through the magic of alchemy.
Nobody believed the stories about Qin Shi Huang until fairly recently when some farmers in China stumbled across his tomb. All of the records of Qin Shi Huang were written long after the man died and were believed to be suspect until they uncovered the full extent of his tomb. His tomb was hidden by a large hill built up on top of a large complex of buildings smilar in scale to the pyramids.
It is hard to imagine how impressive Qin Shi Huang’s tomb is since we cannot see it … it has not been fully excavated. Debates rage about whether or not it is right to disturb the resting places of the dead and there are concerns about how such a tomb could be preserved given the past experience of other tombs (notably what happened to the tombs in Egypt). Nevertheless tests have shown that the fragmentary accounts of Qin Shi Huang’s tomb were more or less accurate.
Underneath the main structure there is a giant football pitch sized chamber, hermetically sealed and made mostly of Bronze. Within the main chamber is said to be a giant model of all the territories once conquered by Qin Shi Huang including flowing rivers of mercury representing every waterway of his empire. On the ceiling of his tomb is said to be a map of the stars, each represented by precious jewels. Surrounding the tomb are numerous chambers filled with thousands of soldiers made of clay, each six feet tall (giants by then standards – we are all a lot taller now thanks to changing diets) and individually sculpted complete with 40,000 bronze weapons.
This clay army is what is known as the Terracotta Army. It featured in Naruto Shippuden the Movie where it was called the Ghost Army. This army was under the command of Yomi (the name of the Japanese Underworld / the Land of the Dead) a necromancer obsessed with resurrecting the Demon.
Terracotta Army:
You must be registered for see images
Ghost Army from Naruto Shippuden Movie
You must be registered for see images
Despite his many great achievements, Qin Shi Huang’s legacy is overshadowed by his later years when the conqueror steadily lost grip with reality. Building his mausoleum was just one of many grand projects started by the mad emperor who relied on large numbers of slaves conscripted into his grand vision. Qin Shi Huang was also responsible for starting construction of the Great Wall of China, to keep nomad invasions out (like the Mongols). However it is his obsession with alchemy that really captures the imagination.
In addition to building a giant army to protect him in the afterlife Qin Shi Huang also employed a vast army of mystics in order to seek out ways of prolonging his life so that he need not face death at all. Qin Shi Huang is famous for consuming large amounts of Mercury and engaging his carnal pleasures in an effort to extend his life.
Mercury was not the best way of achieving this end and is probably responsible for many of the crazy stories surrounding him. Despite Mercury serving many useful functions (think thermometers…) it turns out that the metal is very poisonous. Light contact with the material is not especially toxic but prolonged contact or consumption can damage the brain and internal organs. Alchemists loved the metal in part because it looked so alien to anything seen before it and in part because it is especially useful for extracting gold from other minerals. Early alchemists took this one step too far and attempted to use the liquid metal in order to purify not just gold but the body and the soul of man as well. Unfortunately for the Emperor the Mercury that he consumed to defeat death probably hastened his own but not before it eroded his mind.
This detail of Qin Shi Huang’s life might not seem important to the Manga but it features as part of Orochimaru’s preparation of Sasuke for the Transmigration Ritual. Towards the end of Part 1, Sasuke is given a pill that is said to be an essential step in progressing the Cursed Seal before Sasuke’s body is ready for Orochimaru. This pill is called Seishingan:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Seishingan roughly translates as the Awakening Pill. Breaking down the word though perhaps reveals a better translation that would be Pure Mind’s Eye… Sei=Pure, Shin=God or Mind and Gan= Eye … (I do not speak Japanese or Chinese so don’t hold me to this but this is what I came up with from a little googling of the component parts).
The Pure Mind’s Eye could be read as another term for the Third Eye which was another yet another obsession of Asia’s various mystics and alchemists. The belief was that by bringing oneself close to death through consuming various poisons (including Mercury or unrefined Cinnabar which includes Mercury) that one could open unused parts of the mind that would grant supernatural powers. This is represented in various depictions of gods across Asia and can be seen here on a particularly fine statue from Tibet:
You must be registered for see images
Background to the Third Eye from Wikipedia:
You must be registered for see links
The Third Eye is effectively what Kaguya was able to open by eating the Fruit of the Shinju and what Madara was able to open by drawing closer to the moon (where the Demon was originally sealed by Hagoromo and Hamura):
You must be registered for see images
Qin Shi Huang himself went one step further than simply consuming copious amounts of Mercury and burying himself in a gigantic Liquid Mercury filled tomb. Before his death he sent thousands of men under the command of the court Alchemist called Xu Fu on an expedition to find the fabled Mount Penglai where the Elixir of Immortality was believed to reside:
Expedition
You must be registered for see images
Of course no such Elixir ever existed but the court Alchemist was unlikely to ever admit this and so after being sent on a fool’s errand, Xu Fu and his men never returned. Xu Fu saw what happened to mystics that failed to exhibit supernatural power (Qin Shi Huang burned them alive) and no doubt fled with all the gold he could get his hands on. The expedition is believed to have settled down on the Islands of what now makes up Japan but which then were then full of strange peoples that preceded the rise of the ethnic Japanese (known as the Ainu or Ebisu, a bear worshipping ethnic minority that survive in Japan to this day and are known for their lighter skin tone and blue eyes).
Statue to Xu Fu:
You must be registered for see images
How could this tale be of any significance? Well, Orochimaru is the guy who has been most obsessed with immortality since very early in the series:
You must be registered for see images
It is known that Orochimaru has achieved an Immortality of sorts but he has not been able to find a suitable vessel for his spirit (ahem Sasuke):
You must be registered for see images
The Ootsutsuki were a royal clan before Kaguya ever became a tyrant. She was described as a Princess before she ever ate the fruit of the Shinju in Madara’s flashback:
You must be registered for see images
The Hyuuga trace their Royal Blood directly back to Kaguya. This inheritance is manifested in the Byakugan but their blood is said to be special as well:
You must be registered for see images
The Hyuuga origins are based on Chinese concepts and designs. Their signature technique is based on the Tao’s Bagua which represents the many forces that control the universe:
Hyuuga
You must be registered for see images
Bagua
You must be registered for see images
Hinata’s Twin Lion Fist technique is based on the Lions that are built to symbolically guard Imperial monuments, offices, tombs and temples in China:
Hinata Twin Lions
You must be registered for see images
Chinese Guardian Lions
You must be registered for see images
The Uchiha meanwhile have a shorter history dating back to Indra. Their heritage is all wrapped up in Japanese symbolism including the incorporation of Japan’s most significant deities into their techniques… Izanagi and Izanami for instance are the gods of Shinto credited with creating the islands of Japan:
Izanagi
You must be registered for see images
Izanami
You must be registered for see images
Shinto gods
You must be registered for see images
Amaterasu (the Sun goddess represented by the Japanese Flag) and Tsukuyomi (the Moongod, her brother and husband) meanwhile were the first gods to set foot on Japan and founded Japan’s Royal Dynasty that persists to this day:
Amaterasu
You must be registered for see images
Tsukuyomi
You must be registered for see images
Shinto gods
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Between the heirs to the First Empire of China and the expedition that settled in early Japan, there could be said to be a common ancestry and this common ancestry could in effect be traced back to a tyrant. This got me thinking that maybe… just maybe Orochimaru is an alchemy obsessed former ruler desperate to carry on living even if at the expense of his descendants. If Kishi continues to follow the story of Qin Shi Huang then I would expect Orochimaru / the Demon to be the origin of the Royal Blood flowing in the various offshoots of the Hyuuga, Uchiha, Ootsutsuki, Uzumaki etc, etc …
When Qin Shi Huang sent off legions to find the Elixir of Immortality, the destination was the mythical Mount Penglai:
You must be registered for see images
Such a fantastical location has only jokingly been referenced in Naruto’s play on Lord of the Rings:
You must be registered for see images
There is however a chance that this might be one of the mysterious temples in the Pure Realms that Naruto was transported to by Kaguya:
Lava Realm
You must be registered for see images
Ice Realm
You must be registered for see images
Kaguya never struck me as being particularly evil. Her motivations were shrouded, in part I think because she was not actually evil. Her tears at being reminded of her sons / grandsons seemed genuine right before the Demon retook control.
You must be registered for see images
Demon retaking control
You must be registered for see images
This reminds me of Orochimaru’s tears during the Chuunin Exams invasion. It seems like Orochimaru is crying but I think it might just have been Orochimaru’s host shedding tears. Orochimaru does not have a body of his own and the reason why he wants an empty vessel is probably because his hosts reject him and attempt to resist his will. Here I think that Orochimaru might be stabbing his host in order to resume control and not because of any sentimental connection to Sarutobi:
Orochimaru’s Tears
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Orochimaru is just a Snake that inhabits bodies temporarily, moving from host to host and shedding them like dead skin while he searches for a more permanent body (Sasuke)…
Shedding Skin
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
In Naruto Shippuden the Movie (the first post timeskip film), Naruto eventually gets to take on the Demon who in that film is called Moryo. Moryo translates as Pandemon or “all kinds of serpents/dragons”.
Here is Moryo
You must be registered for see images
Part of me wonders whether Moryo, who is from the Land of Demons, is in fact Orochimaru or indeed one of the Naga (dragons / serpents) that serve him. I would consider Moryo to be simply yet another filler villain except that Moryo looks an awful lot like what infested Hagoromo’s body (the Gedo Mazo)…
Here is Hagoromo’s body, seen twice being infested with similar Snakes
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
… and here is Orochimaru in his natural state just prior to the Transmigration Ritual
You must be registered for see images
If … and it’s a big if… but if Orochimaru represents a Qin Shi Huang style figure then I would expect that Sasuke’s new Sharingan is simply a stepping stone to him opening his Pure Mind’s Eye just as Kaguya did before him…
You must be registered for see images
… at least I hope Kishi can make better use of the Qin Shi Huang legends than the Mummy films did.
how come you keep saying the mazou is hagos body when hago and hamura sealed juubi with ct and hago only took the chakra? the mazou was sent into the moon. altho theres a plothole when kurama said he had the mazou to survive bijuu creation lol.
how come you keep saying the mazou is hagos body when hago and hamura sealed juubi with ct and hago only took the chakra? the mazou was sent into the moon. altho theres a plothole when kurama said he had the mazou to survive bijuu creation lol.
Dragonor tried to explain this with the theory of his.
This idea is based on the basis that in total there are three Gedo Mazou's in NV (There could be more). One is Hamura's shell (The Last), another is Hagoromo's Shell (Which was used in the Fourth Shinobi World War) and the third is the Original Daemonic Juubi's Shell.
The First Sealing
According to Dark Kuruma, there could be multiple Gedo Mazou's. The possibility is there that it could be a translation mistake.
You must be registered for see images
When Sasuke absorbed the Nine Bijuus, his Susanoo acted like a Gedo Mazou. I would assume that any medium which brings the Juubi's chakra together acts like a Gedo Mazou.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Hagoromo and Hamura together fight and seal off the original Juubi.
You must be registered for see images
The idea that Hagoromo used the Sun Seal and Hamura used the Moon seal and later transferred it to Hagoromo does not sit well with me. It's because Hagoromo's staff (Both Sun and Moon at each ends) is a clear indicator that he had both Sun and Moon Seals.
You must be registered for see images
The Sun Leagacy is inherited by Ashura and the Moon Legacy is inherited by Indra, Hagoromo's sons.
Sun Legacy (Ashura).
You must be registered for see images
Moon Legacy (Indra).
You must be registered for see images
So what role did Hamura had in the Juubi's sealing ?
You must be registered for see images
This is where comes out a missing link, I believe is the existence of a third Seal.
The Ootsutsuki clan symbol, Chiba Mon, which is the representative of the Universe consists of three symbols.
You must be registered for see images
Star, Sun and Moon. Morning Star :
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see images
More Info on Chiba Mon here :
You must be registered for see links
I believe Hamura had the Star Seal which was used in the sealing process.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Since three seals (Star by Hamura and Sun and Moon by Hagoromo) were used, the resultant sealing caused a perfect seal creating the First Moon of NV.
You must be registered for see images
The chakra of the Juubi divided as happened in the sealing that we most recently saw. Hamura and Hagoromo divided the Leaking Juubi chakra and sealed it within them.
You must be registered for see images
The Original Juubi, I believe had three components : Shinju, Kaguya and the Demon. The Demon is what Hamura seals within himself and this is what causes the fall of Ootsutsuki. Hagoromo sealed the Shinju and Kaguya chakra components within himself.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
This sealing also lead to the birth of Black Zetsu, a part of the Demon (?).
A recent idea that I have is Black Zetsu is a corrupted Bijuu just Like Kaguya. Nine Bijuus + Kaguya + Shinju + Black Zetsu makes Twelve (Twelve Chinese Zodiac Signs, Lucky Number) Bijuus with Orochimaru, Satan as the Thirteenth Bijuu (Unlucky Number).
You must be registered for see images
The Second Sealing
While Hamura with his clan went to the moon to guard the Demon's shell; Hagoromo remained on Earth.
You must be registered for see images
The Demon did something with his army to cause the Fall of the Ootsutsuki.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The Demon would infect Hamura and steal the Juubi Chakra within him turning him into a Shell, i.e; Hamura Gedo Mazou.
You must be registered for see images
And trapped his soul in the RDS Mask, along with all the Ootsutsuki's in the other masks. The Other Ootsutsuki's bodies were perhaps consumed by Hamura's shell and became White Zetsus (?).
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
RDS : Hamura's spirit, cursed by the Demon.
You must be registered for see images
Hagoromo nearing his old age would divide the Juubi Chakra within him to create the Nine Bijuus.
You must be registered for see images
I think after this the Demon did something and caused Hagoromo to become a Juubi like what happened with Madara.
The Demon stabs Hagoromo.
You must be registered for see images
Infects him with Deamonic Juubi Chakra (Stolen from Hamura).
You must be registered for see images
And transforms him into a Juubi (Madara as a mini Juubi).
You must be registered for see images
The Hagoromo Juubi would cause chaos but be ultimately sealed away by Indra (Moon) and Ashura (Sun). They did cooperate but it did not last because of Black Zetsu's intervention.
You must be registered for see images
The resultant Chibaku Tensei would create the Second Moon of NV and the iconic Gedo Mazou of Hagoromo (His shell).
You must be registered for see images
The Two Moons of NV. One Moon is Full while the other is Crescent. Both Indra and Ashura are facing each other in Battle because of Black Zetsu's intervention. The Last movie also showed NV having Two Moons. I remember Minamoto going mad over it. Lol
You must be registered for see images
The Imperfect Seal
But during the Second Sealing only two seals were used, Sun (Ashura) and Moon (Indra). Such a seal would be imperfect because it lacks the Star Seal. The Chiba Mon would as such be incomplete.
Pain's Chibaku Tensei of Two Seals was prone to Fracture (Two hands joining, Two seals symbolism).
You must be registered for see images
Naruto and Sasuke's Third sealing followed the same concept. While Sakura is there as a third seal (Hidden Symbolism, Trio Punch).
You must be registered for see images
She disappears during the actual sealing Process. No Sakura .
You must be registered for see images
The Sun and Moon coming together was represented like such.
You must be registered for see images
Which is the symbol for in-yō, i.e; Yin-Yang.
You must be registered for see images
This symbol lacks the Star Component and thus is incomplete. Complete Chiba Mon.
You must be registered for see images
Because of the lack of the third seal, the sealing is Imperfect and is commented by Black Zetsu to fracture eventually anyways.
You must be registered for see images
The Second Moon were Hagoromo's shell was sealed by Indra and Ashura was bypassed by Madara by using Hagoromo's eyes (Rinnegan) :
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see images
Toneri slashed the Second Moon (Where Hagoromo's Shell was sealed) in Half and I believe it was empty ? (I have not watched the Movie).
I think that Madara casted Mugen Tsukuyomi from the First Moon where the Original Juubi's shell i.e; Demon was sealed.
You must be registered for see images
The Missing Link
I believe that Orochimaru, The Demon is trying to release the Original Juubi's shell from the First Moon. In order to do so, he would need the Sun, Star and Moon seals to come together forming the Chiba Mon. (If the three can make a seal, they can break it also).
While Sasuke and Naruto did get the Sun and Moon Seals, there is no way they would ever cooperate with Orochimaru in achieving his goals. Orochimaru would manipulate Sasuke (?) to cause this.
You must be registered for see images
While Naruto did get a replacement White Zetsu Arm for the Sun Seal.
You must be registered for see images
What he doesn't know is that the White Zetsus and Hashirama's DNA as a catalyst came from Hagoromo's body infested by the Demon.
You must be registered for see images
At most, in Part 3; I believe Naruto's right arm would get hijacked by Orochimaru :
You must be registered for see links
Sasuke did not get a replacement arm,
You must be registered for see images
But Orochimaru has a preserved Daemonic Left hand for the Moon Seal waiting for him :
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see images
To complete the Chiba Mon and break the Demon's seal, only one Seal, the Star Seal remains. Well, where can Orochimaru get it ?
This detail has being showcased in Part 1, During the Invasion of Konoha. Kabuto under the orders of Orochimaru does a test on Hinata. I will just link one of Rabbit Teth's post on this :
You must be registered for see links
Perhaps, through the test, Orochimaru knows that Hinata is the true heir to the Star Seal of Hamura's ?
You must be registered for see images
With the Three seals coming together, The Chiba Mon will be complete.
You must be registered for see images
And The Demon from the Moon will be unleashed.
You must be registered for see images
P.S: If a Part Three does happen, then by that point, NV will have only one moon where the Juubi was originally sealed (Hagoromo and Hamura's Chibaku Tensei), since the Second Moon (Indra and Ashura's Chibaku Tensei) was sliced in half by Toneri and destroyed in the Last Movie.
The Anomaly
If we assume that Orochimaru is a scientist wanting to create a Perfect and Supreme Body. I think he wanted to bring Star, Sun and Moon Together. Star - Shin, Moon - Reverse Kaballah and Sun - Kaballah.
You must be registered for see images
Which created the Shinju's Fruit and was eaten by Kaguya a test subject of Orochimaru and his wife (?).
You must be registered for see images
But then an anomaly occurred and Orochimaru's experiment failed. Kaguya was only intended to have one son to create the Ultimate Being (Star + Sun + Moon).
You must be registered for see images
But she had two sons.
You must be registered for see images
Hamura inherited the Star Seal and became an anomaly.
You must be registered for see images
Orochimaru knowing the Experiment's failure Caused Kaguya's corruption.
You must be registered for see images
And her transformation into the Juubi.
You must be registered for see images
So that Everything will become One, and Orochimaru can have a fresh start.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Of course, this didn't happen and Orochimaru's plans became even more complicated (We have come full circle).
This is the second half of Dragonor's theory which didn't fit above because the character limit.
The Purging Of Hamura
What really doesn't make sense is why Hamura did not feature in Madara's Flashback.
You must be registered for see images
Hagoromo would not have removed the mention of his brother's existence from the Tablet.
You must be registered for see images
It's only later do we know that Black Zetsu changed the text on the tablet and could have removed Hamura's mention in the tablet.
You must be registered for see images
By purging the knowledge of Hamura's existence, Black Zetsu ensured that no one would realize the existence of a third (Star) seal.
Ensuring that Chibaku Tensei would never be complete.
You must be registered for see images
The Seals
Here, I will do a comparison of the Seals and Symbols of Chiba Mon.
This is Naruto's Sun Seal, A White Circle.
You must be registered for see images
The Chiba Mon Sun Symbol.
You must be registered for see images
Sun Symbolism.
You must be registered for see images
This is Sasuke's Moon Seal, A Crescent Moon.
You must be registered for see images
The Chiba Mon Moon Symbol.
You must be registered for see images
Moon Symbolism.
You must be registered for see images
This is the Star Symbol of Chiba Mon, A Black Sphere.
You must be registered for see images
The Star Seal has not being shown yet, but we got a glimpse (Symbolism) of it as Kaguya's Gudoudama (Big Bang).
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Even Hamura in the Databook page seems to have a circular mark (The Star Seal) on his hand (Quality of the scan is low as it's faded; so I am not really sure on this one).
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
I hope that the Star Seal would get connected to the Hyuuga Clan, i.e; Hinata and will have a major role in Part 3.
how come you keep saying the mazou is hagos body when hago and hamura sealed juubi with ct and hago only took the chakra? the mazou was sent into the moon. altho theres a plothole when kurama said he had the mazou to survive bijuu creation lol.
Sorry for any confusion. I usually just state that Hagoromo's body is the Gedo Mazo rather than repeat the thinking behind this idea again and again (it would get tedious after a while if I did). I am happy to concede it is only a theory even if I do not always qualify my statements. However I do think that there is a weight of evidence in support of this theory and I've been arguing this case long enough to see that evidence mount even if it is not yet proven.
Dragonor’s put together a rough outline of the points I’ve set out above and in earlier theories to answer your question (as well as throw in a couple ideas himself to tie it all together - nice work BTW) but he missed out a couple of points that I think are important.
I'll take this opportunity to refresh some of the basic ideas that I’ve been toying with for years now. This theory has gone through a couple of iterations (I used to write on OMF and ***********’s old forum before I joined this site). Kishi has been drip feeding us with details about the Gedo Mazo for a long time and while we now know more of its story than ever, its or rather his story is yet to be fully revealed. Anyway… here’s an updated summary of the main points:
Gedo Mazo
The birth of the Bijuu is a significant event in the history of Naruto and while we know a lot of the story about this event from various accounts we still do not have the full picture. Broadly speaking the Bijuu were born of Hagoromo using the chakra taken from his mother when she turned into the first Juubi. Juubi simply means ten tails just as Kyuubi means nine tails (so on and so forth down to Shukaku the Ichibi). There has been more than one ten tailed beast Jinchuuriki just as there has been more than one nine tails Jinchuuriki.
Kaguya became the first after she ate the fruit of the Shinju:
You must be registered for see images
She started off as a loving mother:
You must be registered for see images
…later she became a tyrant known as the “Demon”:
You must be registered for see images
… before finally she was began her transformation into something new … this incorporated a new Shinju, the Demon and Kaguya (the “Rabbit Goddess). This beast is what gave birth to Black Zetsu:
You must be registered for see images
Hagoromo and Hamura took away the chakra from this creature and sealed it’s body inside the Moon:
The First Juubi (… that we know about):
You must be registered for see images
The Seal
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
This seal made Hagoromo the Second Jinchuuriki. Eventually but before Hagoromo died and his spirit moved onto a new plane of existence, he lost control of this Chakra and was forced to divide and disperse it. This is how the Nine Bijuu were formed and released:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The Bijuu represent a mixture of all the separate forces at play in Hagoromo’s body before he died. The tails from the Bijuu represent the separate branches of the Tree of Life. For this element of the story Kishi has borrowed from specifically Jewish symbolism and in particular Hanukkah.
Hanukkah is the Festival of Lights / Dedication that celebrates a miracle said to have happened after a rebellion by the Jews against the Seleucids (a Greek Empire that occupied Israel in the 2nd century BC). After rising up and retaking their most holy temple, the Jews lit a candle to rededicate their Temple. According to Jewish custom the candle needed to be kept lit with specially prepared oil but this oil would take eight days to prepare. After retaking the temple the Jews had enough oil for just one day. The miracle said to have happened was that the oil that should have only lasted one day lasted instead for eight, allowing enough time to obtain fresh supplies of oil to be procured to keep the candle lit.
The candles lit in Jewish temples are known as Menorah. The Menorah has six branches which are thought to represent either the six days that the Bible says took God to create the universe and everything in it or are said to represent the classical planets (at least according to figures like Philo Judaeus). The Menorah is usually interpreted as symbolizing either/both the Tree of Life from the Garden of Eden and/or the Burning Bush that spoke to Moses. The Hanukiah shares much of the same symbolism except it references the Miracle of Oil (lasting eight days instead of one). Both the Burning Bush and the Oil from Hannukah are said to have burned without being consumed (God’s fire).
Menorah:
You must be registered for see images
Hanukiah
You must be registered for see images
The Juubi is the negative version of the Shinju. The Shinju effectively represents the Tree of Life but it has been corrupted. This is a theme taken from Kaballah (a sort of mysticism that branched away from Early Judaism) wherein the Sephirot represents the negative version of the Tree of Life. Kishi’s brother used this idea extensively when writing 666 Satan which in turn has greatly influenced Naruto (see earlier posts for more on this)…
Corrupted Shinju
You must be registered for see images
Holy Shinju
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
I think that the placement of the tails on the Bijuu pays homage to the imagery of the candles that represent the Tree of Life. The same or similar customs are also carried out by Christians and other believers in the Tree of Life. In several African cultures the Kinara is lit for special celebrations while in parts of Asia the Qi Xin Deng (七星燈) is used (whose 9 branches represent the Big Dipper - which links into the Morning / North Star theme that I go into in an earlier post). I think though that Kishi is referencing specifically Jewish symbolism in particular because Naruto displays a similar miracle to that marked by Hanukkah. Naruto is the Nine Tails, just as the Hannukiah has Nine Flames, but also Naruto’s Flames are no longer reliant on oil. This is an odd reference but during his special training at Myōbokuzan when Naruto runs out of the special oil that is supposed to allow him to activate Sage mode he continues to produce Senjutsu Chakra nonetheless much to Fukasaku’s surprise:
You must be registered for see images
The center candle is traditionally given special prominence above or below the other candles. In the same way, Kishi tends to put Naruto at the centre of the Jinchuuriki:
You must be registered for see images
…or indeed the Kyuubi at the centre of any representations of the nine Bijuu… as seen in any depiction of nine flames where the middle flame represents the Kyuubi as seen here behind Itachi … the word in the middle circle means “fox”:
You must be registered for see images
The central flame of the Hanukiah is called the Shamash. This flame is given special prominence on the Hanukiah because it effectively represents God. This Flame is described as the attendant flame and is used to light all the others. The Miracle lasted eight days but it was caused by God, hence why the ninth flame is given special status. Shamash though dates back to much earlier beliefs however where he was not just a candle or servant but a Sun god worshipped in Syria:
You must be registered for see images
In the Manga, Naruto occupies the same position in the celestial pantheon as a Sun god… he burns bright and his seal is the Sun seal:
Flame Cloak inherited from Asura and Hagoromo
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
I disagree with Dragonor about Hagoromo’s eyes still being out there waiting to be transplanted again. Instead I think that Hagoromo’s Eyes were split into the Nine Eyes of the Gedo Mazo and that from each of these Nine Eyes emerged one of the Bijuu. The Middle Eye probably represents Kurama. The Gedo Mazo’s eyes reopen when the Bijuu are reinserted into the statue because that’s where they originally came from – i.e. Hagoromo’s body:
You must be registered for see images
All nine eyes were reopened after Tobi threw portions of the Eight and Nine Tails into the Statue (using the Kyuubi’s chakra in the Gold and Silver Brothers and the tail’s worth of chakra taken from Killer B by Sasuke):
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The nine eyes on the Gedo Mazo effectively show where the Bijuu were originally expelled or dragged out of Hagoromo before he died. We are yet to learn the exact circumstances of his death but I imagine that that will take up a lot of Part 3.
The Bijuu themselves share certain traits in common with the Gedo Mazo and Hagoromo’s Body as well as his Spirit form. You will notice that Gyuuki has the same beard as the Gedo Mazo:
Hachibi
You must be registered for see images
Gedo Mazo
You must be registered for see images
…while when Kurama is reforming out of a pool of pure Chakra he has the full length beard of Hagoromo (it’s subtle but I don’t think it was accidental):
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The Bijuu also show signs of their heritage from the Demon. Shukaku carries the cursed seal:
You must be registered for see images
Meanwhile, Kurama has the Demon’s Eyes. The Demon’s Eyes are Orochimaru’s Eyes. I think that Orochimaru’s influence and power is displayed wherever we see either the Cursed Seal or the Demon Eyes. These Eyes are often used to represent the internal struggles of various characters with their own Demons. Kishi uses a lot of Yin and Yang symbolism and symmetry to display this. The secret is hidden in their eyes … so to speak. Kurama has the same Eyes as Orochimaru (the Demon):
Kurama’s Eyes
You must be registered for see images
Orochimaru’s Eyes
You must be registered for see images
Naruto and Sasuke share the same same struggle against their internal Demon’s. This is much of the reason why Naruto feels such a connection to Sasuke:
You must be registered for see images
Naruto however is able to stand up to his Demon and use it’s power for good:
You must be registered for see images
Naruto in the end is able to combine his power with the Demon Fox:
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke on the other hand gave into his Demon:
You must be registered for see images
… as did Kabuto:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
… as did Obito (NB Snake Skin)
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
… as did Gaara (Eye of Horus)
You must be registered for see images
and as did Kaguya (Eye of Horus)
You must be registered for see images
This same device is used by Kishimoto’s twin in 666 Satan where Satan and his influence is represented with the same eyes and cursed seal design:
O Parts Hunter / Naruto – Satan / Demon Comparison
Cursed Seal Satan
You must be registered for see images
Cursed Seal Sasuke
You must be registered for see images
Temptation of Jio by Satan
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Temptation of Sasuke by Orochimaru
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Satan in Jio Freed
You must be registered for see images
Demon Fox in Naruto
You must be registered for see images
Satan’s Eyes 666
You must be registered for see images
Demon’s Eyes Naruto (Orochimaru the Demon, Kurama the Demon Fox and Naruto losing the battle for control)
You must be registered for see images
Satan over shoulder glance
You must be registered for see images
Cursed Seal Sasuke over shoulder glance (NB 666 Cursed Seal Bite Mark)
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Satan looking through another’s eyes 666
You must be registered for see images
Demon looking through Sasuke’s eyes Naruto
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The Juubi unleashed
You must be registered for see images
Demon Kaguya with the world under her gaze
You must be registered for see images
Satan 666 Unleashed
You must be registered for see images
The Jinchuuriki that are best suited to containing the Bijuu tend to be ones that show signs of a heritage tracing back to Hagoromo. I’ve already covered at length how Naruto and Kushina from the Uzumaki Clan are likely descendants of Asura. It is worth noting that Gaara is also likely an heir to Asura albeit from a different branch of the family (excuse the pun). You will notice Gaara and his father both have the same distinctive red hair as the Uzumaki and also that Gaara’s gourd has the same markings on it as Asura’s fully formed Chakra Cloak:
WMW Gaara
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Asura
You must be registered for see images
Getting back to the topic at hand, a further clue is how Hagoromo, the Gedo Mazo and the Statue to Hagoromo in the Fire Temple all strike the same pose. Here is the Gedo Mazo chained to the Lotus:
You must be registered for see images
…here is the Fire Temple Statue:
You must be registered for see images
… and here is Hagoromo on another plane of existence:
You must be registered for see images
One final clue that has cropped up recently is how the Ootsutsuki all wear the same robes as the Gedo Mazo except in reverse. You may not think of the Gedo Mazo as wearing robes but the design is evident when shown from a distance:
Gedo Mazo
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Ootsutsuki (from Naruto The Last)
You must be registered for see images
This whole thread attempts to explain what went wrong with Kaguya, Hagromo and his sons. None of their stories has been fully explored in the manga (at least not yet – I think they’ll be addressed in a Part 3 or in future movies). Even in the latest film we are being teased with new developments. For instance I think that Hagoromo is not the only one to have been turned into a statue… his brother Hamura was as well. Just as Hagoromo’s features appear on the Gedo Mazo so do Hamura’s traits on a new Demonic Statue from the Last. Look closely at the hair, the tomoe necklace and the eyes (especially the eyes) of the new statue and the older Hamura:
You must be registered for see images
Golem from The Last
You must be registered for see images
Noise, I hope that answers your question.
I’ll leave you with the Kung Fu cliché that gave birth to Hagoromo and which inspired one of Tarantino’s characters from Kill Bill - I hope at some point we get to see Hagoromo fight. Whoever cut Hagoromo's beard had to have been strong...
[video=youtube;i-iB755cw3s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-iB755cw3s[/video]
Next up I'm going to confuse everyone by going high concept and tackling the Void - at least it should be interesting but it involves explaining the numbers behind some of the symbolism.
Before Part 1 started, A Demon Fox, Kuruma attacked Konoha.
You must be registered for see images
Kuruma never willingly attacked Konoha. He was put under a Genjutsu by Obito to do so.
You must be registered for see images
Obito attacked Konoha under the Guise of Tobi (Masked Man). Fun Trivia : Notice the Chiba Mon on Tobi's mask.
You must be registered for see images
The Fourth Databook has confirmed that Tobi was part Obito and part Spiral Zetsu.
You must be registered for see images
Spiral Zetsu was a part of the Original Demon born from the Gedo Mazou, Hagoromo's body.
You must be registered for see images
Kuruma even recognizes the Demon, i.e; Spiral Zetsu.
You must be registered for see images
The Kyuubi was sealed away by the Reaper Death Spirit who I would speculate to be Hamura. Fun Trivia :The Blade in his mouth could be Hagoromo's sword broken off. Hagoromo wielded the sword along with his staff in the battle against the First Juubi.
You must be registered for see images
See the Long Hair of Hamura clutching the Soul ?
You must be registered for see images
This characteristic is shared by Kaguya, Hamura's Mother. Clutching Naruto and Sasuke with her hair.
You must be registered for see images
As I theorized before Hamura had the Star Seal.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Kuruma, The Demon is sealed away in a Star (Hamura's Seal) in between the Sealing arch.
You must be registered for see images
Gudoudama, Star Symbolism.
You must be registered for see images
Chiba Mon Star.
You must be registered for see images
In Part Two, The Demon Juubi is Reborn.
You must be registered for see images
But the Juubi was a Sentient Being.
You must be registered for see images
Kishi repeats the pattern in part 1 in part 2 as the Demon Juubi is manipulated by our two Stars Obito and Madara.
You must be registered for see images
Kaguya, The Demon and a Part of the Juubi is also controlled by the Demon. Those blank eyes are a clear giveaway.
You must be registered for see images
Kaguya is sealed away by the Sun and Moon seals, Hagoromo's seals.
You must be registered for see images
As is shown by this arch.
You must be registered for see images
But the Star component is not present as it is Hamura's Inheritance.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Whereas The Sun and Moon are Hagoromo's Inheritence.
You must be registered for see images
The sealing arch is still not complete.
You must be registered for see images
In part 3, I believe the Three seals will come together.
You must be registered for see images
Re-creating the Chiba-Mon, the Ootsutsuki clan symbol.
You must be registered for see images
The sealing arch will become a Triangle, with three sides.
You must be registered for see images
And the Demon will be sealed away for eternity, as hinted by Jashin's Triangle.
I got a chance to see The Last. The film is actually much better than I thought it would be (but then again I’ve always been rooting for NaruHina). Having watched the film, it’s gotten me to rethink a couple of the ideas I’ve been developing. If you want to avoid spoilers then stop reading now.
Fate of the Ootsutsuki
In the Last the Ootsutsuki get about 20 seconds of backstory but those 20 seconds are packed with hidden detail. First it is revealed that the Ootsutsuki split into two clans who both called themselves the Ootsutsuki, a main family and a branch family. Toneri belongs to the branch family. This symbol is the branch family’s symbol:
Ootsutsuki Symbol
You must be registered for see images
The Main Family use a Sun Symbol as their crest - the closest match is the Surya Majapahit Symbol (credit to the Naruto Wiki for this one):
You must be registered for see images
The Main and Branch Families fought a civil war in which the Branch Family used a super-weapon to annihilate the Main Family. The Super-Weapon is a giant orb that wipes out the Main family in seconds (seen via a flashback left to Hinata from an Ootsutsuki dying remnant). I think that Kishi took inspiration for this from ancient relics of another Sun god called Shamash (discussed above) – the weapon looks kind of like this:
Tablet of Shamash
You must be registered for see images
The weapon clearly did not belong to the branch family because it bore the symbol of the Main Family Crest on its pedestal in the film. What happened between these two families is not clear but there is clearly more to be revealed in future content (upcoming movies / part 3).
Hamura’s Spirit visits Hinata in the movie in order to warn her to stop Toneri using the Tenseigan to destroy the world. This visit convinces me that Hamura is not the Demon – which has been a lingering doubt for me since his character was introduced (guess that just leaves Orochimaru) – though I still think he could be the RDS.
Hamura is shown with a new symbol. This symbol isn’t one that I’ve seen before in the manga. It is an Eight Pointed Star that is noticeably different to the Main Family Crest – this symbol looks almost exactly like the Star of Inanna / Ishtar:
You must be registered for see images
This symbol is seen above Hamura’s death bed and outside an Ootsutsuki Temple. I think that this symbol represents Kaguya. Inanna is the goddess of Love and Ishtar is the goddess of war. These goddesses were effectively one and the same goddess depending on the phase of Venus (which at certain points of the year appears in the morning as the Morning Star and at other times of the year appears in the evening as the Evening Star but which are one and the same). Both the Morning and Evening Star appear during Part 2 at the beginning and end of the war:
Morning / Evening Star
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Ishtar (War) / Inanna (Love)
You must be registered for see images
Kaguya (War)
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Kaguya (Love)
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Demon Kaguya / Ishtar Comparison
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Interestingly Inanna is a goddess who is usually flanked by two lions. This might connect Kaguya and Hinata at some point in the future, who is constantly referred to as the Byakugan Princess during the film…
Inanna’s Twin Lions:
You must be registered for see images
Hinata’s Twin Lions
You must be registered for see images
One mystery that is not addressed during the film is what caused the rift between the Main and Branch families. Hamura’s Spirit warns against the branch family but the branch family (at least Toneri) seems to believe that it has been left with the task of fulfilling Hamura’s “Celestial Decree”[to destroy the world and start again if mankind misuses Chakra]. It would seem that the Demon or Black Zetsu were busy in the past setting families against themselves just as they did with Hagoromo’s Sons (Indra and Asura) and Heirs (Uchiha and Senju). Toneri, like Madara before him, appears to be following a fake prophecy:
You must be registered for see images
Also, Toneri was left alone from a very young age. It is not explained what happened to the branch family but there are large numbers of puppets around that look like they might have been made from Toneri’s kin (though not by Toneri) …
Branch Family Ootsutsuki:
You must be registered for see images
Marionettes left to raise Toneri:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
There is also a hint that Naruto might belong to the Main Family. When Naruto goes to destroy the Tenseigan he is told by Hinata not to touch it because only those with the right Chakra can touch it. Hinata then throws herself at the Tenseigan but cannot breach it. Naruto and Hinata then join hands to destroy the Orb. This seems to me to suggest that both Naruto and Hinata both have Royal Blood though by different branches of the same family. The Hyuuga are confirmed by Toneri to be descendants of Hamura during the film but Hamura describes Hagoromo as his elder brother… which might even make the Hyuuga another branch family rather than the main family.
I only saw a very badly recorded pirated version that was up on youtube so I could be wrong on some of the details. I’ll have to wait for the film to be released on iTunes to get a better view. For anyone who can, I would strongly suggest watching it at the cinema. I thought the film was worth the price of admission – I kind of envy those who live near complexes showing the film. I would also consider the film canon since it ties in so many important details from the manga (though I know there are some who might disagree).
I’ll get back to the Void next time… I thought it more important to cover the developments in the film first. These were the most important things I spotted … there may be other details I missed. There are more loose ends after the film than there were before it which makes me hopeful that Kishi isn't planning on retiring any time soon even if he's on a break right now.
I see some similarities here between the Main and Branch families of the Ootsutsuki and the Hyuuga :-
The Main Family posses the divine power of the Proginator, Kaguya being one of them. The Sun/Star symbol of the Main Branch Ootsutsuki perhaps represents that power. The Hyuuga main family possess a Royal Bloodline which could be traced back to the Proginator, Kaguya.
The Branch Family of the Ootsutski had the power to seal away the Proginator's power. The seal and symbol of the family was the Chiba Mon which divided into Sun, Moon and Star. The same happens with the Hyuuga Branch family because they have a seal on their forehead (Where the Third Eye/All seeing Eye awakens) which seals away the Byakugan, a heritage from the Proginator, Kaguya.
I think the Main Family and the Branch Family work in tandem to spread the Proginator's powers (Main Family) and at the same time seal it away (Juubi) if the power goes out of control (Branch Family). Orochimaru perhaps wanted to bring both Branch and Main Families goal's together so that if the power goes out of control, it can't be sealed away ?
And Orochimaru failed in his attempts because of Hamura, an anamoly ?
Hey Dragonor / Reznōr, welcome back. I don't know if the new name is in honour of NIИ but here're some thoughts on the Void ...
The Downward Spiral(s)
This idea is at the more speculative end of the theories contained in this thread. I wanted to try and explain all the Spirals contained in the manga and what their significance might be within the framework of the idea of the Demon. They could just be window dressing but they could hold deeper meaning. Generally speaking I think there are three Spirals that are currently in the possession of three different characters. Naruto has one, Sasuke has another and Spiral has the third. Each Spiral corresponds to a natural force over and above the elements. I would suggest that the last person to collect all three Spirals was the Demon, although Indra managed to collect two. At least, that’s the short version of this theory, here’s the long…
Triple Spiral
The Triple Spiral is the power that once belonged to the Demon. The Demon represents the forces of Primordial Chaos. This represents the force that existed before the Universe came into existence. Yin and Yang are generally speaking considered the dominant forces of the Universe but they were not the first. Before Yin and Yang there is said to have been nothingness or the Void. In the Tao this Void is called Wuji, in Shinto these three forces are described as three gods … the Kotoamatsukami. In Naruto I think these three forces might correspond to the Triple Spiral that appears in the Uzumaki Shrine…
Triple Spiral:
You must be registered for see images
...and which appeared on Zabuza’s Demon Shroud (when activated with Kabuto and Orochimaru’s Chakra)
You must be registered for see images
A couple of details about the Uzumaki Shrine really stand out. First there are the masks. These masks are called Oni Masks in real life. One of these masks has power over the Reaper Death Seal, which Orochimaru commandeered to summon the former Hokage:
Reaper Death Seal
You must be registered for see images
Oni Masks
You must be registered for see images
These masks seem to depict the Ootsutsuki. The horns on the masks are the distinguishing feature of Kaguya’s family:
Horns
You must be registered for see images
Over time the Ootsutsuki lost their horns but these horns appear on most chakra cloaks when activated:
Naruto Chakra Cloak Horns
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke Chakra Cloak Horns (NB his Susanoo also has the Gedo Mazo / Hagoromo’s beard)
You must be registered for see images
Toneri Chakra Cloak Horn
You must be registered for see images
One interpretation of the Uzumaki Shrine would be that the Shrine marks Kaguya’s tyranny. Kaguya had three eyes, which could correspond to the Spirals on the Shrine. The black flames engulfing the Oni Masks could be a record of the Ootsutsuki’s brutal past.
This was my original reading of the Uzumaki shrine but there is one detail that doesn’t sit right with me. Kaguya only had one Sharinnegan. I think Spiral Eyes are the next stage of the Sharinnegan. Only Kaguya’s third Eye was a Sharinnegan, her other two eyes were Byakugan:
You must be registered for see images
Indra had two Sharingan – the first stage before Sharinnegan
You must be registered for see images
Later his eyes were able to activate the Spiral Dojutsu shown in the Uzumaki Shrine
You must be registered for see images
We haven’t yet seen the Spiral Eyes in action but I suspect they are equivalent to the Mangekyo version of the Sharinnegan. The power of the Sharingan is measured by how many Tomoe are activated. The Tomoe are like tails on a tailed beast. The more Tomoe activated, the more power becomes accessible to the user until a limit is reached (so far we've only seen 9). The development of the Sharinnegan seems to follow a process. It starts with the Sharingan, which hits a limit of three Tomoe before Mangekyo can be activated:
One Tomoe
You must be registered for see images
Two Tomoe
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Three Tomoe
You must be registered for see images
Mangekyo
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The Sharinnegan allows access to the next phase of this Dojutsu. Where the Sharingan hits its limit at three Tomoe the Sharinnegan have shown up to nine Tomoe:
Sasuke 6 Tomoe
You must be registered for see images
9 Tomoe
You must be registered for see images
I think that the limit for Tomoe, like the limit for tails, is 10. Following the progression of the Tomoe on the Sharingan and Sharinnegan you will notice how the Tomoe arrange themselves into pyramids. If you build the pyramid up to 10 then the symbol that emerges is known as a Tetractys. It was a symbol associated with a man called Pythagoras and it serves as a breakdown of elemental forces (… much like the Earth, Wind, Fire, Lightning and Earth breakdown used in Naruto).
Tetractys
You must be registered for see images
Hopefully you’ll have heard of Pythagoras. He was a philosopher from the small Greek island of Samos who lived from around 570 to 495 BC. Pythagoras is famous for being something of a mystic but he was also a pioneer in various fields of study. He is generally credited with being the first philosopher. That is not to say that he was the first great thinker but that he came up with the word Philosophy (the love of knowledge). Pythagoras’s discoveries are common knowledge now but his way of thinking still represents a landmark in our understanding of the universe. He was one of the first to be able to break down the laws of nature into easy to follow mathematical models and rules. He is perhaps most famous for discovering the ratio of lengths on a right-angled triangle (A Squared + B Squared = C Squared):
You must be registered for see images
This rule can be used to draw another of Pythagoras’s symbols – the Pythagorean Spiral:
You must be registered for see images
Indra’s Eyes
If the Sharinnegan is in fact the first stage towards activating the Spiral Eyes then it is worth asking the question of what happened to Indra’s Eyes. I would propose that Indra once possessed two of the Spirals that once belonged to the Demon. In his early years Indra is shown with two Sharingan…
Indra’s Eyes
You must be registered for see images
In his later years Indra was able to activate his eyes into a special Dojutsu that matches the demonic markings in the Uzumaki Shrine and which were probably more than just simple mangekyo…
Spiral Eyes
You must be registered for see images
So what became of these eyes. I think it is fairly easy to isolate where one of these eyes went. Sasuke is the successor to Indra and is inhabited by his Spirit. I believe that Sasuke recently received one of Indra’s Eyes which was unlocked by Hagoromo:
Indra’s Left Eye (?)
You must be registered for see images
I think that Indra’s other Eye belongs to Spiral Zetsu. Spiral Zetsu is a unique White Zetsu. All White Zetsu were once humans:
You must be registered for see images
I think there’s a good chance that Spiral Zetsu is in fact a White Zetsu made from the remains of Indra. We know from Hagoromo that Indra and Asura’s bodies were destroyed:
You must be registered for see images
I think that Indra and Asura might have been two of the first victims of the Gedo Mazo. The White Zetsu in Madara’s Lair before Akatsuki were formed would have been made from souls gathered prior to the Gedo Mazo being sealed in the Moon.
In some of the images of the fight between the Sage and the Juubi you will notice that the Juubi is enormous and fighting two figures – Hagoromo (carrying a double ended sun and moon staff) and Hamura (with a sort of Trident):
You must be registered for see images
In other depictions of the struggle with the Juubi you will notice that the Juubi is relatively small and fighting a solitary figure carrying the Sun Staff (as opposed to the Sun and Moon Staff of Hagoromo):
You must be registered for see images
I would suggest that one explanation for this is that there have been two Juubi. The first was Kaguya, who needed to be trapped by her two sons working together. I think that the Second Juubi was either Hagoromo or Indra fighting Asura.
Hagoromo is recorded by Tobi as having lost control of the Juubi’s chakra just prior to his death. This, according to Tobi, is why Hagormo divided the Juubi’s Chakra into the Bijuu and why he sealed his body into the Moon:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
It would make sense that Asura needed to get involved to help prevent the Juubi’s chakra getting out of control. What makes less sense is why Indra wasn’t there to help. Maybe Indra was the first to fall to the Second Juubi, maybe he attempted to take control of the Juubi’s chakra himself and so needed to be defeated by Asura. Either way, I think that both Indra and Asura fell to the second Juubi and that their bodies were converted into two special White Zetsu that stand out amongst all the rest:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Spiral Zetsu like indra is an individual:
You must be registered for see images
Asura however was able to share his chakra with an entire army… just as the original White Zetsu was able to copy himself onto the White Zetsu Army (a Sun Staff ability?):
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
I think this might explain why all White Zetsu look much more like Asura than Hashirama (whose cells they were supposed to have been cloned from)…
Face Comparison
Asura
You must be registered for see images
Hashirama
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
White Zetsu
You must be registered for see images
This also might explain why Obito only carried the Sun Staff – half his body was made from White Zetsu
You must be registered for see images
… as opposed to the Moon Staff carried by Madara (former host to Indra)
You must be registered for see links
… or the Sun and Moon Staff (the Sage’s complete legacy)
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke only inherited one of Indra Spiral Eyes, which was unlocked by Hagoromo. I think that the other belongs to Spiral Zetsu – the body of Indra. This might be what was used to activate Mugen Tsukuyomi:
You must be registered for see images
This Sharinnegan, the Eye that activates the Eye of the Moon Plan, is grown by a Flower, not the Holy Tree (the Shinju):
You must be registered for see images
Tobi (Spiral Zetsu) grew a giant death flower when Obito was attacked by Hunter Nin:
You must be registered for see images
Perhaps the Sharinnegan flower belongs to Indra – or at least the White Zetsu that was made out of him. This might provide another explanation of why when asked what he really wanted Tobi said that he wanted to become complete:
You must be registered for see images
…and why Spiral Zetsu appears to have been following Sasuke in the final chapter of Part 2:
Tobi turning into shrub?
You must be registered for see images
Shrub following Sasuke?
You must be registered for see images
Sasuke Spooked by something in the woods or the woods themselves (?)
You must be registered for see images
… at least it would make for a good starting point to Part 3.
Uzumaki
The Third Spiral resides with Naruto. Naruto himself is named after two spirals. Naruto is a small coastal town in Japan that is famous for its whirlpools. The name Naruto itself can be translated as Whirlpool. These Whirlpools can be seen from the Naruto Bridge … sort of like the Great Naruto Bridge from Part 1…
Naruto Whirlpools in Japanese Art
You must be registered for see images
Naruto Whirlpools in real life
You must be registered for see images
Naruto Bridge in real life
You must be registered for see images
Great Naruto Bridge
You must be registered for see images
Uzumaki meanwhile translates as Maelstrom. A maelstrom is just another word for extreme storms which are made by weather patterns that look like this:
You must be registered for see images
Naruto the character has two chakra networks. When fighting Neji during the Chuunin Exams, we got to see Naruto’s second Chakra Network – the one that allowed him to access Kurama’s chakra:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Naruto’s normal chakra network does not have a Spiral:
You must be registered for see images
Both of Naruto’s kids are named after Spirals. A Bolt is just a type of Screw (the thread of which is a Spiral):
Bolt / Screw (Neji means Screw in Japanese)
You must be registered for see images
Himawari’s Spiral is harder to explain. To explain her Spiral, I’ll need to bore you with some more mathematics (I promise it’s more interesting than you’d think). In particular I’ll need to explain how the Fibonacci Sequence appears in Nature. The Finbonacci Sequence starts with the number one and makes each new number in the sequence by adding together the previous two…
The Fibonacci Sequence:
1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, 4181, 6765, 10946, 17711, 28657, 46368, 75025, 121393, 196418, 317811, ...
The Fibonacci Sequence can be drawn as a Spiral. When you draw out the sequence using squares and connect the corners of these squares then you will get this Pattern:
You must be registered for see images
This Spiral Pattern appears all throughout nature, take for example the shells of the Nautilus
You must be registered for see images
…or the curve of storm:
You must be registered for see images
The Fibonacci Sequence also appears in the placement of seeds on flowers, leaves on plants and pines on pine cones. Look closely at most plants or flowers and you will see a complex structure of spirals (the pattern maximises efficiency for successful dispersal of seeds and to optimise access to sunlight for leaves).
Aloe Spiral
You must be registered for see images
Naruto dubbed White Zetsu Aloe Vera
You must be registered for see images
The number of arms on these Spirals can be traced and counted – the resultant number will normally be a Fibonacci number in certain plants. The most famous example of this is the Sunflower:
You must be registered for see images
Look closely at the position of the seeds and you should be able to make out the pattern – arms in both directions hit Fibonacci numbers:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Himawari’s Sunflower and Bolt’s Bolt combine to form a sort of compound Spiral emblem:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
If you like numbers then here’s a great video explaining how these Spirals are formed and counted:
[video=youtube;ahXIMUkSXX0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahXIMUkSXX0[/video]
Spirals are clearly important to the Uzumaki clan. Their Symbol is the Spiral that many Shinobi from Konoha wear on their Uniforms:
Uzumaki Shrine
You must be registered for see images
Jonin Uniform
You must be registered for see images
This Symbol probably represents both the Sun and Yang. Naruto is the successor to Asura, the son who inherited Hagoromo's Sun Emblem and the Uzumaki Clan who inherited the Sage's Yang Chakra. The Sun and Yang are usually associated with one another, just as the Moon is associated with Yin. Both Asura and Naruto when they activate their chakra cloaks light up like the Sun (Naruto's Spiral also becomes apparent on his chest):
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Uzumaki Yang Chakra
You must be registered for see images
Indra Yin and Asura Yang
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You may have noticed how some of the Uzumaki relics showing the Spiral also radiate like the Sun (this Spiral has rays):
You must be registered for see images
Watching Naruto The Last, the Ootsutsuki Main family has a sun symbol that looks like this Sun Symbol:
You must be registered for see images
Most of the Main family are shown wiped out during the film by Toneri’s Branch Family. The Hyuuga are explained during the film to be heirs of Hamura (the youger brother od Hagoromo). I wonder whether the Uzumaki were the true heirs to the Ootsutsuki given their shared Sun Symbolism. The importance of the Uzumaki clan might also explain why they were wiped out even if it’s never been fully explained by who or why:
You must be registered for see images
If the Uzumaki Clan are the true heirs to the Sun Spiral then it would make sense that the Uchiha are the heirs to the Moon Spiral (the Sharinnegan that Sasuke has). This would leave one more Spiral to account for from the original Triple Spiral…
Sun and Moon
You must be registered for see images
The Void
Assuming that Naruto and Sasuke are the modern day bearers of two of the three original Spirals and that these two spirals represent the Sun and Moon, then there remains one more Spiral to account for.
One explanation of the third spiral would be that it could represent the power of the Shinju. This might be symbolized by the emblem of Konoha – the Spiral contained in a Leaf:
You must be registered for see images
Konoha is often described as being more than just a village but a Tree. Root, the secret organization that operated under the control of Danzo and Orochimaru describe their mission as to uphold the sacred tree:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The origin for the Spirals could be explained as having come from the evil Shinju whose chakra turned Kaguya into the Demon Rabbit Goddess in the first place …
Shinju Fruit Spirals:
You must be registered for see images
I tend not to trust that the Shinju was the original source of evil. The Fruit of the Shinju is probably where Hagoromo obtained his power over both Yin and Yang and what allowed Kaguya to stop wars but I doubt that the Shinju is what corrupted Kaguya. Madara talks about the Shinju as being the origin of the Juubi but Hagoromo (who I consider more reliable) never talks about the Shinju as being anything less than the Holy Tree:
Evil Shinju – Madara’s account
You must be registered for see images
Holy Tree – Hagoromo’s version
You must be registered for see images
A second explanation might be that the Third Spiral is represented by the Diamond of the Byakugou. When Hagoromo performed Chibaku Tensei, there were two obvious symbols – the Sun and Moon, but also one less apparent symbol – the Black Diamond formed by Hagoromo’s hands:
You must be registered for see images
When Kaguya was sealed she was attacked from three sides. Naruto had the Sun Seal and Sasuke had the Moon Seal but Sakura had her Byakugou:
You must be registered for see images
The Black Diamond made by Hagoromo’s hands looks a lot like the Yin Seal of the Byakugou
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Finally, my favourite explanation of the Third Spiral is that this Spiral represents the Void. The Void would be what you’d call the Universe before the Big Bang. In the Tao this would correspond to Wuji which came before Taiji (Yin and Yang as represented by the Moon and Sun respectively). These forces correspond to the Three Pure Ones (Yuánshǐ Tiānzūn, "the Lord of Primordial Beginning", Shàngqīng “the Supreme Pure One" and Tàiqīng "the Grand Pure One")…
The Three Pure Ones:
You must be registered for see images
In Shinto the Void corresponds to the first Kami known as Amatsu-Mikaboshi (the god of evil and the Primordial Chaos). This god came before the the Kotoamatsukami - “the Distinguished Heavenly Gods “ who are also known as the Zōka no Sanshin -“the Three Gods of Creation” (Ame-no-Minakanushi-no-Kami, “the supreme god”; Takamimusuhi-no-Kami - “the god of Conquest and Rule; and Kamimusuhi-no-Kami – “the god of Birth” … they don’t appear in human form, this is a feature of later generations of Kami).
Amatsu Mikaboshi (Marvel version)
You must be registered for see images
The Demon (?)
You must be registered for see images
A Triple Spiral could therefore correspond to the three fundamental forces of both the Tao and the principle gods of Creation in Shinto.
In Hindu tradition, Shesha is the Naga (Demon) who accompanies Brahma in various Hindu religious paintings. Shesha represents the beginning and end of the Universe.
Shesha Spiral (Coiled Snake / 2 Spirals and a Diamond on the face)
You must be registered for see images
Shesha and Brahma
You must be registered for see images
Shesha and Brahma on the Sea of Milk
You must be registered for see images
Great White Snake
You must be registered for see images
Orochimaru’s Sea of Milk (former sacrifices?)
You must be registered for see images
Orochimaru’s True Form
You must be registered for see images
The Primordial Chaos that existed before creation has been depicted by various different Spirals in lots of cultures. Here’s another religious Spiral known as the Gankyil that can represent the Primordial Chaos – Kishi tends to slip lots of religious imagery into explosions, dust clouds etc.etc.:
Gankyil
You must be registered for see images
Tobi’s Kamui
You must be registered for see images
My favourite Spiral depicting the Void, however, is the one used as the logo for the New Era Project. I’ve put up one painting by Van Gogh already – a painting of Sunflowers that was destroyed in Japan during WW2. A second painting by Van Gogh probably had an indirect influence on Kishi when he was developing his manga. Here is a a painting called Starry Night:
You must be registered for see images
The painting Starry Night in turn inspired a Manga that came out between 1998 and 1999, called Uzumaki:
You must be registered for see images
The original Starry Night by Van Gogh was inspired by a drawing of a Spiral Galaxy drawn by an early astronomer called Lord Rosse. The Galaxy that Lord Rosse drew has at various times been known as the Whirlpool Galaxy (think Naruto) and the Sunflower Galaxy (think Himawari) but which now goes by the name the Andromeda Galaxy:
Lord Rosse’s Drawing 1845
You must be registered for see images
The New Era Project appears to have taken this drawing as the inspiration for its new logo which appears throughout the promotional material for The Last and the latest Databook:
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
The Andromeda Galaxy is a giant formation in Space made up millions of stars and planets revolving around a Supermassive Black Hole. Our Solar System is contained in a similar Galaxy known as the Milky Way which revolves around a Supermassive Black Hole in Sagittarius A
Milky Way
You must be registered for see images
The Andromeda Galaxy and our Galaxy, the Milky Way, are due to collide in about 4 billion years. We can see the Andromeda Galaxy heading right for us at 110 kilometres per second (68 mi/s). It’s hard to say what will happen when these two galaxies collide - one galaxy might bounce the other away, the two might merge or they might pass through each other but the night sky should get a lot more interesting over the next couple of billion years.
Andromeda in Greek Mythology was a princess sacrificed by her family to pacify the gods who were insulted when her mother said she was more beuautiful than the Sea Nymphs. Poseidon (god of the sea), under the influence of Hades (god of the underworld), sends a giant sea monster known as Cetus in order to eat her but she is saved by the hero Perseus. If you’ve ever watched Clash of the Titans or Wrath of the Titans – this is the story told in those films.
Andromeda
You must be registered for see images
It’s not as though the Demon hasn’t tried to open a Black Hole before:
You must be registered for see images
Only one person wears the Void Ring though. Orochimaru’s Ring from Akatsuki was the Kū Ring – Kū means the Void
You first say that the Three spirals are Sun, Moon and Void. They together form the Kotoakatsumi. But then you say that the Void existed before Creation and from Creation was formed three gods, i.e; the Kotoakatsumi. That confused me. Lol I would assume in total, there are four forces :-
Yin (Sun,Physical), Yang (Moon,Spiritual), Shizen (Star,Nature/Cosmic) and Void (Tomoe).
Also, in the Last, someone said that Naruto was able to use Sage Mode (Which requires Natural Energy by the way) in outer space on the Moon. This proves Kuruma's statements that Nature Energy exists throughout the Universe and a better word for it would be Cosmic Energy.
Orochimaru being the Final Villain of Part 3 has been pretty much confirmed :-
Quoting some old posts :-
One :-
If you didn't know, a Mini-series of Naruto i.e. Part 3 is going to be made which will focus on Boruto as the main Character.
Interestingly, Kishi has himself stated that Team Taka, Kabuto and Orochimaru are gonna return in Part 3 to resolve unsolved plotlines.
The Interview :-
Interview Reveals Orochimaru & Kabuto To Return In Naruto Part 3
10. After introducing next year's movie and the Naruto exhibition 2015, Kishimoto also revealed that Orochimaru, Kabuto, and other lesser characters would be re-appearing in the Boruto series, in order to finish the main plot. After that, Kishi says he will be taking time off in order to relax, as well as get together with his assistant to discuss details of his next series. It is unclear whether the new series will be based on ninjas or a totally new theme.
Here is what a certain member said about the Interview :-
When I read this: "After introducing next year's movie and the Naruto exhibition 2015, Kishimoto also revealed that Orochimaru, Kabuto, and other lesser characters would be re-appearing in the Boruto series, in order to finish the main plot."
So, this most likely proves that Orochimaru and Kabuto are still relevant in the "main" plot, which is STILL not over. I'm really excited.
Someone translated the Fourth Databook page of Orochimaru and the wording that Kishi has used is kinda weird to say none the less.
Here's the description :-
"An existence of an endless cycle of rebirth between the three worlds: past, present, and future, Quietly waiting for (what’s) ahead, the wind of catastrophic war…"
Here is the description of those lines given by a member :-
1)An existence of an endless cycle of rebirth between the three worlds: past, present, and future.
2) Quietly waiting for (what’s) ahead, the wind of catastrophic war…
1) It refers to Orochimaru's immortality, but the wording tells me that this transmigration (The whole sentence means Samasara :
You must be registered for see links
) of Orochimaru has being happening since the Beginning of time (Past + Present + Future) . As such, Orochimaru could predate Kaguya, Shinju and even the creation of NV, He could be the Void made human, The Void existed before the beginning of Creation.
2) You missed that line from the translation : It shows that a great war is gonna erupt in Part 3 which will determine the fate of the universe. This could perhaps reference Ragnorok : The Final battle of the Gods (Norse Mythology). The War does not refer to the Fourth Shinobi World War, It's a war that is yet to come. The wind (Reason for the war) I assume is Sasuke (His Revolution ?).
What Orochimaru could be :-
Shesha (IAST: Śeṣa, Devanagari: शेष), also known as Sheshanaga (IAST: Śeṣanāga, Devanagari: शेषनाग) or Adishesha (IAST: Ādi Śeṣa, Devanāgarī: आदिशेष) is the king of all Nāgas (serpent deities), one of the primal beings of creation, and according to the Bhagavata Purana, an avatar of the Supreme God[1] known as Narayana. It is said that when Adishesa uncoils, time moves forward and creation takes place. When he coils back, the universe ceases to exist.
.
