The big bang meets the big crunch

Which theory do you think is true?

  • Only the Big Bang

    Votes: 6 40.0%
  • The Big Bang and The Big Crunch

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • Both are poppycock

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Total voters
    15

hixa kuogame

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The super compressed atom didn't come from nowhere, it perhaps was created by an ever compressing universe that had its own big bang a very long time ago. Again, the process would be cyclic and each new Big Bang could very well contain only a part of the universe involved in the last cycle.

As for the original origin of the universe and its matter... we're talking about faith here, not science. Science can't explain how everything suddenly came into existence, just how its lifespan might have gone up until now.
You're saying that our universe came from another universe that compressed and released itself causing a Big Bang cyclically. So where does the original universe come from? When does the cycle start?
What are you putting your faith in? Your whole ideology is revolved around the Big Bang theory. But the theory itself doesn't make sense.
 

Pumpkin Ninja

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You're saying that our universe came from another universe that compressed and released itself causing a Big Bang cyclically. So where does the original universe come from? When does the cycle start?
What are you putting your faith in? Your whole ideology is revolved around the Big Bang theory. But the theory itself doesn't make sense.
The big bang theory is supported with more facts than you'd think though.
 

Floydical

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You're saying that our universe came from another universe that compressed and released itself causing a Big Bang cyclically. So where does the original universe come from? When does the cycle start?
What are you putting your faith in? Your whole ideology is revolved around the Big Bang theory. But the theory itself doesn't make sense.
You've repeatedly established that you understand the ideas behind the Big Bang and Big Crunch, yet you fail to see how they make sense. As I've already said, I don't know how the universe came to be originally, but that has nothing to do with these theories.

Truth is, you are focusing too much on the origin story. Just because I have no real belief as to the origin of the Universe, does not mean I can't believe is theories like these. You need to separate the two and think about them independently. If you understand how this process could be cyclic, then by definition the theory makes sense to you.

Understand where I'm coming from? If you understand the theory, then clearly it makes sense to you. These theories do not predict how the universe was made, only how it has progressed.
 

Dark Sonic

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wow! I've never considered it, what was outside the dense atom before the big bang? I know the answer most likely is nothing, but how did the nothing look, cos even emptiness is part of our known universe. The universe is expanding therefore at any instant there is this same nothingness just outside it's border.

OT: The universe decelerating is different from the universe accelerating in the opposite direction (therefore re-combining).
If this was true, then the world would probably never end.
 

Agent Phrank

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But it's a made up theory right? There's no solid evidence. I could come up with a story just as easily as to how the universe came to be. How is there a super compressed atom that just come from no where to create an entire universe?
"But it's a made up theory right?" To start off, please refrain from using the vernacular definition of "theory" when discussing science. It makes you look really uneducated and misinformed- note this is a heads-up for future discussions, don't get offended.

Generally, there are laws and theories.
Theories are proposed explanations for observed phenomena; they are derived from
observations and evidence.
They explain "WHY?"
Examples: Theory of Evolution explains that the similar but different patterns found in species of different environments is caused by adaptations.
Climate change theory explains that the rising sea water levels and carbon emissions is caused by greenhouse effects.

While laws seek to describe the relationship between phenomena.
They predict. They don't explain why or what causes it
Usually represented with an equation.
Examples: Thermodynamic and Entropy laws
Newton's law: equal amount of forces
E=mc^2

Plug in for variables, and now you can predict the outcome of an experiment
"How fast will this ball travel at x and y?"
"Will sound travel faster in x or y?"


You're saying that our universe came from another universe that compressed and released itself causing a Big Bang cyclically. So where does the original universe come from? When does the cycle start?
What are you putting your faith in? Your whole ideology is revolved around the Big Bang theory. But the theory itself doesn't make sense.
The theory that earth evolves around the sun is also just a theory right? What evidence do you have for that? Why do you agree with it?
Is climate change just a theory as well?
Even theory of relativity?



- - - -
For starters:
These are the four pillars of the Big Bang
1. The Expanding Universe:
galaxies appear to be moving away from us at speeds proportional to their distance. This is called "Hubble's Law," named after Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) who discovered this phenomenon in 1929. This observation supports the expansion of the universe and suggests that the universe was once compacted.

---- The fact that galaxies are receding from us in all directions is a consequence of this initial explosion and was first discovered observationally by Hubble. There is now excellent evidence for Hubble's law which states that the recessional velocity v of a galaxy is proportional to its distance d from us, that is, v=Hd where H is Hubble's constant. Projecting galaxy trajectories backwards in time means that they converge to a high density state - the initial fireball
-Redshift occurs when light seen coming from an object that is moving away is proportionally increased in wavelength, or shifted to the red end of the spectrum.

- Cosmological redshift is seen due to the expansion of the Universe, and sufficiently distant light sources (generally more than a few million light years away) show redshift corresponding to the rate of increase of their distance from Earth.
2.The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR)
if the universe was initially very, very hot as the Big Bang suggests, we should be able to find some remnant of this heat. In 1965, Radioastronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered a 2.725 degree Kelvin (-454.765 degree Fahrenheit, -270.425 degree Celsius) Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB) which pervades the observable universe. This is thought to be the remnant which scientists were looking for. Penzias and Wilson shared in the 1978 Nobel Prize for Physics for their discovery.
-Telstar satellites with microwave receivers measure noise interference from multiple sources at the SAME frequency.


3.Nucleosynthesis of the light elements (Abundance of helium and hydrogen):

The abundance of the "light elements" Hydrogen and Helium found in the observable universe are thought to support the Big Bang model of origins.

Prior to about one second after the Big Bang, matter - in the form of free neutrons and protons - was very hot and dense. As the Universe expanded, the temperature fell and some of these nucleons were synthesised into the light elements: deuterium (D), helium-3, and helium-4. Theoretical calculations for these nuclear processes predict, for example, that about a quarter of the Universe consists of helium-4, a result which is in good agreement with current stellar observations.

The heavier elements, of which we are partly made, were created later in the interiors of stars and spread widely in supernova explosions.
-The Big Bang predicts about 72% of the material out there is hydrogen, and 28% is helium. Astronomers have found that about 24% is helium and 76% is hydrogen.
This complies with this theory.
-Later, the heavier elements were created in stars and spread via supernovae and exist in vastly smaller amounts.

4. At about 10,000 years after the Big Bang, the temperature had fallen to such an extent that the energy density of the Universe began to be dominated by massive particles, rather than the light and other radiation which had predominated earlier. This change in the form of the main matter density meant that the gravitational forces between the massive particles could begin to take effects, so that any small perturbations in their density would grow. Ten billion years later we see the results of this collapse.
- This is the framework for the creation of galaxies.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I understand all of these replies & your point of view makes sense. But the simple fact is that I just have a hard time trusting mankind's interpretation on such a massive scale after realizing one of mankind's key flaws & trying hard (often slipping) to fix it in myself. I guess I don't have much room for optimism or trust anymore. Makes me feel old :-/
I'm glad I got my point across. Your pessimism isn't inherently wrong though; I do believe all speculations and theories should be scrutinized.

To end on a good note, it's evident that our endeavors have payed off within the last millenias. From the moment a caveman decided it was productive to use sharp metal alloys to overcome their first challenge- the big bad bears.

The advent of genetic therapy, vaccines, sterilization(especially this) all have facilitated healthier and more accessible living.
Average lifespans going up (medicine), world hunger going down (GMOs), declining death tolls (both from war and living), more renewable and efficient energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, etc energy). It's easy to get saturated and take all of this for granted.
 
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Transcendence

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Pretty much what I was going to say and that how do we know that it was an explosion created Earth?
Same reason how we know we weren't created by some God. Our entire genetic chemical composition is literally identical to the chemicals found present in stars. We're literally a by-product of a lucky chemical mutation made from the death of a star (or many stars that is).
 
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hixa kuogame

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"But it's a made up theory right?" To start off, please refrain from using the vernacular definition of "theory" when discussing science. It makes you look really uneducated and misinformed- note this is a heads-up for future discussions, don't get offended.

Generally, there are laws and theories.
Theories are proposed explanations for observed phenomena; they are derived from
They explain "WHY?"
Examples: Theory of Evolution explains that the similar but different patterns found in species of different environments is caused by adaptations.
Climate change theory explains that the rising sea water levels and carbon emissions is caused by greenhouse effects.

While laws seek to describe the relationship between phenomena.
They predict. They don't explain why or what causes it
Usually represented with an equation.
Examples: Thermodynamic and Entropy laws
Newton's law: equal amount of forces
E=mc^2

Plug in for variables, and now you can predict the outcome of an experiment
"How fast will this ball travel at x and y?"
"Will sound travel faster in x or y?"



The theory that earth evolves around the sun is also just a theory right? What evidence do you have for that? Why do you agree with it?
Is climate change just a theory as well?
Even theory of relativity?



- - - -
For starters:
These are the four pillars of the Big Bang


-Redshift occurs when light seen coming from an object that is moving away is proportionally increased in wavelength, or shifted to the red end of the spectrum.

- Cosmological redshift is seen due to the expansion of the Universe, and sufficiently distant light sources (generally more than a few million light years away) show redshift corresponding to the rate of increase of their distance from Earth.

-Telstar satellites with microwave receivers measure noise interference from multiple sources at the SAME frequency.




-The Big Bang predicts about 72% of the material out there is hydrogen, and 28% is helium. Astronomers have found that about 24% is helium and 76% is hydrogen.
This complies with this theory.
-Later, the heavier elements were created in stars and spread via supernovae and exist in vastly smaller amounts.


- This is the framework for the creation of galaxies.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



I'm glad I got my point across. Your pessimism isn't inherently wrong though; I do believe all speculations and theories should be scrutinized.

To end on a good note, it's evident that our endeavors have payed off within the last millenias. From the moment a caveman decided it was productive to use sharp metal alloys to overcome their first challenge- the big bad bears.

The advent of genetic therapy, vaccines, sterilization(especially this) all have facilitated healthier and more accessible living.
Average lifespans going up (medicine), world hunger going down (GMOs), declining death tolls (both from war and living), more renewable and efficient energy sources (nuclear, solar, wind, etc energy). It's easy to get saturated and take all of this for granted.
Calm down. I'm not trying to display some obsessive form of intelligence, so I'm not going to be specific with my use of the word "theory".
You haven't even answered my question yet. All this other information, but no explanation as to how this compressed atom that started the Big Bang came to be.
I just want to know where the compressed atom came from.
 

Tarinth

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Calm down. I'm not trying to display some obsessive form of intelligence, so I'm not going to be specific with my use of the word "theory".
You haven't even answered my question yet. All this other information, but no explanation as to how this compressed atom that started the Big Bang came to be.
I just want to know where the compressed atom came from.
His point was just that there is a lot of evidence that suggests that our universe did originate from a single atom and
may be part of a constant cycle which offers a lot of reason to believe in the notion. However, there is no way of
determining where it came to be. It's obvious that you know that no-one can explain where it originated as of now,
and possibly forever.

So due to that, I have to question why you keep asking, as I hypothesize, though it may be presumptuous of me,
that you are trying to say that it was all God, which leads to the whole "He's omnipotent so he just magically always
existed, you just can't understand it" lingo which is self-defeating. If you weren't trying to do that, and I simply misjudged,
then I apologize though it would appear to be the most likely reason to keep asking this.
 

hixa kuogame

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His point was just that there is a lot of evidence that suggests that our universe did originate from a single atom and
may be part of a constant cycle which offers a lot of reason to believe in the notion. However, there is no way of
determining where it came to be. It's obvious that you know that no-one can explain where it originated as of now,
and possibly forever.

So due to that, I have to question why you keep asking, as I hypothesize, though it may be presumptuous of me,
that you are trying to say that it was all God, which leads to the whole "He's omnipotent so he just magically always
existed, you just can't understand it" lingo which is self-defeating. If you weren't trying to do that, and I simply misjudged,
then I apologize though it would appear to be the most likely reason to keep asking this.
I genuinely wanted an answer. Anyone can tie loose tangents into evidence to support a theory. The idea comes off as pure conjecture. The universe is expanding based off of loose information with "scientific knowledge", so by that logic it can compress again the repeat the cycle continuously.
I hardly can call that evidence, therefore, I would like an answer as to where the compressed atom comes from. I've seem to have gotten everything but that. Excuse my informality.
 

Floydical

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Pretty much what I was going to say and that how do we know that it was an explosion created Earth?
It was an explosion that created the universe. The earth was formed a very long period of time after the Big Bang. Over millions of years, meteors and other celestial objects crash into one another and often merge from the enormous forces imparted. As the celestial objects grows in size due to these collisions, the amount of debris attracted to it increases. Once it reaches a certain size, the object will stabilize and compress to a perfect sphere. After that, growing in size from merging from celestial objects will largely halt, especially if the planet has formed an ozone.

I genuinely wanted an answer. Anyone can tie loose tangents into evidence to support a theory. The idea comes off as pure conjecture. The universe is expanding based off of loose information with "scientific knowledge", so by that logic it can compress again the repeat the cycle continuously.
I hardly can call that evidence, therefore, I would like an answer as to where the compressed atom comes from. I've seem to have gotten everything but that. Excuse my informality.
We simply don't have an answer of where the single atom came from because it is impossible to answer. People will say it came out of nowhere, being the size of an atom and all, but clearly you're right to assume it has some sort of origin. Again, we don't know, but the point of this thread is the cyclic theories of Big Bang and Big Crunch, not how the universe first came to be.
 

Funky Tiger

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But it's a made up theory right? There's no solid evidence. I could come up with a story just as easily as to how the universe came to be. How is there a super compressed atom that just come from no where to create an entire universe?
would you also call anyone of newton's theories on motion "made-up" because you dont have the time/interset to look up whether it has evidence or not? do you seriously believe that the most widely accepted scientific theory regarding such a fundamental question like "how was the universe created" would have no evidence/proof? the big bang theory (the topic this thread was meant to discuss) deals with how the universe expanded, and continues to expand. have you heard of the hubble telescope? well, the hubble telescope is named after a dude called edwin hubble, who after doing actual scientifically reliable experiments and having recorded observational evidence, concluded that there was a doppler shift in the stars light years away from us, which further proved that they were moving in a relative velocity away from us. and thus it was concluded that the universe itself is expanding continuously, and its safe to speculate that if it had been expanding continuously then it should have been a small minute atom at one point of time.

while no one can claim that the big bang theory is 100% right and that the question is anwsered, it is safe to say that the theory does have enough proof to be believed in, at least for the time being.
 

hixa kuogame

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would you also call anyone of newton's theories on motion "made-up" because you dont have the time/interset to look up whether it has evidence or not? do you seriously believe that the most widely accepted scientific theory regarding such a fundamental question like "how was the universe created" would have no evidence/proof? the big bang theory (the topic this thread was meant to discuss) deals with how the universe expanded, and continues to expand. have you heard of the hubble telescope? well, the hubble telescope is named after a dude called edwin hubble, who after doing actual scientifically reliable experiments and having recorded observational evidence, concluded that there was a doppler shift in the stars light years away from us, which further proved that they were moving in a relative velocity away from us. and thus it was concluded that the universe itself is expanding continuously, and its safe to speculate that if it had been expanding continuously then it should have been a small minute atom at one point of time.

while no one can claim that the big bang theory is 100% right and that the question is anwsered, it is safe to say that the theory does have enough proof to be believed in, at least for the time being.
Mmmkkayyy ✨
 

Floydical

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would you also call anyone of newton's theories on motion "made-up" because you dont have the time/interset to look up whether it has evidence or not? do you seriously believe that the most widely accepted scientific theory regarding such a fundamental question like "how was the universe created" would have no evidence/proof? the big bang theory (the topic this thread was meant to discuss) deals with how the universe expanded, and continues to expand. have you heard of the hubble telescope? well, the hubble telescope is named after a dude called edwin hubble, who after doing actual scientifically reliable experiments and having recorded observational evidence, concluded that there was a doppler shift in the stars light years away from us, which further proved that they were moving in a relative velocity away from us. and thus it was concluded that the universe itself is expanding continuously, and its safe to speculate that if it had been expanding continuously then it should have been a small minute atom at one point of time.

while no one can claim that the big bang theory is 100% right and that the question is anwsered, it is safe to say that the theory does have enough proof to be believed in, at least for the time being.
Exactly. To expand on this, the thread focuses on the possibility of a cyclic nature to our universe. While things are continuously expanding, its possible that previous iterations of the big bang/ big crunch cycle occurred in the universe's past. Its also possible that at some point in the universe's expansion, something will stop or even reverse the expansion, perhaps causing a new Big Crunch.

Now its also possible that the universe will expand forever and not stop, but the point was this cyclic nature could have been occurring over and over up till now, where the cycle might just now be broken.
 
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