Considering Lee travelled faster than Madara's faster-than-Kamui Gudo Dama I'm willing to bet he ranks high on the non-God speed tier. Genjutsu shouldn't be a factor since Lee's constantly in pain while in gates, Amaterasu shouldn't be a factor since Bee in Bijuu Mode reacted to it by raising his tentacle, something Lee can easily do with Asa Kujaku. He should be able to blast away Amaterasu with Morning Peacock especially since his striking speed reaches the speed of sound. When IC Sasuke doesn't summon large snakes if his opponent is mainly CQC-oriented.
@Touken..It's literally impossible for Lee to react to Amaterasu with Asakujaku. Very impossible especially when it takes V2 to react to it with his image showing slightly after he dodges it emphasizing on the Jutsu's speed in the bottom left panel
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. Only top leveled speedster have been shown to react to it such as V2 Ay and Juubi Jin. The likes of 6G Lee don't stand a chance when we talk about dodging Amaterasu.
Traveling faster than the Gudodama is a good feat without a doubt seeing as it took double the speed of Kamui to have one evade it but that particular feat is equivalent to Lee dodging a thrown Kunai from Kakashi as shown in the middle panel
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...Enough to suggest Sasuke wouldn't be able to react to and track him with his MS in order to act? No I don't think so when there are feats suggesting Sasuke has what it takes to track Lee..Lee is superior in the art but Sasuke has ways to force Lee from it such as Nagashi which would stun Lee. Such as Giant Snakes which would occupy Lee. IC Sasuke is also wise as well and would definitely use tactics to prevent a CQC when he knows he's much more inferior to the opponent.
that Kisame could absorb chakra at the beginning of the fight so there is no way he'd know anything about his chakra absorption or it's range. B switched to V1 after failing in Base because he didn't have the power to get past Kisame's guard, Manga makes that pretty clear. So your point about him switching to V1 despite knowing Kisame can absorb chakra doesn't hold.
-The guy is surprised that the Vibrato Blade didn't pierce Kisame when it stabbed him, so was Killer B. He's also surprised that Samehada wasn't pierced by the Vibrato Blade. That's power related, not speed related. So B not using the seven swords dance doesn't prove your point, because if a single blade can't pierce Kisame or his blade, what good will the 7 swords dance do? None. Then you have to take into account that Kisame's blade is better suited as a guard than Sasuke's blade. He didn't even outmaneuver Base B, all he did was block his attack while repelling the guy with the cleaver.
Okay, and if you put two and two together, one would conclude that not everything that get's near Kisame is automatically absorbed. In other words, he should of known it is possible to bypass Kisames absorption. My point does hold. Bee went V1 because he didn't have the power to get past Kisame's guard...? Is Bee's lack of power the reason why the raiton pencil almost drilled a hole through Kisames head, if he didn't avoid it...? Obviously not. If Bee had the sufficient amount of speed, he would of been able to maneuver around Kisame's defenses. A blade being thrown doesn't equal the penetrative force it would normally carry when being backed up by the strength of someone actually thrusting it themselves. And you can't tell me that Bee lacks the physical power/strength to drive his sword into Kisame. It was his lack of speed that disabled him from getting around Samehada, before getting outmaneuverd by Kisame's body speed.
@ bold... Look at the scans. Kisame was facing the ponytail dude, while a raiton blade was coming at his side, while Bee was coming at his back side. The raiton blade was inches away from his face, and Bee was drawn in mid-lunge, which only implies he was about to stab Kisame as well. Yet Kisame moved so fast and precisely that he repelled the dude away, positioned his body so that when the raiton sword was absorbed, it only hit his shoulder, rather then his neck or face; and simultaneously located Bee's shunshin lunge from his back side to accurately block it with Samehada. How is this not an outmanuever on Kisames part when it was all done within point blank range.
3 attacks came at Kisame, yeah, but that can't be used as a plus 1 for him since he was stabbed by one Vibrato Blade, meaning his feat is simply blocking B's charge and the cleaver guy's attack. Which isn't a feat that compares to Sasuke evading V1 B's Shunshin. And when I said that he wasn't using Shunshin against Kisame, I was talking about when he tried to stab him in V1. I agree that Shunshin was used when B first charged him in Base, but V1 B>>Base B in speed.
It wasn't a simple feat, as I just explained above. Okay, so what is your basis behind claiming that V1 Bee never shunshin' against Kisame, but did against Sasuke. Because I'm pretty sure that V1 Bee's running speed, isn't faster then Base Bee's shunshin. Doesn't make much sense to me to state otherwise.
But is that why Kisame was winning the entire match? No, obviously not.
-Sword dodges. [
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]
-Kisame swings his blade, but B evades. However due to Samehada's ability to absorb chakra, Killer B's cloak loses 6 of it's tails. [
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] In fact I'm not sure why you cite this scan as evidence of Kisame outmaneuvering B when this scan shows nothing but Killer B evading Kisame's attack. Had Kisame not been able to absorb chakra, B would've gotten out of that encounter unscathed. The only form of dodging shown by Kisame in this fight when it comes to cloaked B is when B tried to stab him. How are you even claiming that Kisame looked more impressive than Sasuke against B when
It obviously had a whole lot to do with it. Otherwise, Bee would simply be manuevering around Kisame and Samehada and impailing him with the blades. Absorption doesn't play a part in that.
Red box displays how Kisame was easily able to change his body position while Bee was lunging forward.
Yellow circle displays how Bee was like an inch away from impailing Kisame
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And with an inch of space between Bee's blade and Kisames body, Kisame was still able to outmaneuver him - by swiping upwards before getting hit. Bee didn't evade it... Kisame disrupted the lunge before it drew contact by picking Bee off the ground with that upward swipe. Yes, Samehada was huge and was hard to get around; but had Bee of been fast enough, he would of impailed Kisame threw the heart with that lunge while getting his chakra absorbed, which obviously didn't work out that way. So Kisame outmaneuverd Bee once again.
Why would V2 B and V2 Jins get an equal boost in power when V2 B has more power under his belt due to having 8 tails in V2 mode?
And that particular attack? No. Not really.
-Hiruzen was able to react to Obito's Gudo Dama attack.
-Naruto was able to stretch his chakra arm, grab Minato and Minato was able to warp before Obito could stab Naruto and Sasuke point blank with the Gudo Dama.
And how does Lee dodging it mean that Lee outsped it?
But there's no way to tell if that's because of inexperience. Though it's pretty clear to me that Kishimoto made an emphasis on the usage of their jutsu because it was the first time they used said jutsu in the entire Manga. Strain is always going to be apart of MS jutsu no matter how experienced you are, and the time it took for Kakashi was already explained.
And Amaterasu hit Hachibi's tentacle because Hachibi was able to move it in the way before Amaterasu could spawn.
There absolutely is, but you're just dancing around my points. The first time we saw the entire process of Amaterasu being used was when Itachi did it against Sasuke, and there wasn't any delay. In that instance, and in every other instance of Amaterasu being used, the flames spawn immediately (or the very next panel) after the emphasis on the eye strain. It wasn't the first time we saw Amaterasu, so that isn't a valid excuse. It took over 3 panels time for the flames to finally appear after Sasuke's eye strain took place. It all especially makes sense because Sasuke just unlocked his MS. Way more evidence is suggesting that Sasuke was inexperienced with Amaterasu at this point in time.
That supports my point. Sasuke's Amaterasu eye strain-->A panel of the Hachibi-->Another panel of the Hachibi-->Yet another panel of the Hachibi who was about to block his face-->Amaterasu finally spawns, but it blocked by the Hachibi's tenticle. Clearly, Sasuke is inexperienced with it.
Depends on the location, but I don't recall movement in Gates creating enough debris to cause Sasuke to lose focus. When Gai attacked Madara all we saw were small gashes in the ground where he moved. So I doubt 6G Lee is going to be able to do something that'd hinder Sasuke's vision.
In both cases that a gate user was in motion (Lee Vs Gaara, and Gai Vs JJ Madara) debris were flying everywhere, and people had to shield their faces and squint their eyes.
Yeah, a stray fireball that latched onto her body after Amaterasu had been used on Hachibi, who was the main target and was the one rolling on the floor in Pain. Lee isn't going to fair any better than a Bijuu. He fights through all that in Gates because opening the Gates gives him energy, and besides, the damage Amaterasu will do with a direct hit to the frontal is going to be worse than his muscles tearing.
And like I said, Sasuke can continue to create the flame if he tries to blow it away, which would also increase the amount of damage he takes and the rate he takes it at.
The gates giving him energy doesn't change the fact that the gates is putting immense strain on the entire body, which the user can still feel and have to overcome. Lee's muscle completely snapped, but he was still able to force through the pain and nail Gaara. Just like 8G Gai wasn't used to the pain with EE, which forced him to stop using it the first time around.
I highly doubt Amaterasu will even be a factor here, when the Hachibi had more then enough time to shield his face after Sasuke was able to comfortably use Amaterasu. Lee would be pressuring Sasuke in CQC way too much for him to focus (in addition to the debris), and his movements is obviously faster then the Hachibi.
How does Sasuke fair against 6G running up on him, and using a point blank Morning Peacock? He doesn't.
Okay, and if you put two and two together, one would conclude that not everything that get's near Kisame is automatically absorbed. In other words, he should of known it is possible to bypass Kisames absorption. My point does hold. Bee went V1 because he didn't have the power to get past Kisame's guard...? Is Bee's lack of power the reason why the raiton pencil almost drilled a hole through Kisames head, if he didn't avoid it...? Obviously not. If Bee had the sufficient amount of speed, he would of been able to maneuver around Kisame's defenses. A blade being thrown doesn't equal the penetrative force it would normally carry when being backed up by the strength of someone actually thrusting it themselves. And you can't tell me that Bee lacks the physical power/strength to drive his sword into Kisame. It was his lack of speed that disabled him from getting around Samehada, before getting outmaneuverd by Kisame's body speed.
No, he shouldn't. Because he outright showed that he didn't know.
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"What did you do to my chakras?"
So your point doesn't hold. As for the rest, B not having the speed to maneuver around Kisame's defenses doesn't mean that Kisame outmaneuvered him. It means that Kisame has the speed to react to B's attack and block it, which is besides the point. Kisame didn't outmaneuver Killer B. The phrase "lacked the speed to get around Samehada" doesn't even make sense.
1. The only way to "get around" when B's a linear attack is to go fast enough to blitz the opposition completely. And unless you are saying "being unable to blitz means that your downfall was due to a lack of speed only", this doesn't hold as a point.
2. B most likely knew he was nowhere near fast enough to blitz him with no reaction based on his reaction to that pencil, so he expected to go through his blade and pierce him with Raiton. So no, your point doesn't hold in any way, shape or form. This was clearly not a speed issue. Clearly.
@ bold... Look at the scans. Kisame was facing the ponytail dude, while a raiton blade was coming at his side, while Bee was coming at his back side. The raiton blade was inches away from his face, and Bee was drawn in mid-lunge, which only implies he was about to stab Kisame as well. Yet Kisame moved so fast and precisely that he repelled the dude away, positioned his body so that when the raiton sword was absorbed, it only hit his shoulder, rather then his neck or face; and simultaneously located Bee's shunshin lunge from his back side to accurately block it with Samehada. How is this not an outmanuever on Kisames part when it was all done within point blank range.
Because all he did was react and block him. That's not outmaneuvering because he didn't do anything offensive in that clash but slash at him. All these chain of events show is that Kisame is fast enough to easily react to Base B's speed.
It wasn't a simple feat, as I just explained above. Okay, so what is your basis behind claiming that V1 Bee never shunshin' against Kisame, but did against Sasuke. Because I'm pretty sure that V1 Bee's running speed, isn't faster then Base Bee's shunshin. Doesn't make much sense to me to state otherwise.
The design showing B's motion is more blurred above, thus indicating greater speed. That also correlates with other Shunshin uses in the Manga. Blurs. All B did was lunge at Kisame. No, V1 B's running speed isn't faster than Base B's Shunshin, but why would that even be a question we need to consider here?
It obviously had a whole lot to do with it. Otherwise, Bee would simply be manuevering around Kisame and Samehada and impailing him with the blades. Absorption doesn't play a part in that.
Wrong again. B isn't even that kind of fighter so why would he be trying to do that? Your argument basically boils down to "The whole reason B was losing is because he was too slow to blitz with no reaction" because as long as Kisame can react to B, he will absorb his chakra without fail. You said that he was outdoing B with his bodily speed, but that's false. All he did was react. Not outdo.
-1st instance: B charges in Base trying to pierce through Samehada with Raiton Blades not knowing Kisame can absorb chakra.
-Realized that Kisame can absorb chakra, so increases the amount of power and chakra he uses.
-Fails again, so increases it even more in an attempt to plow through Kisame, which worked. That's absorption screwing him up.
Killer B is a linear fighter, so why would he be trying to dance around Samehada when it already has a large absorption range and he knows he's not fast enough to blitz him with no reaction?
Red box displays how Kisame was easily able to change his body position while Bee was lunging forward.
Yellow circle displays how Bee was like an inch away from impailing Kisame
What? How is this supposed to be a feat worth mentioning? He moved right when B attacked just like Samehada. The lunge is a feat, but a reaction feat. Not an outmaneuver.
And with an inch of space between Bee's blade and Kisames body, Kisame was still able to outmaneuver him - by swiping upwards before getting hit. Bee didn't evade it... Kisame disrupted the lunge before it drew contact by picking Bee off the ground with that upward swipe. Yes, Samehada was huge and was hard to get around; but had Bee of been fast enough, he would of impailed Kisame threw the heart with that lunge while getting his chakra absorbed, which obviously didn't work out that way. So Kisame outmaneuverd Bee once again.
Bruh, no. Kisame did react, comfortably. But B evaded it. Not even sure what you are getting at with the bold.
-B charges.
-Samehada dodges.
-Kisame swings his blade up in an attempt to cut B.
-B hops backwards and completely evades the attack, but the absorption range screws him over and he loses 6 tails.
Kisame didn't stop his attack from making contact. If B was fast enough, he would've been able to stab Kisame with no reaction, yes. But does that mean Kisame outmaneuvered him? No. It means that Kisame was fast enough to react, but when it came time for Kisame to actually attack B, he failed, hard considering B evaded his attack. Only reason B was affected is because Samehada can absorb chakra.
I never said equal, I said why would there be a huge gap inbetween their speed.
And okay, I'll drop that point. Again, I know close to nothing about those tier characters.
There absolutely is, but you're just dancing around my points. The first time we saw the entire process of Amaterasu being used was when Itachi did it against Sasuke, and there wasn't any delay. In that instance, and in every other instance of Amaterasu being used, the flames spawn immediately (or the very next panel) after the emphasis on the eye strain. It wasn't the first time we saw Amaterasu, so that isn't a valid excuse. It took over 3 panels time for the flames to finally appear after Sasuke's eye strain took place. It all especially makes sense because Sasuke just unlocked his MS. Way more evidence is suggesting that Sasuke was inexperienced with Amaterasu at this point in time.
You don't have a point. You are assuming that Kishi emphasizing on the MS on it's debut is Kishi showing his inexperience with said jutsu when in reality there literally is no correlation between the two.
Whether or not it was the first time seeing the jutsu is obviously irrelevant as it's Sasuke's first time using the jutsu. Emphasis is always, or most of the time, put on an important characters first usage of a new jutsu regardless of the jutsu being seen before or not.
-Naruto's Rasengan.
-Konohamaru's Rasengan.
And I could go on.
That supports my point. Sasuke's Amaterasu eye strain-->A panel of the Hachibi-->Another panel of the Hachibi-->Yet another panel of the Hachibi who was about to block his face-->Amaterasu finally spawns, but it blocked by the Hachibi's tenticle. Clearly, Sasuke is inexperienced with it.
What you are saying doesn't even make sense. Spawn time has nothing to do with experience as spawn time is the same for all uses of Amaterasu. Panel time=/=Actual time elapsed. Someone inexperienced with Amaterasu doesn't use it and then cancel it moments later.
Is he inexperienced? Yes. But does that affect the jutsu's performance? No. It doesn't. Especially since he was putting out the flames with ease (apart from strain) a few seconds later.
In both cases that a gate user was in motion (Lee Vs Gaara, and Gai Vs JJ Madara) debris were flying everywhere, and people had to shield their faces and squint their eyes.
That is what happened when Gai fought Madara. The opening of the gates caused them to briefly shield their eyes and they were able to clearly see the rest. Minato is shown looking on as normal. And that debris flying around is nothing. Tiny fragments of rocks while all the big fragments are far below eye level.
The gates giving him energy doesn't change the fact that the gates is putting immense strain on the entire body, which the user can still feel and have to overcome. Lee's muscle completely snapped, but he was still able to force through the pain and nail Gaara. Just like 8G Gai wasn't used to the pain with EE, which forced him to stop using it the first time around.
Which is still nothing compared to having your entire frontal being turned into a pile of goop by a flame that had a Bijuu rolling on the floor screaming and wailing like a little child. Whether Lee can fight through the pain or not isn't relevant when his body is too damaged to actually do anything.
I highly doubt Amaterasu will even be a factor here, when the Hachibi had more then enough time to shield his face after Sasuke was able to comfortably use Amaterasu. Lee would be pressuring Sasuke in CQC way too much for him to focus (in addition to the debris), and his movements is obviously faster then the Hachibi.
Why are you using Killer B's reaction feats as evidence that Rock Lee will react when Rock Lee's reaction feats pale in comparison to Killer B'S? Tbh that isn't even the problem here. Killer B being able to raise his hand in front of his face equates to Lee being able to stop Amaterasu how again? :lol. He moves faster than B, but will he move fast enough to cross whatever distance is between them and take out Sasuke before he can use Amaterasu? No.
-Debris? Nothing.
-Pressure in CQC? Unless this pressure stops Sasuke from looking at Lee, I'm going to go ahead and say that rushing him does nothing but get him killed.
How does Sasuke fair against 6G running up on him, and using a point blank Morning Peacock? He doesn't.
@Touken..It's literally impossible for Lee to react to Amaterasu with Asakujaku. Very impossible especially when it takes V2 to react to it with his image showing slightly after he dodges it emphasizing on the Jutsu's speed in the bottom left panel
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. Only top leveled speedster have been shown to react to it such as V2 Ay and Juubi Jin. The likes of 6G Lee don't stand a chance when we talk about dodging Amaterasu.
V2 Ay dodging it doesn't mean it requires V2 to be the bare minimum to dodge Amaterasu. In the manga when you're talking about 'barely' dodging something then it's usually accompanied by exclamation marks etc. Ay showed no surprise when Sasuke used Amaterasu, and Bee definitely reacted to Amaterasu by raising his tentacle and he's nowhere near Ay's speed. Lee doesn't have to dodge Amaterasu, simply using Asa Kujaku to put up a barrage of flames back against Amaterasu should be enough.
Traveling faster than the Gudodama is a good feat without a doubt seeing as it took double the speed of Kamui to have one evade it but that particular feat is equivalent to Lee dodging a thrown Kunai from Kakashi as shown in the middle panel
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...Enough to suggest Sasuke wouldn't be able to react to and track him with his MS in order to act? No I don't think so when there are feats suggesting Sasuke has what it takes to track Lee..Lee is superior in the art but Sasuke has ways to force Lee from it such as Nagashi which would stun Lee. Such as Giant Snakes which would occupy Lee. IC Sasuke is also wise as well and would definitely use tactics to prevent a CQC when he knows he's much more inferior to the opponent.
Fair enough, the speed of Kamui and the speed of those Gudodama have always been inconsistent, but Lee's no slouch when it comes to speed, and even with MS I see Taka Sasuke having difficulties to reacting to Lee's taijutsu considering his taijutsu isn't just one attack; it's always a string of high speed attacks, and he was getting shat on by Bee in high speed CQC. Eh, I don't see Sasuke using Nagashi in high speed combat, especially since he didn't use it against Bee. Taka Sasuke only has manga intel so for all he knows he's a much more talented fighter in CQC.
As Gai's kick was incoming, he was able to mentally react and his sword was coming down at the same time. The only thing is that Gai was too fast for him to block.
No he didn't, Kisame swong first and Wasn't fast enough to out speed Gais then kick. If Gai Kicked first and kisame was able to move then you would have a point. But it was the opposite So Kisame never ever ever reacted to 6 gate.
V2 Ay dodging it doesn't mean it requires V2 to be the bare minimum to dodge Amaterasu. In the manga when you're talking about 'barely' dodging something then it's usually accompanied by exclamation marks etc. Ay showed no surprise when Sasuke used Amaterasu, and Bee definitely reacted to Amaterasu by raising his tentacle and he's nowhere near Ay's speed. Lee doesn't have to dodge Amaterasu, simply using Asa Kujaku to put up a barrage of flames back against Amaterasu should be enough.
I know but what I'm saying is you can see how close it was to hitting him:
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Not much reasons to believe Lee has what it takes to react to it in my opinions. Plus B raised his tentacles before it even came out and not as a reaction to it (Bottom)
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and have in mind B had no intel on this Jutsu so it would make more sense to say he didn't react to it but acted before it was released as a form of defense due to not knowing what was coming before the release. He obviously cannot react to it given how the Manga emphasized on this. Ay going V2 when the MS comes up is a heavy indication that it's needed for Ay to dodge that and we very well know it doesn't make sense for Hachibi to be on par with V2 in terms of reaction speed. Think of how Nagato used ST on B's sword before Itachi could even release Amaterasu despite him sensing it time before. Think of how Nagato could respond to Itachi before Amaterasu was eventually released on him despite it being released already in the middle
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. Amaterasu just wan't released fast enough but there are several scenarios showing it can depending on the user
Basically Hachibi brought out his tentacles to defend himself beforehand considering he had no idea on the Jutsu. Sasuke was in a bad state beforehand and just finished battling B as well. Not to mention why didn't Ay react before Amaterasu came out? He acted after it was released so Hachibi's case was just to defend himself from an incoming attack he had no idea of.
So I don't see Lee reacting with Asakujaku. Especially when he doesn't have the feats suggesting he can against a fresh Sasuke who already showed control of Amaterasu already as seen with Karin. Besides Asakujaku requires a stance first and I don't believe Lee is more experienced on Gai's level and he can't anticipate Amaterasu and then react with punches before it lights him up..Highly doubt that.
Fair enough, the speed of Kamui and the speed of those Gudodama have always been inconsistent, but Lee's no slouch when it comes to speed, and even with MS I see Taka Sasuke having difficulties to reacting to Lee's taijutsu considering his taijutsu isn't just one attack; it's always a string of high speed attacks, and he was getting shat on by Bee in high speed CQC. Eh, I don't see Sasuke using Nagashi in high speed combat, especially since he didn't use it against Bee. Taka Sasuke only has manga intel so for all he knows he's a much more talented fighter in CQC.
In a CQC no doubt considering Lee's speed. However Sasuke can anticipate him via the MS and then act before he covers up. Like I said he has snake which should be factored considering his inferiority in a CQC already. That can play a role as Lee can be distracted.
Nagashi won't be used in the presence of a CQC fight against such a fighter for sure but Sasuke can prepare it before Lee engages him from a reasonable distance. From a credible distance and considering Sasuke can react and anticipate him, he can pull it out especially given how he can react to Lee. When Lee comes close, he just releases it
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. Sasuke already showed he can react to V1 B so Lee won't be a problem. Also the reason why Sasuke didn't use Nagashi against B was because Raiton user can defuse Raiton
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. It was pretty useless against him but it won't here and Sasuke juts needs to play smart and release it at the right time.
I know but what I'm saying is you can see how close it was to hitting him:
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Not much reasons to believe Lee has what it takes to react to it in my opinions. Plus B raised his tentacles before it even came out and not as a reaction to it (Bottom)
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and have in mind B had no intel on this Jutsu so it would make more sense to say he didn't react to it but acted before it was released as a form of defense due to not knowing what was coming before the release. He obviously cannot react to it given how the Manga emphasized on this. Ay going V2 when the MS comes up is a heavy indication that it's needed for Ay to dodge that and we very well know it doesn't make sense for Hachibi to be on par with V2 in terms of reaction speed. Think of how Nagato used ST on B's sword before Itachi could even release Amaterasu despite him sensing it time before. Think of how Nagato could respond to Itachi before Amaterasu was eventually released on him despite it being released already in the middle
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. Amaterasu just wan't released fast enough but there are several scenarios showing it can depending on the user
But of course. Amaterasu only spawns a fraction of a second before it actually hits the user. You say that Bee didn't react to it because he had no intel on Amaterasu, but that makes absolutely no sense. Why would he involuntary raise his tentacle if he had no intel on the technique? If anything, the fact that he had no intel on it further adds credit to the fact that Bee actually reacted to Amaterasu because he couldn't have possibly known Sasuke could/would use it, and we don't know if it is possible to sense certain techniques. For all we know, Nagato sensed a build up of chakra in Itachi's eye and assumed it would be Amaterasu considering it was one of Itachi's most destructive techniques. From my interpretation Itachi always had the intention to use Kotoamatsukami, he didn't intend to use Amaterasu first and then use KA.
Basically Hachibi brought out his tentacles to defend himself beforehand considering he had no idea on the Jutsu. Sasuke was in a bad state beforehand and just finished battling B as well. Not to mention why didn't Ay react before Amaterasu came out? He acted after it was released so Hachibi's case was just to defend himself from an incoming attack he had no idea of.
Again, that doesn't make sense. You don't just put up your tentacle if you have no idea what Sasuke was about to do. In fact, from Bee's point of view, he had Taka beat. They were all exhausted. Amaterasu isn't instant which is why Ay didn't have to move before Amaterasu came out as I put earlier; Amaterasu spawns just before it latches upon its target.
So I don't see Lee reacting with Asakujaku. Especially when he doesn't have the feats suggesting he can against a fresh Sasuke who already showed control of Amaterasu already as seen with Karin. Besides Asakujaku requires a stance first and I don't believe Lee is more experienced on Gai's level and he can't anticipate Amaterasu and then react with punches before it lights him up..Highly doubt that.
Since I'm still convinced Bee in Bijuu form reacted to Amaterasu I do believe Lee can counter it. You don't have to be on Gai's level to know that if you're not going to counter, you're going to die. Lee still has full intel in this scenario, and no, it doesn't require a stance beforehand to use Asa Kujaku. All Morning Peacock is, is a barrage of super-sonic punches. It's not like Hirudora where you need a specific hand sign to release all the built up pressure. The fact that Gai used a stance against Kisame doesn't mean it's a necessity, and he's already shown against Saiken that no stance is needed.
In a CQC no doubt considering Lee's speed. However Sasuke can anticipate him via the MS and then act before he covers up. Like I said he has snake which should be factored considering his inferiority in a CQC already. That can play a role as Lee can be distracted.
What is this snake? If it's a giant snake that far surpasses Lee in size then that's not a viable strategy since IC Sasuke has never used a giant snake in a battle against a CQC-oriented fighter.
Nagashi won't be used in the presence of a CQC fight against such a fighter for sure but Sasuke can prepare it before Lee engages him from a reasonable distance. From a credible distance and considering Sasuke can react and anticipate him, he can pull it out especially given how he can react to Lee. When Lee comes close, he just releases it
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. Sasuke already showed he can react to V1 B so Lee won't be a problem. Also the reason why Sasuke didn't use Nagashi against B was because Raiton user can defuse Raiton
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. It was pretty useless against him but it won't here and Sasuke juts needs to play smart and release it at the right time.
Lee has full intel. If Sasuke tries to do that then Lee uses a series of feints to expose Nagashi and then attack when he's open, but again, if Lee had no intel of Nagashi anyway, I don't see IC Sasuke ever using such a method. He didn't use it against Itachi in CQC and he didn't use it against Bee (prior to knowing Bee's a Raiton user) so I'm sticking to believing that Sasuke wouldn't use it in high speed taijutsu considering the only time he has used it was when his opponents were pretty much stationary. He didn't know Bee was a Ration user
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so why didn't he just use Nagashi to end the fight there and then? Sasuke reacted to a straight punch by V1 Bee, it's a different story when you're using high-speed taijutsu for a string of attacks, and even more so when your opponent is capable of punching so fast that it produces flames.
Like everyone else pointed out earlier...Sasuke isn't having a difficult time reacting to Lee considering he dodged V1 Bee in middle of the air (something only Ei was capable before this time) and V1 Ei should be as fast as 6-Gate Lee.
Like everyone else pointed out earlier...Sasuke isn't having a difficult time reacting to Lee considering he dodged V1 Bee in middle of the air (something only Ei was capable before this time) and V1 Ei should be as fast as 6-Gate Lee.
That isn't comparable. Instead of simply linearly charging at the opponent like Bee does, Rock Lee can use
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with his incredible speed. Not only that, DB4 states he has achieved taijutsu master level. So handling him in CQC is a whole different story then Bee's linear charges.
I'll reply to KG's post when I have the appropriate amount of time.
That isn't comparable. Instead of simply linearly charging at the opponent like Bee does, Rock Lee can use
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with his incredible speed. Not only that, DB4 states he has achieved taijutsu master level. So handling him in CQC is a whole different story then Bee's linear charges.
But of course. Amaterasu only spawns a fraction of a second before it actually hits the user. You say that Bee didn't react to it because he had no intel on Amaterasu, but that makes absolutely no sense. Why would he involuntary raise his tentacle if he had no intel on the technique? If anything, the fact that he had no intel on it further adds credit to the fact that Bee actually reacted to Amaterasu because he couldn't have possibly known Sasuke could/would use it, and we don't know if it is possible to sense certain techniques. For all we know, Nagato sensed a build up of chakra in Itachi's eye and assumed it would be Amaterasu considering it was one of Itachi's most destructive techniques. From my interpretation Itachi always had the intention to use Kotoamatsukami, he didn't intend to use Amaterasu first and then use KA.
No you don't get what I'm saying. Hachibi had no idea what was coming hence he opted to defend himself before anything occurred. However he was late. Hachibi's intention was to fully cover himself with his tentacles obviously in order to protect his main body. Middle panel shows what I am talking about
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. However Amaterasu was too fast for him to complete that. That was just a way to defend himself. I didn't say because B didn't know what was coming hence it's not a reaction. I mean B already acted before the attack was released. Not because he could react to the attack but because he took safety measures. Just like this example..In the process of Sasuke pulling his arrow back, Danzo is able to run and act (
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) but once released, Danzo can't move an inch (
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). Same case with Hachibi and Amaterasu. Seeing as Hachibi could act before Amaterasu was released which I already showed with Hachibi opting to defend himself before it was released on him due to not knowing what was coming
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That's an assumption that's wrong considering the fact that Itachi eyes started bleeding. It was clearly Amaterasu.
Again, that doesn't make sense. You don't just put up your tentacle if you have no idea what Sasuke was about to do. In fact, from Bee's point of view, he had Taka beat. They were all exhausted. Amaterasu isn't instant which is why Ay didn't have to move before Amaterasu came out as I put earlier; Amaterasu spawns just before it latches upon its target.
B had no idea who Sasuke was let alone knowing he could use Amaterasu..He questioned who they were
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. B only opted to defend himself because he didn't know what was coming. What even ridicules this is the fact that the guard in the middle panel did the same exact thing here
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. Now we're going to suggest everyone can react to Amaterasu because one raises his hand to defend an attack they have no idea? Clearly not.
Since I'm still convinced Bee in Bijuu form reacted to Amaterasu I do believe Lee can counter it. You don't have to be on Gai's level to know that if you're not going to counter, you're going to die. Lee still has full intel in this scenario, and no, it doesn't require a stance beforehand to use Asa Kujaku. All Morning Peacock is, is a barrage of super-sonic punches. It's not like Hirudora where you need a specific hand sign to release all the built up pressure. The fact that Gai used a stance against Kisame doesn't mean it's a necessity, and he's already shown against Saiken that no stance is needed.
Your reason for Lee being able to do so is based on the fact that Hachibi could? Which clearly is flawed seeing how the Bijuu already showed feats of reacting to attacks as fast as the Juubi's Bijudama in a laser form. Not to mention if Hachibi really pulled a feat worthy enough to put it on par with V2 Ay, then Lee definitely doesn't get the same. Especially when his experience doesn't suggest he can release it as fast as Gai let alone as a reaction. We know Asakujaku requires a posture as said in the bottom
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. Posture that gave Kisame enough time to strike before it was initiated. Why should I believe Lee would be reacting to Amaterasu of all Jutsus with Asakujaku? When he isn't Hachibi? No reason for me to believe he can do so. Lee reacting to Amaterasu with Asakujaku makes no sense. Don't say "Gai has shown it without the posture"..That's Gai's feat and not Lee's seeing as Lee recognized the move based on the posture shown.
Plus can the fire really overpower Amaterasu?
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Or can he release enough to hold it down? When Sasuke can just set his leg on fire to begin with as well.
What is this snake? If it's a giant snake that far surpasses Lee in size then that's not a viable strategy since IC Sasuke has never used a giant snake in a battle against a CQC-oriented fighter.
Doesn't matter whether he has never used. IC Sasuke is intelligent..Intelligent to know he can't encounter someone so skilled in this art so yes summonings would be viable.
Yes the Snake I'm talking about is durable to survive a mega blast here
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and this is it
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. Lee would have to take that down before moving on to Sasuke.
Lee has full intel. If Sasuke tries to do that then Lee uses a series of feints to expose Nagashi and then attack when he's open, but again, if Lee had no intel of Nagashi anyway, I don't see IC Sasuke ever using such a method. He didn't use it against Itachi in CQC and he didn't use it against Bee (prior to knowing Bee's a Raiton user) so I'm sticking to believing that Sasuke wouldn't use it in high speed taijutsu considering the only time he has used it was when his opponents were pretty much stationary. He didn't know Bee was a Ration user
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so why didn't he just use Nagashi to end the fight there and then? Sasuke reacted to a straight punch by V1 Bee, it's a different story when you're using high-speed taijutsu for a string of attacks, and even more so when your opponent is capable of punching so fast that it produces flames.
- Sasuke never even engaged Itachi in a CQC..That was a Genjutsu. Even then he still used it while in it as shown when he streamed it through the ground instead.
- He knew B was a Raiton user of course. Clearly shown with his headband that he was a cloud ninja from the land of lightning...Not to mention I'm not sure why he won't be given intel on his opponent given the fact that he was sent on a mission to capture him.
- How can you ask me why didn't he just use it there? I can use that logic in multiple scenarios. Why didn't he just use it to end the fight against Naruto at first chance despite planning to kill them later ? Not to mention he didn't use it =\= He can't use it. Not to mention it has been noted to us that it's utter useless against him. Besides his aim was to take B safely hence the safety measure of not wanting to kill him. So no, Kishi has zero reasons to show us Nagashi when it was already shown Raiton users can defuse Raiton. It was pointless..And your scan doesn't show he didn't know he was.
- Feints would work when the Jutsu surrounds Sasuke completely
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? Maybe but either way good point as I can see what you mean.
- Lee doesn't even strike as fast as Gai..Asakujaku was given to Lee based on the hype of the 6th Gate. Not that it's 100% confirmed that he can even use it:
Morning Peacock (朝孔雀, Asa Kujaku)
Taijutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Might Guy
Visiting unexpectedly from the depths of one's heart
Dancing in the sky are successive attacks of a wondrous bird!!
Utmost speed and utmost strength should be collected into one's own fist with all one's heart~~ The "Morning Peacock" is the certain-kill taijutsu born from this philosophy of Guy. The principle of this taijutsu is to rapidly increase the body's abilities by opening the "Eight Gates"¹ up to and including the sixth gate and then strike the enemy down with countless punches. With speed so high that the friction produces flames, the destructive power of the successive attacks doesn't even give the victim time to say his farewells. All enemies that faced this technique in the past were utterly destroyed! When Guy looks forward to certain victory, the flames from his fists paint the sky. As bright as the sunrise, as brilliant as a peacock's tail feathers!!
↓Surely only Guy could remain safe even after opening up to the sixth gate!!
[picture of Guy opening the sixth gate]
[picture of Guy hitting Kisame's copy]
←The technique is started by kicking up the enemy. For an ordinary person, this one shot would result in inevitable death.
For the person receiving the attack, nothing remains, but to get burned and die!!
¹ Eight Gates (八門, Hachimon). They are in order: the Opening Gate (開門, Kaimon), the Rest Gate (休門, Kyuumon), the Life Gate (生門, Seimon), the Wound Gate (傷門, Shoumon), the Limit Gate (杜門, Tomon), the Spectacle Gate (景門, Keimon), the Fright Gate (驚門, Kyoumon) and the Death Gate (死門, Shimon). Guy opens the first six.
Just like you've been asking me, Why didn't Lee show this if he could punch as fast?
- Sasuke reacted to V1 B regardless of his linear movements. It's the fact that he can react to such speed given B's statement here in the bottom
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- You're stating 2 things now...Lee cannot be running to Sasuke and be stationary while using Asakujaku as a reaction. Not possible...So given the fact Sasuke can track him, he just lights him up with Amaterasu when Lee tries coming at him...Not to mention he can hold it in and release at the right time like Itachi did in the Naruto situation as well.
- Snake occupies Lee ad while Lee tries to put it down, Sasuke can set him on fire. If he blows it off, Sasuke sets him on fire again and Lee isn't Gai who can hold the gates for long especially the 6th.
He didn't avoid it much more then Deidara did, considering that both recieved marks on their face and body [
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]. This isn't a comparable feat that warrants Sasuke being able to deal with 6G Lee in CQC anyways. It's the same scenario that occured back in part one. Just because Sasuke would be able to track Lee's movements with his sharingan, doesn't mean he'll be able to repeatedly react and effectively counter in CQC.
Sasuke wins high diff. Reacting to Lee's speed should not be a problem with MS. Karin noted that Sasuke's chakra in MS was stronger than his chakra in CM2. Sasuke said it was easy to react to v1 Bee's speed as well, and he casually reacted to Mifune's striking speed like it was nothing. Obviously Lee has greater striking speed, but nothing overwhelming for Sasuke, especially since he has Chidori Nagashi and Genjutsu. It's not like Lee can fight looking at his opponent's feet like Gai can, so that's a pretty massive obstacle he'll need to overcome given any form of Genjutsu one shots him. His Genjutsu Kai is probably Genin-Chunnin, nothing in front of MS; especially when MS Sasuke's 3T can make elite Jonin Genjutsu users like Cee faint.
Not sure why people are suggesting Asa Kujaku is problematic either, I don't see why snake summons like these [
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] don't deal with it when they already tanked a massive C1 bird exploding
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. The snake only had some of its skin burned, its flesh was completely unaffected and it didn't seem to be in any apparent pain at all. Here it'll just be set ablaze, no explosion at all, so Sasuke will be totally fine as the heat is definitely not melting through the entire snake. He de-summons it and all the flames go with it. For Sasuke's offensive lets just go with one-shotting Amaterasu which Lee has no counters for.
