Taka Sasuke vs Lee
- Thread starter Kagustuchi
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Forbidden Technique
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Samehada didn't stop the momentum of V2 Bee slamming into it though. Most of the energy of motion went from Samehada and into Kisame. I can use other examples on why Kisame is more durable then Sasuke, it shouldn't be controversial.
If speed wasn't the issue, then Bee would of reverted back to base rather then simply increasing his chakra usage with V2 mode. Kisame and Samehada both had no problem reacting to and outmaneuvering V1 Bee's speed [
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]-[
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]. In fact, Hachibi, who is far more intelligent and analytical then Bee, wanted Bee to go Hachibi mode after realising that V1 wasn't going to be serviceable. There is nothing supporting or suggesting that base & V1 Bee could get the job here, shunshin included.@ Bold, we're discussing a match between Sasuke and a CQC only fighter. My point was that Kisame looked more impressive in CQC against Bee, then Sasuke did. So I wasn't sure how you concluded that Sasuke>Kisame in everything relating to speed.
I said should be around that level of speed. Based on what 6G Gai did to Kisame, Vs a bunch of Obito's V2 Jins, and
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.It doesn't appear that Sasuke was very proficient with Amaterasu yet [
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], which is very similar to how Kakashi was with Kamui before he got proficient with it as well [
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]-[
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]. Added to the fact that tracking a gated user even with the sharingan isn't easy due to velocity and power of their movements [
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]-[
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], it isn't going to be an easy feat to land Amaterasu on Lee. Gated users are extremely pain resistant, so I don't see it being a fight ending issue.
Forbidden Technique
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KidGamer65
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B doesn't have the raw power to deal Kisame w/o his Jinchuuriki powers. If he engages him in Base, he's slower and his attacks practically do nothing. So no, speed wasn't the issue here. It was overpowering Samehada's absorption. Whether or not Base or V1 can get the job done with Shunshin doesn't matter as that's not the point. The point is, speed wasn't why Killer B failed against Kisame. Kisame has shown that he was capable of reacting to B, but Sasuke's feat of evading B surpasses his feats of reacting to and outmanuvering B in CQC when B moves faster w/ Shunshin than he does in CQC.
Only reason Kisame outdid him is because of his chakra absorption. So nothing about that fight would make him faster than Sasuke.
Gai is better than Lee in literally every single area, and the Jins he was keeping up with are logically nowhere near as fast as Killer B since Killer B is already somewhat of a speedster in Base let alone V1 and V2, and the Gudo Dama aren't even particularly fast in the first place. 5G Gai was able to intercept one from the same distance Obito failed to warp away at, and he isn't even on par with V1 Ay in raw speed let alone V2 B.
Not seeing how you are correlating the two situations. Kakashi's inexperience with the jutsu was shown with him being unable to warp Deidara's head. Sasuke's Amaterasu was initiated just how any other Amaterasu would be initiated in the Manga.
And then he even put out the flames when Karin got caught on fire. And it'd take movements on the level of V2 Ay to even think about eluding the Sharingan, movements Lee doesn't have. So he should be fine. All Kakashi said is that it was fast while observing using his Sharingan.
But yeah, pain resistance might let him win here. Though I was more concerned about the actual damage his body would take from being exposed to the flame. Though I don't think it'd be enough to kill him. However, if Sasuke keeps on focusing his eyesight on Lee and continues to produce more flame, he'd burn up and the repel strategy wouldn't work.
Have to admit Sasuke taking this but with high difficulty.
- V1 B moves as fast as V1 Ay as seen and Ay should be around 6G Gai's speed who is superior to Lee. No way Lee stands a chance of blitzing when Sasuke easily reacts to B in mid air ...Not to mention Taka Sasuke's being able to use the Mangekyou which might be another boost in terms of tracking speed? Like the EMS being able to track Juubito? Who knows? Reason being that 3T Sasuke alone has shown to track the likes of these speedsters.
- Chidori Nagashi in a CQC would stun Lee leaving him open for Sasuke.
- Lee can't hold the gates as long as Gai can and his attacks are inferior to Gai's.
- If Lee sets himself for Asakujaku, Sasuke lights him up with Amaterasu causing him pain and preventing the technique. He can blow it away but that's done by reactivating it again. Meanwhile we're talking a healthy Sasuke who isn't worn out before he used the technique against B.
Sasuke already evaded the likes of Deidara's wide Range C2 explosion which is a pretty damn good feat when you look at the AOE. I always questioned whether or not Lee could even use Asakujaku despite having the 6th Gate. Simply because it's a feat that's high leveled when we talk of striking speed. It doesn't work by just opening the 6th Gate...It allows one to use it when they open the 6th Gate but it's a Taijutsu born under the principle of Gai as stated by the DB. Is Lee experienced enough with it or on Gai's level that he's capable of using this tech? I don't know because I know Kakashi can open 2 Gates but it's not stated that he can use primary lotus or not even listed as a user. The Gates don't grant the technique but pushes one's limit enough to use them.
- V1 B moves as fast as V1 Ay as seen and Ay should be around 6G Gai's speed who is superior to Lee. No way Lee stands a chance of blitzing when Sasuke easily reacts to B in mid air ...Not to mention Taka Sasuke's being able to use the Mangekyou which might be another boost in terms of tracking speed? Like the EMS being able to track Juubito? Who knows? Reason being that 3T Sasuke alone has shown to track the likes of these speedsters.
- Chidori Nagashi in a CQC would stun Lee leaving him open for Sasuke.
- Lee can't hold the gates as long as Gai can and his attacks are inferior to Gai's.
- If Lee sets himself for Asakujaku, Sasuke lights him up with Amaterasu causing him pain and preventing the technique. He can blow it away but that's done by reactivating it again. Meanwhile we're talking a healthy Sasuke who isn't worn out before he used the technique against B.
Sasuke already evaded the likes of Deidara's wide Range C2 explosion which is a pretty damn good feat when you look at the AOE. I always questioned whether or not Lee could even use Asakujaku despite having the 6th Gate. Simply because it's a feat that's high leveled when we talk of striking speed. It doesn't work by just opening the 6th Gate...It allows one to use it when they open the 6th Gate but it's a Taijutsu born under the principle of Gai as stated by the DB. Is Lee experienced enough with it or on Gai's level that he's capable of using this tech? I don't know because I know Kakashi can open 2 Gates but it's not stated that he can use primary lotus or not even listed as a user. The Gates don't grant the technique but pushes one's limit enough to use them.
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Tantalus Thief
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To overwhelm is to utterly defeat someone. The only instance where one could say Kisame got the best of Bee was when Shark Skin got its teeth in his cloak and flipped him but that's not beating Bee in CQC and Kisame was ONLY able to achieve even that because of his chakra absorbing abilities.
So one can't claim Kisame reactions are better than Sasukes when speed had nothing to do with Bee getting flipped over where as in Sasukes case speed was a reason Bee bested him.
So basically Kisame did what he did to Bee because of his absorption and people are taking that and saying Kisame "overwhelmed" Bee in CQC, the same Bee who overwhelmed Taka Sasuke, as if Kisame would beat Taka Sasuke in CQC when the reasons for what occurred I'm each scenario are completely different so using Kisame feats on Bee as a comparison to how Lee would fight Sasuke is faulty.
Forbidden Technique
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Bee should have known as soon as the fight started, that not everything coming near Kisame get's automatically absorbed [
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]. Which is why he attempted the tactic that he did, but quickly figured out that his base speed wasn't serviceable against Kisame, based on how he was getting outmaneuvered. And Bee still had the 7 swords dance under his sleeve that everyone loves to wank. Are you saying that Bee would rather opt into relying on his chakra forms, rather then opting in using this tactic? - since you claimed speed isn't the issue. This was way before he even knew Kisame could heal, so that isn't an excuse to say it wouldn't do anything. So chakra absorption wasn't the only issue, it was also Bee's lack of speed, which was made very evident:
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Yes, Sasuke evaded a single linear attack. He didn't have to deal with 3 different attacks at 3 different angles, and outmaneuvering Bee at point blank range fluidly at the same time. Also, what factual evidence are you basing it off of that Bee used shunshin against Sasuke, but not Kisame? Because the fact that Bee threw his raiton sword, then jumped and repositioned himself at a complete different angle, and then was able to simultaneously land his lunge with the previously thrown raiton sword tells me that their was a shunshin in use.
Smh. Kisame very clearly outdid him with his bodily movement speed. Had Kisame just sat there stationary like Preta Path does with it's absorption, then your point would stand.
Yes, I know... But I said around V2 Bee speed, since 6G Gai should be at that speed. There was no significant difference in speed displayed when base Bee went up against
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or
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, so why would there be a huge gap in their V2 forms. An attack from a Jubi's Jin isn't fast..? That sounds crazy, but I guess I don't know anything about them to begin with. The fact that Lee could outspeed it while carrying Gai sounds like a decent feat to me, but alright. Look at both the scans... After both Kamui and Amaterasu were activated (emphasis and strain on the eye), it took multiple manga panels for the jutsu to appear and land. Difference being Kakashi's target is a whole lot smaller, and obviously required more concetration and aim. This is also why Amaterasu was originally being focused at the Hachibi's head, but was blocked by it's tenticle. So I definitely see inexperience here with Sasuke.
I was eluding to all the flying debris and force caused by moving in gates would obscure his aim with Amaterasu, in addition to his seemingly inexperience in using the technique. The scans were to showcase people having to shield their faces.
Karins body was explosed to flames, but she didn't seem to sustain any significant burns that would kill Lee or render him unable to fight. We're talking about someone who can push through muscles snapping and tearing apart, yet still maintaining his strength and power.
Forbidden Technique
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Forbidden Technique
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Thought you were going to rebuttal my post to KG like the other dude did since you were on the thread for a while. Hate when people do that.
KidGamer65
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HeForbidden Technique;19958562[B said:
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that Kisame could absorb chakra at the beginning of the fight so there is no way he'd know anything about his chakra absorption or it's range. B switched to V1 after failing in Base because he didn't have the power to get past Kisame's guard, Manga makes that pretty clear. So your point about him switching to V1 despite knowing Kisame can absorb chakra doesn't hold.-The guy is surprised that the Vibrato Blade didn't pierce Kisame when it stabbed him, so was Killer B. He's also surprised that Samehada wasn't pierced by the Vibrato Blade. That's power related, not speed related. So B not using the seven swords dance doesn't prove your point, because if a single blade can't pierce Kisame or his blade, what good will the 7 swords dance do? None. Then you have to take into account that Kisame's blade is better suited as a guard than Sasuke's blade. He didn't even outmaneuver Base B, all he did was block his attack while repelling the guy with the cleaver.
3 attacks came at Kisame, yeah, but that can't be used as a plus 1 for him since he was stabbed by one Vibrato Blade, meaning his feat is simply blocking B's charge and the cleaver guy's attack. Which isn't a feat that compares to Sasuke evading V1 B's Shunshin. And when I said that he wasn't using Shunshin against Kisame, I was talking about when he tried to stab him in V1. I agree that Shunshin was used when B first charged him in Base, but V1 B>>Base B in speed.
But is that why Kisame was winning the entire match? No, obviously not.
-Sword dodges. [
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]-Kisame swings his blade, but B evades. However due to Samehada's ability to absorb chakra, Killer B's cloak loses 6 of it's tails. [
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] In fact I'm not sure why you cite this scan as evidence of Kisame outmaneuvering B when this scan shows nothing but Killer B evading Kisame's attack. Had Kisame not been able to absorb chakra, B would've gotten out of that encounter unscathed. The only form of dodging shown by Kisame in this fight when it comes to cloaked B is when B tried to stab him. How are you even claiming that Kisame looked more impressive than Sasuke against B when Why would V2 B and V2 Jins get an equal boost in power when V2 B has more power under his belt due to having 8 tails in V2 mode?
And that particular attack? No. Not really.
-Hiruzen was able to react to Obito's Gudo Dama attack.
-Naruto was able to stretch his chakra arm, grab Minato and Minato was able to warp before Obito could stab Naruto and Sasuke point blank with the Gudo Dama.
And how does Lee dodging it mean that Lee outsped it?
But there's no way to tell if that's because of inexperience. Though it's pretty clear to me that Kishimoto made an emphasis on the usage of their jutsu because it was the first time they used said jutsu in the entire Manga. Strain is always going to be apart of MS jutsu no matter how experienced you are, and the time it took for Kakashi was already explained.
And Amaterasu hit Hachibi's tentacle because Hachibi was able to move it in the way before Amaterasu could spawn.
Depends on the location, but I don't recall movement in Gates creating enough debris to cause Sasuke to lose focus. When Gai attacked Madara all we saw were small gashes in the ground where he moved. So I doubt 6G Lee is going to be able to do something that'd hinder Sasuke's vision.
Yeah, a stray fireball that latched onto her body after Amaterasu had been used on Hachibi, who was the main target and was the one rolling on the floor in Pain. Lee isn't going to fair any better than a Bijuu. He fights through all that in Gates because opening the Gates gives him energy, and besides, the damage Amaterasu will do with a direct hit to the frontal is going to be worse than his muscles tearing.
And like I said, Sasuke can continue to create the flame if he tries to blow it away, which would also increase the amount of damage he takes and the rate he takes it at.
Sasuke wins high diff. Reacting to Lee's speed should not be a problem with MS. Karin noted that Sasuke's chakra in MS was stronger than his chakra in CM2. Sasuke said it was easy to react to v1 Bee's speed as well, and he casually reacted to Mifune's striking speed like it was nothing. Obviously Lee has greater striking speed, but nothing overwhelming for Sasuke, especially since he has Chidori Nagashi and Genjutsu. It's not like Lee can fight looking at his opponent's feet like Gai can, so that's a pretty massive obstacle he'll need to overcome given any form of Genjutsu one shots him. His Genjutsu Kai is probably Genin-Chunnin, nothing in front of MS; especially when MS Sasuke's 3T can make elite Jonin Genjutsu users like Cee faint.
Not sure why people are suggesting Asa Kujaku is problematic either, I don't see why snake summons like these [
Not sure why people are suggesting Asa Kujaku is problematic either, I don't see why snake summons like these [
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] don't deal with it when they already tanked a massive C1 bird exploding
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. The snake only had some of its skin burned, its flesh was completely unaffected and it didn't seem to be in any apparent pain at all. Here it'll just be set ablaze, no explosion at all, so Sasuke will be totally fine as the heat is definitely not melting through the entire snake. He de-summons it and all the flames go with it. For Sasuke's offensive lets just go with one-shotting Amaterasu which Lee has no counters for.^^Good point..I was going to use that Snake's tanking feat point but thought not to since I just assumed it was Sasuke that fought B strictly?
Lee can blow off Amaterasu by activating the Gates but Sasuke can just punish him when he decides to use Asakujaku while he's in the gates already. Then he'll be forced to go off and reactivate the 6th gate. Not like he can even hold it up as long as Gai can when Sasuke can just do this every time to prevent Asakujaku which can't be used that much given Lee's level compared to Gai's.
Lee can blow off Amaterasu by activating the Gates but Sasuke can just punish him when he decides to use Asakujaku while he's in the gates already. Then he'll be forced to go off and reactivate the 6th gate. Not like he can even hold it up as long as Gai can when Sasuke can just do this every time to prevent Asakujaku which can't be used that much given Lee's level compared to Gai's.
Well there are an immense amount of snakes in Ryuchi cave. There's these too [
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][
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]. Sasuke should be fine against any Asa Kujaku as long as he as snakes as his meat shield. Plus, since that snake logically survived I'd assume it's totally fine now, just like when Toad trio got all their bones destroyed by Deva.Oh yea, totally didn't think about that. Although he'll sustain a decent amount of damage, I don't think Lee can take Ama two times for a couple of seconds without being in horrible condition after. But yea, the gap is pretty big between Lee and Gai and I'm not even sure how strong Lee should be in 6G compared to Gai.
Asakujaku has no validity in this match when Sasuke was mentally reacting Bee's 7 sword dance, though with minor injuries. Not to mention on mid-air dodging V1 Bee's blitz, which Lee is easy to avoid. Sasuke butchers Lee, low diff.