So its official, the full sized Katsuyu is the strongest summon

Is Katsuyu the strongest summon?

  • Definitely

    Votes: 16 33.3%
  • Dunno

    Votes: 6 12.5%
  • Strong, but not the strongest

    Votes: 26 54.2%

  • Total voters
    48

LUMOS ULTIMATUM

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In the OP pic, humans are visible. Here, they will be indistinct from the giant trees. If katsuyu was 10 times bigger, she will be more or less equal to kyuubi. Tsunade couldn't summon full katsuyu because she was out of chakra and sakura also.
 

Draphsin

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Trust me, I did, but it doesn't fit. Hashi was never associated with Slugs till now, he never even spoke to Katsuyu till now. The one you can associate is rather with Mito than him as she had the Byakugo diamond seal.

Nobody even guessed that hashi had SM before he used it. Just because he didnt mention katsuyu doesnt discredit any of the evidence that points towards him having slug SM. It can pop out of nowhere, no mention of it means nothing.

As for what it is, I know what it is, but going behind that, if you leave that up, the similarities between the tree and his mokuton is rather quite strong.

You cant just "look behind" that, its strong evidence which goes against your theory. Why is slug SM a less likely option when there's no proof to suggest it being false? Yet there's evidence to suggest that your tree SM theory is false.

Think about it, he could very well have one because:
Three magic places associated with the 3 animals that was said to known/attain/whatever Senjutsu as in, Natural Energy.
But then, with the whole Bijuu transformation thing, in-between, we get another mention of Natural Energy. And that being TenTails... which surprinsingly transforms into a tree that has similar traits with Hashi's SM and techniques.
Thus, we have a 4th mention of Natural Energy which breaks the whole 3 magic places. Thus, we can conclude that besides those 3 magic places, there's an ultimate source of Natural Energy that is the Tree itself [somehow, dunno, this need to be further explained] which only leads logically to the idea that his SM is unique to him and has nothing to do with the Animal Trinity and their Natural Energy possesion/Sage Modes.

No, you're thinking about it all wrong...The tree of the juubi is the body, the flower is the eye. The eye/body were separated & given to the elder/younger son. Hashi has mokuton because mokuton is the original body of the juubi, this is what he inherited as a descendant of the younger son. However hashi's mokuton is not senjutsu, he needs to activate SM in order to use senjutsu mokuton.


SM & hashi's mokuton are not linked, SM is the mastery of senjutsu. Something taught hashi how to master senjutsu, it had to have been an animal. Any other explanation is completely illogical..
 

Chatte

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Nobody even guessed that hashi had SM before he used it. Just because he didnt mention katsuyu doesnt discredit any of the evidence that points towards him having slug SM. It can pop out of nowhere, no mention of it means nothing.

Which can same be applied to either Sakura or Tsunade.



You cant just "look behind" that, its strong evidence which goes against your theory. Why is slug SM a less likely option when there's no proof to suggest it being false? Yet there's evidence to suggest that your tree SM theory is false.
Oh, yes you can because those are the gaps that get filled by the author. I have done this thing several times before with my Sakura theories and in the end, though people said "not possible" look at what's happening now. My theories are coming true.
Why it is? Because as I said, given that we saw some necessities in order to come in contact with the Slugs and given Kishi's writing pattern, in the majority of cases doesn't fit. I could say the same for your theory, that's completely false given the fact that, unlike Tsunade and/or Sakura, who have been seen working with the slugs and the Shikkotsu Forest was mentioned only in context with the two of them, there's no such case with Hashirama.
No Byakugo seal in order to be able to summon them, no actual contact between the two of them, like in Sakura's case, for example, no nothing. Yet, in the other case, it quite holds it.

No, you're thinking about it all wrong...The tree of the juubi is the body, the flower is the eye. The eye/body were separated & given to the elder/younger son. Hashi has mokuton because mokuton is the original body of the juubi, this is what he inherited as a descendant of the younger son. However hashi's mokuton is not senjutsu, he needs to activate SM in order to use senjutsu mokuton.

SM & hashi's mokuton are not linked, SM is the mastery of senjutsu. Something taught hashi how to master senjutsu, it had to have been an animal. Any other explanation is completely illogical..[/QUOTE]

And why exactly am I thinking it wrong when the actual current Juubi body was made out of Hashirama's DNA which was cultivated via Madara? When it was clearly explained when juubi had the final transformation before turning into the tree that it's the natural energy surrounding the earth? On the contrary, like you explained, him having mokuton because of that, and the Juubi's body being made out of mokuton which was said prior the full transformation it's made out of Natural Energy is actually more inclining on a special kind of Sage Mode.

LE, not to mention looking at the last chapters, the things that came out of the tree to attack people from the alliance were very reminescent with Hashirama's one:

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Draphsin

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Which can same be applied to either Sakura or Tsunade.

Why did you even bring them up...?:|


Oh, yes you can because those are the gaps that get filled by the author. I have done this thing several times before with my Sakura theories and in the end, though people said "not possible" look at what's happening now. My theories are coming true.

You said sakura can fly....Your theories arent coming true, the ones that do are most likely deductible by anyone...

Why it is? Because as I said, given that we saw some necessities in order to come in contact with the Slugs and given Kishi's writing pattern, in the majority of cases doesn't fit. I could say the same for your theory, that's completely false given the fact that, unlike Tsunade and/or Sakura, who have been seen working with the slugs and the Shikkotsu Forest was mentioned only in context with the two of them, there's no such case with Hashirama.
No Byakugo seal in order to be able to summon them, no actual contact between the two of them, like in Sakura's case, for example, no nothing. Yet, in the other case, it quite holds it.

@Bold: see, you're trying to turn my logic against me, but that doesnt work, lemme break it down for ya. ;)

Hashi is tsunade's grandfather, that alone is the association which links hashi to slugs, that & as I said the mokuton is also a strong hint towards it.

The bold in no way falsifies my claim, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, hashi having no direct interaction with a slug of his own means nothing.

Hashi has indirect association with the slugs, just because he hasnt been mentioned in conjunction with them doesnt mean that its not a possibility.

& btw where is it stated in the manga that you need a summoning contract with the animal in order to master that animal's SM? By your logic hashi can summon trees, where are hashi's trees to summon?

Also, hashi doesnt need the byakugou seal, he has enough chakra & can heal himself anyways. Also he doesnt need to have contact with slugs in order for slug SM to not be a possibility, I already explained this, please keep up. ;)

And why exactly am I thinking it wrong when the actual current Juubi body was made out of Hashirama's DNA which was cultivated via Madara? When it was clearly explained when juubi had the final transformation before turning into the tree that it's the natural energy surrounding the earth? On the contrary, like you explained, him having mokuton because of that, and the Juubi's body being made out of mokuton which was said prior the full transformation it's made out of Natural Energy is actually more inclining on a special kind of Sage Mode.

This is where you dont understand, hashi's mokuton & SM are not connected because his mokuton encompasses ninjutsu, his mokuton KKG ability is inherited from the younger son who possessed the juubi's body (mokuton).

The juubi itself had nature energy, not his body. Not all mokuton in the world encompasses nature energy. Remember when naruto's yang release resonated with yamato's mokuton? That proves that mokuton is life(yang) chakra, not senjutsu chakra. Hashi has mokuton ninjutsu, he gains SM just like any other shinobi, your logic suggests that his mokuton is always senjutsu chakra, when this clearly isnt the case.
 

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Why did you even bring them up...?:|
Because till further notice, they're the only ones having connections with Slugs/Katsuyu.

You said sakura can fly....Your theories arent coming true, the ones that do are most likely deductible by anyone...

What? I never said that. You must confuse me with someone else.



@Bold: see, you're trying to turn my logic against me, but that doesnt work, lemme break it down for ya. ;)

Hashi is tsunade's grandfather, that alone is the association which links hashi to slugs, that & as I said the mokuton is also a strong hint towards it.

So what is her grandfather? If he doesn't have a contract, he can be her whatever, it doesn't count. That's why it's needed a blood contract.

The bold in no way falsifies my claim, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, hashi having no direct interaction with a slug of his own means nothing.

Than by this logic, everyone would be able to have a SM just because... Looking at Kishi's writing pattern, this would be an element for your theory.

Hashi has indirect association with the slugs, just because he hasnt been mentioned in conjunction with them doesnt mean that its not a possibility.

In order to gain a SM ability, you need a contract with a summon animal like you said, right? Well, then how could you explain it otherwise if it's not the special kind of mokuton which would be granted via mokuton? You're starting to contradict yourself a bit.


& btw where is it stated in the manga that you need a summoning contract with the animal in order to master that animal's SM? By your logic hashi can summon trees, where are hashi's trees to summon?

The animal gives the training, thus you need a contract with them, otherwise you cannot have access to it, unless, like I explained, it's this [theory] case with his special kind of SM granted by the mokuton.

Also, hashi doesnt need the byakugou seal, he has enough chakra & can heal himself anyways. Also he doesnt need to have contact with slugs in order for slug SM to not be a possibility, I already explained this, please keep up. ;)

Where did Hashirama healed himself outside the SM? Nowhere. In order to be a Slug Sage Mode user, first, he'd have to have a contract with the Slugs which would grant him the ability to train there, therefore, he'd need the Byakugo seal. But he doesn't have it.
No offense, but your explanation is quite faulty and missing certain elements.
And by the way, I updated my previous post. If it needs update once again, let me mention it.
Thus, as I said, looking at the last chapters, from the tree, several figures appeared to attack the alliance highly reminescent with Hashirama's ones.

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This is where you dont understand, hashi's mokuton & SM are not connected because his mokuton encompasses ninjutsu, his mokuton KKG ability is inherited from the younger son who possessed the juubi's body (mokuton).

Remind me from where all ninjutsu comes? Oh, right, from the tree itself. I already explained you the fact that the Juubi's body is made out of mokuton, which happens to be Hashi's domain, which happens to equal as well Natural Energy which would grant Hashirama a different SM than the ones used by the Animal Trinities.

The juubi itself had nature energy, not his body. Not all mokuton in the world encompasses nature energy. Remember when naruto's yang release resonated with yamato's mokuton? That proves that mokuton is life(yang) chakra, not senjutsu chakra. Hashi has mokuton ninjutsu, he gains SM just like any other shinobi, your logic suggests that his mokuton is always senjutsu chakra, when this clearly isnt the case.

Actually, manga tells us otherwise, that the Juubi itself [which once again I mention is made out of Mokuton] is Natural Energy itself.

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Funny how here it's mentioned earth and water which both make the mokuton.

Yes, indeed it resonated and the normal mokuton seems to be indeed ninjutsu, however, as we've seen when he enters SM, he is granted with superior Mokuton abilities.
And that's where the mystery lies and as I said, the gap which has to be filled by the author. But you cannot deny the fact that the Juubi's body which and Hashirama's techniques have all that stuff in common thus suggesting more towards the fact that Hashirama's SM comes from the Juubi itself, not the Slugs.
 

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Can't really estimate her size.

I however wouldn't call her the strongest summon. One would have a hard time summoning her full size, when Tsunade and Sakura with Kurama's Chakra and both using Byakugo summoned only 1/10 of her. Considering she is the strongest at her full size, one summoner anyway wouldn't summon her at full size.

Maybe, Hashirama could..
 

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Because till further notice, they're the only ones having connections with Slugs/Katsuyu.

NO, that is your assumption. There is nothing suggesting that tsunade/saukra are the only two people who are associated with slugs. To assume that they are the only ones because they are the only ones to show it is based on the absence of evidence.

What? I never said that. You must confuse me with someone else.

I guess so, you sakura fans are all pretty similar u_u


So what is her grandfather? If he doesn't have a contract, he can be her whatever, it doesn't count. That's why it's needed a blood contract.

Wrong, show me where a blood contract is needed, otherwise you saying that it "doesnt count" is your blatant opinion.

He hasnt shown the ability to be able to summon slugs, that doesnt mean that he doesnt have slug SM, drawing to such a conclusion with no further support is quite funny. Lol

Than by this logic, everyone would be able to have a SM just because... Looking at Kishi's writing pattern, this would be an element for your theory.

We know the requirement for SM, learn to read my logic properly....Where is the proof to suggest that all ninjas possess SM? There is none, I base my assumptions off of proof that leads to the most likely scenario/outcome/possibility, when there is no proof to suggest something then I will not consider it. However when there is proof of something then I will, the lack of proof means zero, its the proof in front of us that we must consider...

In order to gain a SM ability, you need a contract with a summon animal like you said, right? Well, then how could you explain it otherwise if it's not the special kind of mokuton which would be granted via mokuton? You're starting to contradict yourself a bit.

Dont put words in my mouth, where in this thread did I say that you need a contract with a summon animal?? I didnt contradict myself you simply stated something that I never said.

As I said, hashi doesnt summon trees, he creates trees.


The animal gives the training, thus you need a contract with them, otherwise you cannot have access to it, unless, like I explained, it's this [theory] case with his special kind of SM granted by the mokuton.

& where is it stated that you need a contract with the animals in order to learn their SM?

Where did Hashirama healed himself outside the SM? Nowhere. In order to be a Slug Sage Mode user, first, he'd have to have a contract with the Slugs which would grant him the ability to train there, therefore, he'd need the Byakugo seal. But he doesn't have it.

Pure assumption, Show me the scan stating that you need a contract in order to have the ability to train with the slugs.

& wtf is with your logic????? What does having no contract with the slugs have to do with the byakugo seal....? I'm seriously not following your thought process....

No offense, but your explanation is quite faulty and missing certain elements.

I can easily say the same thing about yours, at least my theory doesnt have proof contradicting its possibility (mokuton being comprised of ninjutsu).

Thus, as I said, looking at the last chapters, from the tree, several figures appeared to attack the alliance highly reminescent with Hashirama's ones.

Lol so because the juubi attacks like hashi that means that hashi has mokuton SM, great train of thought...Madara can attack in the same manner, does that mean that he has senjutsu/nature energy as well?

Remind me from where all ninjutsu comes? Oh, right, from the tree itself. I already explained you the fact that the Juubi's body is made out of mokuton, which happens to be Hashi's domain, which happens to equal as well Natural Energy which would grant Hashirama a different SM than the ones used by the Animal Trinities.

Yes it does, but what does that change? lol you think this means anything? ninjutsu & senjutsu are different, this has been explained.

& just because the juubi is made of natural energy that means that there is another SM altogether?? The conclusions that you jump to are rather amusing, Lol.

The juubi is the progenitor of all chakra, just because it encompasses nature energy doesnt mean that it grants a completely different SM, that makes no sense.

Animal sages collect the senjutsu from around them, the tree is senjutsu. The tree doesnt collect senjutsu around it & then uses senjutsu as a form of attack. This would suggest that trees may have their own form of SM, however you obviously overlook the fact that animal sages dont have senjutsu within them, they use the senjutsu around them.

Completely different concept from your tree....u_u

Actually, manga tells us otherwise, that the Juubi itself [which once again I mention is made out of Mokuton] is Natural Energy itself.

Funny how here it's mentioned earth and water which both make the mokuton.

For the love of all that's good in the world read my posts......

I already told you that the juubi itself is nature energy, its body however isnt. The juubi is made up of chakra & mokuton, the chakra is senjutsu, that doesnt make the mokuton itself senjutsu.

Example, naturo goes SM, does this now mean that his entire body is made up of senjutsu? Or is his body the same as it was before, but he just has extra senjutsu stored in it? The latter is the obvious answer. u_u

Yes, indeed it resonated and the normal mokuton seems to be indeed ninjutsu, however, as we've seen when he enters SM, he is granted with superior Mokuton abilities.

And jiraiya can crate massive rasengans/katon with SM, does this mean that there's a "rasengan" or "katon" SM now? u_u

And that's where the mystery lies and as I said, the gap which has to be filled by the author. But you cannot deny the fact that the Juubi's body which and Hashirama's techniques have all that stuff in common thus suggesting more towards the fact that Hashirama's SM comes from the Juubi itself, not the Slugs.

There is almost no fact in what you speculate, you're drawing ridiculous conclusions based on facts that arent even relevant. You're taking the fact that the juubi's chakra is senjutsu & saying that there's a completely new place containing a 4th SM which is what hashi has (because he has mokuton which is like the juubi's body).

All of these connections are all over the place, & the fact that hashi's mokuton is ninjutsu is clear proof contradicting your theory, what contradicts mine? The fact that hashi hasnt shown any summoning contract? Well how do you know that his slug is even alive?

Slug SM is far more likely, by leaps & bounds in fact. There is nothing to contradict that conclusion.
 
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Cornson

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biggest does not mean it's the strongest.
 

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NO, that is your assumption. There is nothing suggesting that tsunade/saukra are the only two people who are associated with slugs. To assume that they are the only ones because they are the only ones to show it is based on the absence of evidence.



I guess so, you sakura fans are all pretty similar u_u




Wrong, show me where a blood contract is needed, otherwise you saying that it "doesnt count" is your blatant opinion.

He hasnt shown the ability to be able to summon slugs, that doesnt mean that he doesnt have slug SM, drawing to such a conclusion with no further support is quite funny. Lol



We know the requirement for SM, learn to read my logic properly....Where is the proof to suggest that all ninjas possess SM? There is none, I base my assumptions off of proof that leads to the most likely scenario/outcome/possibility, when there is no proof to suggest something then I will not consider it. However when there is proof of something then I will, the lack of proof means zero, its the proof in front of us that we must consider...



Dont put words in my mouth, where in this thread did I say that you need a contract with a summon animal?? I didnt contradict myself you simply stated something that I never said.

As I said, hashi doesnt summon trees, he creates trees.




& where is it stated that you need a contract with the animals in order to learn their SM?



Pure assumption, Show me the scan stating that you need a contract in order to have the ability to train with the slugs.

& wtf is with your logic????? What does having no contract with the slugs have to do with the byakugo seal....? I'm seriously not following your thought process....



I can easily say the same thing about yours, at least my theory doesnt have proof contradicting its possibility (mokuton being comprised of ninjutsu).



Lol so because the juubi attacks like hashi that means that hashi has mokuton SM, great train of thought...Madara can attack in the same manner, does that mean that he has senjutsu/nature energy as well?



Yes it does, but what does that change? lol you think this means anything? ninjutsu & senjutsu are different, this has been explained.

& just because the juubi is made of natural energy that means that there is another SM altogether?? The conclusions that you jump to are rather amusing, Lol.

The juubi is the progenitor of all chakra, just because it encompasses nature energy doesnt mean that it grants a completely different SM, that makes no sense.

Animal sages collect the senjutsu from around them, the tree is senjutsu. The tree doesnt collect senjutsu around it & then uses senjutsu as a form of attack. This would suggest that trees may have their own form of SM, however you obviously overlook the fact that animal sages dont have senjutsu within them, they use the senjutsu around them.

Completely different concept from your tree....u_u



For the love of all that's good in the world read my posts......

I already told you that the juubi itself is nature energy, its body however isnt. The juubi is made up of chakra & mokuton, the chakra is senjutsu, that doesnt make the mokuton itself senjutsu.

Example, naturo goes SM, does this now mean that his entire body is made up of senjutsu? Or is his body the same as it was before, but he just has extra senjutsu stored in it? The latter is the obvious answer. u_u



And jiraiya can crate massive rasengans/katon with SM, does this mean that there's a "rasengan" or "katon" SM now? u_u



There is almost no fact in what you speculate, you're drawing ridiculous conclusions based on facts that arent even relevant. You're taking the fact that the juubi's chakra is senjutsu & saying that there's a completely new place containing a 4th SM which is what hashi has (because he has mokuton which is like the juubi's body).

All of these connections are all over the place, & the fact that hashi's mokuton is ninjutsu is clear proof contradicting your theory, what contradicts mine? The fact that hashi hasnt shown any summoning contract? Well how do you know that his slug is even alive?

Slug SM is far more likely, by leaps & bounds in fact. There is nothing to contradict that conclusion.

I would like to point out your absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence argument is weak. Going by that logic, Tobirama is familiar with Mount Myoboku therefore he may have toad summons. Essentially the argument states that anything that hasn't been expressly stated not to be in a characters power may be in that characters power. But you can't compose a a theory off of that idea.

Why would you assume anyone else can summon slugs, if no one else has been seen or hinted at for summoning slugs. That's the same argument I mentioned above. Hell, I could easily argue it hasn't been stated that Konohamaru doesn't have a contract with toads and Naruto taught him things therefore it's a reasonable conclusion Konohamaru will summon toads and have sage mode.

Oooh ad hominem nice, that's always a valid way to argue your case.

....LMAO "He hasnt shown the ability to be able to summon slugs, that doesnt mean that he doesnt have slug SM, drawing to such a conclusion with no further support is quite funny. Lol"
The fact that Tsunade hasn't used sage mode doesn't mean she doesn't have it. Same argument you used. Except Tsunade actually has a relation to slugs, a very notable affinity to the extent she has been referred to as the slug queen/princess. Whereas, Hashirama has shown no affinity whatsoever but has a sage mode that has shown no similarity to the slugs we've seen in the manga. Tsunade's ability to regenerate is based off of her affinity with slugs. Two of the other sannin have sage modes. I think you are making the weaker argument, at least in this thread.

And most importantly when you use the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence argument as a staple in your main argument for Hashirama having a slug affinity, you have no room to call someone else's theory ridiculous.
 

Booker

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Katsuyu solos

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But seriously she is the strongest, acid flood one shots most.
 

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If this random slug thing kills Obito then I will be impressed. Otherwise, I don't really care and I don't think it'll get more than maybe 3 panels worth of time from here on out.
 

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Enma beats to a pulp
 

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Bigger than the normal Katsuyu, yes. But not bigger than the full sized Katsuyu.

even Manda I is bigger than normal Katsuyu let alone II
we dont know how big Katuyu is.
but we know how big Manda 2 is
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we also know how big that turtle is, aren't we :D
 

Draphsin

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I would like to point out your absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence argument is weak. Going by that logic, Tobirama is familiar with Mount Myoboku therefore he may have toad summons. Essentially the argument states that anything that hasn't been expressly stated not to be in a characters power may be in that characters power. But you can't compose a a theory off of that idea.

Lol no its not, tobirama may have that ability, we dont know for sure however he has no feats with any sort of toads so you cant add it in his arsenal.

This is obviously a theory & therefore assumptions have to be made, my assumption as I said has no contradictions as opposed to the tree theory which does. I will side with my theory more because it cant be proven wrong in the manga.
Many ninjas may have jutsus that have been suggested in the manga, oro with arms logically has more jutsus than his rashomon gates, but we cant use any of them because we dont know what they are, same with tobirama. He may have a toad summon but we dont know what it is or if its even alive, no feats of a toad? Then why should I add it in his arsenal?

Why would you assume anyone else can summon slugs, if no one else has been seen or hinted at for summoning slugs. That's the same argument I mentioned above. Hell, I could easily argue it hasn't been stated that Konohamaru doesn't have a contract with toads and Naruto taught him things therefore it's a reasonable conclusion Konohamaru will summon toads and have sage mode.

Where did I ever assume that hashi can summon slugs? Lol.

This whole point is based off of the fact that I assumed that hashi can even summon slugs, its possible however I never said that it's true. u_u

....LMAO "He hasnt shown the ability to be able to summon slugs, that doesnt mean that he doesnt have slug SM, drawing to such a conclusion with no further support is quite funny. "
The fact that Tsunade hasn't used sage mode doesn't mean she doesn't have it. Same argument you used. Except Tsunade actually has a relation to slugs, a very notable affinity to the extent she has been referred to as the slug queen/princess. Whereas, Hashirama has shown no affinity whatsoever but has a sage mode that has shown no similarity to the slugs we've seen in the manga. Tsunade's ability to regenerate is based off of her affinity with slugs. Two of the other sannin have sage modes. I think you are making the weaker argument, at least in this thread.

No, you're clearly missing my point & thinking that this somehow breaks my case, & you're putting words into my mouth (damn NB has a real knack for doing that...:rolleyes:)

Where did I ever say that tsunade doesnt have SM? its possible, she just hasnt shown it so we cant add it into her arsenal in a 1v1 (same as tobirama/toads). We dont know if she can control nature energy properly, we dont know how long she can maintain it if she has it, we dont know what she's like if she has it. Giving her SM feats is fanfiction, however the possibility of her having it is actually likely...

And most importantly when you use the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence argument as a staple in your main argument for Hashirama having a slug affinity, you have no room to call someone else's theory ridiculous.

There is more proof to suggest that hashi has slug SM than any other form of SM, I can easily use the absence of evidence argument because my theory holds more weight. Hashi not displaying any form of slug summon does not change the fact that slug SM is a higher possibility, because direct slug affiliation is not the only form of proof that we need in order for it to be true.
 
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