So... Hiruzen vs Tsunade?

[MuerteMiAmigo]

old man hiruzen with unlimited chakra wins 1-4
tsunade + sage j-man would be too much i think

 

[Touken]

1: That's not proof. I'm still waiting.

She herself has stated that her healing jutsu uses chakra to quicken the process of mitosis and mitosis does not counter paralysis.

2. BPD proved Tsunade can change her chakra to electricity as she said that, which means that she could if she wanted send electrical charge through her own nervous system making any raiton based attack to paralyse her null and void. (of course not hitting herself before you mis interpret me, but control her own internally)

Need scans please.

3.She does tank, because she is not paralyzed. Yes they were small in terms of width, you want to tell me that someone couldn't dodge that?

If you are banking Hiruzens win on paralysis/shuriken tech as a new thing it's not going to work. What's next?

Once you've shown evidence that she can control her own nervous system then I'll concede my points.

 

[Joshutsu]

She herself has stated that her healing jutsu uses chakra to quicken the process of mitosis and mitosis does not counter paralysis.


Need scans please.

Once you've shown evidence that she can control her own nervous system then I'll concede my points.

What exactly does paralysis affect it's nerves I think? I assume cell division cannot fix? You can have that.

However

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There is your proof. She stated she changed her chakra to electricity and sent it into another persons nervous system. I see nothign stopping her from changing her chakra into electricity and channeling the electrical waves within herself.

 

[KidGamer65]

What exactly backs the assumption that Hiruzen is far superior in CQC? The data book? No. Manga feats? Not really. Hype? Well Hiruzen is an all rounder whereas Tsunade is one who uses taijutsu and specialises in it, I doubt Hiruzen would shit on her in taijutsu as easily as you are making it out to be. I guess he overwhelmed Orochimaru in taijutsu but Oro was never a taijutsu oriented fighter and I do recall Tsunade defeating Orochimaru in a taijutsu boute. Not saying she can beat Hiruzen in taijutsu and not saying she can beat Oro in an actual fight.

Tsunade doesn't really specialize in Taijutsu so to speak. She rushes in and punches her opponent, she fights using brute force. She has never, ever shown a distinct style of taijutsu if that's what you mean. If not then my bad.

She is easy prey for Hiruzen and Enma considering her linear and predictable fighting style.

Enma gets knocked out of commission considering it

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and Hiruzen will feel his hand get jammed by the sheer force. Presumably, the force may be so great that Enma ends up impaling Hiruzen's body. Or Tsunade grabs Enma and throws it away and if Hiruzen decides to hang on to it,

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happens to him.

Tsunade's punch isn't going to knock Enma out, it being able to get hurt doesn't mean Tsunade is going to one shot an Adamantine Staff with her punch. Especially if he uses the cage mode.

If Hiruzen holds the pole in a horizontal manner and uses it to block her fist, how in the world is it going to impale him? And how is she going to go from punching straight into grabbing onto Enma and taking it from Hiruzen before Hiruzen decides to do something about it? She'd be left in a similar position to Naruto after having

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Giving Hiruzen enough time to spit an elemental jutsu in her face or get back and bash her away with Enma.

Sure edo Hiruzen or Prime Hiruzen should be able to kill her low-mid difficulty but old Hiruzen wins mid-high difficulty. However, before Hiruzen got his recent feats, Tsunade not only beat him rather easily but was overall stronger than him. I don't understand why you'd think otherwise. Anyhow Tsunade winning by attrition wouldn't make her weaker than old Hiruzen necessarily because it is quite possible than Hiruzen can get caught off guard like Kabuto, Oro and Madara did. They were faster than her but got caught off guard. Hell Asuma is faster than Hidan and got caught off guard before he ran out of chakra. Not to mention Tsunade has great destructive power, almost as great as Sakura's which can act as a defence and offence since a huge amount of earth was uprooted which can block Hiruzen's ninjutsu, line of sight. Not to mention it can possibly throw him off guard due to the sheer noise and debris flying around. Not to mention that Hiruzen tanking such a shockwaves or dodging them effortlessly probably won't happen if your scenario has him utilize Enma to take Tsunade on in CQC.

I agree that Old Hiruzen has a harder time beating her.

@bold: If her only option is to outlast him, then yes, she is weaker than him as she couldn't defeat him head on. Getting caught off guard also supports my point, not yours. Madara wouldn't be weaker than Tsunade if he got caught off guard and she landed a fatal hit.

Now I'm confused. Are you talking about speed or strength here? Cause I never said Hiruzen was faster than Tsunade, so I don't see how your example would hold up here.

If Hiruzen is in cqc with Tsunade, she won't be punching the ground, not when that makes it easy for Hiruzen to hit her backward with Enma, or repel her with his Fuuton (Which only needs 1 hand seal btw)

If she isn't and she does this to block his Ninjutsu or Line of Sight, its not going to work for blocking Ninjutsu considering the sheer range and scale of his Ninjutsu would wash over the punches AoE, meaning it'd still hit Tsunade. Or it'd just rip right through considering those are just ordinary rocks, and these are Bijuu sized streams of Nature Transformations, this goes for Raiton and Katon especially, considering Raiton pierces and

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just by grazing past the ground. And his sense of smell that let him find Hashirama and Tobirama in total darkness means Tsunade isn't going to get the jump on him or catch him off guard.

What if he uses 2 at a time? Or more so, 1 right after another. That'd make blocking with rocks useless.

I agree but only if the giant shuriken were infused with raiton or fuuton chakra. Without the elemental enhancement, shuriken aren't cutting through bones.

Yet they can cut through Hachibi's full sized tentacles.

Yet a small Kunai can chop Orochimaru's hand clean off, unless you are telling me a Kunai will have more cutting power than a Fuhma Shuriken.

Shuriken, Kunai and the like can and will cut through bones even without the enhancment, already shown in the manga. Regardless, your method makes it much easier.

Piercing attacks aren't mean to decapitate, slicing attacks are. A raiton bolt may create a hole in Tsunade's body but that doesn't finish her off due to Byakogou. As for electrocution, well that is useless since Byakogou tanks electrocution unless you are talking about paralysis. If that is what you are talking about, than bare in mind that Tsunade has shown the ability to control the electrical signals in other people's body so I'm sure she has what it takes to prevent raiton from messing up the electrical signals in her nerves. Sasuke managed to resist raiton paralysis due to his ability to control raiton chakra. Tsunade hasn't shown skill in raiton release but she has shown skill in dealing with electrical signals within the nervous system.

Who was ever talking about decapitation here? A giant Raiton bolt will rip her to shreds. I hope you don't think a Bijuu+ sized bolt of lightning is going to simply put a hole in her body when the whole bolt is already much larger than her body to begin with, that isn't even physically possible.

I was referring to paralysis, and Tsunade convering her chakra to electric signals isn't the same as being able to control Raiton chakra, so yes, paralysis will still effect her.

I remember you saying base Tsunade shits on Darui but these arguments allow Darui to shit on full power Tsunade.

Darui wins, simply changed my mind. He would win for similar reasons Hebi Sasuke would win.

I actually feel dumb for saying Tsunade in base shits on Darui now.

Okay now you are sounding like a Tsunade hater. Those boulders can push back Tsunade but Tsunade isn't turning into a stain in the dirt unless he manages to surround her from all sides with this attack and even then, can't Tsunade just jump above it? Now if Tsunade tries to keep chakra in her feat, the force may end up obliterating her body but if she allows herself to get smacked backwards, the kinetic energy within the attack will transfer into Tsunade as opposed to transferring into Tsunade as destructive energy. If these boulders are both large and come in large quantities, I could see Tsunade jumping and leaping on them while closing the distance.

Yeah, maybe I exaggerated too much with "stain in the dirt", but jumping on

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to close the distance to get to Hiruzen? You cannnot be serious. If she wants to take a direct hit that's a good tactic to employ.

Also, your counter for these rocks isn't going to work if it comes at her from above, it'd smash her into the ground and going with the flow of the technique would still only lead to her getting smashed into the ground.

And Tsunade isn't going to casually evade these when they're used, not with this scale.


I was iffy about this one though, it all depends on how bad the boulders smash her body when they hit and the angle he uses them on.

Adding on, I believe even old Hiruzen is too much for Tsunade because he can blind her with a katon while a clone of his creates a large number of giant shuriken. All the while another clone of Hiruzen's can infuse wind natured chakra to enhance the cutting ability of those giant shuriken.

This is true but while he does this, can't Tsunade assault him from behind while he is distracted by the giant slug and is being blinded by his own ninjutsu? It's a possibly IMO.

Yeah, but not all of Hiruzen's Nature Attacks are needed to take out Katsuyu, so there is always a clone open to watch Tsunade.

-Clones prevent him from getting assaulted by Tsunade while attacking.

 

[Touken]

What exactly does paralysis affect it's nerves I think? I assume cell division cannot fix? You can have that.

However

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There is your proof. She stated she changed her chakra to electricity and sent it into another persons nervous system. I see nothign stopping her from changing her chakra into electricity and channeling the electrical waves within herself.

There is no proof that she's able to have such finesse in controlling electrical signals to the point where she can individually affect her own cells and nervous system. All she did there was send electrical waves into Kabuto's system, something that doesn't take much skill seeing as anything affecting the nervous system would cause paralysis. Also, what Sasuke did was completely different; he

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, something Tsunade won't be able to do because she'll be completely paralysed at the time which would stop her from moulding chakra. She can only change her electrical signals (implying she has such finesse as in my first point) after she's been paralysed and by that time it'll be too late.

 

[Joshutsu]

There is no proof that she's able to have such finesse in controlling electrical signals to the point where she can individually affect her own cells and nervous system. Also, what Sasuke did was completely different; he

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, something Tsunade won't be able to do because she'll be completely paralysed at the time which would stop her from moulding chakra. She can only change her electrical signals (implying she has such finesse as in my first point) after she's been paralysed and by that time it'll be too late.

There's more proof leaning to the possibility she can with this scan than her not being able to. Her being paralysed for any extended period of time for starters is already impractical itself as the paralysis should end as the technique is over.

Sasuke? What? I didn't mention him.

Who says Tsunade has to wait until the raiton hits her to do it? Knowing fully well (if she cannot dodge it) that it's going to hit her she can use her chakra manipulation into electricity to protect herself from paralysis by using it to makesure her natural flow in her nervous system is maintained. I mean, someone with such intelligence fully well knowing that they would be paralysed would do that.

Also it's not just electrical signals

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[Curse Mark]

Tsunade's punch is going to knock enma out but the blunt side of the staff ramming into the nine tails didn't even make enma falter?
._.

 

[Joshutsu]

Tsunade's punch is going to knock enma out but the blunt side of the staff ramming into the nine tails didn't even make enma falter?
._.

Being in regular form and staff form are two different cases.

 

[Touken]

There's more proof leaning to the possibility she can with this scan than her not being able to. Her being paralysed for any extended period of time for starters is already impractical itself as the paralysis should end as the technique is over.

Keyword being possibility.
@bold, what makes you think that?

Sasuke? What? I didn't mention him.

Who says Tsunade has to wait until the raiton hits her to do it? Knowing fully well (if she cannot dodge it) that it's going to hit her she can use her chakra manipulation into electricity to protect herself from paralysis by using it to makesure her natural flow in her nervous system is maintained. I mean, someone with such intelligence fully well knowing that they would be paralysed would do that.

Because she wouldn't 'make sure her natural flow in her nervous system is maintained' before Hiruzen uses the technique. Has she got some sense of foresight?

Also it's not just electrical signals

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Yeah, it is just electrical signals. The emphasis on that sentence was 'are confused', meaning she can not only disrupt the electrical flow but she can also confuse her opponent's electrical signals.

 

[Joshutsu]

Keyword being possibility.
@bold, what makes you think that?


Because she wouldn't 'make sure her natural flow in her nervous system is maintained' before Hiruzen uses the technique. Has she got some sense of foresight?

Yeah, it is just electrical signals. The emphasis on that sentence was 'are confused', meaning she can not only disrupt the electrical flow but she can also confuse her opponent's electrical signals.

1. What makes you think she can't when she can already do all this? (let me find scan)

2. I'm pretty sure seeing a raiton attack coming towards you, that you would (this is even if she would not simply dodge it as its width is not very big. She's quick enough, as she did it to kabuto in an instant.

3. How could you gather that it is still electrical signals when he said 'no not just that ALL signals are confused.

If we are continuing this one aspect of the fight for the sole reason of 'i can't prove you wrong, you can't prove me wrong' it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Touken]

If we are continuing this one aspect of the fight for the sole reason of 'i can't prove you wrong, you can't prove me wrong' it doesn't make any sense.

Fair point, plus I've got college tomorrow and it's late here. Had fun having our little debate.

 

[Joshutsu]

Fair point, plus I've got college tomorrow and it's late here. Had fun having our little debate.

Oh you too? Though i'm sure it's a lot later for you than me seeing as your location says England ;o But yeah see you around

 

[Curse Mark]

Being in regular form and staff form are two different cases.

That they are, however in both cases staff form was being discussed.
You tried though.

 

[MickNerks]

People said Tsunade >>>>>> Hiruzen a long time.

What about now?

Can an Edo Hiruzen with no regen take out Tsunade?


100 meters, IC to kill, konoha crater.

Scenario 1: Hiruzen vs Tsunade - no summons

Scenario 2: Hiruzen vs Tsunade, both can summon.

Scenario 3: Hiruzen vs Tsunade + Sakura.

Scenario 4: Hiruzen vs Tsunade, Sakura, Shizune.

Bonus Scenario 5: Hiruzen vs Tsunade + Jiraiya ( Jman can only summon Bunta and the Sages )

Scenario 1: Hiruzen Low difficulty.
Guys lets not forget that hiruzen trained this little girl, he knows that she is a close combat fighter, and what tsunade doesn't have on her side are numbers, which hiruzen has with his shadow clones. He can easily drop a smoke bomb in the beginning of the match and create 3 clones so that she wont know which is the real one. Afterward, if they surround her and hit her from all angles with shadow shuriken, tsunade has no where to run, it which she will have to focus her time on healing. Meanwhile, hiruzen can use to clone to distract her while she is healing and us the original to summon a fuma shuriken and slice her in half from behind. Without katsuya there to put her back together, tsunade will bleed out or hiruzen could just finish her.


Scenario 2: Hiruzen Low Diff
With enma by his side this becomes a lot easier. Some of you guys are delusional if you think tsunade is strong enough to break/crack diamond hard substances. Nothing in the Manga/databook supports that. Hiruzen can once again create 2-3 shadow clones, each having a clone of enma in their possession (as enma can also clone himself) and go to work. Katsuya isn't really a factor as she isn't fast enough to keep up with monkey trio. Hurizen could use clones to double team katsuya with a water and lightning stream combo, which most likely would K.O her as her body is mostly liquid, while the 3rd clone distract tsunade by sacrificing himself in cqc. After, katsuya is gone simply lock tsunade up in diamond prison and fry her with a fire and wind combo.

Scenario 3: Hiruzen Mid-High diff
If Hiruzen creates a smoke bomb and creates 2 clones he can send those clones in too fight tsunade and sakura in hand to hand. Now even though both clone will probally be defeated, in the midst of battle they could lace sakura and tsunade with explosive tags and the original Hiruzen could blow both their limbs off. though tsunade would be able to heal from such a attack, sakura would be fatally wounded and probally unconscious, which will leave hiruzen to finish off tsunade before she can fully recover. Katsuya once again could take a water-lightning combo from separate clones which would eliminate her as well.



Honestly, I think ive made my point. IMO hiruzen is versatile enough to win all these scenario's, except the last one. I cant see how he can beat SM jiraiya, Sage toads, gamabunta, tsunade, and katsuya with the feats that he has shown thus far. Im not gonna say its not possible, but I cant personally think of a way.

So yeah, that's what I came up with.