[VS] SM Naruto vs. Itachi and Kisame

[Misconception]

This battle comes down to if Naruto starts long range if he does he wins if not he loses...

 

[makosheva7]

woah, a full blown debate going on here

 

[Apêx1]

Lmao its too long for me as well,
and the funny thing is that we both still agree on naruto losing,

and @bold - Lol, my claims are all backed up by manga scans, they arent fallacious at all

Alright, Lol. Subjective interpretations I guess.

@Bold - Lol what, naruto can easily sense amaterasus built up, and block the LoS through smoke bombs, he can also use mas dust cloud to counter amaterasu,
amaterasu has a huge chakra built up as seen how nagato was able to sense well before the flames spawned, therefore allowing naruto more than enough time to counter it

and whether the normal sharingan genjutsu has a built up or not,

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and having one second for an openning is certainly not enough for the duo, thats for sure,

Once again, smoke bomb aren't stopping Amateratsu's travelling path. Amatertasu follows whatever the eye is gazing upon. Soe even if it goes in the first thing in his LoS, it won't automatically drop to the floor. It will keep going to the furthest point in his LoS, which is Naruto. And yes, Amateratsu is countered if Naruto isn't in genjutsu.

and i dont see why youre bringing up GSB, when i havent addressed it at all, and its irrelevant in our debate, the thing that ur wrong at, is genjutsu followed by totsuka blitz, thats certainly not happening here

Fair enough.

Lol this post is wrong, very wrong,
first of all, if itachi focuses on putting ma and pa under a genjutsu then hes just wasting his time, since he would be focused entirely on casting the genjutsu on the frogs, therefore leaving him vulnerable for narutos attacks, not to mention that naruto and the other toad would be capable of breaking the victim out of genjutsu with ease,
naruto has SM sensing and now with his intel he is more than capable of avoidding eye contact befoore itachi casts a genjutsu on him

your statement is based entirely on ifs,

No it isn't, Lol. Nothing suggests Naruto can sense disruptions in chakra when there's no build up of chakra. Ma and Pa cannot leave Naruto's shoulders, thus they cannot make contact with each other due to their extremely tiny arm/hand span. More so, once one of them is in genjutsu, all Itachi needs to do is have the toad stick its tongue out from one side of Naruto's head and out the other. Kid Obito could fight while controlling the Kyuubi with ease, I don't see how Itachi is any different, if not more adept. Genjutsu happens instantaneously and control is immediate, as shown with Manda and Sasuke during C0. And no, they only need a second of eye contact to be under his control, you are severely underrating his genjutsu prowess if you believe it takes concentration to put them under genjutsu.

Ifs are what VS debate are about, I am not going to say Totsuka gg, I will say if he does x, y will happen. Sasuke using crows for genjutsu is canon, let alone the fact it was done in Naruto with cautiousness.

Lmao, he has kurama cooperating with him, thats one of the best genjutsu countering assets one could have,

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and for the millionth time, you still havent addressed this point, but naruto has SM sensing that enables him to sense the built up and be wary of any oncoming genjutsu therefore he can just evade eye contact, and naruto having the clones means that itachi wont be able to distinguish between them, and if he focuses on one certain clone then the other entitiies such as summons, and other clones, as well as the real naruto can attack him with ease,

I have addressed everything in that. Clones being differentiated by Ma and Pa's chakra signatures was already conceded by you, I don't know why you brought that up again. Genjutsu happens the instant he looks into Naruto's eyes, what you are saying is the equivalent of saying, if Naruto senses Kakashi's eye build up for Kamui, he can react accordingly to counter, when he doesn't have that kind of time, since the second chakra build-up occurs, Naruto is in the Kamui distortion. The Kamui distortion requires chakra build-up just like Tsukiyomi, yet Obito, who has a sharingan, could not react to it [

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]. More so, do you really believe Kabuto, who had a perfect SM would choose to close his eyes when he could sense any genjutsu attempt and look away? Lol, yea.. no. Even Sasuke, with a sharingan, ended up getting caught in Itachi's crow fromation genjutsu, which is nigh-unavoidable [

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]. More so, that was merely a clone putting Sasuke in genjutsu, the original was still watching him, meaning the vicitim is vulnerable to any jutsu Itachi decides to use, or simply the clone slicing Naruto when he's formed next to him and cast genjutsu. You are severely underestimating genjutsu if you think looking away or sensing will help, when Kabuto contradicts this. Real Naruto as distinguished, you have already conceded this, since any clone using transformation to mask the Ma and Pa on his shoulders would have a single chakra pathway, while Naruto would have three since there are three separate entities. Large summons are put under control and used against Naruto. So once Bunta is in Itachi's possession, Naruto will have to defend against continuous Suiton bullets and genjutsu's simultaneously.

How is it deductive fallacy????
i have used scans to explain each and every attack,, and common powerscaling should also be eviddennt enough that COR can bust Ribcage,
@Bold - you have no proof that V2 could have tanked COR, and even if it could, ur only focusing on V2 pushing naruto back, furthermore madara resorting to V3 is not based on deductive fallacy, its common sense since his ribcage was clearly not enough to tank the attack, and he obviously noted the attack rubbing off his susanoos layer, therefore he resorted to usiing a stronger susanoo to push naruto back,
whether madara wasnted to attack the SA afterwards was irrelevant since ribcage was still not enough to tank COR, especially when the jutsu did not even explode, and rubbed the layer upon mere contact

Deductive fallacy was suggesting you saying because he used v3 instead of v2 to push away Naruto, only v3 is a viable option, when that isn't the case. @bold You have no proof that v2 can be busted by COR, when it tanked such an explosion formed by different elements with negative difficulty [

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]. COR's feats are lacking, if anything. v2 takes no damage from COR in the same way it took no damage from this explosion radius. Already said.. Ribcage isn't enough, lay off that argument. v2 does the job, that is all.

your example of Juubito is clearly just stupid, since my logic is not based on that, especially when we clearly saw COR damaging ribcage before the attack even took into effect,

Fair enough.

I never stated that v3 tanked COR, it was just used to push naruto awway since ribcage wasnt enough to tank it, thats alll there is to it,

@Bold - you have seen the light,,
however I am not underrating Kabutos suiton nor am i overrating COR, the difference in DC between both of them is still quite evident,

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and the

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this is all the result of a normal rasengan, COR is obviously much stronger,
if you seriously think that kabutos suiton (which is infused with SM) could damage juubito to this extent, then NO, the gap between a normal rasengan and kabutos suiton is immense let alone COR

moreover, ur claim of V2 tanking kirin is just absurd
especially when Danzos fuuton blew a hole in V3 (a superior susanoo) when the fuuton is no wherre near the level of kirrin, as we both have established that, Kirin would have most likely resulted in itachi getting killed, had he used V3 susanoo, the only susanooo of itachi that can tank an attack of this magnitude is V4, anything less would get crushed

Fair enough.

Look, you are clinging too hard on small things. Say v3 was what allowed Itachi to survive, instead of v2. What now? Nothing, because you have 0 evidence or implications whatsoever to claim v4 was used. It was shown to take time to form. If you want to say only v4 took time to form instead of v3, then fine by me. But if you are telling me he went from base to v4 in 1/1000th of a second when it was shown that the time frame between v2 and v4 is a text bubble which is 1 second at the very least, then what's there to argue? You are simply in denial if you are willing to say v4 was used because that's how you want it to be. Inb4 Kirin>Baku suction Futon so it was v4. No, that's completely differet because the Susano wasn't completely destroyed, hell, Sasuke wasn't even exposed.. There was still the entire skeletal part of the Susano in tact [

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], not even the ribcage. This already proves that Kirin is on a completely different level, not only because it was able to bypass all layers of Susano in one strike, but because it knocked down Itachi and destroyed his entire v3 Susano, rather than simply expose it from its weakest point. Show implications of it being v4 or stop arguing this, I am not going to concede saying it is a v4 when all implications are on my side, while you are basing this on your own subjective logic.

COFRS is comparable if not then its most likely superior to Kirin, seeing how large the magnitude of the attack is, and kirin still busted V4, COFRS is doing the same, regardless of yata, which lacks feats therefore the best it could have is the durability of V4, (not to mention that itachi cant maintain it for long periods anyways)

No, the blast radius was shown to be large, but there's nothing to compare it with to show its magnitude. It's clearly stronger than FRS, but saying it's extremely insane when you are comparing the explosion's size to small debris next to it is naive. Kirin busted v3, not v4. One thing I just found is the fact that FRS is weak to repulsive forces. How do I know this? Because Deva's Shinra Tensei repels, and an extremely small magnitude repulsion was able to completely disperse a senjutsu enhanced FRS [

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]. What does Yata do? It repels attacks. It repelled the force generated by the Hydra heads completely, making their heads bend at extreme angles, showing insane energy output in its repulsion. Now you will probably claim Yata can't repel in the same way a small magnitude ST does, of which I will laugh at. Yata is FRS's nightmare, because it repels. Kirin>COFRS, which is dispersed by Yata.

Cool, no problems then
There is a difference between ribcage and V2 susanoo in terms of durability but the difference isnnt as vast as ur suggesting

,

Okay.

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its not just a skeletal susanoo which is V2,

Skeletal is still there, and it was blown open from the back, Susano's weakest point.

I am well aware of the the possible time taken to awaken the susanoo,

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, and him introducing his technique also enabed him to do this in time,
furthermore, based on power scaling and common sense, no susanoo bar V4 or possibly V3 is enough to survive itachi from an attack of this magniitude,

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The downwards arm movement isn't comparable to the time it took for Itachi to form Susano. Especially when what we saw was from v2 to v4, whereas from base to v4 would take even longer. As I said, the most I will go to is a v3, saying v4 on your side will need some implication or evidence to back it up, since there are more implications for my argument than yours, by a long run. Yes, he lost it, but it doesn't matter since it was a v3 and Kirin is an insanely powerful attack.

at the very least the susanoo that enabled itachi to survive was V3,
however ur point @Bold about the susanoo being displayed is stil irrelevant, since itachii clearly lost his susanoo after getting hit by kirin,

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, therefore that doesnt imply anything at all

Okay, I will just concede that point and go with a v3 since we will both be in denial and any arguing would be futile. V3 it is.

the only thing thats possible is the time taken which i agree with you on, however susanoo just requires the amount of chakra that the user pumps in, the techniques activation is nigh instant, as it stems directly from the brain, whether be it V4 or ribcage,

It isn't nigh instant, never is it nigh instant. The chakra needs to form in the same way v2 ended up forming the muscular aspects. In the same way Madara stabalised his Susano. Etc. You get what I am saying, the thought is nigh instant, but the intended Susano isn't, it takes time to form as displayed many times in the manga.

I concede, Kirin has a larger blast radius to a normal FRS
however COFRS is still comparable if not then most likely superior to Kirin

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that is

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notice the blast radius,
hell it could be debatable on COFRS being even stronger due to the technique damaging on a cellular level, they both busted the mountains, and based on feats, and by noticing the AOE of TBB, COFRS and kirin, its clear as day that TBB and COFRS are above kirin,

Alright.
No, you have nothing to base this off of. Demonstrate to me, what you are basing off that explosion's AOE on, and then I will see it from your view point. Until then, all I see is a distant FRS's explosion with nothing to base it's range or AOE off of. Don't see how you drew out a comparison with a TBB, you could clearly see mountains in the TBB's explosion AOE, you cannot see anything in the COFRS's AOE. And no, COFRS cuts and damages on a cellular level via chakra. Kirin electrifies, cuts, burns and destroys with sheer force via nature. TBB>Kirn>COFRS. I really don't see what you are basing your COFRS AOE on, no matter how hard I try. It's in the distance, and you can see one side of its explosion and base it off of nothing, yet tell me it's comparable to TBB. Unless I am missing something here since all I see is the bottom right panel, the deduction is idiotic.

No because these posts are gettiing awfully long thats why
Hirudora clearly damaged madara moore than enough to break his control over the mokuton,
had the susanoo tanked it, then the mokuton grip wouldve never loosened,
and madara had scruff marks on his body not his face,

Nope. Madara had marks on his face before the explosion means he probably had marks on his clothes too before the explosion. Had hirudora affected him, his face would either have more marks on it, or differently placed marks. Unless you are saying his face was unaffected and his clothes were. It has been stated many times that Mokuton is hard to control for people who don't have a life force like Hashirama's. The further you go from the Mokuton, the further your influence over it should be since your chakra connection is weakening. Hirudora pushed v3 far away, thus I will stick to my opinion that it wasn't able to destroy Madara due to: identical marks on his face implying no contact, Mokuton's control being loosened due to chakra weakening between himself and the trees he instilled life into and Kisame surviving a Hirudora in base.

Actually it does mean the same thing,
Rinnegan can still see chakra, be it madara or nagatos,

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and

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and the

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Okay, you are just stating similarities and aren't stating why the Sharingan, which could see through Kabuto's cave to scan for chakra, and through the floor to scan for mines, is any different than seeing through gaseous particles which don't compare in 'thickness'.

furthermore this whole chakra signatture thing seems to be just weird,
itachi may be able to see chakra, but the smoke bombs enable naruto to hide his presense as the smoke will pretty much act as a layer to prevent itachi from using amaterasu,

sharingan has never shown to be able to see through objects, thats just fanfic, thats the byakugans ability not the sharingan, all the sharingan has been able to do is see chakra,, nothing more than that

I have shown it has the ability to see through objects already, but I'll put it in spoilers to make it easier to access.

Spoiler

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"How did you know where the mines where" (since they are beneath the floor) "My eyes can see chakra"/

Spoiler

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Saw through the stone in the cave, once again, sees through objects. So no, it isn't fan-fic.
Based on this, I can conclude that Itachi can differentiate the difference in Ma, Pa and Naruto with his Sharingan distinguishing the chakra signatures, and then firing off Amateratsu accordingly. Even if the smoke is in his LoS, he still sees Naruto and Pa, so he can still fire Amateratsu due to the fact that it travels at whatever he gazes upon.

Ok, i hate getting into size arguments anyways,

Lol, fair enough. That means Naruto's clones are wiped out as I said before.

The entire bold is just laughable
first of all amaterasu is still countered by dust cloud whether you like it or not, meaning that with the LoS blocked its not landing,
secondly itachi using tsukuyomi and amateasru through mulitple crows is just fanfic, when hypothetical healthy itachi was drained heavily after using eiither of the two,

tsukuyomi may occur in seconds but its not less than a second meaning that the biijuu can break the user free, and i have already showed that all the effects would be completley nullfied once the genjutsu is broken,
furthermore naruto can evade eye contact anyways

I disproved this, so no. I don't know where you read this. I never claimed crows can use genjutsu, I claimed he can put a seal on any of the crows in the same subtle way he did on Sasuke. After he has done the seal, any point in which Naruto makes eye contact with that crow, means an Amateratsu will be fired off like it was against Obito. Amateratsu doesn't drain Itachi, not when he rapid fired it on Sasuke and used it in his fire ball jutsu.

It occurs upon instant eye contact like normal genjutsu is. I have already proved Kamui, which is an MS technique, works the second it is inititated as seen when he Kamui'd BM Naruto speed, Gyuki, and was too quick for Obito's knowing. Tsukiyomi was as fast as normal sharingan genjutsu, so that implies it is instant. SM Kabuto wouldn't have closed his eyes shut had the "look away when build up is sensed" argument been viable. Based on what would Tsukiyomi's effects be nullified if it was to be broken? It only induced mental and spiritual breakdown, no physical pain. This means even if he's broken out of it, he won't forget what happened in the Genjutsu world, thus will still be on the floor with a spiritual breakdown. Anyways, it isn't being broken out of.

Danzo still used KA on Mifune,
every genjutsu is breakable, hell even IT is breakable by a rinnegan, and IT >> Tsukuyomi
genjutsu is breakable by anyone with the same dojutsu or a superior dojutsu,
sasuke wasnt in this category so the only exception that made it plausible was his relationship with itachi,

KA is still stated to be the strongest genjutsu, superior to Tsukuyomi and if KA is broken, then tsukuyomi is also breakable,

the logic you are using is just flawed since it was stated that only gentle fist can counter kidomarus webs, however the brothers still countered it quite well through amaterasu

Incorrect. Anyhow, you are proving my point by bringing up IT, which was only counterable by another user of the same eye. It implies Tsukiyomi always has restrictions, whether it be bloodline or Dojutsu. Naruto being a perfect Jin doesn't mean he can break out of IT, which is further proof of contradiction in your arguments.
Tsukiyomi is breakable by bloodline, and only the elite of it. Sasuke broke out by his own ability, not because of Itachi's relationship. You're basing that off of nothing other than your own arguments benefit. Only Uchiha bloodlines break out based on DB, Itachi, Kakashi's failure in breaking out and Sasuke's success in breaking out. It's clear as day, yet you remain in denial in order not to concede a significant point.

Nope, that's a naive way of think. Saying because KA has the most realistic genjutsu, thus the greatest genjutsu, is able to represent any feat of any weaker genjutsu, including immunity to resistance like Tsukiyomi, is Non Sequitur. You are basing that off of nothing. Only because TBB is superior to Raikir, doesn't mean TBB has Raiki's penetrative properties. Same applies to this scenario. Only because one genjutsu is more realistic and superior, doesn't imply it has the characteristic and traits of every inferior genjutsu. Not only that, but the confirmation bias is real. You claim that the no limits fallacy of Neji's Gentle fist being the only thing to counter the webs is relatable to this, when it's hype was identical to that of Yata and Totsuka. The difference is vast. Those two have no limitations on them, meaning multi-dimensional busting attacks should be repelled because there's no limit. However, Tsukiyomi is claimed to be unbreakable by anyone without Uchiha blood. Right now, it is no limits fallacy. Itachi later stated it, and when Kakashi who has a sharingan attempted to see through the genjutsu, he wasn't capable of it. Now it's no longer no limits fallacy, or implies that the DB was wrong. However, against Sasuke, an Uchiha, he was able to resist it. This means the DB and statements is fully supported by manga evidence, and has limits to it as well. So it's not a no-limits falacy scenario, thus you cannot disprove it, hence the confirmation bias.

 

[ARGUS]

Alright, Lol. Subjective interpretations I guess.

Once again, smoke bomb aren't stopping Amateratsu's travelling path. Amatertasu follows whatever the eye is gazing upon. Soe even if it goes in the first thing in his LoS, it won't automatically drop to the floor. It will keep going to the furthest point in his LoS, which is Naruto. And yes, Amateratsu is countered if Naruto isn't in genjutsu.

Smoke bombs block the LoS meaning that they provide cover to Naruto,
Itachi cant set naruto ablaze when he is hidden behind,

its like sayinh that itachi can use amaterasu on naruto when he is behind a rock that is completely covering him, the jutsu simply doesnt operate like that,

however, you admitting that amaterasu can be countered means that there really is no need to prolong this discussion

Fair enough.

No it isn't, Lol. Nothing suggests Naruto can sense disruptions in chakra when there's no build up of chakra. Ma and Pa cannot leave Naruto's shoulders, thus they cannot make contact with each other due to their extremely tiny arm/hand span. More so, once one of them is in genjutsu, all Itachi needs to do is have the toad stick its tongue out from one side of Naruto's head and out the other. Kid Obito could fight while controlling the Kyuubi with ease, I don't see how Itachi is any different, if not more adept. Genjutsu happens instantaneously and control is immediate, as shown with Manda and Sasuke during C0. And no, they only need a second of eye contact to be under his control, you are severely underrating his genjutsu prowess if you believe it takes concentration to put them under genjutsu.

@Bold - Wrong,

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and was also able to

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, and also enabled naruto to locate the source of the rods chakra,
Moreover, ma&Pa dont need to go away from narutos shoulders, i dont see why thats even necessary,
and you are also wrong about genjutsu not having a built up when its clear

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, and naruto can sense this built up through his SM sensing quite effectively and be wary of the oncoming genjutsu therefore avoiding eye contact,

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as well, meaning that naruto does the same here,

any other 3T genjutsu regardless of its properties is just being broken by partner method with ease, and naruto wont be affected by the 3T genjutsus effects

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Genjutsu is not happening here, due to the fact that any powerful genjutsus built up wil be sensed, and 3T genjutsu is just broken rather quickly,

Deductive fallacy was suggesting you saying because he used v3 instead of v2 to push away Naruto, only v3 is a viable option, when that isn't the case. @bold You have no proof that v2 can be busted by COR, when it tanked such an explosion formed by different elements with negative difficulty [

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]. COR's feats are lacking, if anything. v2 takes no damage from COR in the same way it took no damage from this explosion radius. Already said.. Ribcage isn't enough, lay off that argument. v2 does the job, that is all.

@Bold - Ok
however, V2 Susanoo lacks much durability feats, i never stated that V2 will be busted, but it would at the very least be damaged,
not to mention that

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, so V2 tanking COR is debatable
however i would agree with you that V2 susanoo can still be used to push naruto away,

Fair enough.

Fair enough.

ok

Look, you are clinging too hard on small things. Say v3 was what allowed Itachi to survive, instead of v2. What now? Nothing, because you have 0 evidence or implications whatsoever to claim v4 was used. It was shown to take time to form. If you want to say only v4 took time to form instead of v3, then fine by me. But if you are telling me he went from base to v4 in 1/1000th of a second when it was shown that the time frame between v2 and v4 is a text bubble which is 1 second at the very least, then what's there to argue? You are simply in denial if you are willing to say v4 was used because that's how you want it to be. Inb4 Kirin>Baku suction Futon so it was v4. No, that's completely differet because the Susano wasn't completely destroyed, hell, Sasuke wasn't even exposed.. There was still the entire skeletal part of the Susano in tact [

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], not even the ribcage. This already proves that Kirin is on a completely different level, not only because it was able to bypass all layers of Susano in one strike, but because it knocked down Itachi and destroyed his entire v3 Susano, rather than simply expose it from its weakest point. Show implications of it being v4 or stop arguing this, I am not going to concede saying it is a v4 when all implications are on my side, while you are basing this on your own subjective logic.

@Bold -

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, how about that then
Susanoo still stems from the brain and the level of susanoo just depends on the amount of chakra that the user pumps in-order to activate his susanoo to the next level, furthermore it wasnt 1/1000th of a second since

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this isnt subjective logic, when the only susanoo that could enable itachi to surive is either V3 or V4,
any other would have had him killed,
the only reason i had argued was because of ur claim that V2 tanked it, which was wrong, i am fine with you considering whether it was V3 or V4, since we dont have much evidence to precisely claim whicch susanoo was destroyed,

No, the blast radius was shown to be large, but there's nothing to compare it with to show its magnitude. It's clearly stronger than FRS, but saying it's extremely insane when you are comparing the explosion's size to small debris next to it is naive. Kirin busted v3, not v4. One thing I just found is the fact that FRS is weak to repulsive forces. How do I know this? Because Deva's Shinra Tensei repels, and an extremely small magnitude repulsion was able to completely disperse a senjutsu enhanced FRS [

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].

FRS was repelled by ST because ST dispels ninjutsu,
furthermore FRS doesnt even have much of a pushing force, it has an explosive damage at cellular level,
Kakashis raikiri was also dispelled by ST rather easily, and so was amaterasu,
just because ST has a property of dispelling ninjutsu doesnt mean that the jutsu it has repelled is weak

What does Yata do? It repels attacks. It repelled the force generated by the Hydra heads completely, making their heads bend at extreme angles, showing insane energy output in its repulsion. Now you will probably claim Yata can't repel in the same way a small magnitude ST does, of which I will laugh at. Yata is FRS's nightmare, because it repels. Kirin>COFRS, which is dispersed by Yata.

thats provided if itachi can maintain something as chakra taxing as V4,
if Itachi does end up using his V4 susanoo equipped with yata, then all naruto has to do is outlast itachi,
furthermore when i claimed that V4 susanoo would be busted by COFRS, i clearly meant the susanoo itself, i ignoreed yata due to its lack of feats,

however with ur above reasoning i am still confused on how that proves on Kirin being superior to COFRS???

Okay.

Skeletal is still there, and it was blown open from the back, Susano's weakest point.

Yep
only the V3 susanoo layer was blew open,

The downwards arm movement isn't comparable to the time it took for Itachi to form Susano. Especially when what we saw was from v2 to v4, whereas from base to v4 would take even longer. As I said, the most I will go to is a v3, saying v4 on your side will need some implication or evidence to back it up, since there are more implications for my argument than yours, by a long run. Yes, he lost it, but it doesn't matter since it was a v3 and Kirin is an insanely powerful attack.

I am fine with claiming that V3 was used, since itachi was still down on the ground without his susanoo after kirin was executed,
the downwards arm movement however clearly allowed itachi to use his susanoo, otherwise no character has shown instant reflexes thats just unheard of,

Okay, I will just concede that point and go with a v3 since we will both be in denial and any arguing would be futile. V3 it is.

Lmao, i am fine with that,
after looking into it more, i beleive that iit was V3 that was used,

It isn't nigh instant, never is it nigh instant. The chakra needs to form in the same way v2 ended up forming the muscular aspects. In the same way Madara stabalised his Susano. Etc. You get what I am saying, the thought is nigh instant, but the intended Susano isn't, it takes time to form as displayed many times in the manga.

The susanoo activation itself is nigh instant, seeing how itachi managed to protect himself from kirin, thats what i was talking about,
i am well aware that itachis thought (meaning his reflexes) arent instant

Nope. Madara had marks on his face before the explosion means he probably had marks on his clothes too before the explosion. Had hirudora affected him, his face would either have more marks on it, or differently placed marks. Unless you are saying his face was unaffected and his clothes were. It has been stated many times that Mokuton is hard to control for people who don't have a life force like Hashirama's. The further you go from the Mokuton, the further your influence over it should be since your chakra connection is weakening. Hirudora pushed v3 far away, thus I will stick to my opinion that it wasn't able to destroy Madara due to: identical marks on his face implying no contact, Mokuton's control being loosened due to chakra weakening between himself and the trees he instilled life into and Kisame surviving a Hirudora in base.

Hirudora busted V3 susanoo,
if u disagree than answer these questions

then what exactly happened to madaras V3, ??
why exactly did madara just stop ???
why exactly did his mokuton jutsu weakened??
why exactly didnt he continue his attack ??
what was the result of the onslaught between V3 and Hirudora,??

if yu can answer all these questions with a valid proof, then i might consider ur claim,
but the only thing that it leads to is that madaras V3 got destroyed

if you still disagree thann comment on

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, and we'll discuss it there, this debate is already too long to begin with, i dont want to make it even longer

Okay, you are just stating similarities and aren't stating why the Sharingan, which could see through Kabuto's cave to scan for chakra, and through the floor to scan for mines, is any different than seeing through gaseous particles which don't compare in 'thickness'.

Both of them can see chakra
if the rinnegan failed to locate even gamabunta after dust cloud was used, then the sharingan wont be able to locate a much smaller entity either

I have shown it has the ability to see through objects already, but I'll put it in spoilers to make it easier to access.

Spoiler

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"How did you know where the mines where" (since they are beneath the floor) "My eyes can see chakra"/

Spoiler

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Saw through the stone in the cave, once again, sees through objects. So no, it isn't fan-fic.
Based on this, I can conclude that Itachi can differentiate the difference in Ma, Pa and Naruto with his Sharingan distinguishing the chakra signatures, and then firing off Amateratsu accordingly. Even if the smoke is in his LoS, he still sees Naruto and Pa, so he can still fire Amateratsu due to the fact that it travels at whatever he gazes upon.

The sharingan saw through chakra,
dust cloud blocks the LoS meaning that sharingan wont be able to see through it at all, meanimng that chakra isnt seen,
i dont see why thats soo hard to understand
ma and pa would be completely hidden behind the dust cloud

I disproved this, so no. I don't know where you read this. I never claimed crows can use genjutsu, I claimed he can put a seal on any of the crows in the same subtle way he did on Sasuke. After he has done the seal, any point in which Naruto makes eye contact with that crow, means an Amateratsu will be fired off like it was against Obito. Amateratsu doesn't drain Itachi, not when he rapid fired it on Sasuke and used it in his fire ball jutsu.

amaterasu is still being sensed and the LoS is still being blocked therefore the jutsu is contered
whether itachi usees the technique through the crow or not, naruto still has the abiility to sense the jutsu and counter it,
Obito lacks the sensing to be able to decipher amaterasu therefore ur claim is invalid

It occurs upon instant eye contact like normal genjutsu is. I have already proved Kamui, which is an MS technique, works the second it is inititated as seen when he Kamui'd BM Naruto speed, Gyuki, and was too quick for Obito's knowing. Tsukiyomi was as fast as normal sharingan genjutsu, so that implies it is instant. SM Kabuto wouldn't have closed his eyes shut had the "look away when build up is sensed" argument been viable. Based on what would Tsukiyomi's effects be nullified if it was to be broken? It only induced mental and spiritual breakdown, no physical pain. This means even if he's broken out of it, he won't forget what happened in the Genjutsu world, thus will still be on the floor with a spiritual breakdown. Anyways, it isn't being broken out of.

First of all Kamui =/= Genjutsu
secondly kabuto had completely sealed off his vision, so i dont see what yur saying about kabuto closing his eyes??
Izanami doesnt requrie eye contact as it was clear otherwise kabuto wouldnt have gotten caught,
tsukuyomi would be broken out of the moment kurama notices naruto is in a genjutsu, and would therefore provide the disruption in the flow of the genjutsus charka and break it,


anyways this debate is getting wayy too long for me,

 

[RedShadow]

Smoke bombs block the LoS meaning that they provide cover to Naruto,
Itachi cant set naruto ablaze when he is hidden behind,

its like sayinh that itachi can use amaterasu on naruto when he is behind a rock that is completely covering him, the jutsu simply doesnt operate like that,

however, you admitting that amaterasu can be countered means that there really is no need to prolong this discussion



@Bold - Wrong,

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and was also able to

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, and also enabled naruto to locate the source of the rods chakra,
Moreover, ma&Pa dont need to go away from narutos shoulders, i dont see why thats even necessary,
and you are also wrong about genjutsu not having a built up when its clear

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, and naruto can sense this built up through his SM sensing quite effectively and be wary of the oncoming genjutsu therefore avoiding eye contact,

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as well, meaning that naruto does the same here,

any other 3T genjutsu regardless of its properties is just being broken by partner method with ease, and naruto wont be affected by the 3T genjutsus effects

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Genjutsu is not happening here, due to the fact that any powerful genjutsus built up wil be sensed, and 3T genjutsu is just broken rather quickly,


@Bold - Ok
however, V2 Susanoo lacks much durability feats, i never stated that V2 will be busted, but it would at the very least be damaged,
not to mention that

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, so V2 tanking COR is debatable
however i would agree with you that V2 susanoo can still be used to push naruto away,


ok


@Bold -

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, how about that then
Susanoo still stems from the brain and the level of susanoo just depends on the amount of chakra that the user pumps in-order to activate his susanoo to the next level, furthermore it wasnt 1/1000th of a second since

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this isnt subjective logic, when the only susanoo that could enable itachi to surive is either V3 or V4,
any other would have had him killed,
the only reason i had argued was because of ur claim that V2 tanked it, which was wrong, i am fine with you considering whether it was V3 or V4, since we dont have much evidence to precisely claim whicch susanoo was destroyed,


FRS was repelled by ST because ST dispels ninjutsu,
furthermore FRS doesnt even have much of a pushing force, it has an explosive damage at cellular level,
Kakashis raikiri was also dispelled by ST rather easily, and so was amaterasu,
just because ST has a property of dispelling ninjutsu doesnt mean that the jutsu it has repelled is weak



thats provided if itachi can maintain something as chakra taxing as V4,
if Itachi does end up using his V4 susanoo equipped with yata, then all naruto has to do is outlast itachi,
furthermore when i claimed that V4 susanoo would be busted by COFRS, i clearly meant the susanoo itself, i ignoreed yata due to its lack of feats,

however with ur above reasoning i am still confused on how that proves on Kirin being superior to COFRS???


Yep
only the V3 susanoo layer was blew open,


I am fine with claiming that V3 was used, since itachi was still down on the ground without his susanoo after kirin was executed,
the downwards arm movement however clearly allowed itachi to use his susanoo, otherwise no character has shown instant reflexes thats just unheard of,



Lmao, i am fine with that,
after looking into it more, i beleive that iit was V3 that was used,



The susanoo activation itself is nigh instant, seeing how itachi managed to protect himself from kirin, thats what i was talking about,
i am well aware that itachis thought (meaning his reflexes) arent instant


Hirudora busted V3 susanoo,
if u disagree than answer these questions

then what exactly happened to madaras V3, ??
why exactly did madara just stop ???
why exactly did his mokuton jutsu weakened??
why exactly didnt he continue his attack ??
what was the result of the onslaught between V3 and Hirudora,??

if yu can answer all these questions with a valid proof, then i might consider ur claim,
but the only thing that it leads to is that madaras V3 got destroyed

if you still disagree thann comment on

You must be registered for see links

, and we'll discuss it there, this debate is already too long to begin with, i dont want to make it even longer



Both of them can see chakra
if the rinnegan failed to locate even gamabunta after dust cloud was used, then the sharingan wont be able to locate a much smaller entity either


The sharingan saw through chakra,
dust cloud blocks the LoS meaning that sharingan wont be able to see through it at all, meanimng that chakra isnt seen,
i dont see why thats soo hard to understand
ma and pa would be completely hidden behind the dust cloud


amaterasu is still being sensed and the LoS is still being blocked therefore the jutsu is contered
whether itachi usees the technique through the crow or not, naruto still has the abiility to sense the jutsu and counter it,
Obito lacks the sensing to be able to decipher amaterasu therefore ur claim is invalid


First of all Kamui =/= Genjutsu
secondly kabuto had completely sealed off his vision, so i dont see what yur saying about kabuto closing his eyes??
Izanami doesnt requrie eye contact as it was clear otherwise kabuto wouldnt have gotten caught,
tsukuyomi would be broken out of the moment kurama notices naruto is in a genjutsu, and would therefore provide the disruption in the flow of the genjutsus charka and break it,


anyways this debate is getting wayy too long for me,

Doton - Wall of Text no Jutsu!