[VS] SM Madara vs EMS Madara and SM Hashirama

[KidGamer65]

1. Getting both Rinnegans increases chakra potency (meaning it strengthens whatever chakra one already has.) Determining the boost Madara gets from both Rinnegans based of JJ Madara before and after he gets his second Rinnegan wouldn't be an accurate comparison. If I used numbers:

Madara's chakra pre-Jinchuuriki=100
Madara's chakra after becoming JJ=200



Let's say being an original wielder of the Rinnegan strengthens chakra by a 2x boost. 100x2=200, but 200x2=400. See why the difference between JJ Madara w/ 1 eye vs JJ Madara w/ both eyes >>> the difference between SM Madara w/ 1 eye vs SM Madara w/ both eyes?

What you are saying doesn't make sense. The difference between both before the boost is a factor of 2. If Pre Jin Madara got 2x stronger, then Post Jin Madara will get 2x stronger and vice versa because they are both getting the same boost. Only difference is, one is stronger post boost.

2. Then there's the fact that Madara received two power-ups in between the versions of him you are talking about (attaining a second Rinnegan as well as absorbing the Shinju) so you can't attribute his increase in power only to Rinnegan.

Except I can just take One Eyed Shinju Madara and compare him to Two Eyed Shinju Madara. That's a 2x boost in strength for both with no extra boost taken into account. (And no, I'm not saying it's actually a 2x boost)

3. And how specifically are you comparing JJ Madara before and after he gets his second Rinnegan? If it's based off the scale of his CT, that wouldn't be an accurate comparison considering we have no idea how strong his CT would be before getting the second Rinnegan (ignoring the fact that he can't actually perform the jutsu with one eye.) You can't base it off his usage of Limbo before and after getting the second Rinnegan, that's only a 4x boost because Madara could make 1 Limbo with 1 Rinnegan+SM, but make 4 Limbos after getting Juubi's chakra+absorbing Shinju+second Rinnegan.

This is the only part you have a point on, the bold is still wrong though. One Eyed Shinju Madara made 1. 2 eyed Shinju Madara can make 5. Thus if we were to base his strength increase off of Limbo alone, we'd come to the conclusion that he got 5x stronger.

4. How can you definitively prove that DMS Kakashi's Susanoo would tank Shinsuusenju+12 giant BDs with Susanoo blades?

Madara's PS at VoTE (not full sized) and SS were both in that explosion and managed to protect the user from the damage. Rikudo's Chakra>>>EMS Madara's regular chakra. If Kakashi's Susanoo is stronger than Madara's post power up, then Madara's will obviously be much stronger than that post power up because his chakra already dwarfed Kakashi/Obito's in size and power pre power up. That's well over a 2x boost. Thus at least, if were to unreasonably lowball whatever boost he got, his PS would only take half the damage.

Then you have to take the size difference between Kurama and PS into account. More chakra=More power needed to completely destroy the whole thing. And the size difference between Kurama and PS is the same as the size difference between half of Madara's V4, and PS. Then there's things like Kyuubi's chakra giving far above a 2x boost, and RT Madara's Susanoo taking 9 Bijuu tail slaps to be broken even though one of those included Kurama's tail, which was matching Sasuke's sword swing at VoTE. (downscale)

 

[Beans2]

What you are saying doesn't make sense. The difference between both before the boost is a factor of 2. If Pre Jin Madara got 2x stronger, then Post Jin Madara will get 2x stronger and vice versa because they are both getting the same boost. Only difference is, one is stronger post boost.

What are you saying here? The multiplier in potency is the same, but the net boost is not. I just confused myself with the numbers, so I'm going to stop using them as an example. 2R JJ Madara - 1RG JJ Madara =/= boost from getting second Rinnegan if SM Madara were to get it. Because the boost from getting the second Rinnegan isn't a quantifiable amount, it's a multiplier of chakra potency.

Except I can just take One Eyed Shinju Madara and compare him to Two Eyed Shinju Madara. That's a 2x boost in strength for both with no extra boost taken into account. (And no, I'm not saying it's actually a 2x boost)

And how exactly do you quantify the difference in power between One Eyed Shinju Madara and Two Eyed Shinju Madara?

This is the only part you have a point on, the bold is still wrong though. One Eyed Shinju Madara made 1. 2 eyed Shinju Madara can make 5. Thus if we were to base his strength increase off of Limbo alone, we'd come to the conclusion that he got 5x stronger.

So if you don't actually have a way of comparing them, then why are you stating that the boost is enough to let him take the VOTE attacks? I don't actually think the number of Limbos Madara can make is representative of his power, so we can forget those (a 5x boost wouldn't be enough anyway.) Thus there aren't any jutsu that both 1 eyed Shinju Madara and 2 eyed Shinju Madara used. Thus there's no direct way to compare their power levels.

Madara's PS at VoTE (not full sized) and SS were both in that explosion and managed to protect the user from the damage. Rikudo's Chakra>>>EMS Madara's regular chakra. If Kakashi's Susanoo is stronger than Madara's pre power up, then Madara's will obviously be much stronger than that post power up because his chakra already dwarfed Kakashi/Obito's in size and power pre power up. That's well over a 2x boost. Thus at least, if were to unreasonably lowball whatever boost he got, his PS would only take half the damage.

Wtf are you putting Kakashi's Susanoo in the same position as VOTE Madara's? A direct pounding from Shinsuusenju is much more damaging to Susanoo than being caught in the explosion which was a clash of the two jutsus. Shinsuusenju would hit RG Madara's PS directly, then there's another 12 giant Bijuu Damas which are hitting Susanoo directly at the same time. What proof is there that Madara's Susanoo can take that kind of attack, let alone Kakashi?

Then you have to take the size difference between Kurama and PS into account. More chakra=More power needed to completely destroy the whole thing. And the size difference between Kurama and PS is the same as the size difference between half of Madara's V4, and PS. Then there's things like Kyuubi's chakra giving far above a 2x boost, and RT Madara's Susanoo taking 9 Bijuu tail slaps to be broken even though one of those included Kurama's tail, which was matching Sasuke's sword swing at VoTE. (downscale)

I'm so lost right now. What does the size difference between PS and Kurama have to do with anything?

 

[LuckyMan]

^^^^^^ @Beans

I think he meant PS Slash and Kurama Tail slash were stalemating at VOTE2. Down scale them and BM Naruto tail and EMS Sasuke PS sword would stalemate. It took BSM Naruto tail plus all 8 other Bijuu tail attacks to break Blind Madara V3 so EMS Sasuke's PS sword wouldn't break it since it's only equal to BM tail.

That might show the power boost Ridoku chakra gave Madara because if EMS Sasuke PS can't break a measly V3 of Blind Madara w/ Ridoku chakra, what will be needed to break his V4, or his PS, or his PS with a single Rinnegan to increase his power, or his PS with both Rinnegan to multiply even more? At least that what I think he's sort of saying. Could be wrong though.

 

[ARGUS]

Wtf are you putting Kakashi's Susanoo in the same position as VOTE Madara's? A direct pounding from Shinsuusenju is much more damaging to Susanoo than being caught in the explosion which was a clash of the two jutsus. Shinsuusenju would hit RG Madara's PS directly, then there's another 12 giant Bijuu Damas which are hitting Susanoo directly at the same time. What proof is there that Madara's Susanoo can take that kind of attack, let alone Kakashi?

madaras PS was in the epicentre of this whole VOTE explosion and yet it still protected him from the whole thing.

Rikudo chakra PS >>> regular PS
boost given from both the rinnegans and SM would make his PS much stronger
thus madara probably tanks it altogether

 

[KidGamer65]

I'll get to the rest later, but lol SS hit him directly. I suggest you read that again. Only a few hands were cut from the Bijuudama, thus the damage difference is obviously not going to be anywhere near as large as you are trying to make it seem. Not sure why you took the time to mention Bijuudama when Bijuudama will do the same amount of damage regardless of the ball hitting him or not, as he was still in the center.

And I explained why size is a factor in durability. Kurama is relevant because ISO PS is only as large as Kurama.

 

[KidGamer65]

What are you saying here? The multiplier in potency is the same, but the net boost is not. I just confused myself with the numbers, so I'm going to stop using them as an example. 2R JJ Madara - 1RG JJ Madara =/= boost from getting second Rinnegan if SM Madara were to get it. Because the boost from getting the second Rinnegan isn't a quantifiable amount, it's a multiplier of chakra potency.

And once again, the net boost is irrelevant. :lol.

The difference between both before the boost is a factor of 2. If Pre Jin Madara got 2x stronger, then Post Jin Madara will get 2x stronger and vice versa because they are both getting the same boost. Only difference is, one is stronger post boost.

The multiplier is the same. If JJ Madara gets a 2x boost. Every other Madara gets the same 2x boost. The only difference is the actual amount of power that they get, but that is not relevant.

And how exactly do you quantify the difference in power between One Eyed Shinju Madara and Two Eyed Shinju Madara?

Can't really.

So if you don't actually have a way of comparing them, then why are you stating that the boost is enough to let him take the VOTE attacks? I don't actually think the number of Limbos Madara can make is representative of his power, so we can forget those (a 5x boost wouldn't be enough anyway.) Thus there aren't any jutsu that both 1 eyed Shinju Madara and 2 eyed Shinju Madara used. Thus there's no direct way to compare their power levels.

Because the Shinju Madara comparison obviously isn't my only form of evidence. And I agree that there is no way Limbo is a measure of power. The rest has been addressed. Unless you actually think that Madara's chakra, who has:

-Hagoromo's chakra from merging indra and asura together.
-Hagoromo's chakra from both Rinnegan (one almost made Obito go crazy and he can't even unlock it's true potential due to not being the original wielder)
-Senjutsu from Hashirama's Sage Mode

is actually going to be less than a 2x boost then you are sorely mistaken. Lack of feats can't even be a counter argument here as we've seen what things weaker than this amalgamation of chakra has done to people in the past.

 

[Kagustuchi]

The Duo take it

 

[Beans2]

I'll get to the rest later, but lol SS hit him directly. I suggest you read that again. Only a few hands were cut from the Bijuudama, thus the damage difference is obviously not going to be anywhere near as large as you are trying to make it seem. Not sure why you took the time to mention Bijuudama when Bijuudama will do the same amount of damage regardless of the ball hitting him or not, as he was still in the center.

And I explained why size is a factor in durability. Kurama is relevant because ISO PS is only as large as Kurama.

So are you saying that if we take Bijuu Dama out of the equation altogether, the result of the VOTE explosion would be the same because PS is strong enough protect Madara from Shinsuusenju? The way I thought of it was that the hands hit the BDs, which exploded on contact, and the epicenter of the explosion was far away enough from Madara that it didn't obliterate his PS along with him inside it. Same reason why I think Naruto can't tank Indra Arrow, because he intercepted it with his attack causing it to explode far away enough from him that it didn't destroy him along with his avatar.

And once again, the net boost is irrelevant. :lol.



The multiplier is the same. If JJ Madara gets a 2x boost. Every other Madara gets the same 2x boost. The only difference is the actual amount of power that they get, but that is not relevant.

Then this is just a giant misunderstanding, because I thought you were saying that the net boost would be the same.

Can't really.

Alright.

Because the Shinju Madara comparison obviously isn't my only form of evidence. And I agree that there is no way Limbo is a measure of power. The rest has been addressed. Unless you actually think that Madara's chakra, who has:

-Hagoromo's chakra from merging indra and asura together.
-Hagoromo's chakra from both Rinnegan (one almost made Obito go crazy and he can't even unlock it's true potential due to not being the original wielder)
-Senjutsu from Hashirama's Sage Mode

is actually going to be less than a 2x boost then you are sorely mistaken. Lack of feats can't even be a counter argument here as we've seen what things weaker than this amalgamation of chakra has done to people in the past.

I get that Madara's Susanoo gets a really big boost. What I don't get is why you think that allows him to tank a barrage with the attack power equivalent to almost 2 Shinsuusenju's, when it took BD barrage to partially defend himself from 1 SS, and even then his Susanoo is completely destroyed. His Rikudou chakra, as you once put it, is "K-mart quality".

 

[KidGamer65]

So are you saying that if we take Bijuu Dama out of the equation altogether, the result of the VOTE explosion would be the same because PS is strong enough protect Madara from Shinsuusenju? The way I thought of it was that the hands hit the BDs, which exploded on contact, and the epicenter of the explosion was far away enough from Madara that it didn't obliterate his PS along with him inside it. Same reason why I think Naruto can't tank Indra Arrow, because he intercepted it with his attack causing it to explode far away enough from him that it didn't destroy him along with his avatar.

The same? No. Madara's Susanoo would only end up taking quite a bit more than half of the damage dealt that entire time. But the overall conclusion would be the same because half of PS wouldn't protect Kurama from suppression.

But yeah. This is what happened. SS hit PS, some hands were broken from the BD blades, some made it through and pounded PS. The BD exploded and then we have that massive explosion. SS and PS were practically right in front of each other, and as that explosion is so large, the epicenter would naturally be larger than a smaller explosions. So they were both in the epicenter unless they somehow moved before everything went down, which I'm sure they didn't.

Naruto was able to tank an explosion that had around (less due to the element advantage Naruto had) 2x the power of Indra's Arrow because the clash caused the energy of both attacks, mainly Indra's Arrow, to be dispersed in a giant explosion instead of it applying every bit of it's energy onto Naruto's body in the form of an arrow, which results in an extremely focused punch.

So Naruto can protect himself from an explosion a bit weaker than 2x Indra's Arrow, but he can't protect himself from Indra's Arrow since the energy applied to him is far more than it would be with an explosion.

Then this is just a giant misunderstanding, because I thought you were saying that the net boost would be the same.

Oh, yeah. Nah.

I get that Madara's Susanoo gets a really big boost. What I don't get is why you think that allows him to tank a barrage with the attack power equivalent to almost 2 Shinsuusenju's, when it took BD barrage to partially defend himself from 1 SS, and even then his Susanoo is completely destroyed. His Rikudou chakra, as you once put it, is "K-mart quality".

Like I said, a 2x boost is enough for him to survive this boost with half of his PS left. Then make his PS it's regular size and it takes even less overall damage. Then throw in the fact that whatever boost he has is obviously far far beyond 2x and you come to the conclusion that they aren't destroying his Susanoo any time soon.

BD barrage was to wipe Hashirama out and counter his attack, not defend from it. Did they lessen the impact? Sure. But by an amount where SS would do far more damage? No, and that's been explained. The only thing I forgot about here, is that SS can keep on punching since there is nothing hindering it here, but all Madara needs to do is counter with multiple CT if his PS isn't strong enough to do something with it's own power.

And that's before I came to the conclusion that Madara's V3 Susanoo is far stronger than what a regular one would be, and the only explanation would be his chakra. Not to mention DRSM Madara's chakra>>>Blind SM Madara's chakra.

Then we still have things like Chibaku Tensei, which would dwarf Nagato's in size and number (true power of Rinnegan, Rikudo's power, Sage Mode and chakra reserves that dwarf Nagato's), and neither have the firepower to outright vaporize a single of Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, so there's no way they counter all of Madara's CT and his PS at the same time. There's no way he loses this.

 

[Apêx1]

Madara shits. Obito clearly suggests the presence of both Rinnegan's is something completely different then the presence of a lone Rinnegan. And anyways, the way he portrays the Rinnegan's power clearly implies it increases Madara's power far beyond the ordinary. It's not a 1=1 and 2=2, it's a far greater boost, and if anything we can gauge the difference by the amount of Limbo's the user can use at full power. Going from 1 to 5 is a huge boost, FAR beyond anything SM Hashirama and Madara would be capable of fighting.

 

[Kagustuchi]

Just saying. The boost Madara gets from his second Rinnegan in terms of potency isn't all that great in the grand scheme of things. The big boost is letting him use PS and bigger Rinnegan jutsu.

If a Rinnegan's chakra potency = 5 points, then JJ Madara and RT Madara would get a 5 point Bonus. It doesn't multiply anything

 

[ARGUS]

Just saying. The boost Madara gets from his second Rinnegan in terms of potency isn't all that great in the grand scheme of things. The big boost is letting him use PS and bigger Rinnegan jutsu.

If a Rinnegan's chakra potency = 5 points, then JJ Madara and RT Madara would get a 5 point Bonus. It doesn't multiply anything

I dont understand how that isnt any good.

Obito was getting shit scared on the mere thought of madara getting both of his rinnegan.
portryal doesnt just focus on the chakra boost that the rinnegan provides. but also the abilities it grants.

and after getting his shit kicked in by naruto and sasuke who didnt even use most of their arsenal. it was implied that madara alone is competent enough to fight them.

then theres the fact that getting the other eye lets him use his abiltieis to the absolute max.
based on what was implied, i highly doubt that PS would be his full power as a jin. given the immense hype oof the rinnegan and him being a jin on top of that.

if only kishi actualyl showed us the featss of rinnegan. but there is no doubt that rinnegans hype and portryal trumps PS. and getting both eyes is an equivalent (if not higher) boost than even being a JJ