Claymantan
Anbu Operative 🎭
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2016
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I'm trying to acknowledge and respond to your point of view, but you keep telling me I'm dismissing it, and honestly, I don't know why you're saying that. If there's something you want me to directly respond to that I'm not responding to or am ignoring, tell me. I invite anyone to do this.
I don't see how you can say I dismissed it. I acknowledged it, and my whole post responds to it. Demonstrating the risks transpeople face is a perfectly fine response to someone who argues about the consequences women face. If you disagree, simply say "the consequences upon trans people are irrelevant, and these costs to women are much greater and more important."
How does one go about responding to the raised concern that women will lose their exclusive spaces/that women are having non-women forced upon them in a way that isn't considered dismissive?
Your first post is confusing because you say to make unisex bathrooms, but then the rest of the post is about how women should have their own spaces. So I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic, because you use sarcasm in your posts often enough, or what. I'm still not entirely sure what your preference is for the question about bathroom usage. Are you saying that there should be women exclusive bathrooms, male exclusive bathrooms, and unisex bathrooms all at once?
Universities like Barnard, in the States (an all-girls' college) have begun to accept transwomen students and in some of their buildings, have only unisex bathrooms. What do you think of this?
Again, I don't see how you can say I didn't consider their side. How did you want me to respond?
I want to know where you think transpeople should be placed in society, and what you think they should actually be allowed to do.
Now, I think you're implying, although you're never really outright stating it, that transwomen aren't really women (since you always refer to them as "he,"). You've said that these "men" should commune with other men. But how do you think that's going to happen? Non-transpersons aren't exactly gearing to help transpeople out. Ultimately, saying that transpeople should just commune with other transpeople and men is the same as saying that transpeople shouldn't have any significant resources to defend themselves.
Even if women are oppressed, they have these resources. Patriarchy exists, but women aren't totally and completely helpless to it (and neither are trans people). I'm not ignoring the possible cost to women no longer having an exclusive space to themselves. However, it's also not necessarily correct to say that this is happening regardless of whether or not women want it to happen.
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Older women tend not to. To me, this says that women are fully capable of understanding transwomen as not an encroachment on their personal space, but merely as fellow women - even if that's not totally where we are yet as a society. And if you understand transwomen as truly female, then is that really a cost to women's personal/exclusive spaces?I'm not sure you understand the trans side of the argument. You frame it as transwomen wanting access to female bathrooms "because he wants it," but from my point of view and the point of view of transpeople, the transperson has equal right to be considered a woman. You wouldn't say a woman wants access to women's bathrooms just because she wants it, and therefore shouldn't have it.
If you're not painting all transpeople, or even most trans people, or even a significant number of transpeople as criminals or threats (I'm not saying you are, you've said that you aren't), then tell me - why is it so important that women have this specific space, unthreatened by any possible other interpretation of gender?
Besides, like you alluded to about transmen, this is a two way issue. If you consider transmen and transwomen to not really be the gender they say they are, because gender is more than ID, then I'm also arguing for men to give up their gender exclusive spaces too, aren't I? No one's arguing that transwomen should be allowed in the women's bathroom but transmen shouldn't be allowed in the men's bathroom. The reason we talk more about transwomen than transmen is simply because people talk about transwomen when they say that trans people should have to go to the bathroom that corresponds to their birth anatomy. It wouldn't make sense to argue that transmen should be allowed to do what they want but transwomen shouldn't; it wouldn't make sense to argue that transwomen should be able to do what they want and transmen shouldn't.
Even if I am doing this, how is it different from what you're doing? Your original post only discusses the consequences upon women if such laws are passed as well. Therefore, isn't your argument equally fractured?
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