Should jobs go to "natives" first?
- Thread starter Chikombo
- Start date
BlazeRelease
Active member
I don't argue politics in my free time, politicians get paid for that, not me.
I'll simply state my views in the simplest form:
Immigration is not a major issue for americans and I do not believe people coming here from other countries is affecting us in any major negative way.
Also, I'd like to point out, I am speaking mainly on America's most frequent idea of immigration; that is, mexicans coming from across the border. My words are not intended to encompass all sources of immigration, just the ones most frequently talked about.
I'll simply state my views in the simplest form:
Immigration is not a major issue for americans and I do not believe people coming here from other countries is affecting us in any major negative way.
Also, I'd like to point out, I am speaking mainly on America's most frequent idea of immigration; that is, mexicans coming from across the border. My words are not intended to encompass all sources of immigration, just the ones most frequently talked about.
Yeah right
Active member
Might as well have since this is an open forum.
Also, if we (the U.S.) do go for citizens first, does that exclude others Americans. is this notion just for white peoples without jobs.
Because I’m brown and I’m 100% American.
Just for another POV, watch this.
[video=youtube_share;pN2s9w2ELoE]https://youtu.be/pN2s9w2ELoE[/video]
Allow me to phrase a more direct question. Recently, in Tucson, a range of coyote camps were discovered. While a number of groups tried to hype the discovery into something more than it was... the hype distracts from the real questions. Coyotes are people who bring people over the border illegally. They facilitate transportation and navigation, as well as the actual crossing of the border, in many cases. It is often assumed that mexicans are paying the coyotes, and surely, there are some who have. However, let's ask the more plain question... who is paying the coyotes to bring people in from other nations?
Quite the interesting twist... the human trafficking network gets obscured by the attempts to spin the coyote camp as a rape camp. See how the disinformation game is played?
Of course not, why would it be, the USA is one of the most diverse places there is, immigration isn't a problem. The thing is you're mixing up illegal immigration with immigration and blaming the right for discrimination because of their strong stance against illegals. You're just trying to sugar coat illegal immigration. Illegal immigration IS a problem.
Yeah right
Active member
Tell us how it’s a problem.
I’ll give you the first one.
Illegal immigrants kill citizens.
Back at it, huh?
Sure, why not. Let's see how well that idea will go over. Just start asking people if you think it should be law to hire a white person before a black person, because they aren't citizens, or something.
Hmm... I've got my eye on you (or do I?).
Well i didn't quote or even mentioned you so...
Only blacks *sarcasm*
Seriously though, what even is this question?
Okay? Me too, and?
BlazeRelease
Active member
Okay, let me clarify further, because you seem to be taking what I am saying the wrong way.
From my personal experience, many people have complained about mexicans coming over and taking jobs. They (Not every person) tend to say things such as "Close the borders until our veterans are fed" or "Close the borders until we have enough jobs for our own people".
These people, the ones that I personally most commonly deal with in political arguments, are against Immigration
I, myself, am against illegal immigration, because I know very well that our procedures for citizenship are there for a reason. Coming here illegally is also not a good start for your record.
Illegal immigration is a problem. Legal immigration where people come across the border and attain citizenship and get jobs, is NOT a problem. The majority of people who make an argument against immigration from mexico (And in rare cases, all immigration) Assume the stance that none of them should get jobs until every american has one. They claim they are "Stealing jobs", and are also "lazy" (Not sure how a lazy person can steal a job :hmm: )
IDK what your stance on regular immigration is, nor did I comment on it, I am simply speaking on the most relevant discussion on immigration in modern america.
A discussion I find incredibly stupid, because the REAL issues with immigration (The time it takes to attain citizenship, the corruption at the borders, I.E. family members getting "lost" or the racists who set people up to stop them from immigrating properly, amongst other things most people never hear about) are never spoken of.
When most people hear immigration, they either think "No human is illegal!!!" (Stupid) or "Dem Damn lazy mexicans are stealin my jobs!" (Also stupid.)
People look at me crazy when I say things like all types of people should be allowed in this country after they go through the immigration process and attain citizenship, and we should value lifelong residents the same as we do new residents, because one life is not worth more than the other just because they were born here and the other was', and we should also be making the process for attaining citizenship more reasonable and smoother, as it is currently way too complicated and lengthy for most families to make the transtitiom, and making it easier would, ahem... Decrease Illegal immigration rates. At least some. Many families who come here illegally do so because they feel they have to- not a justification for them... but removing that obstacle would make things easier for everybody.
Instead you have stupid ass liberals saying dumb shit about open borders, and stupid ass conservatives saying dumb shit about immigrants stealing jobs, saying "we should take care of our own first"... AS IF WE EVEN DO THAT.
welcome to america, one of the only major first world countries where healthcare is not a given, decent wages are not a given, government benefits are stupidly handled in a way that encourages you NOT to make progress, and the rich don't have to pay their fair share of taxes and the lower class doesn't make enough to pay enough taxes to sustain the place, so the middle class is royally fucked and we blame all of our problems on christians, gays, mexicans, muslims, poor people, and EVERYBODY realizes the government sucks and so do all the politicians yet EVERYBODY falls for the same exacts shit next time election comes around, and the liberals and conservatives just call each other names instead of changing perspective.
HowDidIGetPrem
Active member
Awards
I'm just wondering if OP means immigrants specifically, migrants in general, or all of them including illegals. The way he wrote "native" would make you think he meant immigrants since the distinction isn't in whether the person is a citizen but that the person was born American.
Chikombo
Active member
Awards
I mean people who are legal immigrants or with migration background first and foremost, I dont know about America I just used that as an example cus I hear some people talking about it over there, but here there have been a lot of immigration which has cause a lot of problems so people in other countries laugh at us xD.
But basically the politicians talk about how they become segregated, they live in areas with a lot of gangs and criminilaity and they feed off of the state, cus they don't have any jobs, they barely have an education so they think it's important for them to get easy jobs.
But when people start saying that for lack of a better word "natives" or people who are already estabilished in the country should get jobs first that just breaks that nice concept for me cus how the hell are people supposed to get into society if they have to back away for people who somehow deserve those jobs more? That doesn't make sense to me.
I think you don't need to have migration background to be segregated either, you can have been put through the system with mental illness or something and you end up living in some institution where you don't have to work or worry about your economy or anything either.
Having a job even if it's a shitty one seems like such a basic and important thing in life to me, so I think it's important to grant that for people who need to get into society, that's what everyone says is the solution, but it doesn't work if like "Americans" has to come first, in USA. Or whatever the country is.
But I didn't think about illegal immigrants, I have heard there is some of that here as well but not much, I don't know what to think about that tbh.
People say America is a melting pot, some people I think look at that as a dreamland where everyone can come from anywhere and live happily together, I don't know if that's true.
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Widow Maker
Member
**** jobs, **** systems, **** countries, **** all the races, **** homosapiens, **** babies, **** love, **** hate, **** religion, **** life **** death, **** you puny minded insignicant little bugs, **** - **** itself.
Nothing matters u morons, theres no system no reigion, no true meaning. The true world is a multiverse of infinite complexities and infinite "no fucks given" too a chaotic reasoning for humanity, or its systems and beliefs to hold any meaning except for the fact that we are a desease on this planet and we prove it every day.
what u do, what u dont, who u love who u hate, who comes first among a bunch of bugs (country) who has jobs, who doesnt, these are all worthless concepts and in the span of time will have no meaning whatsoever
whenever i see pregnant people so happy and proud they are having a baby which they consider a miracle i cant help but dangle my cock out with mockery in my mind, because i know its just another worthless shitbrain being spawned into the world, i just wanna say go **** yourself and ur baby, 98% of those born live their lives eating shitting and sleeping, consuming the life out of this planet and procreating jus like a virus, obssessed only with finding their own petty happiness
so if nothing really matters, whats the point of it all? the point is FREEDOM, freedom is the catalyst of all Truths and Illusions, of all which matters and Does Not. Freedom is not something which humans can give or take, nor can the universe itself can take that which is true of eatch of you, your truths are ur own the only problem with humanity is they mess with other peoples truths, and that is what this thread is doing, you seperate peoples truths u label their truths u define their truths all are things which are impossible and unforgivable, a person can only decide hes own truth. The end.
So what matters is nothing. But freedom can give nothingness meaning because it can bind reality and illusion, truth and lies to create meaning out of anything one chooses. I choose that family matters therefore this is only truth that matters to me, you choose that a job matters therefore this is a truth that matters to you. However it only matters in ur own inner universe, as is mine, as for the real world it remains as ever a fact that nothing matters. So **** it all is probably one of two best expressions a human can say about the truth of the world.
i know i sound like a salty cunt in the beginning, but there is a simple conclusion to all this and what i think to be true: Dont give a **** about anything except for that which concerns you, but do try to improve your outer circle rather than diminish those around you, because as they flourish, so will you. But at all times remember this motto "**** it"
oh and theres no such thing as natives, just a bunch of cunts who killed and massacred other races a long time ago and conquered lands which belong to no one.
Nothing matters u morons, theres no system no reigion, no true meaning. The true world is a multiverse of infinite complexities and infinite "no fucks given" too a chaotic reasoning for humanity, or its systems and beliefs to hold any meaning except for the fact that we are a desease on this planet and we prove it every day.
what u do, what u dont, who u love who u hate, who comes first among a bunch of bugs (country) who has jobs, who doesnt, these are all worthless concepts and in the span of time will have no meaning whatsoever
whenever i see pregnant people so happy and proud they are having a baby which they consider a miracle i cant help but dangle my cock out with mockery in my mind, because i know its just another worthless shitbrain being spawned into the world, i just wanna say go **** yourself and ur baby, 98% of those born live their lives eating shitting and sleeping, consuming the life out of this planet and procreating jus like a virus, obssessed only with finding their own petty happiness
so if nothing really matters, whats the point of it all? the point is FREEDOM, freedom is the catalyst of all Truths and Illusions, of all which matters and Does Not. Freedom is not something which humans can give or take, nor can the universe itself can take that which is true of eatch of you, your truths are ur own the only problem with humanity is they mess with other peoples truths, and that is what this thread is doing, you seperate peoples truths u label their truths u define their truths all are things which are impossible and unforgivable, a person can only decide hes own truth. The end.
So what matters is nothing. But freedom can give nothingness meaning because it can bind reality and illusion, truth and lies to create meaning out of anything one chooses. I choose that family matters therefore this is only truth that matters to me, you choose that a job matters therefore this is a truth that matters to you. However it only matters in ur own inner universe, as is mine, as for the real world it remains as ever a fact that nothing matters. So **** it all is probably one of two best expressions a human can say about the truth of the world.
i know i sound like a salty cunt in the beginning, but there is a simple conclusion to all this and what i think to be true: Dont give a **** about anything except for that which concerns you, but do try to improve your outer circle rather than diminish those around you, because as they flourish, so will you. But at all times remember this motto "**** it"
oh and theres no such thing as natives, just a bunch of cunts who killed and massacred other races a long time ago and conquered lands which belong to no one.
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As I said with minimum wage, this was basically the same policy, masked to try and obscure the intent. Of course, as someone who disagrees with minimum wage, now, I am someone who my opponents argue wants to see slave wages.
Consider, when we used to pull up to the gas pump back in the 1940s and 50s, there was often a teenager who worked in his part time to pump gas, wipe windshields, even check fluids in the vehicles coming to the station. He wasn't paid a whole hell of a lot for his time, but if he is a teenager, living at home, and mostly looking for something to do during the summer (when, in the old days, we let people off from school to help work the fields during the summer - tradition), then it's not really 'slave wages' to hand a kid a rake and pay him for making himself useful.
What do those same high-school kids do, today? Unless they can dedicate themselves to a job that is geared toward minimum wage, they have very few official options aside from cutting grass. Most end up wandering the streets as daytime vagrants, with few structured ways for them to utilize their energy in a constructive manner - so, rather than building applicable skills, experience, or character - they end up venting in in a disruptive manner.
Get rid of minimum wage, and some jobs may end up dropping below what they pay, now - but, when I worked in fast food, I can tell you that it wasn't so much the pay that irritated me... it was the little things like being expected to handle the cash window and dishes at the same time. Sure - if it's not rush, then it's not that bad. However, you get a car, barely get your hands back in the water, and there's another car... then another... and another... before you know it, the next shift is coming in, pissed that the dishes aren't done and that a few other end-of-shift duties you are, ideally, supposed to take care of are going to have to fall on them, or you are going to have to stay late (but managers are harped at for overtime).
While I, personally, have a very different business philosophy from the accounting nutcases that have been allowed to take over business decisions in many places - the point is that it would be a simple matter to pay a kid $20 to rake up the leaves that build up in the drive through before a customer's cigarette sets the damned place on fire (that was fun), or just someone to come in and focus on the dishes. It's rather absurd when businesses structure themselves so lean that they can barely find the time and opportunity to dedicate shifts to training their employees.
While, again, I argue this is mostly an issue of accountants and "residual income" nutcases running the show - as someone who has seen the revenues of some of these facilities, there is no fucking reason why I should have ever been trying to take an order on the drive, bag, and fill drinks. Holy shit on a sundae. I mean - dragon... so I got pretty damned good at it (except for frosties... always forgot the damned frosties), but it wasn't really about the pay - it was about the fact that if you got an off-hour rush ... you didn't have the manpower to handle it. If one person couldn't make into work, you were scavenging manpower from somewhere else. There's lean and efficient staffing to remove waste... and then there's just trying to milk a skeleton.
Anyway... long tangent rant over...
I don't think it should ever be policy to say "we want a domestically born person over an immigrant" - that's nonsense. However, it's difficult to deny that an immigrant has a number of challenges (and, potentially, their own advantages) relative to a domestic hire. For example, I am in the interviewing process for a job where there is the potential for international travel (as in... I am still in the clearing house process, so, we shall see). Obviously, I have a much easier time communicating technical proficiency or picking up on some social cues during an interview than many immigrants would be able to do. That said, an immigrant is often likely to take the interview far more seriously and for jobs where their native or known tongues are expected to be used, they have an immense advantage. The machine I work on at work has much of its default operating system in Italian. Since I kinda-sorta understand the latin bases, I can usually make out what I am looking at - but Google Translate is often used to figure out why we are going to have to wait a week for parts. If I were to go to Germany or somewhere like that, I am at a considerable disadvantage.
It is, also, not the average person who picks up from their homeland and decides to journey long distances - particularly those who are completely uprooting and moving to a different culture. These people are often of above-average motivation. I can train a motivated person to do just about anything. Instilling motivation into someone who is just there to punch the clock.... that's a lot harder.
When my ancestors came over from Germany, they moved outside of the city and into a small German community that adopted many of the patterns of life from Germany. Largely, they farmed. At some point, my paternal lineage set up a hardware store to supply the area with tools, and later added on a sheet metal shop - which would later be contracted to participate in the construction of the Gateway Arch in St. Louis. No one hired them to start farming. No one hired them to build a business. These were just things that needed to be done and there was no one there to shut them down for not having a license, for building in the wrong spot, or for farming on land that was not used for anything.
Why is this different, today? There is not a single answer, as there are multiple factors feeding into it, but if you ever take a drive out through the midwest, you'll see that the idea we are 'running out of room' doesn't really make much sense. It may to people in the city... where most of the population lives, but to those of us out here in fly-over territory, the notion is absurd.
This is not to say that there aren't rules worth breaking, or things that a person must do to stay true to who they are. There are plenty of injust rules or other such circumstances where I can hardly blame a person for taking it upon themselves to do what they see as right. But doing so invokes the ire of law.
In the case of illegal 'immigrants,' it would be nice if there was a way we could easily assess their intent on being here. In the U.S. - the problem is of such a scale that this is not realistic. While I do not necessarily wish for mass deportations to just toss people on the other side of the border - there should be a process for properly moving people out of the country and back to where they came from if they are not legal immigrants. If it is realistic to do so, it would also be ideal to have a means of vetting those people identified as being here illegally, and processing them back in as part of the legal population.
The problem is how to do this in a just manner. There are millions of immigrants who have gone through the legal process to get here. Many of them waited years, paid considerable fees, etc. To just up and say: "Oh... well... those of you who are already here are now legal, yay" communicates to current and future applicants that our immigration process can be ignored - and if they just find the right avenue in, illegally, then it will all be sorted out on the other side. This can potentially expose them to human trafficking networks, gangs, and other such things.
While I agree the current immigration system is ... flawed.... to put it mildly, it doesn't change what the current law states, and that the current law has authority.
There was a time in this nation when my family was not considered "white." There was a time where my maternal lineage (strong Native American roots) was the target of extremely wrong policies. Every era has its issues and struggles. Every time you throw different groups of people together in the same room, they are going to squabble more than a bit. Feet are going to get stepped on, fighting words are going to be said, and tensions will exist.
There are other groups of people who look to twist and manipulate these tensions to benefit their own objectives and goals. There are people out there who have every motivation to try and make you think you are under attack and that the problem will go away if you just strike at this other group (who is, also, being fed much the same idea, just with you as the target).
Consider, when we used to pull up to the gas pump back in the 1940s and 50s, there was often a teenager who worked in his part time to pump gas, wipe windshields, even check fluids in the vehicles coming to the station. He wasn't paid a whole hell of a lot for his time, but if he is a teenager, living at home, and mostly looking for something to do during the summer (when, in the old days, we let people off from school to help work the fields during the summer - tradition), then it's not really 'slave wages' to hand a kid a rake and pay him for making himself useful.
What do those same high-school kids do, today? Unless they can dedicate themselves to a job that is geared toward minimum wage, they have very few official options aside from cutting grass. Most end up wandering the streets as daytime vagrants, with few structured ways for them to utilize their energy in a constructive manner - so, rather than building applicable skills, experience, or character - they end up venting in in a disruptive manner.
Get rid of minimum wage, and some jobs may end up dropping below what they pay, now - but, when I worked in fast food, I can tell you that it wasn't so much the pay that irritated me... it was the little things like being expected to handle the cash window and dishes at the same time. Sure - if it's not rush, then it's not that bad. However, you get a car, barely get your hands back in the water, and there's another car... then another... and another... before you know it, the next shift is coming in, pissed that the dishes aren't done and that a few other end-of-shift duties you are, ideally, supposed to take care of are going to have to fall on them, or you are going to have to stay late (but managers are harped at for overtime).
While I, personally, have a very different business philosophy from the accounting nutcases that have been allowed to take over business decisions in many places - the point is that it would be a simple matter to pay a kid $20 to rake up the leaves that build up in the drive through before a customer's cigarette sets the damned place on fire (that was fun), or just someone to come in and focus on the dishes. It's rather absurd when businesses structure themselves so lean that they can barely find the time and opportunity to dedicate shifts to training their employees.
While, again, I argue this is mostly an issue of accountants and "residual income" nutcases running the show - as someone who has seen the revenues of some of these facilities, there is no fucking reason why I should have ever been trying to take an order on the drive, bag, and fill drinks. Holy shit on a sundae. I mean - dragon... so I got pretty damned good at it (except for frosties... always forgot the damned frosties), but it wasn't really about the pay - it was about the fact that if you got an off-hour rush ... you didn't have the manpower to handle it. If one person couldn't make into work, you were scavenging manpower from somewhere else. There's lean and efficient staffing to remove waste... and then there's just trying to milk a skeleton.
Anyway... long tangent rant over...
I don't think it should ever be policy to say "we want a domestically born person over an immigrant" - that's nonsense. However, it's difficult to deny that an immigrant has a number of challenges (and, potentially, their own advantages) relative to a domestic hire. For example, I am in the interviewing process for a job where there is the potential for international travel (as in... I am still in the clearing house process, so, we shall see). Obviously, I have a much easier time communicating technical proficiency or picking up on some social cues during an interview than many immigrants would be able to do. That said, an immigrant is often likely to take the interview far more seriously and for jobs where their native or known tongues are expected to be used, they have an immense advantage. The machine I work on at work has much of its default operating system in Italian. Since I kinda-sorta understand the latin bases, I can usually make out what I am looking at - but Google Translate is often used to figure out why we are going to have to wait a week for parts. If I were to go to Germany or somewhere like that, I am at a considerable disadvantage.
It is, also, not the average person who picks up from their homeland and decides to journey long distances - particularly those who are completely uprooting and moving to a different culture. These people are often of above-average motivation. I can train a motivated person to do just about anything. Instilling motivation into someone who is just there to punch the clock.... that's a lot harder.
I think the better question to ask is why the available jobs are so few.
When my ancestors came over from Germany, they moved outside of the city and into a small German community that adopted many of the patterns of life from Germany. Largely, they farmed. At some point, my paternal lineage set up a hardware store to supply the area with tools, and later added on a sheet metal shop - which would later be contracted to participate in the construction of the Gateway Arch in St. Louis. No one hired them to start farming. No one hired them to build a business. These were just things that needed to be done and there was no one there to shut them down for not having a license, for building in the wrong spot, or for farming on land that was not used for anything.
Why is this different, today? There is not a single answer, as there are multiple factors feeding into it, but if you ever take a drive out through the midwest, you'll see that the idea we are 'running out of room' doesn't really make much sense. It may to people in the city... where most of the population lives, but to those of us out here in fly-over territory, the notion is absurd.
Every individual faces challenges in life. We can then group these people according to like or similar challenges, and then form a minority group. Whether this is a 'real group' or one that we simply create for political argument is always a question to be asked.
The problem is a bit of a challenge. There are people who are here illegally. They aren't "immigrants" - their very presence in the nation is a violation of law. It's not that I don't understand why people would violate such laws. However, I do find the "laws don't apply to me" mentality somewhat problematic (if a tad ironic). For example, one of my relatives just up and lit up a cigarette in an area that was blatantly labeled no smoking. It wasn't until a staff member came and corrected him that he complied. It's a minor infraction - but that's just the thing "I'll do what I can get away with." That mentality bothers me.
This is not to say that there aren't rules worth breaking, or things that a person must do to stay true to who they are. There are plenty of injust rules or other such circumstances where I can hardly blame a person for taking it upon themselves to do what they see as right. But doing so invokes the ire of law.
In the case of illegal 'immigrants,' it would be nice if there was a way we could easily assess their intent on being here. In the U.S. - the problem is of such a scale that this is not realistic. While I do not necessarily wish for mass deportations to just toss people on the other side of the border - there should be a process for properly moving people out of the country and back to where they came from if they are not legal immigrants. If it is realistic to do so, it would also be ideal to have a means of vetting those people identified as being here illegally, and processing them back in as part of the legal population.
The problem is how to do this in a just manner. There are millions of immigrants who have gone through the legal process to get here. Many of them waited years, paid considerable fees, etc. To just up and say: "Oh... well... those of you who are already here are now legal, yay" communicates to current and future applicants that our immigration process can be ignored - and if they just find the right avenue in, illegally, then it will all be sorted out on the other side. This can potentially expose them to human trafficking networks, gangs, and other such things.
While I agree the current immigration system is ... flawed.... to put it mildly, it doesn't change what the current law states, and that the current law has authority.
It used to be more true than it currently is... or is being made to appear in the media.
There was a time in this nation when my family was not considered "white." There was a time where my maternal lineage (strong Native American roots) was the target of extremely wrong policies. Every era has its issues and struggles. Every time you throw different groups of people together in the same room, they are going to squabble more than a bit. Feet are going to get stepped on, fighting words are going to be said, and tensions will exist.
There are other groups of people who look to twist and manipulate these tensions to benefit their own objectives and goals. There are people out there who have every motivation to try and make you think you are under attack and that the problem will go away if you just strike at this other group (who is, also, being fed much the same idea, just with you as the target).
Illegal immigration is a problem for everyone or they wouldn't be called "illegal" and there would be no need for a formal law and procedure to immigrate.
People replying were not commenting on illegal migration but the legal immigrants who come job seeking with a valid work visa/permissions.
