[Discussion] Should Itachi be given full credit for owning the Sealing Blade?

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
In terms of his hierarchy placement as a shinobi, how much credit should Itachi get for having the sealing blade?

The reason i ask is because it doesn't seem to be inherently attached to him. Like, if he was using it in battle, an opponent like any Hyuga or Mist shinobi could use their projection techniques to knock it off of Itachi and then grab the weapon for themselves.

This is different for someone like Orochimaru because he controls his blade telepathically. This means that even if someone knocked it off and tried to wield it, he would just control it from a distance. The same applies to Kisame and his blade. This even goes as far as other weapon users with their special weapons, such as Killer B with his streaming blades, Zabuza with his sword and so on because their entire styles revolve around control of their weapons. On the other hand, Itachi doesn't really specialise in his weapon and so can easier be dispossesed of it.

Can it not really be said that Itachi is just the guy who starts off with the sealing blade in a fight, and not so much the owner of it?
 

Avani

Legendary
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
19,609
Kin
3,746💸
Kumi
261💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Can it not really be said that Itachi is just the guy who starts off with the sealing blade in a fight, and not so much the owner of it?
How was he not owner of it? His susano is unique to him, manifested from his own chakra and the spirit weapon it uses is part of him. An extension of his will. Sasuke's Susano manifested a bow. Whom do you think it belongs?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yursix

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
How was he not owner of it? His susano is unique to him, manifested from his own chakra and the spirit weapon it uses is part of him. An extension of his will. Sasuke's Susano manifested a bow. Whom do you think it belongs?
No, the Sealing Blade is its own weapon.

Itachi keeps it in his chakra armour just as Orochimaru keeps his blade inside his body. The blade is independent.

Proof is that Zetsu and Orochimaru knew about it despite a lack of knowledge about the chakra armour. More proof is that chakra armour weapons have no special effects besides being weapons made of chakra
Post automatically merged:

We'll talk more later, gotta go now
 
  • Haha
Reactions: minamoto

Avani

Legendary
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
19,609
Kin
3,746💸
Kumi
261💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
No, the Sealing Blade is its own weapon.

Itachi keeps it in his chakra armour just as Orochimaru keeps his blade inside his body. The blade is independent.

Proof is that Zetsu and Orochimaru knew about it despite a lack of knowledge about the chakra armour. More proof is that chakra armour weapons have no special effects besides being weapons made of chakra
Post automatically merged:

We'll talk more later, gotta go now
Where does it says it's a blade anyone can wield? It's a spirit weapon- a liquid blade which takes it's shape when need arises and a Susano manifested by an Ms user is wielding it.

Orochimaru may have heard about it and looking for it doesn't mean he knew everything about it. He didn't find it till it pierced him, did he? Or I am forgetting some details? I may have.. it's been years. But I don't think one could get the blade just like that. No one found it beside the body and picked it up after Itachi died. Itachi wielded it even after his death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxxi

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Just because Itachi didn't commit to specializing with his weapon doesn't mean he'd lose it any easier than anyone else. Kisame and Orochimaru are the only two whose swords will return to them, and it's arguable getting Itachi's blade would be the hardest since it's guarded by both Yata and Susanoo.
The first part is an oxymoron

Training = skill, generally.

The blade itself isn't guarded by the mirror.

Itachi wasn't just the shadow hokage, he was the shadow protagonist of the series.

The Sealing Blade is his King's Arthur sword.
I actually don't disagree with this

Where does it says it's a blade anyone can wield? It's a spirit weapon- a liquid blade which takes it's shape when need arises and a Susano manifested by an Ms user is wielding it.

Orochimaru may have heard about it and looking for it doesn't mean he knew everything about it. He didn't find it till it pierced him, did he? Or I am forgetting some details? I may have.. it's been years. But I don't think one could get the blade just like that. No one found it beside the body and picked it up after Itachi died. Itachi wielded it even after his death.
Logic says a weapon can be wielded by anyone.

Unless we are given special conditions like with the Shark Blade which needs lots of chakra etc

He would have known more than most . . .

Anyway, the only thing that matters itt is that the weapon is fundamentally separate from Itachi, so it can be taken from him.

Confused? Why does Itachi need credit? That's like saying I deserve credit for owning/finding a dog. It's my dog (perhaps I found it abandon) why should you care. Itachi found the spirit weapon and now it's his. Orochimaru didn't find it.
In combat

Like, we consider Zabuza as being as good as whatever his sword can do because he is nearly perfect with it and so will almost always have the advantage that comes with it. But if Zabuza was poor with his blade, then an opponent could steal the blade and use it against him. See?

Otherwise, everyone has made insteresting points thus far
 

Avani

Legendary
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
19,609
Kin
3,746💸
Kumi
261💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Logic says a weapon can be wielded by anyone.

Unless we are given special conditions like with the Shark Blade which needs lots of chakra etc

He would have known more than most . . .

Anyway, the only thing that matters itt is that the weapon is fundamentally separate from Itachi, so it can be taken from him.
A weapon who no one can find. A weapon that had been heard about but only was seen when Itachi manifested susano which is actually his own chakra manifestation.

Orochimaru having heard something doesn't equal to knowing everything. He might have heard about it and didn't realize what kind of sword it was.

Exactly, how is it fundamentally separate from Itachi and can be taken? If it was a normal weapon anyone could collect it from his body when he died. That was not the case. You cannot just make a statement out of blue when there is no evidence to back up your words. It's a weapon which is held by susano Itachi manifested and it was made of Itachi's chakra. It clearly depicted in similar form and disappears along with Susano. You cannot take susano or it's part.

We have seen that a susano wields weapons similar to disposition of the user. Sasuke uses thunder and lightening and his susano manifested Indra's bow. Indra is associated with thunder lightening and rains. Itachi is deadly but by nature he was said to be pacifist. It was said that he avoided fights as much as he could. When he couldn't, he would end the fight as quickly as possible, all the while holding himself back as much as possible. And his susano's weapons reflect that.
 

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
You cannot just make a statement out of blue when there is no evidence to back up your words
Agreed.

A weapon who no one can find
You cannot take susano or it's part.
So what are these then?

Anyway, to properly address your points . . .

A weapon who no one can find. A weapon that had been heard about but only was seen when Itachi manifested susano which is actually his own chakra manifestation.

Orochimaru having heard something doesn't equal to knowing everything. He might have heard about it and didn't realize what kind of sword it was.

Exactly, how is it fundamentally separate from Itachi and can be taken? If it was a normal weapon anyone could collect it from his body when he died. That was not the case. You cannot just make a statement out of blue when there is no evidence to back up your words. It's a weapon which is held by susano Itachi manifested and it was made of Itachi's chakra. It clearly depicted in similar form and disappears along with Susano. You cannot take susano or it's part.

We have seen that a susano wields weapons similar to disposition of the user. Sasuke uses thunder and lightening and his susano manifested Indra's bow. Indra is associated with thunder lightening and rains. Itachi is deadly but by nature he was said to be pacifist. It was said that he avoided fights as much as he could. When he couldn't, he would end the fight as quickly as possible, all the while holding himself back as much as possible. And his susano's weapons reflect that.
The fact that it is known specifically proves it is separate and known. Also, that Orochimaru knew about it tells of it being separate. Do you hear of Sasuke's chakra bow being heard about? No. The same with Madara and his chakra sword.

When did anyone claim he knew everything? What point is premised on him knowing everything? Or are you implying someone must be truly omniscient otherwise absolutely everything they say is worthless? I even acknowledged this in the last post and said he knew better than most

We are told it is a spirit weapon. The chakra armour is made of chakra, not spirit. So that proves a fundamental difference. That combined with worldly knowledge of it by characters Itachi would have done the most to hide things from - Zetsu and Orochimaru - implies the tool exists on its own. Outside the story, the elemental mirror, sealing blade and grass cutter blade are directly inspired by the Japanese imperial treasures. So if one of them is its own weapon, then the other two are probably the same. Back within the story, Zetsu likens the sealing blade to the one Orochimaru has, again implying they are their own blades, not inherently tied to Itachi. Finally, Itachi himself never calls it his own chakra sword. He calls it by name to Nagato, implying a unique quality to it, that it is separate from him.

That was after Sasuke awakened his ancestral connection, not something every Uchiha has. The fact that it is even named after the guy is proof. Finally, the fact that the first arrows Sasuke used had no such similarity is proof of this.
 

Avani

Legendary
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
19,609
Kin
3,746💸
Kumi
261💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
So what are these then?

Anyway, to properly address your points
Logical deduction instead of making claims out of blue like totsuka being a blade separately that could be found and used by anyone.
Did anyone locate it after Itachi's death? If it was a sword to be picked that easily and not part of Itachi's susano, where did it go? It's the third time I am asking this.

Add another one: When and where Sasuke picked Indra's bow?

Unless you can show us susano users having to find weapons to be used, my point stands.

What do you think a spirit weapon is in Naruto series? When it was introduced first, it was called spirit weapon but was not explained. It was said it's a weapon that susano wields. Kishi diversified since & gave Sasuke a fancy bow. So each susano is getting it's own weapon and we know Sasuke got his bow right away, without having to search for one.
In the manga, the sword appeared as an ethereal blade composed of liquid, and was carried in a gourd. When wielded it looked like chakra is that particular shape, not a separate part. For all we know Susano manifests it's own version.
Sealing Blade for Itachi. Bow for Sasuke. Because I do not remember any other way Sasuke getting his bow. And I do not see any explanation to why else it looks like extension of Susano, only if it's not so.
 

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Logical deduction instead of making claims out of blue like totsuka being a blade separately that could be found and used by anyone.
Did anyone locate it after Itachi's death? If it was a sword to be picked that easily and not part of Itachi's susano, where did it go? It's the third time I am asking this.

Add another one: When and where Sasuke picked Indra's bow?

Unless you can show us susano users having to find weapons to be used, my point stands.

What do you think a spirit weapon is in Naruto series? When it was introduced first, it was called spirit weapon but was not explained. It was said it's a weapon that susano wields. Kishi diversified since & gave Sasuke a fancy bow. So each susano is getting it's own weapon and we know Sasuke got his bow right away, without having to search for one.
In the manga, the sword appeared as an ethereal blade composed of liquid, and was carried in a gourd. When wielded it looked like chakra is that particular shape, not a separate part. For all we know Susano manifests it's own version.
Sealing Blade for Itachi. Bow for Sasuke. Because I do not remember any other way Sasuke getting his bow. And I do not see any explanation to why else it looks like extension of Susano, only if it's not so.
So its a logical deduction when you basically say: "show me someone else holding it" and you began your case by simply stating an opinion . . .
spirit weapon it uses is part of him. An extension of his will. Sasuke's Susano manifested a bow. Whom do you think it belongs?
But when i use multiple lines of reasoning, from differences in nature (spirit vs chakra) to knowledge of others (Orochimaru and Zetsu) and even find fault in your arguements (Chakra arrow came after Sasuke gained Six Paths powers), its just "claims out of the blue"?

Why should i even continue?
Post automatically merged:

Anyway

Main Reasoning:
1. Being searched for carries the premise of being a standalone object
2. Being searched for and known about implies not being inherently attached to any individual, ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT INDIVIDUAL IS 3 DECADES YOUNGER THAN YOU
3. In Naruto, chakra is composed of physical and spiritual energies, so spirit is different from chakra.
4. That said, being made out of spirit when the normal armour is made of chakra implies being separate
5. Being specially named implies being separate from the normal, in this case such that the sealing blade is separate from the chakra armour
6. The phrase: "you had it all along", implies it can be had by different parties

Counters to counter-arguements:
1. Sasuke is a special case with his ancestral spirits
2. That his arrow is specifically named after said ancestor implies it is the direct result of it
3. The arrow Sasuke used was originally pure chakra, as seen with Danzo and Kakashi fights. This further implies that the change came because of awakening ancestral powers
4. Madara didn't have a special weapon
5. All known normal cases of the Uchiha chakra armour work with basic chakra weapons, not weapons with special effects
6. Weapons can be sealed or morphed into the body/spirit, as we saw with the Amber Sealing Pot and Crimson Gourd of the SoSP, as well as the Longsword of the Sky
7. Itachi is capable of sealing things in others as we saw with the Black Flames that he sealed into the eyes of Sasuke
8. Itachi can move separately from his chakra armour, as we saw against Nagato, so simply finding the body would not reveal the tools. It is the armour that keeps them
9. Normative (factual) statements require evidence to support them. A lack of counter evidence or reasoning (imagination) does not qualify as supporting evidence
 
Last edited:

Avani

Legendary
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
19,609
Kin
3,746💸
Kumi
261💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
So its a logical deduction when you basically say: "show me someone else holding it" and you began your case by simply stating an opinion . . .
I am following facts that are available not assumptions.

The two components of chakra are physical energy and spiritual energy. Hogomaoro is said to have distributed chakra to connect people's spiritual energy to understand one another without talking. Totsuka trapps the person in a genjutsu-like "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity.

3rd Databook's describes Susanoo—the ocular powers used to materialize it, and the items it wields. Here they are called spiritual weapons not spirit weapons. I guess this explanation was necessary to make it clear to people who get confused with word spirit. We are reading translations of a manga and databook where writer himself and translators edited his descriptions a bit over the years. And you are trying to use inconclusive vague and old statement of Oro and Zetsu.

Orochimaru said "Where did you find it ?", because he never knew that sword of Totsuka could belong to susano. That's why he could never find it. As for Sasuke's susano - he was too weak in the beginning. It got better and stronger with time.

The only other susano we saw were all wielded by experts, Shisui, Itachi and Madara etc. Kakashi's belonged to Obito. But seeing Sasuke's susano was able to hold one of the mythical spiritual weapons, without having to find it personally, it's fair to assume that one doesn't go dungeon hopping to get weapons for susano. When manifested, susano either makes a version of it for itself. We can go on a limb and make a theory that it summons the weapon from where ever they come from- but even the summoned weapon would depend their own MS abilities and chakra.

But when i use multiple lines of reasoning, from differences in nature (spirit vs chakra) to knowledge of others (Orochimaru and Zetsu) and even find fault in your arguements (Chakra arrow came after Sasuke gained Six Paths powers), its just "claims out of the blue"?
In other words chakra arrow came when he had advanced enough and gotten better control over his powers etc. Spiritual weapon is not explained apart from chakra however it's drawn as extension of personal susano.

As said before: Maybe one can model his Susano'o's weapons after one of the legendary items, according to their spirityual nature. Or the differences in Susano'o stem from the ocular jutsu used to achieve it. Itachi uses Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu and achieves the Totsuka no Tsurugi and the Yata no Kagami, while Sasuke uses Amaterasu and Enton and achieves the bow and arrow. Only thing we know that there is no talk of having to look for a weapon to be used by susano anywhere. But some kind of blade is common.

Why should i even continue?
I can not tell you why or if you should continue making theories on what spirit and chakra are when there is no explanation for "spirit" in Naruto and subsequent translations callt he weapons spiritual weapon.
Post automatically merged:

Anyway

Main Reasoning:
1. Being searched for carries the premise of being a standalone object
2. Being searched for and known about implies not being inherently attached to any individual, ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT INDIVIDUAL IS 3 DECADES YOUNGER THAN YOU
3. In Naruto, chakra is composed of physical and spiritual energies, so spirit is different from chakra.
4. That said, being made out of spirit when the normal armour is made of chakra implies being separate
5. Being specially named implies being separate from the normal, in this case such that the sealing blade is separate from the chakra armour
6. The phrase: "you had it all along", implies it can be had by different parties
1. Fruitless search done in ignorance and not knowing that how to manifest or summon one. Someone else may have weilded Totsuka in long line of warriors and Oro may have heard about it. Sasuke had to get stronger and more experienced before he could even make a proper skeleton.
2. And yet that individual was more powerful and able to manifest it. Orochimaro wasted his time.
You must be registered to see images

3. Aagain later translation uses the word spritual only and makes the assumptions about "spirit" being a separate thing in Naruto series. I repeat:
The two components of chakra are physical energy and spiritual energy. Hogomaoro is said to have distributed chakra to connect people's spiritual energy to understand one another without talking. Totsuka trapps the person in a genjutsu-like "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity.
4. As already said multiple times talk about this mysterious element "spirit" is redundant.
5. Not really. "Implies" is not just enough in this context.
6. it only implies ignorance about the full nature of the sword. when it comes to Itachi and his mangkyu abilities, Oro always got surprised, lost his hand or himself.


Counters to counter-arguements:
1. Sasuke is a special case with his ancestral spirits
2. That his arrow is specifically named after said ancestor implies it is the direct result of it
3. The arrow Sasuke used was originally pure chakra, as seen with Danzo and Kakashi fights. This further implies that the change came because of awakening ancestral powers
4. Madara didn't have a special weapon
5. All known normal cases of the Uchiha chakra armour work with basic chakra weapons, not weapons with special effects
6. Weapons can be sealed or morphed into the body/spirit, as we saw with the Amber Sealing Pot and Crimson Gourd of the SoSP, as well as the Longsword of the Sky
7. Itachi is capable of sealing things in others as we saw with the Black Flames that he sealed into the eyes of Sasuke
8. Itachi can move separately from his chakra armour, as we saw against Nagato, so simply finding the body would not reveal the tools. It is the armour that keeps them
9. Normative (factual) statements require evidence to support them. A lack of counter evidence or reasoning (imagination) does not qualify as supporting evidence
1. Assumption.
2. No it doesn't. Indra's bow is a mythical weapon just like other spiritul weapons. He is a guardian deity in Buddhism, as well as a diety in Hinduism, Jainism and Kalash religions.
3. Uchiha Occular power. How do you decide his arrow are chakra but not Itachi's sword when it's drawn as such?
4. He did. He used that Yasaka Magatama similar to Itachi. Besides Susano weilds weapons according to user manifesting it.
5. What normal cases? Indra, Madara, Itachi, Sasuke, Obito... who is normal person here? How many susano we see? Shisui was weakest and so was his Susano. Sasuke's got stronger as he got stronger and got better control on it.
6. Not all weapons are the same. Also SO6P seems to have left his weapons behind deliberately. But susanos disappear along with their weapons when a person dies.
7. And?
8. Yeah an armour made of his chakra keeping the weapons which also look like being made of same material as chakra not a physical body.
9. That's why my statements have support. Yours are assumption or Outdated/partial information or outright misinformation.

And all this because you want to deny Itachi credit of even having the skill to use it.
  • You started by questioning his ability to use the word and control over it and implied anyone can just snatch it if used in battle.
  • You put him below Zabuza. Zabuza who was beaten by Kakashi. The same Kakashi who got his arse handed to him by Itachi on his return.
  • You claimed Itachi who became Anbu captain at 12 and was shown in anime to have more speed and control as a youger kid than Orochimaru was less skilled with his sword.
You asked : Can it not really be said that Itachi is just the guy who starts off with the sealing blade in a fight, and not so much the owner of it? If the only known weilder is Itachi's chakra manifestation Susano but you are twisting things six ways to Sunday to somehow deny him the ownership which he clearly has. You forget what chakra is even.

There is another thread where you are doing the same to Sakura- saying she is fast and strong but it's not a skill- neither gifted nor acquired. What did those two do to you? Stole your dogs?
 

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I am following facts that are available not assumptions.
What part of "show me" is a fact?

The two components of chakra are physical energy and spiritual energy. Hogomaoro is said to have distributed chakra to connect people's spiritual energy to understand one another without talking. Totsuka trapps the person in a genjutsu-like "world of drunken dreams" for all eternity.
What's the point of this ramble?

Did i claim chakra isn't like this?



3rd Databook's describes Susanoo—the ocular powers used to materialize it, and the items it wields. Here they are called spiritual weapons not spirit weapons. I guess this explanation was necessary to make it clear to people who get confused with word spirit. We are reading translations of a manga and databook where writer himself and translators edited his descriptions a bit over the years. And you are trying to use inconclusive vague and old statement of Oro and Zetsu.
Technically, there is a difference between spirit and spiritual. In this context, is there a difference?

Is anything conclusive. Seriously man, you've just strawmanned me, attacked my intentions, even accusing me of just downplaying Sakura in the other thread and you don't even address my points directly.

Im done with you
 

Avani

Legendary
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
Messages
19,609
Kin
3,746💸
Kumi
261💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
What part of "show me" is a fact?


What's the point of this ramble?

Did i claim chakra isn't like this?
I din't think I had to spoon feed it.

You surely seem to have forgotten spiritual part of it. Chakra that's a mix of spiritual and physical energy, is depicted manifesting spiritual weapons. It maybe that some or all of them can be summoned in physical existence but some like Totsuka have been weilded by Susano and as chakra blade only.

Technically, there is a difference between spirit and spiritual. In thnis context, is there a difference?
Technically concept of "spirit" is not used in Naruto. Spiritual energy and spiritual weapon but not spirit itself.

Is anything conclusive. Seriously man, you've just strawmanned me, attacked my intentions, even accusing me of just downplaying Sakura in the other thread and you don't even address my points directly.

Im done with you
When I said show me- I asked you to back up your claim that totsuka was a weapon that could be found and used by anyone else like you claimed.

You just do not like that you couldn't find anything to support claims about "spirit".

Conclusive? You asked can it not really be said that Itachi is just the guy who starts off with the sealing blade in a fight, and not so much the owner of it? I explained why I consider he is the owner of the blade. Your conclusions are yours but you cannot use arguments like "spiritual weapons are made of spirit that is something other than chakra", when spirit is not explained as a thing in Naruto. Well technically you can, but then others can put it down.

Strawman? Nope. You got plenty of opportunity to make your case but when you start insisting that a character is fast and strong but it's not a skill because they had to train to acquire it. But when it was pointed that Rock Lee is another such character you said "it comes from training" . So that definition of skill was very character specific for you which you accepted or denied arbitrarily despite opposite depiction in the series. Similarly when it was pointed that Sasuke's susano can wield bow and he didn't go looking for it either, you declared he was special. You claimed Madara didn't have any spritual weapon when he used same spiritual neckless as Itachi. You denied Sakura's skill (acquired through training) on flimsy grounds while not rock Lee. Similarly, you say Itachi's totsuka is not his but Sasuke's bow belongs to Sasuke. That's inconsistent behaviour displayed twice. That starting of a pattern.

Your last sentence is completely false statement seeing I addresses all your points in great details in last reply.

Good. It was getting ridiculous.
 

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I din't think I had to spoon feed it.

You surely seem to have forgotten spiritual part of it. Chakra that's a mix of spiritual and physical energy, is depicted manifesting spiritual weapons. It maybe that some or all of them can be summoned in physical existence but some like Totsuka have been weilded by Susano and as chakra blade only.



Technically concept of "spirit" is not used in Naruto. Spiritual energy and spiritual weapon but not spirit itself.



When I said show me- I asked you to back up your claim that totsuka was a weapon that could be found and used by anyone else like you claimed.

You just do not like that you couldn't find anything to support claims about "spirit".

Conclusive? You asked can it not really be said that Itachi is just the guy who starts off with the sealing blade in a fight, and not so much the owner of it? I explained why I consider he is the owner of the blade. Your conclusions are yours but you cannot use arguments like "spiritual weapons are made of spirit that is something other than chakra", when spirit is not explained as a thing in Naruto. Well technically you can, but then others can put it down.

Strawman? Nope. You got plenty of opportunity to make your case but when you start insisting that a character is fast and strong but it's not a skill because they had to train to acquire it. But when it was pointed that Rock Lee is another such character you said "it comes from training" . So that definition of skill was very character specific for you which you accepted or denied arbitrarily despite opposite depiction in the series. Similarly when it was pointed that Sasuke's susano can wield bow and he didn't go looking for it either, you declared he was special. You claimed Madara didn't have any spritual weapon when he used same spiritual neckless as Itachi. You denied Sakura's skill (acquired through training) on flimsy grounds while not rock Lee. Similarly, you say Itachi's totsuka is not his but Sasuke's bow belongs to Sasuke. That's inconsistent behaviour displayed twice. That starting of a pattern.

Your last sentence is completely false statement seeing I addresses all your points in great details in last reply.

Good. It was getting ridiculous.
We'll settle this after a private discussion
 

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
You must be registered for see images

Well, i tried to sort this out amicably but i was shot down for it (further proof that this is not a matter of conviction, because conviction ultimately works for the greator good)

Throughout our discussions, @Avani has been offensive and berating me, not simply expressing disagreement but calling my points "absurd" and such so as to make it sound like im wierd or crazy for even thinking those things.
But... that statement is absurd.
What next? According to your argument, Rock Lee has no skill either.
instead of making claims out of blue
And you are trying to use inconclusive vague and old statement of Oro and Zetsu.
I can not tell you why or if you should continue making theories on what spirit and chakra are when there is no explanation for "spirit"
you want to deny Itachi credit
Yours are assumption or Outdated/partial information or outright misinformation.
you are twisting things six ways to Sunday to somehow deny him the ownership which he clearly has. You forget what chakra is even.
What did those two do to you? Stole your dogs?
It's unbecoming
I din't think I had to spoon feed it.
You just do not like that you couldn't find anything to support claims
Your last sentence is completely false statement seeing I addresses all your points in great details in last reply.

Good. It was getting ridiculous

In the talent thread, OP gave definitions for each category, taking paragraphs to do just that. Avani didn't use those but worked on a different definition and proceeded to attack me.
That is done by clarifying what is meant by talent. That is done by comparing and contrasting it with related terms, namely ability, skill and gifts.
Skill is not what you do, but how well you do it. It is a measure of finesse or level of execution, not the execution in itself. For example, two people can cut, but the one who achieves a more accurate cut is considered more skilled at cutting. Because the application of skill is both practical and leads directly to a result while directly giving birth to a process, it is said that a process based on skill is 'a skill'.
Speed and strength that comes form training yourself is called an acquired skill. Anything you learn to do by training is a skill.
You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images

You must be registered to see images
In the last worthwhile reply, Avani finally answered properly (i was actually going to 'Like' that post . . . ), but then ended with this
It's unbecoming to do such verbal acrobatics just to deny her the skills and talent she showed over the years
Firstly an attack on my person, with 'unbecoming'. Secondly an accusation of dishonesty/deception with 'verbal acrobatics'. Then an accusation of bias with 'just to deny Sakura', particularly the 'just' part, which sets it down that it is the only intended agenda and nothing else. The last part about skills and talents proves that Avani either didn't read OP (where definition is given) or didn't bother to. If Avani has proven too smart and vindictive to have missed my points, so im sure they read. That then means they never intended to have discussions, but rather just to attack me.

I had a small feeling of being attacked from the first replies in either thread by Avani (you can read the tone of the posts), but i thought to give a chance and see what discussion we can have. Now i see that Avani even mentioned strawmanned opinions, taken out of context, from other threads and it is obvious Avani already came in here with a mentality to attack me because Avani viewed my character as a whole as something bad. Now it would be one thing if a random poster did that. It would be another thing if a major poster did that. But when it is a forum leader? Especially in the one place where you will find the best discussion on Naruto topics? Yes, it hurts.

Just to round it off, i will show the pattern in this thread as well

The accusations about me making assumtpions are clearly attacks because technically everything we say is either an assumption or based on an assumption. So it only works to make an impression of me being biased because it has no factual usefulness in a theoretical discussion.

The statement (made in fine print, for some reason) about the statement from Orochimaru being old is again just mind games, because age does not even determine the quality of a fact. It is also factually misleading because the statement is from the Shippuden part and has not been directly replaced. So it is both factually misleading and technically incorrect (old is relative to young, if there is nothing new, then something is not old because there is nothing young to relate it to). Now Avani is smart enough to know basic principles of comparisons and such, so why else say these things unless its mind games?

Even now Avani says that I'm just 'dragging on'. Firstly, that is a subjective idea being used as though with objective meaning and as ground to dismiss something. Even so, Avani chooses to say 'dragging on', which is an offensive/derogatory form of maintaining or carrying on, which suggests an offensive intention on their part from the start. And in the context of the discussion, i aimed to address conviction, which was not only the basis of our disagreement but a new thing introduced/revealed in the thread, never mind being behind why the discussion was stopped. Dragging on is when there is nothing meaningful to add. The importance of conviction to this thread made it the most immune to the idea of being dragged on!

And you know what, i thought i was talking to a person. Conviction applies even outside of these discussions. Talking about it with people is basic humanity.

And even looking at those opinions from other threads. If you have such a thing as conviction, why not challenge those views in those threads you saw them in? Instead you just reference because you know many will see them and think less of me, just to ridicule. Is that your conviction?

Its one thing to disagree, but what you have done? Makes me nauseous!
 

Moxxi

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
18,016
Kin
127💸
Kumi
60💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
Where does it says it's a blade anyone can wield? It's a spirit weapon- a liquid blade which takes it's shape when need arises and a Susano manifested by an Ms user is wielding it.

Orochimaru may have heard about it and looking for it doesn't mean he knew everything about it. He didn't find it till it pierced him, did he? Or I am forgetting some details? I may have.. it's been years. But I don't think one could get the blade just like that. No one found it beside the body and picked it up after Itachi died. Itachi wielded it even after his death.
This sums up what I was going to say. After this, discussion should be over.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Avani

Infant

Active member
Regular
Joined
Jan 9, 2020
Messages
846
Kin
2,608💸
Kumi
849💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
This sums up what I was going to say. After this, discussion should be over.
Its never been said that anyone can wield other blades either, sl that's not a point.

On the other hand, no other weapon associated with the chakra armour has ever been separately named or searched for.

The idea of a character needing full knowledge in order to comment on something is bad based on reality itself. We know thing despite limits.
Even so, Orochimaru and Zetsu are two of the most knowledgeable characters with the highest rep for it. So if they imply something, it means a lot.

After that, you need a counter implication or counter evidence.

We've seen Orochimaru himself keep a weapon in his body, we've seen Itachi seal techniques into other people, we've seen people become beast hosts. Two things being joined together does not mean they are fundamentally connected or somesuch, as is being argued here.
 
Top