[Discussion] Should Byakuya have died (pole inside)
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NaNaNaaaaa
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That is all very well, but it is the whiny fanbase that spends all there money and attention, upset them and your on packet noodles. Keeping your convictions as an artist is fine if you are not going to go mainstream, if you want the money of mainstream work then you can't complain about the fanbase wanting the story they way they want it.I'm pretty sure most people stopped reading because the Fullbring arc sucked balls. When I said fangirls, I was including guys in that statement too. I have never seen more outrage and tears than when Byakuya was killed. Why should Kubo be disrespected just because he doesn't cater to his fans all the time? That's not arrogance, that's sticking to your convictions as an artist. When you compromise your own art to appease a vocal and whiny fanbase, that's when you lose my respect.
Ha! The jokes on you because all my faves are already dead!........
People think a story belongs to the writer, it doesn't it belongs to the reader, it is there money, there time, there tears, there passion that feeds that story that makes it worthwhile. If you want to be some bohemian then don't put your work out there as mainstream, poop on the fans that are paying for your posh car and plethora of sunglasses and use art as an excuse. He is drawing Manga he is not Damien Hirst or banksy. Kubo ruined Bleach for the people that poured there heart and money into it, he decided to draw mainstream no one forced his arm, he could have stuck to artistic manga but he didn't.
Bleach went downhill for a lot of reasons one of those was because he changed the feel of the manga from light hearted, great action, no good guy dies, to lets kill everyone off, you don't do that to a fanbase that's majority, lets be honest, are not looking for depth of storyline.
You can't write mainstream and then try to turn it into literature, they each attract a different fanbase, Kubo tried to make Bleach more serious and that was his mistake, now he is in a hole and just keeps digging deeper. Bleach wasn't broken when he tried to fix it, he broke it himself.
Kubo is one of the best manga artists, he is also one of the best character creators, well he was until recently, pepe is unforgivable but he made dire mistakes, you change the story you loose the fans, part of me hates his guts the other part feels sorry for a man I once respected.
That's my opinion for what it is worth, which isn't much.
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Do you realize how ****ing entitled you sound? Bleach does NOT belong to his fans. Most of the fans who ***** (online at least) don't even pay for the manga. Even if you do pay that doesn't mean your criticisms and complaints should influence Kubo to the point where he changes the direction of his art. It's up to Kubo's discretion whether he wants to listen to feedback and to what degree he alters his art because of it. Art belongs to the creator, be it mainstream or some obscure indie series. Your right as a fan is to read/watch Bleach and give your opinion on what you experienced. It ends there. To act like Kubo should feel obligated to cater to the masses just because he made a popular shonen is absurd.
You don't like that some characters have been killed off? Well guess what? A lot of people wish death were more prevalent in Bleach. A lot of people liked the serious tone from the first Quincy invasion. Your opinions are no more valid than anyone else's, especially not Kubo's. You're welcome to share your opinion but don't act like Kubo should cater to your or anyone else's entitled ass. You mentioned the tears and passion that his fans put into reading the series? Do you have any idea how much effort goes into being a mangaka? Let alone a part of the WSJ? My God your entitlement is over 9000. I can't even....
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Forbidden Tale
Active member
Kubo is better artist, than writter. His SS and HM arc were good written but after that he messed up, Editors said that he should not kill Grimmjow early in the series, they said to him that he need to give Espada better development. In bleach omake, Kubo said that he always wanted to the War arc and that whole manga was supposed to be like that, you don't have to be genius to see that Kubo didn't plan all this, that's why some fans complain about plot holes, they exist and that's because Kubo changed whole direction in which manga should go.
The whole war to me feel more like Seinen than Shonen and probably whole manga was supposed to be that way.
Fans made the manga, without them manga is nothing, so fans have right from criticm. WIthout fans, in how much copies would Bleach be sold?
Bleach's sales currently are nothing comparo to HM arc.
The whole war to me feel more like Seinen than Shonen and probably whole manga was supposed to be that way.
Fans made the manga, without them manga is nothing, so fans have right from criticm. WIthout fans, in how much copies would Bleach be sold?
Bleach's sales currently are nothing comparo to HM arc.
NaNaNaaaaa
Active member
I'm a writer and was expressing my opinions based on my feeling as a writer, when I write I write for anyone that may read it in mind because to me writing for the enjoyment of the person that enjoys it is what is important to me, which of course colours my opinion.
Of course my opinions are no more valid than anyone elses, everyone has a different opinion that they are entitled to and which is as valid as anyone elses.
My problem with Bleach is that it started off as one story and turned into another, of course I have the right to stop reading which I have done but unfortunately so did the majority of others and it makes me sad that a once popular manga has degraded because of that. Some fans may like death but Bleach is a mainstream comic aimed at boys between 12 and 15 and when you right for mainstream and that age group you cannot do what Kubo did and expect to remain popular that it just the way working in mainstream works. No artist or writer can be mainstream without keeping there fans in mind.
But that is just my opinion, as a writer I believe that 70% of any work that I create that is read belongs to the people that write it, which is just my opinion.
Agreed. I think Kubo wanted the popularity and money of mainstream manga but not the confinements of the storytelling, well, he shot himself in the foot.
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Fans didn't make the manga you idiot. Kubo did. His work. His effort. His creativity. Fans read and discuss the manga. That's where the mangaka/fandom relationship ends. Being a fan or a writer doesn't make you entitled to alter someone's art through your criticisms, you say your piece and that's that. All this backlash when something controversial happens sets a bad precedent if Kubo decides to alter his work because a bunch of fans got whiny. His editors are constraints that he has to work under as a mangaka, that doesn't mean by extension his fans can nitpick and complain with the expectations that Kubo should listen to them.
Oh and before you start blowing the editors just to discredit Kubo, they've also hindered the manga at times by rushing him. That's why we never got Ginjou's backstory during the fullbring arc. Kubo isn't perfect but your inflated sense of self worth as a fan is nauseating.
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Forbidden Tale
Active member
First, think little harder before saying "idiot" next time.
You didn't answer my question: "How many copies would Bleach sold without fans?".
Fullbring arc is one more not good thing coming from Bleach. Ginjo's is still in the manga, he is not dead (well he is in HM, but he is alive in SS), so there is a plenty of time to see his backstory, that was hinted in omake.
I never complaimed about Kubo's work before Fullbring arc and I liked war during First Invasion, between invasions and beginning of 2nd invasion, there isn't much objections I had about it. But what Kubo is doing now is horrible and sales support my opinion.
You didn't answer my question: "How many copies would Bleach sold without fans?".
Fullbring arc is one more not good thing coming from Bleach. Ginjo's is still in the manga, he is not dead (well he is in HM, but he is alive in SS), so there is a plenty of time to see his backstory, that was hinted in omake.
I never complaimed about Kubo's work before Fullbring arc and I liked war during First Invasion, between invasions and beginning of 2nd invasion, there isn't much objections I had about it. But what Kubo is doing now is horrible and sales support my opinion.
I didn't have to think very hard because your idiocy was just that blatant. Saying the fans made Bleach is perhaps the most nauseating self entitled thing I have read on this forum. Bleach is meant to be a paid service. You get to experience the art once you pay for it. Then you get to express your opinion of it. That's how it works! It's not like the fans are forking out money and getting nothing in return. If they stop liking it they can continue to read and complain or drop it altogether. A lot of people don't even pay for Bleach at all and STILL have this sense of entitlement that you and Nanana are demonstrating.
I'm not getting into a debate with you over the fullbring arc. I didn't like it either. I was just using the Ginjou Backstory example of when the editors actually hindered the manga. Because you made it seem like the editors and fans knew better than Kubo in your last post. Our opinions are our opinions, you shouldn't act like the fans opinions should hold so much weight that Kubo should abide by them. He's the artist and you're reading/watching HIS art. Just remember that.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
To buy something you need to be interested in it. You won't buy something just like that. To know that it's good, you must read it somewhere, or someone recommended for you.
Bleach without fans would be canceled after 3 volumes.
Your point about Fullbringer arc/Ginjo is vague and weak since Ginjo is still present.
Maybe you are limited, or I need to draw it to you. When I said "Fans made Bleach" I don't think that they are the one who literally made it, they are the ones who made it popular, the ones who discussed about it on forums and reccommeded to future fans. Again without them, Bleach would be canceled after 3 volumes.
Bleach without fans would be canceled after 3 volumes.
Your point about Fullbringer arc/Ginjo is vague and weak since Ginjo is still present.
Maybe you are limited, or I need to draw it to you. When I said "Fans made Bleach" I don't think that they are the one who literally made it, they are the ones who made it popular, the ones who discussed about it on forums and reccommeded to future fans. Again without them, Bleach would be canceled after 3 volumes.
You don't know if you're going to like something at a restaurant if you've never tried it before. If you try it and don't like the taste are you entitled to a refund? No! If you order a dish you like this week but next week chef makes it slightly differently, would you be entitled to a refund even though you still got what your ordered? No! I'm not trying to shame people who pirate, I'm just pointing out that a lot of entitlement comes from fans who haven't spent a penny on the series.
Yeah genius. If no one reads Bleach Kubo would go out of business. What's your ****ing point? My example is weak IN YOUR OPINION, I don't think it is because it was due to the editors decision that we didn't get to hear Ginjou's backstory at the end of the Fullbring arc. Which made the entire ordeal feel like a waste of time. All that nonsense and the only thing that happened was Ichigo getting his powers back. An entire arc for that horeshit. Why should we have to wait for the next arc to hear the full backstory of the main villain of the previous arc? The answer in this case would be the editors. The same editors you were acting as if had a better sense of direction than Kubo.
You said fans made Bleach, obviously you meant fans made Bleach what is is (as in this successful). But that's still an arrogant way to look at it and you're dismissing the effort Kubo puts into his manga. Which far outweighs the effort and money it takes to buy a chapter and talk about it. Bleach is worth exactly what it makes or else it wouldn't make as much. It's really that simple. You're the limited and obnoxious one who can't admit to their own arrogance. Even if Bleach didn't make a profit that still wouldn't make the fan's opinion anymore valuable to his art, just his profit. You could do all sorts of degrading things for money, compromising your art just to boost sales and appease whiny fans sets a bad precedent. Because it breeds the mentality that you & nanana share that it's okay to act like a self entitled brat.
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kotoamatsukami
Active member
I still need that proof please...Byakuya was never going to die in the first place an zero squad made sure of that.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
Forbidden Tale
Active member
1. You will usually ask someone, is that think good before tring it.
2. Even if some fans didn't spent any of the series, why do you care?
Just because it's free for some people, doesn't mean it gets a pass from criticisms. I don't see why would anyone overlook its flaws and just focus on the positive. Also how do you know that some of them don't pay for Bleach?
3.
Exacly the point. If fans never supported Bleach, Bleach would be long gone, so saying that fans are irrelevant or didn't do anything about Bleach is most stupid thing.
4. Kubo has said that his role will be large and also we didn't got Aizen's backstrory either, so will you blame editors for it as well?
5. I'm not dismissing effort Kubo put in Bleach, I'm dismissing your effort to put a couple of bad words. When Bleach is good, I like it, when Bleach is not, of course I'm going to critice is.
Same when you are buying a chocolate. If chocolate was good, you will like it, if it's not will say: "nevermind, the guy in the factory put effort in it", or will you complain about it? When your best friend want to buy that same chocolate, will you say to him "Just buy it, guy in factory put effort in making it" or will you say "Don't buy it, it's not really good"?
6. I've never complained about Kubo's art, I'm complaining about his story writting.
7. If Kubo is going to say "Fck fans, I still has sales to finish Bleach", that's it's okay. I'm just curiuos what will happen with his next manga he could make after Bleach, ofc, if WSJ allow him to the manga after this.
kotoamatsukami
Active member
1. You have a right to express your displeasure with something you've ordered at a restaurant, that doesn't mean you're entitled to a refund. I never said that pirating manga means you can't critique it. I just made the point that a lot of people with this entitled consumer attitude don't even pay for Bleach in the first place. Because you were the one who brought up how Bleach would be nothing without his fans, as if Kubo should listen to them more just because he gets paid for his hard work.
2. Again, I never said you couldn't criticize Bleach if you pirate it. I said that NO ONE should be able to dictate the way Kubo writes his manga just because they consume it in some way, shape or form. Especially because Bleach is his art. You can share your criticisms all you want, no one is trying to take that away from you.
3. I never said fans are irrelevant you ****ing retard! My problem is with people like you who act like Kubo should have to compromise his art to cater to his fans. Whether you buy Bleach or read it online you don't have that kind of direct control of someone else's art. How much or little Kubo listens to his fans is up to his discretion. The Byakuya rumors that we both admitted to believing in this thread are a good example of Kubo compromising his art due to whiny fans. It sets a bad precedent if he doesn't stick to his guns.
4. I was just using the Ginjou backstory as an example of when the editors hindered the manga. I never said Kubo didn't make mistakes when left to his own devices. Besides, unlike the fullbring arc, Aizen didn't feel like a gigantic waste of time. I wanted more backstory from him too but at least the plot was (mostly imo) entertaining when it revolved around Aizen and his ambitions. The Fullbringers weren't very interesting and the entire arc felt dull until Ichigo got his powers back. That was the only thing worth mentioning from that arc. If we got Ginjou's backstory then and there like Kubo intended then it would have added SOME meaning to that arc beyond Ichigo getting his shinigami powers back again.
5. I don't have a problem with you criticizing it. I have a problem with your self entitled attitude and remarks which I brought up earlier. You're backtracking on your own statements and putting words in my mouth. I never faulted you or anyone else for criticizing Bleach. I only had a problem with nanana saying Bleach belongs to its fans and that Kubo shouldn't be respected as a mangaka because he doesn't listen to them more. I have a problem with you saying stupid shit like "Fans made the manga, without them manga is nothin", that's verbatim what you said. Don't backtrack on your own statements and put words in my mouth. I never faulted anyone for critcizing Bleach. Just the people that act like Kubo should have to adhere to their criticisms. He's the artist and it's HIS manga.
6. How can you be this stupid? Manga is art! Not just the pretty panels that Kubo draws. The entire creative process is art, from thinking of characters to putting the dialogue on paper. Art isn't just drawings, I was obviously referring to Bleach in general which is Kubo's art.
7. How is Kubo saying "**** fans" just because he doesn't always please them? I'm not saying he's doing a good job with Bleach lately but you're attacking his integrity with statements like that.
Anyway I'll try and sum it up as simple as possible so you can't mince my words anymore.
Criticizing/complaining/*****ing about Bleach does not = entitlement.
Spouting off nonsense like "Fans made the manga, without them manga is nothin" DOES = entitlement. That's verbatim what you said and that's the kind of attitude I have a problem with. It's very dismissive of the work Kubo puts into his manga even though we don't like it at times. I don't think fans are worthless but you are clearly putting too much stock in the fans opinions if you think Kubo should have to listen to them.
Forbidden Tale
Active member
To be fair I didn't read your comment, I don't intent to do so, just look at it and I see *** in every point. You should give more argument instead of insult, buy now.