[Theory] Shinju

Rabbit Teth · Sep 8, 2014

I thought for this theory that I’d focus on the God Tree and how it ties together the major players and storylines. We know pieces of the Shinju story but we don’t have the big picture yet. To connect the dots and fill in the gaps, I’m going to put forward a series of speculative ideas supported by varying degrees with the manga and real life beliefs from world religions (a source of much of Kishi's material).

The stories of both Ninshuu and Ninjutsu start and end with the fruit. I think that the Shinju encompasses the stories of Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamura, all the Bijuu, White Zetsu (in all his incarnations), Mokuton, Samehada, Orochimaru, Naruto and Sasuke. This is again a stupidly long thread and if you’re offended by walls of text or potential spoilers then turn away now. A lot of these ideas are found in some of my earlier theories but I've updated and expanded on them here.

Origins

The Tree is based on myths that are at the foundations of all the world’s major religions. Kaguya’s story is an amalgam of many of the myths surrounding the Tree of Life. Within the story its power can be used for either Ninshuu (good) or Ninjutsu (evil). Hagoromo reveres the Tree for the things that its power can accomplish while others covet it’s power for the destruction it can wreak. Hagoromo’s Ninshuu is all about how to harness that power for the right ends:

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But the tree has a darker side as well. When not handled with respect and humility the power of the Tree can overwhelm. Its fruit has grown every thousand years and until Kaguya none had dared take it:

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From this sin the Juubi was born and to repent for it Hagoromo and Hamura were forced to seal it:

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This story is taken from the myths of the Tree of Life. In the Bible, Eve takes the fruit in the Garden of Eden:

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Eve Tempted by the Serpent by William Blake (Poet and Artist).

In Buddhism the Tree is a Lotus and it connects the Impure Land (i.e. the land of the living) to the Pure Land (the Six Realms). Here is Guan Yin (Kannon) on her Lotus with the Six Realms:

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Associated with the Tree of Life are spirits said to haunt those who chop down sacred plants or break the branched of holy trees. These sylvan spirits (wood spirits which we get names like Sylvia and Sylvester from) are popular the world over. In Thailand, one particular Lady of the Tree, is known as Nang Tani who is a spirit whose feet never touch the ground and who haunt banana trees during full moons:

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In Pure Land Buddhism, the Lotus is governed by Kannon. This is the Bodhistva that Hashirama’s Senju Kannon is named after:

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Kannon is part of a Triad of Buddha’s who govern the passage of souls from the real world to the Western Paradise. She comes in many incarnations. The Wrathful Kannon is known as Bato Kannon or Hayagriva and is often depicted as having fangs and a Third Eye:

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Kannon comes in many manifestations but she is usually regarded as a goddess of compassion:

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I think that something turned the compassionate Kaguya:

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… into the wrathful Kaguya also known as the Demon:

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The Missing Rabbit

The first Juubi was made up in part by Kaguya and in part by the Holy Tree

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Kaguya and the Shinju’s chakra was sealed by Hagoromo and his brother:

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Hagoromo subdivided his portion of chakra into the 9 Bijuu:

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However the Ten Tailed Rabbit Goddess was not amongst the Bijuu that Hagoromo created:

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This giant Bijuu (the Rabbit Goddess) was most likely transferred into Hamura’s Staff:

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That Staff was used to seal Hagoromo’s body (the Gedo Mazo):

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…and took shape as Black Zetsu:

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Until eventually Black Zetsu united Hagoromo’s 9 Bijuu with the Rabbit Goddess in Madara to recreate Kaguya:

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Cursed Jinchuuriki, Ninshuu and Ninjutsu, Hawk and Snake

The Juubi was just the chakra of the Shinju gone wild. Each of the nine tailed beasts have gone wild at some point in the past. This is what happens when humans try to contain the Shinju’s chakra with Ninjutsu:

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Ninshuu and its message of love fill the hole at the heart of all Jinchuuriki. Mito and Gaara’s predecessor carry forward these teachings:

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Without Ninshuu the host has trouble containing even two tails worth of chakra:

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Ninshuu is what brings man and beast together to unlock the power of the Jinchuuriki:

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It takes Ninshuu to seal the Ten Tails:

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Attempting to force out too much power always resulted in the Bijuu taking control over the Jinchuuriki’s actions. When relying on Ninjutsu seals, Naruto could never contain more than 3 tails worth of chakra:

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Beyond three tails, Naruto had no control over his actions and no recollection of what he’d done once he recovered:

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Only Ninshuu can tame the beast by making man and beast work as one. This is what was prophesied by Gamamaru:

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I think that Kaguya is unlikely to have been a true villain. Like every Jinchuuriki that came after her, her humanity might have been overwhelmed by the hate that accompanied the Shinju’s chakra:

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One possible explanation is that Kaguya might have been a victim of a certain transmigrant whose hosts all seem to cry as he has them do despicable things:

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In a filler episode it was revealed that Orochimaru was responsible for the last time that the Hachibi rampaged. Orochimaru even took Gyuuki’s horn for his collection after this:

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Orochimaru has a sea of the white chakra that looks exactly like what the Juubi turns its victims into:

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The White Zetsus also behave in a very similar way to Orochimaru’s chakra pool (Oro’s equivalent to Scrooge McDuck’s Money Bank):

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Even the Gedo Mazo bears close resemblance to the victims of Orochimaru’s cursed seal. Contrast these victims – spouting snakes:

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With the Gedo Mazo that spouts dragons:

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Madara was more than a little surprised that Oro had been able to read the Naka Shrine Tablet:

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You may be unaware of the battle between Hawk and Snake. This is a battle that has been going on from the dawn of humanity and is taken from the struggle between Garuda and Naga:

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Hagoromo is represented by a hawk:

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Orochimaru by a Snake:

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This provides a template for determining who is good and who has been corrupted. Good guys tend to have feathers:

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While Obito was torn between Snake (the White Zetsu half of Obito as a Jinchuuriki):

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and Hawk:

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Just as Sasuke is:

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Sasuke is yet to make his decision:

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Hagoromo’s guilt

A lot of people have noticed how Hagoromo has been behaving suspiciously. Some have speculated that Hagoromo could be evil. I think Hagoromo simply has a guilty conscience. When talking to the Bijuu before dispersing them throughout the world, he talks about the one who will show the BIjuu the right path in contrast to that taken by Hagoromo before his death (“differently to when you were inside me”):

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According to the lore even Hagoromo lost control of his Shinju power:

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Hagoromo chose his successor on his deathbed:

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But before he died Hagoromo lost control – notice how this Juubi is much smaller than the first one (Kaguya), how Hamura is not present and how the Staff this figure carries only has the Sun end. I think the reason for this is that Hagoromo became a second Juubi and fought his son Asura:

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With his last effort Hagoromo dispersed the Bijuu and sealed his body, the (curse) sealed Gedo Mazo in the moon:

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Note how the Nine Eyes match the number of Bijuu that Hagoromo divided his chakra into and the statues beard corresponds to Hagoromo’s (although now shorn):

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Hagoromo mentions that Indra and Asura did not die peacefully. They’re bodies were “destroyed”:

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Only by co-operating could Hagromo’s sons have hoped to defeat the Juubi. It would take generations for Indra and Asura’s spirits to work together:

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When Kaguya turned into used IT the first time whe is supposed to have captured and turned all her victims into White Zetsu:

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All of the White Zetsu are supposed to have once been people:

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Madara’s White Zetsu army is supposed to have been created by using Hashirama’s cells to mass produce clones but have you ever noticed how little Hashirama and White Zetsu look like one another. Despite White Zetsu having been cultivated in part using Hashirama’s cells it looks as though all but one White Zetsu takes after Asura:

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I think Indra and Asura were the first White Zetsu’s created by Black Zetsu. Two White Zetsus are shown together again and again as though they were brothers:

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Moreover the unique talents of these two White Zetsu correspond to the skills used by Indra and Asura during their lifetime. Asura could borrow and lend chakra at will – hence how this White Zetsu could be mass produced:
Asura

White Zetsu can take and distribute Chakra

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Asura did the same thing to develop his chakra cloak using his army’s chakra:

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Naruto’s Fox Cloaked Army is the antithesis of Madara’s White Zetsu Army:

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Asura Zetsu Army(?)

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While the other takes the shape of a spiral. Indra’s Dojutsu in its Mangekyo form is represented by the spiral. Spiral Zetsu is much more of a loner like Indra. Also note how Sasuke as the host to some of Indra’s chakra develops a single Rinnegan in his left eye while Spiral Zetsu emerges from the right:
Indra with Spiral Eyes

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The Tree, the Fruit … and Samehada

We have only seen flashbacks to the original tree. We have no known location for where the tree originally stood. We do know however that the tree follows a cycle in growing its fruit. For the sake of plot I imagine that the last fruit was taken 1000 years ago and that another is due:

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This fruit is what would lead to Kaguya becoming the Juubi. It is the chakra from which the Bijuu were forged and it is what the Rabbit Goddess or Demon want to put back together again:

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The Shinju is Tree of Life that bore the original Fruit:

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The Lotus is the flower grown in order to bear new fruit:

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I think that Samehada fits into this story in one way or another. The great sword shares many of the features of the Shinju and its offshoots, the Zetsu and Mokuton. Samehada can absorb vast amounts of chakra instantaneously (Bijuu levels of chakra):
Lotus

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Samehada

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…and distribute it just as fast:
Zetsu

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Samehada

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Samehada grows roots much like the Lotus and the transformation process transitions through a White Zetsu stage:

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Samehada also wraps itself in the same bandages that victims of the Lotus have been wrapped inside and which are paid homage to in techniques like Rock Lee’s Primary Lotus:
Samehada

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Primary Lotus

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Lotus

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Most distinctively Samehada leaves a mark on Kisame when he transforms into the tailless beast that is also present on Kaguya:

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This mark is seen on the Shinju Fruit and is incorporated into the design for the formal dress of the Kazekage:

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In a recent colour spread, notice how the outfit that Naruto wears, is more or less Samehada complete with the Dokuro (the skull...a Buddhist Symbol representing the impermanence of life) clasp / Samehada’s pommel and “sharkskin” armour (Samehada means sharkskin):

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While Samehada’s distinctive mark (the Zig Zag) appears as a bridge to heaven (the castle in the sky):

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When the Lotus is first grown it appears that it concentrates a disproportionate amount of its roots chasing B (carrying Samehada):

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Although Gyuuki thinks it’s after B’s Chakra.

Samehada even bears close resemblance to the Juubi in the intitial stages of its transformation:

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The Sword is described as being having the power of the no tails bijuu:

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If the Kaguya that Black Zetsu has little of the personality of the goddess of compassion that Kannon (the deity that she parallels) represents then it may be worth considering that Samehada has an overabundance of compassion…Defending B from Kisame:

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…but then crying at Kisame’s death:

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I don’t know how far the Shinju, the Lotus Family, the Zetsu Army and Samehada all tie in together but to me I think that there are solid connections between them.

Until they are all joined, the “One” is not complete:

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We can only guess how the prophecy can end in absolute destruction but if this much White Zetsu:

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…can be turned into a bomb this big (via something that looks suspiciously like BZ):

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Then disaster was only narrowly averted:

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but there’s still a snake with a sea of white zetsu to contend with…

A$AP Wap · Sep 8, 2014

Why did you include Samehada in a Thread about the God Tree?[SUB]

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[/SUB]

Six Paths · Sep 8, 2014

I don't think the Samehada has a connection to the Fruit in any way. And though I disagree with some points in your theory, Great Work on the research and bringing this all together. Your thread was a journey to read and correct in many points. Congrats!!!

Trollasaur · Sep 9, 2014

I hope kishi isn't done with the Rabbit

Rabbit Teth · Sep 9, 2014

Scrafty said:
Why did you include Samehada in a Thread about the God Tree?[SUB]
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[/SUB]

I'm a bit indecisive about how to fit Samehada in. To all intents and purposes Samehada is a miniature Shinju. We don't know what happened to the original SHinju. Kaguya ate the fruit but we can't be sure what happened to the tree. For that matter we don't know how Kaguya ate a fruit that was almost as big as her. My thinking is that Samehada could either be the Tree after it's chakra had been taken away from it - hence why it's known as the 0 tails bijuu, kind of like patient 0 in an outbreak… or Samehada is the Fruit of the Shinju - hence why eating the fruit and using Samehada leave the same distinctive marks on the user.

Plus I think there's an outside chance that Kaguya was never evil and was simply trapped in the sword like Danzo's subordinate's cursed seal mind transfer technique. It was too obscure a reference and I hit the limit on the number of pictures I could include so I cut it out.

Six Pāths said:
I don't think the Samehada has a connection to the Fruit in any way. And though I disagree with some points in your theory, Great Work on the research and bringing this all together. Your thread was a journey to read and correct in many points. Congrats!!!

No probs, I thought that was slightly less contentious than the idea about what happened to Indra and Asura. THe thought crossed my mind and then I gathered the material I could to support it. If it was supposed to be a mystery then I wouldn't expect much evidence to support the conclusion anyway. It could just be my overactive imagination. If it was easy to prove it wouldn't be a theory. Glad you enjoyed it nonetheless.

Angelic. · Sep 9, 2014

interesting. im not sure about some things like indra and ashura being zetsufied. but since their bodies were gone it might make sense. maybe kaguya wanted them to stop fighting and did the IT? but she uses that for her own purposes... sasuke killed the original wz unless its been changed.

i like the info on the lotus' and pure world stuff. the gedo sat on a lotus and the shinjus flower looked like it too. it makes it look like it fits into the story.

Rabbit Teth · Sep 9, 2014

obikage said:
interesting. im not sure about some things like indra and ashura being zetsufied. but since their bodies were gone it might make sense. maybe kaguya wanted them to stop fighting and did the IT? but she uses that for her own purposes... sasuke killed the original wz unless its been changed.

i like the info on the lotus' and pure world stuff. the gedo sat on a lotus and the shinjus flower looked like it too. it makes it look like it fits into the story.

Asura was only strong because he could combine the power of an army and concentrate it in his cloak. The original white Zetsu dying should mean that the fodder army is no more:

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There might be enough for any left over White Zetsu to combine into something more formidable but Spiral should still pose a threat. Spiral won't be an interesting bad guy unless he has some pedigree that we don't know about … like him being the leftovers of Indra.

There is a ridiculous amount taken from Pure Land Buddhism symbols and artefacts. THe Senju Kannon has an item in each of its 1000 arms. Some of the more distinctive items carried by various characters are taken from these items. Sakura for instance is always shown in colour spreads with a unique style axe called a Tetsupu that is supposed to ward off calamity. I was thinking of putting a thread together on the items in the Senju Kannon's arms but it would be more of a curiosity thread than have anything significant to do with the story. Kishi's brother is named after the character that the main bad guy is lining up to be based off of (the Buddha of Power and Knowledge in Pure Land Buddhism, Seishi).

Here's some of the Symbols common in the religion:

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Zol · Sep 9, 2014

So, you basically say the rabbit is BZ, although it appeared as a separate being in the battle and BZ was surprised about it? And why is it "most likely" that Hamura's staff has something to do with it? Just because Madara formed some things with his chakra?

All in all, it's a nice speculation, but most of it is just way too arbitrary and leaves me like.... WTF?!

ROHAN · Sep 9, 2014

Since, I am in a bit of a hurry, I can't provide manga scans. Even though it's pretty long, I hope you will read it completely as this is something that I found suspicious :-

We already know that Black Zetsu was able to control the Gedo Mazou (At least, partially). This is shown when he was able to bring out the victims of Infinite Tskyumoni (White Zetsus) from Gedo Mazou to trick Madara and when he manifested himself as a black rod (Shown by the above Theory).

Whenever the Akatsuki members used to extract the Bijuus using the Gedo Mazou they always used to synchronize their chakra and as such form a chakra link between themselves and the Gedo Mazou.

The Akatsuki members used to do this by the rings they wore. The properties of the Akatsuki rings and Black Rods are very similar as they both establish a chakra link. So, I believe the rings played a vital role in spreading Black Zetsu's influence.

Moving on, if we assume that the Akatsuki members synchronized or connected themselves with the Gedo Mazou, it seems Black Zetsu exploited this connection to either directly or indirectly control the Akatsuki members :-

1) Zetsu- Consisted of White and Black Zetsu allowing Black Zetsu to exploit the Chakra link and control the Akatsuki members.

2) Nagato- Had Black Rods embedded in his body allowing Black Zetsu to influence him.

3) Obito- Had Black Rods in his body (Used by Madara to revive himself) and Madara's cursed seal.

4) Sasori- His puppet immortality was suspicious. I highly doubt he was able to turn himself into a puppet without someone's help (Black Zetsu). Moreover, Iron Sand seems very similar to Black Rods, Iron Sand is like Black Rods in a particle form.

5) Kakuzu- Used Earth Grudge Fear by using black strings which are again similar to Black Rods.

6) Hidan- His immortality was suspicious, but whenever he used to pierce his heart in his rituals, he would use a Black Rod like Staff.

7) Deidara- As shown by Rabbit Teth (The above theory), his suicide bombing attack seems very similar to Black Zetsu. It's like a Black Zetsu was living inside him.

8) Kisame- If Samehada is connected to the Shinju, then it could be used by Black Zetsu to influence Kisame.

9) Itachi- No influence shown yet, that's why Black Zetsu wanted to get rid of him as quickly as possible, shown by Obito's concerns.

10) Konan- No influence shown yet. But, she followed Nagato who was influenced by Black Zetsu.

11) Orochimaru- The similarities between Orochimaru and Black Zetsu are obvious if you have read Rabbit Teth's theories.

Black Zetsu would always ensure that White Zetsu would eat up the bodies of dead Akatsuki members, their minions and those who betrayed the Akatsuki perhaps to remove evidence of Black Zetsu's influence.

Also, Black Zetsu would always retrieve the Akatsuki rings so that he could influence even more people through the Gedo Mazou Chakra link.

But, for some reason, Black Zetsu not only allows Orochimaru to betray the Akatsuki and take away his ring with him. This shows that :-

1) The ring allowed Black Zetsu to influence Orochimaru at least until Orochimaru stopped wearing it.

OR

2) Black Zetsu and Orochimaru had a shady alliance for a greater purpose. (The revival of Kaguya and the ripening of the Shinju's fruit).

Angelic. · Sep 9, 2014

Dragonor said:
Since, I am in a bit of a hurry, I can't provide manga scans. Even though it's pretty long, I hope you will read it completely as this is something that I found suspicious :-

We already know that Black Zetsu was able to control the Gedo Mazou (At least, partially). This is shown when he was able to bring out the victims of Infinite Tskyumoni (White Zetsus) from Gedo Mazou to trick Madara and when he manifested himself as a black rod (Shown by the above Theory).

Whenever the Akatsuki members used to extract the Bijuus using the Gedo Mazou they always used to synchronize their chakra and as such form a chakra link between themselves and the Gedo Mazou.

The Akatsuki members used to do this by the rings they wore. The properties of the Akatsuki rings and Black Rods are very similar as they both establish a chakra link. So, I believe the rings played a vital role in spreading Black Zetsu's influence.

Moving on, if we assume that the Akatsuki members synchronized or connected themselves with the Gedo Mazou, it seems Black Zetsu exploited this connection to either directly or indirectly control the Akatsuki members :-

1) Zetsu- Consisted of White and Black Zetsu allowing Black Zetsu to exploit the Chakra link and control the Akatsuki members.

2) Nagato- Had Black Rods embedded in his body allowing Black Zetsu to influence him.

3) Obito- Had Black Rods in his body (Used by Madara to revive himself) and Madara's cursed seal.

4) Sasori- His puppet immortality was suspicious. Moreover, Iron Sand seems very similar to Black Rod properties.

5) Kakuzu- Used Earth Grudge Fear by using black strings which are again similar to Black Rods.

6) Hidan- His immortality was suspicious, but whenever he used to pierce his heart in his rituals, he would use a Black Rod like structure (Staff).

7) Deidara- As shown by Rabbit Teth (The above theory), his suicide bombing attack seems very similar to Black Zetsu.

8) Kisame- If Samehada is connected to the Shinju, then it could be used by Black Zetsu to influence Kisame.

9) Itachi- No influence shown yet, that's why Black Zetsu wanted to get rid of him as quickly as possible, shown by Obito's concerns.

10) Konan- No influence shown yet. But, she followed Nagato who was influenced by Black Zetsu.

11) Orochimaru- The similarities between Orochimaru and Black Zetsu are obvious if you have read Rabbit Teth's theories.

Black Zetsu would always ensure that White Zetsu would eat up the bodies of dead Akatsuki members, their minions and those who betrayed the Akatsuki perhaps to remove evidence of Black Zetsu's influence.

Also, Black Zetsu would always retrieve the Akatsuki rings so that he could influence even more people through the Gedo Mazou Chakra link.

But, for some reason, Black Zetsu allows Orochimaru to betray the Akatsuki and take away his ring with him. This shows that :-

1) The ring allowed Black Zetsu to influence Orochimaru at least until Orochimaru stopped wearing it.

OR

2) Black Zetsu and Orochimaru had a shady alliance for a greater purpose.(The revival of Kaguya and the ripening of the Shinju's fruit).

the rings are something thats long forgotten, the only thing that stands out to me was tobi wanting sasoris. i guess their nail polish also influenced them?

ROHAN · Sep 9, 2014

obikage said:
the rings are something thats long forgotten, the only thing that stands out to me was tobi wanting sasoris. i guess their nail polish also influenced them?

Tobi was influenced by Black Zetsu to take Sasori's ring so that he in turn could be influenced by Black Zetsu also and also to erase evidence of his influence.

As far as I can tell Black Zetsu, by using the Akatsuki was able to retrieve all the rings before the Fourth Shinobi World War except for Kakuzu's and Hidan's rings.

Considering Black Zetsu's abilities, I think that Black Zetsu was able to retrieve the two missing rings also.

The Nail polish in my opinion was just for decoration, but it's strange that only three colors are used : Red, Green and Blue, the three colors of the light spectrum.

Angelic. · Sep 9, 2014

Dragonor said:
Tobi was influenced by Black Zetsu to take Sasori's ring so that he in turn could be influenced by Black Zetsu also and also to erase evidence of his influence.

As far as I can tell Black Zetsu, by using the Akatsuki was able to retrieve all the rings before the Fourth Shinobi World War except for Kakuzu's and Hidan's rings.

Considering Black Zetsu's abilities, I think that Black Zetsu was able to retrieve the two missing rings also.

The Nail polish in my opinion was just for decoration, but it's strange that only three colors are used : Red, Green and Blue, the three colors of the light spectrum.

whats the point? also oro had one he took.

Hyuga Prodigy · Sep 9, 2014

This is a great theory although I'm not to keen on BZ being the origin of Rabbit monster because it turned out into different being, why would BZ be surprised?? Although I do agree that BZ is the formed of Hagoromo and Hamura Staff, not sure about the rod since he was stuck and couldn't move. As usual with your main theory regarding the Naga myth, I do believe that Orochimaru and BZ share the same conspiracy throughout the whole even of this entire series and even Jugo kept questioning Orochimaru scheme which I think it'll approach closer after the Infinte tsukyomi was deactivated. Also you had to keep in mind as to why BZ was referred as a "He" instead of "She" (Kaguya)

ShinjuMadara · Sep 9, 2014

Jesus Christ, very thorough, however the whole Samehada is a bit of a stretch, a lot of the theory seems cool and maybe even plausible.

Slifer · Sep 9, 2014

rep for your effort!! Deep analysis. #inOROweTRUST

ROHAN · Sep 9, 2014

obikage said:
whats the point? also oro had one he took.

It seems the rings are like black rods which is used by Black Zetsu to control Akatsuki members.

I completely forgot that Orochimaru had one ring though. Lol

Also, after Madara's defeat, the black rods on Hashirama start disintegrating into powdered particles which is very similar to the iron sand used by Sasori.

Rabbit Teth · Sep 9, 2014

Zol said:
So, you basically say the rabbit is BZ, although it appeared as a separate being in the battle and BZ was surprised about it? And why is it "most likely" that Hamura's staff has something to do with it? Just because Madara formed some things with his chakra?

All in all, it's a nice speculation, but most of it is just way too arbitrary and leaves me like.... WTF?!

narutoshippudenworld said:
This is a great theory although I'm not to keen on BZ being the origin of Rabbit monster because it turned out into different being, why would BZ be surprised?? Although I do agree that BZ is the formed of Hagoromo and Hamura Staff, not sure about the rod since he was stuck and couldn't move. As usual with your main theory regarding the Naga myth, I do believe that Orochimaru and BZ share the same conspiracy throughout the whole even of this entire series and even Jugo kept questioning Orochimaru scheme which I think it'll approach closer after the Infinte tsukyomi was deactivated. Also you had to keep in mind as to why BZ was referred as a "He" instead of "She" (Kaguya)

I don't think BZ is the Rabbit Bijuu but I do think it's possible that the rabbit was transferred into him. Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the original Juubi together. Hagoromo sealed his portion of the Juubi chakra inside his own body. I think Hamura might have sealed his portion inside his staff.

THe Rabbit Bijuu was never inside Hagoromo. He is always shown with the 9 baby bijuu for whom we have the names. The Rabbit was not on the hit list for Akatsuki because I think Black Zetsu always had the Rabbit. BZ simply contained it until he could reunite it with the chakra sealed inside Hagoromo. Bijuu chakra makes people go crazy unless it's handled properly. Hagoromo divides his Juubi chakra into the 9 Bijuu to make it more manageable. Minato likewise divided Kurama so that Naruto wouldn't be consumed by it. The Rabbit (that part of the Juubi's chakra that wasn't sealed in Hagoromo) is undiluted.

The Gedo Mazo had a Black Staff protruding from its stomach. That Black Staff is not the Staff that Hagoromo carries. Hagoromo could contain 9 Bijuu's worth of CHakra but the Rabbit is represented as having more chakra than all the nine bijuu combined. If BZ had the Rabbit and and happened to be there as Hagromo was falling prey to old age… then I can imagine Hagoromo temporarily losing control - which is my explanation for why Indra and Asura's bodies are said to have been destroyed.

It's just a theory and nothing's certain yet but I think it would allow Indra to come back as a villain (or at least a corrupted White Zetsu) instead of as a kindly ghost (which is bound to happen much later whenever Naruto and Sasuke truly resolve their differences).

BZ was never Madara's will or Madara's chakra and I don't think he was Kaguya's will either. BZ was there when Madara and Hashirama fought. Madara was under the illusion that he was in control all the while he was performing his duties as somebody else's pawn. Of the remaining potential bad guys left, only Orochimaru and Hamura stand as people capable of having pulled together such a plan - I tend to think the two might be related (as in they are one and the same / they are father and son / they are master and servant - something along those lines).

Kaguya is the Rabbit Goddess - but I think someone else is the Demon. Somewhere along the road the Rabbit was bitten by a snake.

Dragonor said:
Since, I am in a bit of a hurry, I can't provide manga scans. Even though it's pretty long, I hope you will read it completely as this is something that I found suspicious :-

We already know that Black Zetsu was able to control the Gedo Mazou (At least, partially). This is shown when he was able to bring out the victims of Infinite Tskyumoni (White Zetsus) from Gedo Mazou to trick Madara and when he manifested himself as a black rod (Shown by the above Theory).

Whenever the Akatsuki members used to extract the Bijuus using the Gedo Mazou they always used to synchronize their chakra and as such form a chakra link between themselves and the Gedo Mazou.

The Akatsuki members used to do this by the rings they wore. The properties of the Akatsuki rings and Black Rods are very similar as they both establish a chakra link. So, I believe the rings played a vital role in spreading Black Zetsu's influence.

Moving on, if we assume that the Akatsuki members synchronized or connected themselves with the Gedo Mazou, it seems Black Zetsu exploited this connection to either directly or indirectly control the Akatsuki members :-

1) Zetsu- Consisted of White and Black Zetsu allowing Black Zetsu to exploit the Chakra link and control the Akatsuki members.

2) Nagato- Had Black Rods embedded in his body allowing Black Zetsu to influence him.

3) Obito- Had Black Rods in his body (Used by Madara to revive himself) and Madara's cursed seal.

4) Sasori- His puppet immortality was suspicious. I highly doubt he was able to turn himself into a puppet without someone's help (Black Zetsu). Moreover, Iron Sand seems very similar to Black Rods, Iron Sand is like Black Rods in a particle form.

5) Kakuzu- Used Earth Grudge Fear by using black strings which are again similar to Black Rods.

6) Hidan- His immortality was suspicious, but whenever he used to pierce his heart in his rituals, he would use a Black Rod like Staff.

7) Deidara- As shown by Rabbit Teth (The above theory), his suicide bombing attack seems very similar to Black Zetsu. It's like a Black Zetsu was living inside him.

8) Kisame- If Samehada is connected to the Shinju, then it could be used by Black Zetsu to influence Kisame.

9) Itachi- No influence shown yet, that's why Black Zetsu wanted to get rid of him as quickly as possible, shown by Obito's concerns.

10) Konan- No influence shown yet. But, she followed Nagato who was influenced by Black Zetsu.

11) Orochimaru- The similarities between Orochimaru and Black Zetsu are obvious if you have read Rabbit Teth's theories.

Black Zetsu would always ensure that White Zetsu would eat up the bodies of dead Akatsuki members, their minions and those who betrayed the Akatsuki perhaps to remove evidence of Black Zetsu's influence.

Also, Black Zetsu would always retrieve the Akatsuki rings so that he could influence even more people through the Gedo Mazou Chakra link.

But, for some reason, Black Zetsu not only allows Orochimaru to betray the Akatsuki and take away his ring with him. This shows that :-

1) The ring allowed Black Zetsu to influence Orochimaru at least until Orochimaru stopped wearing it.

OR

2) Black Zetsu and Orochimaru had a shady alliance for a greater purpose. (The revival of Kaguya and the ripening of the Shinju's fruit).

The Rings could be developed within the story as something like long distance chakra transmitters. The Black Rods disintegrate when BZ leaves the dimension. There is a limit to their control. These are what connect each of the Paths of Pain.

I never thought about Sasori's Sand as being similar.They are made of Iron and Iron is traditionally represented with Black. On flags Black can represent Iron which is a shorthand for Industry and Military might. The Iron Sand was copied by the Kazekage from one of the Bijuu so even it ties back into the Shinju.

I've put together a lot of material earlier on how Black Zetsu is a fluid form of the Black Rods - though I think his natural shape is as a staff. You're right, the Iron Sand Technique does look a lot like the Black Rods disintegrating. Onmyouton is considered to have been made of at least 4 elements and it can also change from solid to liquid in an instant. Black Zetsu's forced conversion of Madara into Kaguya also resembles Oro's cursed seal. I'm pretty sure that there is a lot of crossover between them all.

I'd like to know more of the Rings. A lot of importance is attributed to having one of these rings by Obito and BZ. Oro keeps his in one of his preserving jars (along with a previous host's hand). Kishi tends to hype up items and then forget about them or discard them very quickly (Totsuka Blade, Yata Mirror, Sword of Nunoboko, the Sage's Tools…). I'm hoping that Samehada bucks the trend.

BTW - I tried to address the "One" in this theory. It is the prophecy of reuniting the chakra in order to bring about a revolution in the Ninja World or its destruction. The prophecy can go either way - corresponding to Ninshuu and Ninjutsu. I don't think that it ties in with any outside material (like Sojobo) except in the most general sense - though now that you mention Rings, I'm reminded of Lord of the Rings and the One Ring.

Zol · Sep 9, 2014

Rabbit Teth said:
I don't think BZ is the Rabbit Bijuu but I do think it's possible that the rabbit was transferred into him. Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the original Juubi together. Hagoromo sealed his portion of the Juubi chakra inside his own body. I think Hamura might have sealed his portion inside his staff.

THe Rabbit Bijuu was never inside Hagoromo. He is always shown with the 9 baby bijuu for whom we have the names. The Rabbit was not on the hit list for Akatsuki because I think Black Zetsu always had the Rabbit. BZ simply contained it until he could reunite it with the chakra sealed inside Hagoromo. Bijuu chakra makes people go crazy unless it's handled properly. Hagoromo divides his Juubi chakra into the 9 Bijuu to make it more manageable. Minato likewise divided Kurama so that Naruto wouldn't be consumed by it. The Rabbit (that part of the Juubi's chakra that wasn't sealed in Hagoromo) is undiluted.

The Gedo Mazo had a Black Staff protruding from its stomach. That Black Staff is not the Staff that Hagoromo carries. Hagoromo could contain 9 Bijuu's worth of CHakra but the Rabbit is represented as having more chakra than all the nine bijuu combined. If BZ had the Rabbit and and happened to be there as Hagromo was falling prey to old age… then I can imagine Hagoromo temporarily losing control - which is my explanation for why Indra and Asura's bodies are said to have been destroyed.

It's just a theory and nothing's certain yet but I think it would allow Indra to come back as a villain (or at least a corrupted White Zetsu) instead of as a kindly ghost (which is bound to happen much later whenever Naruto and Sasuke truly resolve their differences).

BZ was never Madara's will or Madara's chakra and I don't think he was Kaguya's will either. BZ was there when Madara and Hashirama fought. Madara was under the illusion that he was in control all the while he was performing his duties as somebody else's pawn. Of the remaining potential bad guys left, only Orochimaru and Hamura stand as people capable of having pulled together such a plan - I tend to think the two might be related (as in they are one and the same / they are father and son / they are master and servant - something along those lines).

Kaguya is the Rabbit Goddess - but I think someone else is the Demon. Somewhere along the road the Rabbit was bitten by a snake.

There was no hint that Hamura sealed a part of the Juubi in himself, Hagoromo stated explicitly that they fought the Juubi together, but sealed it in Hagoromo alone.

And of course Akatsuki didn't hunt down the Rabbit "Bijuu", because it is an alternate form of Kaguya, who is the Juubi.

Rabbit Teth · Sep 9, 2014

Zol said:
There was no hint that Hamura sealed a part of the Juubi in himself, Hagoromo stated explicitly that they fought the Juubi together, but sealed it in Hagoromo alone.

And of course Akatsuki didn't hunt down the Rabbit "Bijuu", because it is an alternate form of Kaguya, who is the Juubi.

There are conflicting translations for this panel. I’ve read differing accounts over what it should say from Japanese speakers on both sides that I’d generally trust. But I think that the Mangapanda translation is the more reliable… not because I speak any Japanese (I don’t) but because it fits with the context of the story. Mangapanda’s version says that the Juubi was sealed by both Hagoromo and Hamura:

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This tallies with the process whereby the Juubi was sealed. Hagoromo and Hamura charge at the Juubi and seal it together in exactly the same way as Sasuke and Naruto:

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This explains why the Juubi that Hagoromo and Hamura fight is so much bigger than the one seen fighting a lone figure (it was Hagoromo losing control of his Shinju chakra and fighting Kaguya instead of Kaguya losing control over her Shinju chakra and fighting Hagoromo and Hamura):

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That person would be Asura who only inherited Hagoromo’s Sun Staff - compare Hagoromo's staff in the first picture to that lone figures staff (Hagromo has Sun and Moon while the lone figure only has the Sun). Here you can see Asura standing under the Sun Symbol:

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We also know that the Rabbit wasn’t part of the chakra sealed in Hagoromo. There are only ever 9 Bijuu in the flashbacks for Hagoromo, not 10:

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…and before Madara turns into Kaguya (after being stabbed in the back by Black Zetsu) we couldn’t see any hint that there was a 10th unidentified Juubi in the Bijuu chakra that Madara had collected:

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Hence I think that the Rabbit was originally sealed inside Black Zetsu (not just any Staff but Hamura’s Staff).
Hagoromo corrects himself when he says that the Juubi Chakra was what was able to allow Madara to reawaken his power … asserting instead that it was Kurama's:

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Hagoromo’s power is represented by a Square containing 9 circles or flames representing each of the Nine Bijuu. The Juubi’s Power is represented by a giant circle that encompasses all the Shinju’s remaining power (what was sealed inside of Hagoromo). This is the meaning of the Mandala (a geometric representation used to depict heavenly forces) behind the Juubi:

*

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Hagoromo’s power rests with the power that can be united by Kurama as seen in this square with 8 flames surrounding the word Fox in Japanese:

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Hagoromo only had part of the Juubi sealed inside him … what he turned into the 9 Bijuu. Kaguya had the full ten tails worth of chakra sealed inside her (hence why there is a Bijuu above and beyond those sealed in Hagoromo) which is not just the 9 small circles that fit within the Mandala behind the Juubi but was a giant circle with room to spare. The Square was sealed inside Hagoromo the rest was sealed by Hamura and I’m guessing he sealed this in his staff.

If you're wondering what happened to Hamura, I think he was eaten. Madara's Naka Shrine vision of the Juubi shows somebody in its mouth. We know it wasn't Hagoromo (he lived to have kids). I'm guessing thet Hamura's Staff didn't follow its master but escaped and was trying to bring him back:

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That's the theory anyway.

ROHAN · Sep 10, 2014

As far as I can tell, this black substance can take many forms :-

Black Rods

Black Wires

Black Sand particles.

Fluid Black Rods

Black Truth seeking Balls.

Black Staffs

I wonder if there are even more forms.

[Theory] Shinju

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