[Theory] Seeking a tan!!! Tobi is Madara :)

[EternalMangekyouRinnegan]

***Long Theory, but I modified the original post to incorporate clarifications of things said to be too poorly supported in my theory so that people can jump right inside the conversation by simply reading the FIRST post here, enjoy ***
***If you feel something is still wrong with THAT new post, it hasn't been covered so bring it up!***

Aiiiiight!!! I think I'm gonna get a tan from all that flamming which is coming to me right now! xd But I'm just gonna say it for the record. I think Tobi IS Madara still! Because Kishi's twisted sense of story telling and twisted unforseen events... It's the last thing we'd expect right now... But let's talk about the facts and what leads me to think what I think:

-Madara IS DEAD, it's a fact now.

Spoiler

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-Madara in his IWR knows about Nagato and was expected to be resurected by him. Just like Tobi said in a manga short after Nagato's death: He was supposed to use "that" jutsu for me, meaning either a heavy resurection to raise an army or a heavy resurrection spell to go seek a long gone soul.

Spoiler

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-It seems to me that Madara in his IWR has Tobi's POV from when Nagato was a kid.
-Tobi is not human, it's a fact as well, he is obviously a white zetsu's body with its own soul. Every time he looses something (Being an arm, or an arm again...) he just reattaches it no problemo! Besides there must be a reason he is extremely close to Zetsu, and I suspect it aint Zetsu's pretty face!!!
-Tobi said he is a shelf of his former self, which could DEFINATELY BE A TOTAL BS !!! But then again if my theory hits the bullseye, it works too!

-I think Madara (The original one) gave his memories, will and "powers" to a white zetsu (but NOT his soul, cause he couldn't find a way, nor did he wanted to) which became Tobi.
*TOBI WOULD NOT BE MADARA'S SOUL. This is the kicker here!!! Madara (IF and that's ONE BIG IF) would have put all his memories into a white zetsu (Cause it seems like Zetsu's white body is THAT adaptable) which somehow makes the creation THINK that it is Madara! But it's not!!! Because in order for that creation to BE Madara, it would NEED the soul! But we already KNOW that Madara's soul WAS in that pure world cause it just got IWR summoned!


-Madara GAVE his EMS/Rinnegan (That part of it was BS to me.... but there it is lol xD) So Tobi now DEFINATELY needed another sharingan.

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-Then this Tobi took Obito's remaining eye, shortly there after attacking Konoha and fight against Minato and all. Why Obito's sharingan soo important?! Because it is the only lost sharingan at the time that we know of. This is a theory, and it explains things. The how he could have gotten Obito's sharingan is simple. Zetsu, which is ground and nature, could have recovered it from beneath the rock slide. Also, there is a lot of controversy because People think Obito's eye was crushed. Well fair enough but I think that it was protected within the right socket in the skull. If the skull was crushed to, then Obito would not have been able to talk a short while after been crushed.

-Also why is it important that I still think it wasn't crushed?! Because nobody can deny the similarities between Kakashi's MS and Tobi's. An other VERY important part of this theory is when Tobi says to Kakashi about to strike him with Kamui that it would have no effect on him:

Spoiler

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-At this stage, if the theory fits, Madara still think of himself as real bad ass cause judging by what he could do in chapter 560.... (Yes though stronger than he ever was... we see all the tactics that he had.) Taking Minato out wasn't far fetched at all. But the 4th helped him realize his limits. So he started to get in less and less fights, making Akatsuki.

-After all this drama he had to retire and come back at a more prepared timing.... which allowed him to re-inforce his Sharingan collection (destruction of the Uchiha clan), allowing him to have a second sharingan against Konan.
***IMPORTANT*** Tobi was NEVER SHOWN WITH 2 SHARINGANS Until AFTER we see his Sharingan Lab.

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-Note also that Tobi seems to have a LOT of knowledge, Madara's knowledge (or honest mistake.... even Minato thought it was him!) We're not talking Madara himself!!! But just somekind of souless creation of Madara, created by himself to do his biding while he is dead after giving Nagato Rinnegan.
It is extremely far fetched. It is possible though!
All right! time for comments/Flamming ! I want it all!

EDIT: Update based on current events

Sorry bro but you have too many flaws and loop wholes in your theory.

1)You say Tobi is Madara but than you contradict yourself saying Tobi has zetsu body and his own soul. If that's the case than Tobi is Tobi and not Madara.

2)Yes, Tobi didn't show 2nd eye until we have seen his lab but he didn't show 2nd eye after we see the lab either, he's still using his old mask so you're argument on this matter is invalid.

3)Yes, there are similarities of Tobi's warping ability and kakashi kamui but nowhere in manga does it state that it is sharingan ability. I already explained you this in my thread, you didn't answer me so I guess you agreed with me silently. Here's another of my posts on this matter :

Spoiler

Yes, the warping jutsu appears to be centered around his eye but the other techs like - Teleporting and Intangibility are not.In fact, it's quite logical that the warping tech is centered around his eye because he needs to see what he's warping in! He can't warp people with his ass, nor his ear or some other part of his body. He could do it with his finger but the most artisticly correct way would be if it centered around his eye/s.

So if one jutsu is centered around his eye (note you that he only has sharingan eye, not a regular one) and other jutsus are not, and both of them are Space/Time jutsu, how can we say they are sharingan abilities? To put it in other way : Why would he need sharingan to use space time tech if he can use some space time techs without it?

I hope you understand the mess I wrote ><

4)You say Madara fought against Minato? But he's about 120 years old by than. Besides, Madara never had any of the Tobi's abilities. We see him fighting now and Madara is using his MS/Rinnegan very well and Tobi is not using any of those abilities so it's safe to assume that it was Tobi who fought against Minato. Also, Madara is not using any of space-time jutsus that Tobi has.

I think the problem with 4th point is that you didn't edit all of your theory to current events and at first you probably wrote that it was real Madara who fought against Minato which obviosly isn't true.

Anyway, sorry to destroy your theory but it had to many flaws in it

 

[jruiz]

So if Tobi is a white zetsu clone then if he fights naruto he'll turn into a tree, too easy I think.

 

[Floydical]

Wow, ya I totally agree! Tobi is just a creation of Madara that essentially believes he is Madara but does not share his soul. Props, I agree 100%

 

[Stampy]

Sorry bro but you have too many flaws and loop wholes in your theory.

1)You say Tobi is Madara but than you contradict yourself saying Tobi has zetsu body and his own soul. If that's the case than Tobi is Tobi and not Madara.

Tobi is Madara's projection, split, clone. Wether we can call it Madara or not it not part of my theory. In my theory Madara attempted to make a new "Madara" within a zetsu body. Now to the how you name it, i'm not original Madara, the decision lies with him :S as he is the "father" of the creation.

2)Yes, Tobi didn't show 2nd eye until we have seen his lab but he didn't show 2nd eye after we see the lab either, he's still using his old mask so you're argument on this matter is invalid.

Dude I bet you are TERRIBLE at cards games.... Be it in a card game OR especially in a ninja world... you don't show your strongest "cards" until you need them. Which is clearly what Tobi did, and the best way to deal with things. (And he sure ain't the only one to fight that way either, Itachi among others have done just that). The element of surprise can be quite powerful some times.

3)Yes, there are similarities of Tobi's warping ability and kakashi kamui but nowhere in manga does it state that it is sharingan ability. I already explained you this in my thread, you didn't answer me so I guess you agreed with me silently. Here's another of my posts on this matter :

You already explained to me by repeating the same arguments... that the manga never states it is sharingan related, or that all his space time techs aren't revolving around sharingan. I DID ANSWER YOU can't find the post right now though. Let me re-explain to you:
Tobi's space/time jutsu only revolves around his eyes while teleporting others of himself. From that bit of info/fact, we can make an intelligent guess (guess based on facts which makes sense but ain't 100% sure) that the warp gate is located at his sharingan because that's were it all comes to, it's the observed center. If teleporting, it all needs to go through that gate. (Still following me?)
We have no proof that sharingan is the origin of the OTHER space/time techs he uses such as being matter less (people being able to go through him). Then again we have no proof against it either. Why oh why would his whole body be warp around the eye if the point is NOT going through the warp gate in his eye? but simply dematerialization?!

4)You say Madara fought against Minato? But he's about 120 years old by than. Besides, Madara never had any of the Tobi's abilities. We see him fighting now and Madara is using his MS/Rinnegan very well and Tobi is not using any of those abilities so it's safe to assume that it was Tobi who fought against Minato. Also, Madara is not using any of space-time jutsus that Tobi has.

I should have been more clear on that point, thank you for pointing it out. I have edited original msg to include a parenteses. It now says "At this stage, if the theory fits, Madara (EDIT: in the form of Tobi) still think of himself as real bad ass cause ..."
I thought I was clear, re-reading it it sure wasn't clear xD but roughly at that bullet point, Madara the real one is already dead, therefore Tobi, not Original Madara, fought against Minato.

I think the problem with 4th point is that you didn't edit all of your theory to current events and at first you probably wrote that it was real Madara who fought against Minato which obviosly isn't true.

Anyway, sorry to destroy your theory but it had to many flaws in it

What 4th point? Tobi not being human? be specific please maybe I did miss something.
As for my theory you've pointed a weakness in my english which made one of the points unclear. I corrected it which made it stronger, not destroyed XD!

 

[EternalMangekyouRinnegan]

Tobi is Madara's projection, split, clone. Wether we can call it Madara or not it not part of my theory. In my theory Madara attempted to make a new "Madara" within a zetsu body. Now to the how you name it, i'm not original Madara, the decision lies with him :S as he is the "father" of the creation.

You're a bit slow aren't you mate?
You start your theory by saying Tobi is Madara and now you say he is his creation. If it's his creation it is his creation, and if it has it's own soul than it's a individual. Tobi is a person! He can't be Madara by your own definition so that's how you contradict yourself, get it?

Dude I bet you are TERRIBLE at cards games.... Be it in a card game OR especially in a ninja world... you don't show your strongest "cards" until you need them. Which is clearly what Tobi did, and the best way to deal with things. (And he sure ain't the only one to fight that way either, Itachi among others have done just that). The element of surprise can be quite powerful some times.

Wait, wait, wait... how does this prove your point? You say that Tobi didn't have second sharingan before the lab just because we haven't seen it. We have seen his lab but if Konan wouldn't brake his mask we would have never seen his second sharingan. If anything your point about "never revealing your strongest cards" only supports the idea that he could have had two sharingans all along. Where you are wrong is that you assume Tobi has only one sharingan and you do that only to prove he took Obito's eye.

I say drop that idea and your theory would sound more plausible because it's just an assumption(more like fantasy) without any solid proof or logic at all.

You already explained to me by repeating the same arguments... that the manga never states it is sharingan related, or that all his space time techs aren't revolving around sharingan. I DID ANSWER YOU can't find the post right now though. Let me re-explain to you:
Tobi's space/time jutsu only revolves around his eyes while teleporting others of himself. From that bit of info/fact, we can make an intelligent guess (guess based on facts which makes sense but ain't 100% sure) that the warp gate is located at his sharingan because that's were it all comes to, it's the observed center. If teleporting, it all needs to go through that gate. (Still following me?)
We have no proof that sharingan is the origin of the OTHER space/time techs he uses such as being matter less (people being able to go through him). Then again we have no proof against it either. Why oh why would his whole body be warp around the eye if the point is NOT going through the warp gate in his eye? but simply dematerialization?!

You repeated the same thing I said :

Spoiler

Yes, the warping jutsu appears to be centered around his eye but the other techs like - Teleporting and Intangibility are not.In fact, it's quite logical that the warping tech is centered around his eye because he needs to see what he's warping in! He can't warp people with his ass, nor his ear or some other part of his body. He could do it with his finger but the most artisticly correct way would be if it centered around his eye/s.

So if one jutsu is centered around his eye (note you that he only has sharingan eye, not a regular one) and other jutsus are not, and both of them are Space/Time jutsu, how can we say they are sharingan abilities? To put it in other way : Why would he need sharingan to use space time tech if he can use some space time techs without it?

Edit for all the Obito fanboys! : Unlike Kakashi, Tobi can't warp people from distance, he needs to grab them and then he sucks inside the wormwhole that forms near the eye. Here you go fanboys! It is not the same as kamui and probably not of sharingan origin. And bear in mind that Tobi doesn't have normal eyes, he only has sharingans. If he could disable it im sure he could have use the tech without sharingan but he can't disable.

He need's to see what he is warping that's why the center of tech is at his eye.

Anyway, I cannot disprove or prove this nor can you. But if he can use some space time techs without involving his eyes it mean that his space time jutsus are not restricted to sharingan. He could just have been master of space/time jutsus.

Like I said his powers are beyond of what we have seen so far in manga. Minato is epic but his tech is nowhere near Tobi's. Minato is just using ultra fast summoning. His secret is in his speed. Tobi on other hand is pure master of space/time. Not only he can move through space but it seems that he can also control time in his pocket dimension. Fu and Torune were in there for weaks and they didn't die.

 

[Stampy]

You're a bit slow aren't you mate?
You start your theory by saying Tobi is Madara and now you say he is his creation. If it's his creation it is his creation, and if it has it's own soul than it's a individual. Tobi is a person! He can't be Madara by your own definition so that's how you contradict yourself, get it?

What I said was "I think Madara (The original one) gave his memories, will and "powers" to a white zetsu". From that you can derive that at the point of creation, soul apart, Tobi = Madara but in a different body. Wether or not they can be or cannot be considered the same is entirely up to you, stop breaking ma b@lls. You DEFINATELY understood what I was saying. and if you still didn't.... well you're slow...

Wait, wait, wait... how does this prove your point? You say that Tobi didn't have second sharingan before the lab just because we haven't seen it.

Nope, what I said was: "***IMPORTANT*** Tobi was NEVER SHOWN WITH 2 SHARINGANS Until AFTER we see his Sharingan Lab."
Learn... to... read. And if it ain't too much to ask stop killing your rep.
As the not showing the 2 eyes ONLY supports the theory that he always had 2 is a big mistake on your part. It also support a theory which he had one eye when he designed his mask, and added a second one after making such a collection. Your reasoning skills needs a lot of improving, you are too focus on what you believe in HAVING to be what actually the facts. It's biased BY DEFINITION. Refrain from doing that again.

I say drop that idea and your theory would sound more plausible because it's just an assumption(more like fantasy) without any solid proof or logic at all.

My theory is sound, I'm sorry you don't like it. it has a lot of evidence supporting it (without prooving obviously) and a damn good logic behind it. That you don't like it because you hate me is biased judgement only.

You repeated the same thing I said :

Spoiler

Yes, the warping jutsu appears to be centered around his eye but the other techs like - Teleporting and Intangibility are not.In fact, it's quite logical that the warping tech is centered around his eye because he needs to see what he's warping in! He can't warp people with his ass, nor his ear or some other part of his body. He could do it with his finger but the most artisticly correct way would be if it centered around his eye/s.

So if one jutsu is centered around his eye (note you that he only has sharingan eye, not a regular one) and other jutsus are not, and both of them are Space/Time jutsu, how can we say they are sharingan abilities? To put it in other way : Why would he need sharingan to use space time tech if he can use some space time techs without it?

Minato's does not warp him from his eyes, also following your see what he warp... how does he's self teleport works when it comes to the back of his head, or arse?
I didn't thought this was worth mentioning.

Edit for all the Obito fanboys! : Unlike Kakashi, Tobi can't warp people from distance, he needs to grab them and then he sucks inside the wormwhole that forms near the eye. Here you go fanboys! It is not the same as kamui and probably not of sharingan origin. And bear in mind that Tobi doesn't have normal eyes, he only has sharingans. If he could disable it im sure he could have use the tech without sharingan but he can't disable.

" It is not the same as kamui". You said it yourself, no one can argue that!!
Now what the people in this forum said was that it is similar. 'nough said.

Anyway, I cannot disprove or prove this nor can you. But if he can use some space time techs without involving his eyes it mean that his space time jutsus are not restricted to sharingan. He could just have been master of space/time jutsus.

Yes! Absolutely! So when we start seeing him doing space time jutsu's without his sharingan, I'll have to remodel my theory because at that point (Which is in the future) it would have been proved wrong! This is how theories work! Since you JUST SAID IT that you can't prove it... STOP saying it's IMPOSSIBLE. THANK YOU.

Like I said his powers are beyond of what we have seen so far in manga. Minato is epic but his tech is nowhere near Tobi's. Minato is just using ultra fast summoning. His secret is in his speed. Tobi on other hand is pure master of space/time. Not only he can move through space but it seems that he can also control time in his pocket dimension. Fu and Torune were in there for weaks and they didn't die.

Good point good point. In a fight though it came down to Minato owning his mastery which even Minato said, was beyond his and Tobirama's level!