[VS] Sasuke vs Hagoromo

[Blaze Release]

Pre Jin Hagoromo has no hype, feats, and all we know about his abilities are the fact he has a Gudo Dama staff, and the Rinnegan Jutsu. Beating Kaguya is the only feat he really has, and not only did he require Hamura's help to do it, they fought the Juubi, not Kaguya, who has proven to be superior in her human form.

Juubi is also a massive boost in power. Sasuke got half of JJ Hagoromo's power. Pretty sure half of JJ Hagoromo's powers>Hagoromo before he even became the Jinchuuriki.

Lets see.

You seem to assume two things:
Ghost Rikudou has the same chakra quantity as prime living jj rikudou
The chakra rikudou gave to naruto & sasuke is jj rikudou chakra

Ghost rikudou the one that gave naruto & Sasuke shouldn't have as much chakra as living rikudou and we have seen instances of him asking the other kage's for chakra and if i remember correctly stating that he cannot stay long due to chakra issues, yes i am aware that these instances was after he has given naruto & Sasuke chakra, but it is highly unlikely that giving those two chakra if he was alive would have exhausted him like it did in his ghost form.

It is also unlikely that the chakra he gave to the duo had was influenced by his jin status. For a start he wasn't a jin when he performed those feats, Madara was. I am aware that he may still have possessed some of the juubi's chakra as he was the host (then again his chakra was already affected from birth). but i very much doubt that the ghost form who has long been dead and not a host anymore would have the same juubi chakra influence as rikudou when he was alive and a jin


Hagoromo's chakra was influenced by birth because of his mother eating the shinji fruit, so he would have had extreme powerful reserves even before becoming a jin. His chakra has been described as the combination of indra and ashura's and if i remember correctly his ghost form said he has given Naruto & Sasuke his chakra. Sasuke gained the rinnegan from this and Naruto with the combination of his own natural energy that he can absorb gained a more powerful chakra than what Sasuke would have gained, rikudou's chakra with natural energy, something Sasuke didn't have .

Now being a juubi jin gives the user stupid levels of chakra (standard with being a host), but the juubi's main power is actually natural energy, the juubi itself is natural energy. Being its host you gain this. Through this Madara can use senjutsu based techniques, because he became a host. So what a juubi jin gains is the power of the juubi which is the unmeasurable amount of natural energy.

With that said, it makes no sense that naruto will add natural energy to rikudou's chakra he gained, if the chakra he gained is jj rikudou's (because it will contain stupid levels of natural energy by default) because it should contain natural energy already. Secondly once he lost his title as host and is how a ghost im not sure whether his chakra contains natural energy.

Anyway this is what pre jjj Hagoromo is.

He already had this strong powerful chakra from birth.

Rinnegan which i am assuming that he also gained from birth, but also since he looks older than Sasuke, will have far more mastery of it than the Sasuke that gained it towards the ending of the fight.

He has the Gudodama
The staff of the the jj's (obito & Madara)

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Also note that both Hagoromo and Hamura during their fight with the juubi when neither were host, both had the same chakra and sign (Hamura - yin, Rikudou - Yang). that chakra doesn't seem to have anything to do with being a jj.

Kaguya after witnessing Naruto and Sasuke's abilities noted that it was Hagoromo who gave these powers to them. For her to say this would have been, Hagoromo who fought alongside Hamura must have shown similar abilities and this would obviously have been pre jj Hagoromo

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It also appears that being a jj although allows the user all this natural energy and even allows the user to use senjutsu, neither Madara or Obito although gained jin status in the DB, didn't gain Sage status, Rikudou did. Appears he was an actual sage and not because of his jj status that made him this.

Pre JJ Hagoromo appears to have similar powers to that of JJ obito and Madara along with powers of Sasuke and Naruto. Sasuke isn't strong enough to handle him, not with:

PS + PS Chidori
Amenotejikara
Rinnegan that he hasn't mastered
Chibaku Tensei

Those are more or less Sasuke's strongest techniques. Don't see him toppling Hagomoro even before he became a jin

 

[KidGamer65]

Lets see.

You seem to assume two things:
Ghost Rikudou has the same chakra quantity as prime living jj rikudou
The chakra rikudou gave to naruto & sasuke is jj rikudou chakra

Yup. Precisely.

Ghost rikudou the one that gave naruto & Sasuke shouldn't have as much chakra as living rikudou and we have seen instances of him asking the other kage's for chakra and if i remember correctly stating that he cannot stay long due to chakra issues, yes i am aware that these instances was after he has given naruto & Sasuke chakra, but it is highly unlikely that giving those two chakra if he was alive would have exhausted him like it did in his ghost form.

Ghost Rikudo said he couldn't stay long and noted that he barely had any chakra left when he appeared to the Edo Hokage because he had given it all away to Naruto and Sasuke, and that was the only cause, and yes, it should have exhausted him like that considering he divided up his chakra, Yin and Yang and gave it all away. He was pretty much running on fumes.

Naruto

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he could feel the other half of Hagoromo's power. He gave away all his power, that's why he was exhausted.

It is also unlikely that the chakra he gave to the duo had was influenced by his jin status. For a start he wasn't a jin when he performed those feats, Madara was. I am aware that he may still have possessed some of the juubi's chakra as he was the host (then again his chakra was already affected from birth). but i very much doubt that the ghost form who has long been dead and not a host anymore would have the same juubi chakra influence as rikudou when he was alive and a jin

What feats?

There's no reason to believe that Ghost Rikudo doesn't have just as much chakra as Rikudo when he was alive. Ghost Rikudo is nothing more than Rikudo reduced to a spirit who travels the world. Pretty sure Asura and Indra's chakra quantity didn't drop for no reason. Pretty sure Obito's chakra levels were the same when he came back from the after life and gave Kakashi all his power.

Hagoromo's chakra was influenced by birth because of his mother eating the shinji fruit, so he would have had extreme powerful reserves even before becoming a jin. His chakra has been described as the combination of indra and ashura's and if i remember correctly his ghost form said he has given Naruto & Sasuke his chakra. Sasuke gained the rinnegan from this and Naruto with the combination of his own natural energy that he can absorb gained a more powerful chakra than what Sasuke would have gained, rikudou's chakra with natural energy, something Sasuke didn't have .

Yup.

Now being a juubi jin gives the user stupid levels of chakra (standard with being a host), but the juubi's main power is actually natural energy, the juubi itself is natural energy. Being its host you gain this. Through this Madara can use senjutsu based techniques, because he became a host. So what a juubi jin gains is the power of the juubi which is the unmeasurable amount of natural energy.

Agreed.

With that said, it makes no sense that naruto will add natural energy to rikudou's chakra he gained, if the chakra he gained is jj rikudou's (because it will contain stupid levels of natural energy by default) because it should contain natural energy already. Secondly once he lost his title as host and is how a ghost im not sure whether his chakra contains natural energy.

It already has something of a close relation to Nature Energy. Sasuke could sense Nature Energy after getting it, and he could hurt Madara despite only Nature Energy fueled attacks working on him, and Naruto still combined it with his own Senjutsu to and the Bijuu's chakra to get Six Path's Sage Mode. There's also the fact that he was able to form the Gudo Dama staff even w/o the Juubi's power, since it's apparently comprised of Six Path's Sage Chakra.



Considering his ghost still has the ability to use the 9 Gudo Dama and staff set, and the ability to float, I'm pretty sure he still retains his Six Path's Sage Technique that only Juubi Jinchuuriki have, as Hagoromo didn't have that before the Juubi came along.

He already had this strong powerful chakra from birth.

Yup.

Rinnegan which i am assuming that he also gained from birth, but also since he looks older than Sasuke, will have far more mastery of it than the Sasuke that gained it towards the ending of the fight.

Yup.

He has the Gudodama
The staff of the the jj's (obito & Madara)

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He has the staff, but the staff only. Not the formation of the 9 Gudo Dama spheres, and the staff. That's something he didn't have before he became the Jin as we can see right before he was about to seal Kaguya. He only got that after becoming the Jin, so those have to be exclusive to Jinchuuriki.

Also note that both Hagoromo and Hamura during their fight with the juubi when neither were host, both had the same chakra and sign (Hamura - yin, Rikudou - Yang). that chakra doesn't seem to have anything to do with being a jj.

Same kind of chakra, but it definitely wasn't the same. Different people. Not to mention I'm pretty sure Hamura was only using the Moon Mark that belonged to Hagoromo.

Kaguya after witnessing Naruto and Sasuke's abilities noted that it was Hagoromo who gave these powers to them. For her to say this would have been, Hagoromo who fought alongside Hamura must have shown similar abilities and this would obviously have been pre jj Hagoromo

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She was referring to the Sun and Moon seals, something we already know Hagoromo had. That's nothing new.

It also appears that being a jj although allows the user all this natural energy and even allows the user to use senjutsu, neither Madara or Obito although gained jin status in the DB, didn't gain Sage status, Rikudou did. Appears he was an actual sage and not because of his jj status that made him this.

Yup, I can agree with that.

Pre JJ Hagoromo appears to have similar powers to that of JJ obito and Madara along with powers of Sasuke and Naruto. Sasuke isn't strong enough to handle him, not with:

He has the powers of JJ Obito and Madara, which is pretty much the same thing, and he has the Sun and Moon Seal along with the Rinnegan techniques. Those are the only techniques he shares with Naruto and Sasuke. The Sun and Moon Seals aren't even relevant when discussing actual power, since he doesn't even need them in this fight, and having them doesn't make you stronger. That leaves us with a guy who can use the Juubi Jin's standard abilities, and the Rinnegan techniques.

PS + PS Chidori
Amenotejikara
Rinnegan that he hasn't mastered
Chibaku Tensei

Those are more or less Sasuke's strongest techniques. Don't see him toppling Hagomoro even before he became a jin

That all depends on who gave Sasuke his power. Jin Hagoromo or Normal Hagoromo. If it's the latter, Sasuke stands no chance, if it's the former, then Sasuke should win.

 

[Holy God]

This is simply how I see it:
Naruto + Sasuke + Sakura + Kakashi + Obito > Kaguya
Hagoromo + Hamura > Kaguya

Hagoromo => Naruto
Hamura => Sasuke
Host Hagoromo > Sasuke

 

[Bronze]

The Hagoromo that gave his Chakra to Naruto and Sasuke, was an old man. As stated in P1 (Hiruzen's case), old age effects Chakra reserves and quality. So this should mean Old Hagoromo's Chakra is weaker in his young age.

 

[VongolaX]

Hagoromoo has the juubi, so he wins

 

[Blaze Release]

Yup. Precisely.



Ghost Rikudo said he couldn't stay long and noted that he barely had any chakra left when he appeared to the Edo Hokage because he had given it all away to Naruto and Sasuke, and that was the only cause, and yes, it should have exhausted him like that considering he divided up his chakra, Yin and Yang and gave it all away. He was pretty much running on fumes.

Naruto

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he could feel the other half of Hagoromo's power. He gave away all his power, that's why he was exhausted.



What feats?

There's no reason to believe that Ghost Rikudo doesn't have just as much chakra as Rikudo when he was alive. Ghost Rikudo is nothing more than Rikudo reduced to a spirit who travels the world. Pretty sure Asura and Indra's chakra quantity didn't drop for no reason. Pretty sure Obito's chakra levels were the same when he came back from the after life and gave Kakashi all his power.




Yup.



Agreed.


It already has something of a close relation to Nature Energy. Sasuke could sense Nature Energy after getting it, and he could hurt Madara despite only Nature Energy fueled attacks working on him, and Naruto still combined it with his own Senjutsu to and the Bijuu's chakra to get Six Path's Sage Mode. There's also the fact that he was able to form the Gudo Dama staff even w/o the Juubi's power, since it's apparently comprised of Six Path's Sage Chakra.



Considering his ghost still has the ability to use the 9 Gudo Dama and staff set, and the ability to float, I'm pretty sure he still retains his Six Path's Sage Technique that only Juubi Jinchuuriki have, as Hagoromo didn't have that before the Juubi came along.



Yup.


Yup.



He has the staff, but the staff only. Not the formation of the 9 Gudo Dama spheres, and the staff. That's something he didn't have before he became the Jin as we can see right before he was about to seal Kaguya. He only got that after becoming the Jin, so those have to be exclusive to Jinchuuriki.



Same kind of chakra, but it definitely wasn't the same. Different people. Not to mention I'm pretty sure Hamura was only using the Moon Mark that belonged to Hagoromo.



She was referring to the Sun and Moon seals, something we already know Hagoromo had. That's nothing new.



Yup, I can agree with that.


He has the powers of JJ Obito and Madara, which is pretty much the same thing, and he has the Sun and Moon Seal along with the Rinnegan techniques. Those are the only techniques he shares with Naruto and Sasuke. The Sun and Moon Seals aren't even relevant when discussing actual power, since he doesn't even need them in this fight, and having them doesn't make you stronger. That leaves us with a guy who can use the Juubi Jin's standard abilities, and the Rinnegan techniques.




That all depends on who gave Sasuke his power. Jin Hagoromo or Normal Hagoromo. If it's the latter, Sasuke stands no chance, if it's the former, then Sasuke should win.

@Kidgamer, you keep referring to ghost Hagoromo as jj when he canonically wasn't. We both know this. At one stage in his life he was, but that was some time ago. Hagoromo, i admit apart from his chakra being already influenced even before he became a host, his chakra after becoming a host and later relinquishing his title as the jj would have affected his chakra even more so, but it is still incorrect to refer to him as jj Hagoromo because he wasn't.

I know he split and gave naruto and sasuke all of his chakra, but i am saying that you claiming ghost rikudou chakra quantity equally prime living jj hagoromo is the trouble i have here, because as i said whilst his chakra may have even more so been affected by him becoming a host, it makes no sense to say that a ghost who isn't a host anymore chakra quantity is equivalent to his living self when he was an actual host.

Ghost Hagoromo chakra quantity cannot equal his prime living jj self.
If anything it is possible that his chakra levels may have diminished in his ghost form, because for a start he is back to being a normal person and not a jj, so similar to pre jj Hagoromo, but unlike pre jj Hagoromo, he has aged greatly and his reserves may have even diminished to below what he was before he became the jj. Old age seems to have effect even him, so most likely his reserves which we know takes a battering when you get older should have affect him aswell.

Now the Gudodama.
If you look closely at Hagoromo that Kaguya remembers, you can see clearly what appears to be a black ball

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along with the staff that obito/Madara gains when they became the jj and even then, neither jj gained the complete staff that pre jj Hagoromo yielded. JJ Madara had the crescent moon part and Obito what appears to be the sun. Pre jj Hagoromo had both combined as one

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. That is enough to tell me that he had the Gudodama aswell before his jj status as i believe the two (Gudodama and the staff are linked in some ways). Perhaps the staff itself is a gudodama shaped staff. Come to think of it, isn't that one part of the staff (crescent moon) that Madara used to take Minato's other arm and that arm also didn't reform and that is the case, then it appears the staff and gudodama have more ties than we thought or i thought anyway.

All that to me seems like rikudou and Hamura who also wielded some kind of staff may have both had the gudodama are something with similar effect.

Reason i mentioned senjutsu is this, you seem to agree that rikudou is indeed a sage and not his jj status is what made him one and you agree, but i think i should have touched on it more. I haven't been reading the latter stages of the manga is much detail, but i am certain it was stated or hinted that gaining senjutsu chakra eases the transformation of non jj status to jj status and that is why Madara stole Hashirama's or something along those lines. If its true, it makes sense that Obito who had no exposure to natural energy or senjutsu before he became a jj wasn't as close to Hagoromo jj and it was Madara who was stated to have achieved a power close to jj Hagoromo.

If all this is true, that would mean that Hagoromo and possibly even Hamura were senjutsu users and that may have helped in defeating the juubi, but also allowing Hagomoro after he became the jj to ease into this this form..

As for what Kaguya said here

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It can be interpreted in many ways. You say the seal, i say the rinnegan and the gudodama.

Anyway you greatly overestimate sasuke or underestimate pre jj Hagoromo. This is the same Sasuke who if it wasn't for the bijuu's would have lost agains't Naruto.

Good luck facing a person who appears to have abilities of a jj along with naruto and Sasuke's, even before.

 

[vaishakh01]

How does Sasuke stands a chance against a guy who can pretty much negate both his Ninjutsu and Genjutsu via rinnegan. If the power he gave to Naruto is any indicator , he is physically >>>>> Sasuke and can himself use ST and sage abilities. His physical capabilities are not enough to harm Hagomoro and his only choice is ninjutsu which gets negated by his rinnegan and TSB.

 

[Pragmatic]

Hagromo lacks feats...

I thought this is where it would stop honestly

 

[KidGamer65]

@Kidgamer, you keep referring to ghost Hagoromo as jj when he canonically wasn't. We both know this. At one stage in his life he was, but that was some time ago. Hagoromo, i admit apart from his chakra being already influenced even before he became a host, his chakra after becoming a host and later relinquishing his title as the jj would have affected his chakra even more so, but it is still incorrect to refer to him as jj Hagoromo because he wasn't.

I know he split and gave naruto and sasuke all of his chakra, but i am saying that you claiming ghost rikudou chakra quantity equally prime living jj hagoromo is the trouble i have here, because as i said whilst his chakra may have even more so been affected by him becoming a host, it makes no sense to say that a ghost who isn't a host anymore chakra quantity is equivalent to his living self when he was an actual host.

Ghost Hagoromo chakra quantity cannot equal his prime living jj self.
If anything it is possible that his chakra levels may have diminished in his ghost form, because for a start he is back to being a normal person and not a jj, so similar to pre jj Hagoromo, but unlike pre jj Hagoromo, he has aged greatly and his reserves may have even diminished to below what he was before he became the jj. Old age seems to have effect even him, so most likely his reserves which we know takes a battering when you get older should have affect him aswell.

Now the Gudodama.
If you look closely at Hagoromo that Kaguya remembers, you can see clearly what appears to be a black ball

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along with the staff that obito/Madara gains when they became the jj and even then, neither jj gained the complete staff that pre jj Hagoromo yielded. JJ Madara had the crescent moon part and Obito what appears to be the sun. Pre jj Hagoromo had both combined as one

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. That is enough to tell me that he had the Gudodama aswell before his jj status as i believe the two (Gudodama and the staff are linked in some ways). Perhaps the staff itself is a gudodama shaped staff. Come to think of it, isn't that one part of the staff (crescent moon) that Madara used to take Minato's other arm and that arm also didn't reform and that is the case, then it appears the staff and gudodama have more ties than we thought or i thought anyway.

All that to me seems like rikudou and Hamura who also wielded some kind of staff may have both had the gudodama are something with similar effect.

Reason i mentioned senjutsu is this, you seem to agree that rikudou is indeed a sage and not his jj status is what made him one and you agree, but i think i should have touched on it more. I haven't been reading the latter stages of the manga is much detail, but i am certain it was stated or hinted that gaining senjutsu chakra eases the transformation of non jj status to jj status and that is why Madara stole Hashirama's or something along those lines. If its true, it makes sense that Obito who had no exposure to natural energy or senjutsu before he became a jj wasn't as close to Hagoromo jj and it was Madara who was stated to have achieved a power close to jj Hagoromo.

If all this is true, that would mean that Hagoromo and possibly even Hamura were senjutsu users and that may have helped in defeating the juubi, but also allowing Hagomoro after he became the jj to ease into this this form..

As for what Kaguya said here

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It can be interpreted in many ways. You say the seal, i say the rinnegan and the gudodama.

Anyway you greatly overestimate sasuke or underestimate pre jj Hagoromo. This is the same Sasuke who if it wasn't for the bijuu's would have lost agains't Naruto.

Good luck facing a person who appears to have abilities of a jj along with naruto and Sasuke's, even before.

Ok, I'll agree with you here.

 

[Airbear]

Blaze release showing why he was one of the best.