[Discussion] Sasuke deserves power from the sage as well

[know it all]

Sasuke is not a psychopath. You must not understand the definition of the term. If he were, he would not have the capacity to love anyone, this idea is completely absurd. And Sasuke has only ever killed in self defense or for justice. A psychopath wouldn't give a shit about that.

Is it worth even responding to that? Idk

Psychopaths have feelings, genius, you're thinking of sociopaths who have no feelings. Sasuke is not a sociopath, however moronically he might act. You yourself insane if you think that attempting to get B killed was in self-defense instead of in pursuit of his selfish goals. How about Sakura? Sasuke attempted to kill her as well by stabbing her in the back with a chidori after he told her to kill Karin. Just because Sakura was planning to kill Sasuke doesn't mean that's justified. Can it be called self defense if he doesn't even realize she was planning to attack him?

Just because Sasuke gets himself in shit e.g. the kage summit, doesn't mean killing tens upon tens, maybe over one hundred samurai is justified because of self defense. If Sasuke wanted to kill for justice, why would he go after Danzo? Danzo is a slimy piece of dog shit, but what he did with the Uchiha's and Itachi wasn't necessarily a terrible thing.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Good thread.

I believe he doesn't deserve the power because he has shown a sign of inconsequence throughout the whole manga, meaning that Sasuke's character doesn't give any kind of guarantee that his resolve will be mantained from now.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

Is it worth even responding to that? Idk

Psychopaths have feelings, genius, you're thinking of sociopaths who have no feelings. Sasuke is not a sociopath, however moronically he might act. You yourself insane if you think that attempting to get B killed was in self-defense instead of in pursuit of his selfish goals. How about Sakura? Sasuke attempted to kill her as well by stabbing her in the back with a chidori after he told her to kill Karin. Just because Sakura was planning to kill Sasuke doesn't mean that's justified. Can it be called self defense if he doesn't even realize she was planning to attack him?

Just because Sasuke gets himself in shit e.g. the kage summit, doesn't mean killing tens upon tens, maybe over one hundred samurai is justified because of self defense. If Sasuke wanted to kill for justice, why would he go after Danzo? Danzo is a slimy piece of dog shit, but what he did with the Uchiha's and Itachi wasn't necessarily a terrible thing.

Sociopath's are psychopath's, genius. They have no capacity for empathy, it's not that they don't have feelings, they just can't have feelings for others.

He didn't kill B or Sakura, genius. And B was attacked to fulfill his sense of justice to destroy Konoha. And Sakura was attempting to kill him, not certain how that's not self defense.

Are you seriously suggesting that Danzo's actions were not unjust? Sickening.

 

[know it all]

Sociopath's are psychopath's, genius. They have no capacity for empathy, it's not that they don't have feelings, they just can't have feelings for others.

He didn't kill B or Sakura, genius. And B was attacked to fulfill his sense of justice to destroy Konoha. And Sakura was attempting to kill him, not certain how that's not self defense.

Are you seriously suggesting that Danzo's actions were not unjust? Sickening.

Un-freaking believable. The first highlighted piece displays your despicable ignorance. Now moving on, he ATTEMPTED to kill Sakura is my point. He also did so with no remorse. Whether or not Sakura was planning to kill Sasuke, if Sasuke had no clue of Sakura's plan, it's not an act of self-defense and therefore he was trying to kill her. This should be obvious to just about anyone. Even if he didn't kill Sakura, the point is he TRIED.

Now, for B. B was not part of his plan to take out the Leaf. Tobi told him to do it, so Sasuke did it. Plain and simple. His instructions never were to kill B, his instructions were to bring B so they could seal Gyuki, which would lead to his death. Sasuke knew that.

Danzo's actions in dealing with the Uchiha were actually pretty fair. His methods of manipulating Itachi were pretty despicable, but what was he to do. What Itachi had to do was for the greater good. He told Itachi to do it, did Itachi have to do it? No he didn't. People seem to conveniently forget the Uchiha were planning a coup. Ratio of Uchiha to Leaf Villagers: don't know, but the numbers are DEFINITELY in favor of the people of Konoha. Casualty rate in the Uchiha clan would have been 100 %, including Sasuke. Casualty rate of completely innocent people in the Leaf village would have been extremely high, the Uchiha were a very powerful clan. Regardless of the chosen path, the Uchiha clan would have been utterly annihilated with Sasuke in the mix. All women and children would have to die too because they would do the same thing Sasuke would do and seek vengeance on Konoha out of their ignorance of what really would've happened without their clan dying. What Sasuke was thinking of doing, destroying Konoha, was far more despicable than any of that. Knowing the consequences of what his clan would've tried to do, mixed with completely pissing all over his brother's noble motives is awful.

Get your shit straight.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

Un-freaking believable. The first highlighted piece displays your despicable ignorance. Now moving on, he ATTEMPTED to kill Sakura is my point. He also did so with no remorse. Whether or not Sakura was planning to kill Sasuke, if Sasuke had no clue of Sakura's plan, it's not an act of self-defense and therefore he was trying to kill her. This should be obvious to just about anyone. Even if he didn't kill Sakura, the point is he TRIED.

Now, for B. B was not part of his plan to take out the Leaf. Tobi told him to do it, so Sasuke did it. Plain and simple. His instructions never were to kill B, his instructions were to bring B so they could seal Gyuki, which would lead to his death. Sasuke knew that.

Danzo's actions in dealing with the Uchiha were actually pretty fair. His methods of manipulating Itachi were pretty despicable, but what was he to do. What Itachi had to do was for the greater good. He told Itachi to do it, did Itachi have to do it? No he didn't. People seem to conveniently forget the Uchiha were planning a coup. Ratio of Uchiha to Leaf Villagers: don't know, but the numbers are DEFINITELY in favor of the people of Konoha. Casualty rate in the Uchiha clan would have been 100 %, including Sasuke. Casualty rate of completely innocent people in the Leaf village would have been extremely high, the Uchiha were a very powerful clan. Regardless of the chosen path, the Uchiha clan would have been utterly annihilated with Sasuke in the mix. All women and children would have to die too because they would do the same thing Sasuke would do and seek vengeance on Konoha out of their ignorance of what really would've happened without their clan dying. What Sasuke was thinking of doing, destroying Konoha, was far more despicable than any of that. Knowing the consequences of what his clan would've tried to do, mixed with completely pissing all over his brother's noble motives is awful.

Get your shit straight.

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Psychopathy (or sociopathy) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.

Do you even know how to use google?

Yes, it was. His goal was to destroy Konoha seeking justice for the death of his brother and family. Everything he did was in pursuit of that justice. He doesn't kill needlessly.

Spoiler

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So, Danzo (and therefore Konoha) coercing a 13 year old with the life of his 7 year old brother, was cool? Konoha ordering the murder of unrelated children and the elderly because they might rebel, was all good? Danzo attempting to go back on his pact with Itachi and the orders of the Hokage to have Sasuke assassinated, wasn't unjust?

Irony.

 

[know it all]

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Do you even know how to use google?

Yes, it was. His goal was to destroy Konoha seeking justice for the death of his brother and family. Everything he did was in pursuit of that justice. He doesn't kill needlessly.

Spoiler

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So, Danzo (and therefore Konoha) coercing a 13 year old with the life of his 7 year old brother, was cool? Konoha ordering the murder of unrelated children and the elderly because they might rebel, was all good? Danzo attempting to go back on his pact with Itachi and the orders of the Hokage to have Sasuke assassinated, wasn't unjust?

Irony.

Buddy, if psycopaths and sociopaths were the same thing, there would only be one term for them, instead of two. Understand the concept of classification, just because two disorders have similarities doesn't mean their the same thing. That would be like saying acne and cancer are the same thing, because both involve something growing on you, am I right? Of course not, they're two completely different things. Not saying the comparison between acne and cancer vs sociopathy and psychopathy are even nearly in the same league, but it's the same concept.

Again, I will bring up B and Sakura. Neither of those were meant to further his goals in destroying Konoha, reread the manga or something.

Again if you read, I said the methods Danzo used to manipulate Itachi were despicable, but you have to understand that what was done was for the greater good. If the children and elderly weren't killed, of COURSE they would rebel. They don't know the whole story, and they would undoubtedly rebel. Sasuke can't even take the truth when he knows it, these people who don't know what happened would be rightfully pissed. Sasuke is not rightfully pissed because he knows the whole story. The Uchiha clan needed to die to save the lives of countless innocent people.

Now what Danzo did was self-defense. He knew Sasuke was there to kill him. As soon as he saw Zetsu he knew Obito was behind it. Danzo is one of the most disgusting characters I've ever had the misfortune to read about, but there are some things that he did that had to be done. The Uchiha clan was one of them.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

Buddy, if psycopaths and sociopaths were the same thing, there would only be one term for them, instead of two. Understand the concept of classification, just because two disorders have similarities doesn't mean their the same thing. That would be like saying acne and cancer are the same thing, because both involve something growing on you, am I right? Of course not, they're two completely different things. Not saying the comparison between acne and cancer vs sociopathy and psychopathy are even nearly in the same league, but it's the same concept.

Again, I will bring up B and Sakura. Neither of those were meant to further his goals in destroying Konoha, reread the manga or something.

Again if you read, I said the methods Danzo used to manipulate Itachi were despicable, but you have to understand that what was done was for the greater good. If the children and elderly weren't killed, of COURSE they would rebel. They don't know the whole story, and they would undoubtedly rebel. Sasuke can't even take the truth when he knows it, these people who don't know what happened would be rightfully pissed. Sasuke is not rightfully pissed because he knows the whole story. The Uchiha clan needed to die to save the lives of countless innocent people.

Now what Danzo did was self-defense. He knew Sasuke was there to kill him. As soon as he saw Zetsu he knew Obito was behind it. Danzo is one of the most disgusting characters I've ever had the misfortune to read about, but there are some things that he did that had to be done. The Uchiha clan was one of them.

No, there isn't. It's the same thing.

To gain power to attack Konoha was why he fought B, and Sakura attempted to kill him, twice.

Greater good? Konoha's discrimination of the Uchiha caused the entire situation. The coup was not involving the entire clan, yet they murdered them all, regardless of involvement. That is not justice, that is cold blooded murder.

Ordering Sai to assassinate Sasuke against the Hogake's orders was not self defense.

 

[know it all]

No, there isn't. It's the same thing.

To gain power to attack Konoha was why he fought B, and Sakura attempted to kill him, twice.

Greater good? Konoha's discrimination of the Uchiha caused the entire situation. The coup was not involving the entire clan, yet they murdered them all, regardless of involvement. That is not justice, that is cold blooded murder.

Ordering Sai to assassinate Sasuke against the Hogake's orders was not self defense.

There is, and if YOU knew how to use google you'd figure that out.

If you read, you'd understand why he fought B, that's because he's a scared little wimp who can't hold his word. Sakura hadn't previously attempted to kill him or shown any killing motives, Sasuke didn't have his sharingan out so he wouldn't know of Sakura's motives, therefore he attempted murder when it was self-defense. That's attempted murder not self-defense. That's called logic.

Konoha's discrimination of the Uchiha wasn't incorrect, and again, if you'd read the manga, you'd understand why Tobirama had to get the Uchiha out of their village. The coup DID involve the entire clan, as it was the Uchiha clan's coup.
Let me put this into context for you. If your brother killed your parents and ran away without telling you why, you'd be pretty pissed. In fact, in another day and era, you'd probably set out to kill him. But that's only if you DIDN'T know that your parents were planning to go to a shopping mall and massacre people because they were angry about how they were laid off for their jobs at that mall because employees aren't allowed to be in a relationship together because of mall policy. If you were smart enough to understand how that relates to the Uchiha clan's coup (I highly doubt it) then maybe you get a glimpse of what would happen if that were on a mass scale. Konoha would have a huge-scale crisis, and all because of the massacre that HAD to happen. Even Hiruzen agreed it had to happen. Logic.

Ordering Sai to kill Sasuke was self-defense. Danzo knows and thinks the following. Tobi is Madara and he's planning something evil involving Sasuke. Not only that, but "Madara" knows EVERYTHING there is to know about this crisis. Sasuke wants to kill Itachi. Itachi loves him too much and Itachi will let himself be killed. Danzo also knows that after Itachi's death, Sasuke WILL find out from "Madara" and come back to the village and get mad as ****, possibly attempting to kill everyone, which is a very fair assessment given what he knew. He also knows that Orochimaru is gonna wanna take Sasuke's body and threaten Konoha and Danzo wants to protect Konoha.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

There is, and if YOU knew how to use google you'd figure that out.

If you read, you'd understand why he fought B, that's because he's a scared little wimp who can't hold his word. Sakura hadn't previously attempted to kill him or shown any killing motives, Sasuke didn't have his sharingan out so he wouldn't know of Sakura's motives, therefore he attempted murder when it was self-defense. That's attempted murder not self-defense. That's called logic.

Konoha's discrimination of the Uchiha wasn't incorrect, and again, if you'd read the manga, you'd understand why Tobirama had to get the Uchiha out of their village. The coup DID involve the entire clan, as it was the Uchiha clan's coup.
Let me put this into context for you. If your brother killed your parents and ran away without telling you why, you'd be pretty pissed. In fact, in another day and era, you'd probably set out to kill him. But that's only if you DIDN'T know that your parents were planning to go to a shopping mall and massacre people because they were angry about how they were laid off for their jobs at that mall because employees aren't allowed to be in a relationship together because of mall policy. If you were smart enough to understand how that relates to the Uchiha clan's coup (I highly doubt it) then maybe you get a glimpse of what would happen if that were on a mass scale. Konoha would have a huge-scale crisis, and all because of the massacre that HAD to happen. Even Hiruzen agreed it had to happen. Logic.

Ordering Sai to kill Sasuke was self-defense. Danzo knows and thinks the following. Tobi is Madara and he's planning something evil involving Sasuke. Not only that, but "Madara" knows EVERYTHING there is to know about this crisis. Sasuke wants to kill Itachi. Itachi loves him too much and Itachi will let himself be killed. Danzo also knows that after Itachi's death, Sasuke WILL find out from "Madara" and come back to the village and get mad as ****, possibly attempting to kill everyone, which is a very fair assessment given what he knew. He also knows that Orochimaru is gonna wanna take Sasuke's body and threaten Konoha and Danzo wants to protect Konoha.

Jesus Christ. The definition is the exact same.

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Have you read the manga? He decided against it, and left to destroy Konoha. So, if someone walks up to me with a weapon and motive to kill me, seeing through a lie and preempting wouldn't be self defense? Killing without motive is completely against his character, I've already proven this to you.

Yes, the murder of innocent children had to happen. What a sense of morality you promote.

Again, against the orders of the Hokage, who had sent a platoon to bring him back to Konoha alive.

 

[AllHailKurama]

I've gotta disagree on this one. While I don't generally mind Sasuke, he betrayed his village, threw away his friends, became a murder as well as a psychopath, and has only thought about himself. He's been pretty damn selfish, constantly putting himself above everybody else, which is further shown when he says that he doesnt care what the K11 or the village thinks about him becoming the Hokage. To me he's pretty much the same as Madara.

The fact that Kishi had him meet the sage is bs to me. Why should he meet the sage, someone who defines selflessness, just as Naruto does, when he doesn't give a damn about the people around him?

This is why the whole 2 brothers subplot really annoys the hell out of me. Kishi should have let Naruto be the reincarnation of the sage, instead of this brother crap where he tried to artificially inflate Sasuke's character development instead of Sasuke repenting and going through some worth while development. He basically gave Sasuke a short cut and said "oh, it's not his fault, he didn't make those choices, Indra did because Sasuke has his chakra". That doesn't cut it for me.

To me, Sasuke doesn't deserve anything until he has his Vegeta moment (either the self sacrifice to make up for his wrongs, or the "You're better than me Kakarot (Naruto). You are the best")

 

[Ohhdang]

For anyone who thinks sasuke doesn't deserve anything from the sage is completely retarded. What kind of father treats one son better over the other? Sasuke deserves something from the sage even more now simply because he is the reincarnation of the older brother. Why would he treat his younger son's reincarnation any different than his older son? The sage obviously loved BOTH of his kids and the world is in the state its in now because he chose not to support both of them. Just because sasuke he isn't the chosen one of a damn prophecy made by a toad doesn't mean he shouldn't get attention from the sage. We are talking about the WHOLE ninja world here, not JUST a boy and his prophecy. Sasuke is just as important to the story and future of the ninja world as Naruto is. I just wish you clowns would get away from this separation of the two characters and realize that they are EQUAL and has always been

 

[know it all]

Jesus Christ. The definition is the exact same.

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Have you read the manga? He decided against it, and left to destroy Konoha. So, if someone walks up to me with a weapon and motive to kill me, seeing through a lie and preempting wouldn't be self defense? Killing without motive is completely against his character, I've already proven this to you.

Yes, the murder of innocent children had to happen. What a sense of morality you promote.

Again, against the orders of the Hokage, who had sent a platoon to bring him back to Konoha alive.

trust you to see that when if you quite simply google "are sociopaths and psychopaths the same thing", you get idk how many results telling you that they're clearly not, and while there are similarities, they're not the same thing. Here's one link, for exmple

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read through that, learn, young grasshopper.

You've proven literally nothing to me in terms of killing without a motive. What Sasuke has done throughout the manga may have been killing with a motive, but his motives are never pure, and if that's what you're trying to argue, it's absolutely ridiculous. Sakura, for example, I've explained that to you, and if you can't accept the facts, that's your problem. Then there's also Naruto, when he attacks Naruto in the exact same scene. He knows Naruto wants to bring him back to Konoha, not kill him, but Sasuke is gunning for him, plain and simple, that's not self defense, unfortunately.

Now for the Uchiha children, what would you propose you'd do with them. Let them live normal lives? Because check out Sasuke, who is an utter psychopath and mass murderer. It's not necessarily moral to kill them, but you need to think of the fact that there could be many Sasukes. Maybe even WORSE than Sasuke. If you were to lock them up in prison for the rest of their life, they'd escape. They're Uchiha, and powerful clan, and they'd grow up to be powerful adults, and so you'd many VERY strong shinobis to keep them locked up forever, which is a terrible waste of resources, not to mention unfair to the prison guards. Say the Uchiha were unable to escape, you're leaving them with a LONG life in prison, quite likely, wasting money and resources of Konoha, and not to mention they'd never see the sun, which is incredibly inhumane.