Sasori vs Team Zabuza

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Sasori, just before he lost to his granny and her adopted grand-daughter
Zabuza, Haku, Gozu and Meizu, the day before they met Kakashi

Zabuza exists in Limbo and will only materialise if all three of his team are killed. All other conditions fair.
 

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Zabuza, Haku, Gozu and Meizu, the day before they met Kakashi
sasori gets some new puppets as he scales far higher then all four of those characters like bos sakura is roughly on part 1 kakashi's level as much like with kabuto she could body sasori meaning zabuza gets fodderized plus one hit from sasori's poison will kill zabuza here
 

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sasori gets some new puppets as he scales far higher then all four of those characters like bos sakura is roughly on part 1 kakashi's level as much like with kabuto she could body sasori meaning zabuza gets fodderized plus one hit from sasori's poison will kill zabuza here
Even if i agree, the scaling line hasn't worked in the story itself. Konohamaru vs Underworld Path, Hinata+Ino vs Rinnegan Obito, Sasuke and Naruto vs Zabuza himself.
 

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Gozu and Meizu are actual fodder no matter how you look at it. They are kind of irrelevant.
Haku is cool and all but his only reasonable claim to power is his ice mirrors but...

Well basically none of those 3 even showed off the power to get through Hiruko. Haku's senbon just aren't going to cut it.

Haku probably still has the ability too, even if we didn't see it, but he's going to be slowed down trying to protect the other two. Maaaaybe Haku could throw up enough ice barriers fast enough to save them but I think most likely Gozu and Meizu are getting tagged by one of Hiruko's senbon. Most likely scenario IMO is Haku managing to break Hiruko but at the cost of the other two.

Even if by some miracle Haku breaks Hiruko and all 3 are alive for what comes next they aren't going to last against the 3rd Kazekage. From the start the magnet release is probably going to cripple the demon brother's main weapons. The Iron Sand's adaptable coverage now makes it impossible for Haku to fully protect all 3 of them (without just hiding in an ice barrier, which costs chakra and stops the brothers from helping either way). Where I think Haku could maybe break Hiruko, I have serious doubt about his ability to get through Iron Sand, just don't see it happening.

Should probably talk about the fact that... well even if you buy into Haku's hype he really *shouldn't* scale that high. Zabuza claims Haku is stronger than him or whatever, but frankly that doesn't make any sense. Even giving Haku the benefit of the doubt I think it only makes sense in terms of his kekkei genkai - the Ice Release being incredibly powerful and the Ice Mirrors specifically giving him nearly unmatchable speed. But IMO Sasori can easily keep up a defense longer than Haku can keep up his top speed, and even if he can't... Haku is very unlikely to see and target Sasori's core.

So there's like 3 factors here that make this nigh impossible:
1. Haku is highly unlikely to have the speed or power in the first place
2. Haku is highly unlikely to make it past the Iron Sand
3. Haku is highly unlikely to land a hit that actually matters on Sasori

So actually succeeding at all three of those things? I don't see it.
This is all not even taking into account what actually makes Sasori so deadly: The hidden weapons and tricks of his puppets.
It's not like Haku (and the demon brothers) only have to worry about senbon/kunai and Iron Sand. Sasori's puppets have all kinds of tricks, poisons, explosives, etc. Even if nothing directly has the speed/power to overcome an enemy the point is that they are always unorthodox surprise attacks that act in ways normal shinobi can't. Of course I shouldn't have to mention either that Sasori wins if even just one single scratch lands.

Anyway, I give it really low odds that Haku gets through Hiruko and then they all die to the 3rd Kazekage.

So then comes part 2 of the fight, Zabuza comes in against Sasori except... well frankly Sasori isn't in any worse position than when he started. Sasori has the stamina to fight for seemingly a very very long time, and he'll have barely begun using his 3rd Kazekage puppet here, let alone his 100 or his own body.

Now here is where I think I'll disagree with a lot of you but - the scaling is stupid and should be ignored.
It doesn't make any sense for Zabuza to ""scale"" as weak as he does. The guy is a legendary 7 swordsmen, elite Jonin, child prodigy, who fought on par with Kakashi Hatake twice! And once with his eyes closed! It doesn't make any sense for Kakashi to get as strong and famous as he did as a child, plateau for years and then suddenly get dozens of times stronger in a couple weeks without any notable training. It simply does not fit with the world building or common sense, nor do I think Kishi himself paid much attention to it either, given how nonsensical some of it is later in the War Arc.

So anyway, IMO people like Zabuza and Kakashi and Sasori and the Kage - they should all be more or less relative to each other. And even if you disagree here - well then Zabuza gets trashed and that's a boring fight so who cares. What it really boils down to here is the character's defining abilities - how did they surpass the natural limit of your 'regular' Jonin?

For Zabuza that's simple - the guy just has raw prodigious talent, speed, and strength out the wazoo. His whole style of Silent Killing is entirely focused on being better than you, because he can operate in the Hidden Mist and you can't. He then augments that with Water Clones and other Water Release to bait out the tricks that other high level shinobi are likely to have.

But Sasori is a whole different story. Even just looking at his personal body, he's given himself a tremendous advantage over other close combat specialists. He doesn't rely on muscles or strength, he moves as fast as he can puppet his body. He doesn't feel pain or fatigue. He's got extra limbs that are going to logistically make it impossible to clash with him - imagine matching kunai only for his stomach cable to launch out and spear you through the gut at close range. Imagine landing a clean hit - taking off a limb or his head - only for him to casually reattach the limb and keep fighting like nothing happened. Think about how difficult it's going to be for Zabuza to land a solid strike through Sasori's spinning wing blades. All that kind of crap is an incredible counter to taijutsu and weapon specialists.

But before Zabuza even gets that far he has to deal with what amounts to another Kage-level opponent in the form of the 3rd Kazekage. This is just a straight hard counter to everything else Zabuza does. Hidden Mist? Iron Sand provides full coverage, makes it dangerous for Zabuza over a huge range. Water Dragon or Torrent or whatever? Iron Sand is a literal iron defense, even assuming Sasori is stupid enough to fight a water release master near water when he's a long range figher.

And at any point Sasori can whip out literally 100 ~high-chunin/jonin level enemies that can each win the fight with literally a single scratch? You thought it was hard getting through Iron Sand, trying getting past 100 flying enemies all circling around protecting Sasori. Zabuza is a specialist at sneaking through enemy lines, but we're not talking about a group of individuals, this is one guy controlling 100 bodies in coordination with each other. Sasori was able to track and fight 11 different enemies (the 10 puppets Chiyo was using) with this, and take down a country. Having to focus on just one single enemy is going to be a breeze for him, and he can almost literally wear a bunch of them as armor while still having plenty to hunt down Zabuza.

---

TLDR: Zabuza puts up a cool fight but Sasori counters half the cast of Naruto, lol
 
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Gozu and Meizu are actual fodder no matter how you look at it. They are kind of irrelevant.
Haku is cool and all but his only reasonable claim to power is his ice mirrors but...

Well basically none of those 3 even showed off the power to get through Hiruko. Haku's senbon just aren't going to cut it.

Haku probably still has the ability too, even if we didn't see it, but he's going to be slowed down trying to protect the other two. Maaaaybe Haku could throw up enough ice barriers fast enough to save them but I think most likely Gozu and Meizu are getting tagged by one of Hiruko's senbon. Most likely scenario IMO is Haku managing to break Hiruko but at the cost of the other two.

Even if by some miracle Haku breaks Hiruko and all 3 are alive for what comes next they aren't going to last against the 3rd Kazekage. From the start the magnet release is probably going to cripple the demon brother's main weapons. The Iron Sand's adaptable coverage now makes it impossible for Haku to fully protect all 3 of them (without just hiding in an ice barrier, which costs chakra and stops the brothers from helping either way). Where I think Haku could maybe break Hiruko, I have serious doubt about his ability to get through Iron Sand, just don't see it happening.

Should probably talk about the fact that... well even if you buy into Haku's hype he really *shouldn't* scale that high. Zabuza claims Haku is stronger than him or whatever, but frankly that doesn't make any sense. Even giving Haku the benefit of the doubt I think it only makes sense in terms of his kekkei genkai - the Ice Release being incredibly powerful and the Ice Mirrors specifically giving him nearly unmatchable speed. But IMO Sasori can easily keep up a defense longer than Haku can keep up his top speed, and even if he can't... Haku is very unlikely to see and target Sasori's core.

So there's like 3 factors here that make this nigh impossible:
1. Haku is highly unlikely to have the speed or power in the first place
2. Haku is highly unlikely to make it past the Iron Sand
3. Haku is highly unlikely to land a hit that actually matters on Sasori

So actually succeeding at all three of those things? I don't see it.
This is all not even taking into account what actually makes Sasori so deadly: The hidden weapons and tricks of his puppets.
It's not like Haku (and the demon brothers) only have to worry about senbon/kunai and Iron Sand. Sasori's puppets have all kinds of tricks, poisons, explosives, etc. Even if nothing directly has the speed/power to overcome an enemy the point is that they are always unorthodox surprise attacks that act in ways normal shinobi can't. Of course I shouldn't have to mention either that Sasori wins if even just one single scratch lands.

Anyway, I give it really low odds that Haku gets through Hiruko and then they all die to the 3rd Kazekage.

So then comes part 2 of the fight, Zabuza comes in against Sasori except... well frankly Sasori isn't in any worse position than when he started. Sasori has the stamina to fight for seemingly a very very long time, and he'll have barely begun using his 3rd Kazekage puppet here, let alone his 100 or his own body.

Now here is where I think I'll disagree with a lot of you but - the scaling is stupid and should be ignored.
It doesn't make any sense for Zabuza to ""scale"" as weak as he does. The guy is a legendary 7 swordsmen, elite Jonin, child prodigy, who fought on par with Kakashi Hatake twice! And once with his eyes closed! It doesn't make any sense for Kakashi to get as strong and famous as he did as a child, plateau for years and then suddenly get dozens of times stronger in a couple weeks without any notable training. It simply does not fit with the world building or common sense, nor do I think Kishi himself paid much attention to it either, given how nonsensical some of it is later in the War Arc.

So anyway, IMO people like Zabuza and Kakashi and Sasori and the Kage - they should all be more or less relative to each other. And even if you disagree here - well then Zabuza gets trashed and that's a boring fight so who cares. What it really boils down to here is the character's defining abilities - how did they surpass the natural limit of your 'regular' Jonin?

For Zabuza that's simple - the guy just has raw prodigious talent, speed, and strength out the wazoo. His whole style of Silent Killing is entirely focused on being better than you, because he can operate in the Hidden Mist and you can't. He then augments that with Water Clones and other Water Release to bait out the tricks that other high level shinobi are likely to have.

But Sasori is a whole different story. Even just looking at his personal body, he's given himself a tremendous advantage over other close combat specialists. He doesn't rely on muscles or strength, he moves as fast as he can puppet his body. He doesn't feel pain or fatigue. He's got extra limbs that are going to logistically make it impossible to clash with him - imagine matching kunai only for his stomach cable to launch out and spear you through the gut at close range. Imagine landing a clean hit - taking off a limb or his head - only for him to casually reattach the limb and keep fighting like nothing happened. Think about how difficult it's going to be for Zabuza to land a solid strike through Sasori's spinning wing blades. All that kind of crap is an incredible counter to taijutsu and weapon specialists.

But before Zabuza even gets that far he has to deal with what amounts to another Kage-level opponent in the form of the 3rd Kazekage. This is just a straight hard counter to everything else Zabuza does. Hidden Mist? Iron Sand provides full coverage, makes it dangerous for Zabuza over a huge range. Water Dragon or Torrent or whatever? Iron Sand is a literal iron defense, even assuming Sasori is stupid enough to fight a water release master near water when he's a long range figher.

And at any point Sasori can whip out literally 100 ~high-chunin/jonin level enemies that can each win the fight with literally a single scratch? You thought it was hard getting through Iron Sand, trying getting past 100 flying enemies all circling around protecting Sasori. Zabuza is a specialist at sneaking through enemy lines, but we're not talking about a group of individuals, this is one guy controlling 100 bodies in coordination with each other. Sasori was able to track and fight 11 different enemies (the 10 puppets Chiyo was using) with this, and take down a country. Having to focus on just one single enemy is going to be a breeze for him, and he can almost literally wear a bunch of them as armor while still having plenty to hunt down Zabuza.

---

TLDR: Zabuza puts up a cool fight but Sasori counters half the cast of Naruto, lol
And i was correct! Consider my disagreements as little but academic.



Konohamaru vs Underworld Path, Ino vs Rinnegan Obito, Sasuke vs Zabuza . . . levels do not put restriction on counters.
in this case, a combined Hidden Mist + Ice Crystals would tear through the heart of Sasori. That's why i restricted Zabuza until after someone dies.




Haku was moving physically so fast that Sharingan Kakashi could not see him until he was done. After emergin from the mirror, Haku had to do a few steps like de-summoning the dogs. Kakashi being a V1 speedster with Sharingan puts Haku above that. Again, Haku moved against a Sai who matched Sasuke such that Sai could only turn his head to see his near-death.


That was outside the mirrors. When moving through them, his movements are practically instant. He reached Kakashi from a long way off while he was in his Lightning Blade launch that is too fastfor his own natural eyes. And again, Kakashi did not see anything at all.


So his reputation makes sense to me. Kakashi himself conceded after seeing the mirrors. Even if i don't bring that, the fact that it was so commonly repeated (Kakashi, then Zabuza, then Kakashi again, then Zabuza finally) and never once contended (by either Kakashi at first or by any statement of catching up to him by Naruto and co) strongly cements it as very purposeful in the mind of the authors.



The Demon Brothers can turn into puddles of water. Im sure they can take hits because it would be the worlds dumbest hiding technique if any stone thrown by a kid would undo it or damage them. That can bd used tactically against a guy with only a heart to target.
The Ice Dome Haku made could withstand 32 bombs focussed on it. Im sure it can take an Iron Sand that isn't being used by an original.
Water doesn't have to bust anything, it can seep into things.
Sasori can't use Iron Sand around himself in the mist or he may hit his own heart.
You don't have to go through a wall to hit the man behind it. You can draw him out. That is how Animal Path was defeated.
This isn't a fight of level, but of counters, in my view.
In other news . . .


i agree Zabuza is quite strong, but i think Sasori is much stronger. His poison alone is a beast. Then there are his puppets, the sheer number, the special ones and then his own body . . . that is multiple levels of the same quality as Zabuza, stacked into one man. Its too much for them to be on the same level, for me.
Speaking of his puppets, i think any body, with wooden limbs, that can re-attach, that move at superhuman speeds and carry superhuman durability is above Jonin level, very easily. Sasori has 300 of these . . .
You forgot that Sasori can also directly tag any close range opponent, and their weapons! No one can take him through hand to hand combat, imo.
Zabuza is incredibly powerful in his own right, what makes you think he is "weak" in scale? His rep is nearly perfect, having only ever failed one mission. That mission was against an opponent who knew everything about his style, had a Sharingan Zabuza knew nothing about (notice how Sharingan users always benefit from a lack of knowledge, but almost always lose when the opponent knows about their power) and was a fellow prodigy in his own right. That scales Zabuza to a level where prodigies need 2 advantages against him to barely win. Oh, and he was emotionally distraught in the end! You're right, i disagree - Zabuza is very powerful.
The Hidden Mist technique has two simultaneous powers. firstly, it downscales an opponent. Not knowing their environment plus where Zabuza is forces them to slow down, simple as. Even if they go crazy, they could completely miss Zabuza and have wasted their energy. Secondly, it upscales Zabuza. Knowing where his opponent is and that they are practically defenceless perfects his own attacks. The only way he doesn't win is if the opponent is directly immune to his attacks, like Suigetsu. Water is great at attacking for 2 reasons. Firstly, it can bust hard defences and push soft targets away. Secondly, it can penetrate frame-based defences. Opponents can be purely drowned, if they are too tough for his sword. Kakuzu, Sasori and Hidan can simply be drowned if his sword doesnt cut them down. Putting aside whether he would actually tag them, of course.


i scale like this: Invncibles (Hanzo) / Sannin=SPoP // Akatsuki / Beast Hosts / Tailed Beasts / Legendary Kage (Rasa) / Kage (Mei) / Prodigies (Golden Generation) / Elites (Kakashi) / Jonin (Genma). A single slash denotes a difference in level of ability, two slashes denote that not even a battle could be had on even grounds. Of course, that's just a generic guide, nothing thorough.
 

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Zabuza is incredibly powerful in his own right, what makes you think he is "weak" in scale?
I think you misunderstood, I don't think Zabuza is weak. In fact I think he's highly underrated.

I think people use the scaling to say Zabuza is weak because he was the first villain and "lost" to Kakashi and Team 7 before they got much stronger in the later arcs. My point is that trying to do scaling like that doesn't make sense with the worldbuilding, and it makes more sense for adult Jonin like Kakashi and Zabuza to all be relative to each other (without specific abilities that allow them to amp past their base stats). *i.e.* Zabuza is really strong even though technically Sasuke was able to easily beat 10 of his water clones - that's canon but doesn't make any sense retroactively when we know how strong Jonin are later in the series.

At the same time, it doesn't make any sense for Haku to supposedly be as strong as (and much faster than) Zabuza & Kakashi. If even the "weaker" Edo Haku was that much faster then what happened in the Wave Arc doesn't make much sense. If Haku was really ~Jonin level the whole time then he should have been able to incapacitate (Genin, with no Sharingan) Sasuke in like half a second and then 2v1 Kakashi and kill the bridge builder no problem. Instead we see (Genin, no Sharingan) Sasuke being able to somewhat surprise and match Haku in basic physical combat before Haku switches to the ice mirrors. There's a big difference between "Haku going easy so he doesn't kill" and "Jonin level Haku took more than 1 second to stop a genin".

As for the Demon Brothers, same thing. They might have some nifty water jutsu but they were getting 1v2's by (Genin, no Sharingan, 1st fight) Sasuke and then Kakashi was basically toying with them and instantly stopped both the second he wanted to. Sasori is so far above them I reckon the same thing is going to happen, unless Haku protects them they die in the first attack.

Opponents can be purely drowned, if they are too tough for his sword. Kakuzu, Sasori and Hidan can simply be drowned if his sword doesnt cut them down. Putting aside whether he would actually tag them, of course.
Side note but I seriously doubt Zabuza can drown any of them. Having to swim or go underwater would not exactly be an unknown concept for any of them. Kakuzu in particular is another water release master because he's a master of every element. We don't even know if Sasori still breathes. And Hidan could probably just drown forever, the same way he's still alive while buried under the earth, but Zabuza can take him in a fight regardless IMO.

As far as scaling goes I try and keep it as simple as possible given the variety of abilities:

(Genin) < (Chunin) < (Jonin) < (Kage) < (Outliers) lol

Of course those are huge ranges but you can break each rank down into 3 levels: (low) - (mid) - (high)
Generally a character can fight in 1 category higher or lower, depending on their exact abilities and who they are facing.
You've also got to take into account how powerful their specific ability is. So like Zabuza might be a (mid)-Jonin...
but the strength of his Hidden Mist technique makes him capable of fighting more on the level of high-Jonin like Kakashi.
(Those are just examples, you could argue Zabuza as high Jonin or Kakashi as low Kage or go the other way, not the point.)

If I were to look at Sasori for instance, just on his regular puppets plus his own body, he's probably about Kage -> (low)
He's also always fighting with another ~Kage on his team in the form of the 3rd Kazekage Puppet w/ Iron Sand -> (mid)
Add in all the advantages of his techniques, his poison, his strength of 100, etc. on top of everything else -> (high)

Keep in mind it's not DBZ power scaling though, you can easily have lower rank ninja be faster or stronger in certain areas.
For instance Rock Lee was probably either (high)-Genin or (low)-Chunin at the exams (taijutsu is great but it's all he has) however if he uses his 5th Gate or w/e I'm sure he's probably faster than some of the lower end Jonin.

But it's generally a good way to ballpark the characters.
 
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think people use the scaling to say Zabuza is weak because he was the first villain and "lost" to Kakashi and Team 7 before they got much stronger in the later arcs. My point is that trying to do scaling like that doesn't make sense with the worldbuilding, and it makes more sense for adult Jonin like Kakashi and Zabuza to all be relative to each other (without specific abilities that allow them to amp past their base stats). *i.e.* Zabuza is really strong even though technically Sasuke was able to easily beat 10 of his water clones - that's canon but doesn't make any sense
Well, only looking at outcomes (who beat who) isfaulty because you directly dismiss 95% of the story - how those fights went down. I agree with you on that scaling problem.


Its even worse because people don't look at the outcomes directly. See, the outcome of that fight was that Kakashi WITH FULL KNOWLEDGE beat Zabuza WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE ON HIS POWERS AND WHILE EMOTIONALLY DISTRAUGHT FROM HAKU. That is what actually happened, not "Kakashi beat Zabuza". So not only is the scaling method faulty, but it isn't even applied properly.




I don't think Kakashi got much stronger except for 2 new powers - First Gate and Warping. Well, the former requires strength, so I'm mistaken there, but since we dont know the difference between Inception and Shippuden Kakashi, we can't assume there was a big difference in standard strength. So outside of him using those precise powers, i think he is the same.




Sasuke scaled above a Naruto who previously beat Mizuki - an established Chunin, albeit with cloak help - before he learned energy applications. I honestly don't think those alone - energy application - should be good enough, but the fact that both Sasuke and Naruto were previously matched by a single clone in that same arc clearly shows that it was Sasuke who improved, not that the clones were weak. Although, the energy distribution suggests that Sasuke took out clones that were 10× weaker than the first clone that Zabuza used, so it may not even scale like that. Reason being that Zabuza said they had 10% of his composite energy. If that applied to each clone, then it would mean they collectively had 100% of his energy . . . clearly impossible. So each clone only had 1%, which isn't a bad scaling from Prodigy Jonin to Prodigy Genin.




Your "that's canon but doesn't make sense " mentality is PERFECT. It isn't our world, it doesn't submit to our ideas of logic.





At the same time, it doesn't make any sense for Haku to supposedly be as strong as (and much faster than) Zabuza & Kakashi. If even the "weaker" Edo Haku was that much faster then what happened in the Wave Arc doesn't make much sense. If Haku was really ~Jonin level the whole time then he should have been able to incapacitate (Genin, with no Sharingan) Sasuke in like half a second and then 2v1 Kakashi and kill the bridge builder no problem. Instead we see (Genin, no Sharingan) Sasuke being able to somewhat surprise and match Haku in basic physical combat before Haku switches to the ice mirrors. There's a big difference between "Haku going easy so he doesn't kill" and "Jonin level Haku took more than 1 second to stop a genin".
Sakura was able to track puppets moving much faster than even V2 RK but was totally blitzed by Sasuke who is slower than CM lvl2 Sasuke who is slower than V2 RK . . .


Emotional constraints are a huge nerf in this world of Naruto. Very big.


Zabuza also considered Sasuke a rival to Haku in physical speed after the clone stuff, so it all adds up to Sasuke being a prodigy himself. Remember that Chunin Obito could kill a Jonin . . . And even then, Haku actually beat Sasuke in cqc. Sasuke had to outsmart him. And all that is with Haku specialising in energy techniques and not in physical movement. So the scaling fits if you look at who and what actually happned.


Reanimated Haku wasn't much faster. Alive, he totally blitzed Kakashi and his dogs with his mirrors. Even the Sharingan couldn't track him. As a reanimation, his mirror speed was blocked by Gai and Lee. That's massive. Again, his living self has showings of 'killing' the dogs after physically emerging from the mirror, which is a physical movement achievement. So he scales, in my view.


Haku didn't just "go easy", he actually incapacitated the kids. It took a cloaked Naruto and Sasuke with literal Nakama Power to overcome his needle attacks. And again, these kids were doing far more than mere Genin. They were Genin just after graduation. During the Zabuza and Chunin Exam arcs, they were many times stronger than before, maybe over ten times stronger.


To add to that, Shikamaru getting promoted and then stopping 8 Chunin simultaneously proves that generafion is very strong. And Shikamaru was the weakest in combat from that entire group (arguably)!



As for the Demon Brothers, same thing. They might have some nifty water jutsu but they were getting 1v2's by (Genin, no Sharingan, 1st fight) Sasuke and then Kakashi was basically toying with them and instantly stopped both the second he wanted to. Sasori is so far above them I reckon the same thing is going to happen, unless Haku protects them they die in the first attack.
They only got one kick from a Sasuke surprise attack. Seeing as they thought they had just killed world famous Kakashi, they were obviously surprised that any kid could even move against them.


The same thing happened with Underworld Path vs Konohamaru and Jiraiya vs Machine Path. Surprise/shock is a big nerf in this series.


After that kick, they almost killed Sasuke in one move.


AND SASUKE HIMSELF COULD ONLY HANDLE THEIR KILLING INTENT BECAUSE HE KNEW KAKASHI WAS THERE TO PROTECT HIM. Sakura and Naruto were totally wrecked.


And honestly, the fact that the DB genuinely thought they could kill Kakashi, especially in a single attack, speaks volumes of their confidence. And the fact that Kakashi is world famous and they hang around Zabuza means their confidence has good measures to base itself on. Now we know Kakashi beat them (albeit with a surprise attack), but they are still worth something based on that fight.




Otherwise, powers come to play. The brothers having water body techniques totally counters physical attacks from Sasori. I have no proper evidence, but their Water Puddle move would be totally worthless if it couldn't handle a test of scrutiny like stone throws. Kids love throwing stones at puddles. And i would know . . .


They could just sit there and wait for an opening to throw kunai at Sasori directly. And we know distractions are big in this world, looking at how they allowed Naruto to land hits on Kakuzu.




Side note but I seriously doubt Zabuza can drown any of them. Having to swim or go underwater would not exactly be an unknown concept for any of them. Kakuzu in particular is another water release master because he's a master of every element. We don't even know if Sasori still breathes. And Hidan could probably just drown forever, the same way he's still alive while buried under the earth, but Zabuza can take him in a fight regardless IMO.
Yeah, Zabuza wouldn't legitimately beat them.


However, if they were trapped in Water Prison and couldn't escape, they can run out of breath. I was just talking theoretically.






As far as scaling goes I try and keep it as simple as possible given the variety of abilities:

(Genin) < (Chunin) < (Jonin) < (Kage) < (Outliers) lol

Of course those are huge ranges but you can break each rank down into 3 levels: (low) - (mid) - (high)
Generally a character can fight in 1 category higher or lower, depending on their exact abilities and who they are facing.
You've also got to take into account how powerful their specific ability is. So like Zabuza might be a (mid)-Jonin...
but the strength of his Hidden Mist technique makes him capable of fighting more on the level of high-Jonin like Kakashi.
(Those are just examples, you could argue Zabuza as high Jonin or Kakashi as low Kage or go the other way, not the point.)

If I were to look at Sasori for instance, just on his regular puppets plus his own body, he's probably about Kage -> (low)
He's also always fighting with another ~Kage on his team in the form of the 3rd Kazekage Puppet w/ Iron Sand -> (mid)
Add in all the advantages of his techniques, his poison, his strength of 100, etc. on top of everything else -> (high)

Keep in mind it's not DBZ power scaling though, you can easily have lower rank ninja be faster or stronger in certain areas.
For instance Rock Lee was probably either (high)-Genin or (low)-Chunin at the exams (taijutsu is great but it's all he has) however if he uses his 5th Gate or w/e I'm sure he's probably faster than some of the lower end Jonin.

But it's generally a good way to ballpark the characters
Agreed.
 

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Gozu and Meizu are actual fodder no matter how you look at it. They are kind of irrelevant.
Agreed as even part 1 sasuke could body these guys


I think people use the scaling to say Zabuza is weak because he was the first villain and "lost" to Kakashi and Team 7 before they got much stronger in the later arcs.
Incorrect as the first villain in naruto was mizuki not zabuza also team 7 never did anything to defeat zabuza aside from making him move away from the water prison that one time


Haku is cool and all but his only reasonable claim to power is his ice mirrors but...

He blocked base lee and gai's attacks in the war arc so she is not weak by any means




Even if by some miracle Haku breaks Hiruko and all 3 are alive for what comes next they aren't going to last against the 3rd Kazekage.

If sakura can react to sasori's attacks and break both of these puppets then it stands to reason that the character who can travel at light speed via ice mirrors can do the same



If Haku was really ~Jonin level the whole time then he should have been able to incapacitate (Genin, with no Sharingan) Sasuke in like half a second and then 2v1 Kakashi and kill the bridge builder no problem.
She had a soft spot for naruto so she went easy on them, It was something said by zabuza himself so it's clearly explained why such a jonin level threat was having trouble with genin



And at any point Sasori can whip out literally 100 ~high-chunin/jonin level enemies that can each win the fight
The whole gimmick of the hundred puppet jutsu is that they gang up on a opponent as to outnumber them not that the puppets themselves are insanely strong like these same puppets got bodied by a random samurai


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Incorrect as the first villain in naruto was mizuki not zabuza
Oh come on, Mizuki was literally only in the one episode (well, until that other filler later), lol he barely counts
Zabuza was the first serious, relatively powerful villain for all of the main cast (Sasuke, Sakura, & Kakashi).
I was highlighting how Zabuza came from a really early point in the series, the fact that he wasn't the first antagonist is irrelevant.

team 7 never did anything to defeat zabuza aside from making him move away from the water prison that one time
Sasuke killed all those Zabuza water clones on the bridge too. But my point was more about how common it is for people to say Zabuza was really weak relative to the later series - which, regardless of what the people on this forum think, in my experience is a pretty common sentiment elsewhere (like Reddit). Compared to even late Shippuden when the Sanin started summoning gigantic animals to fight, Zabuza's feats are pretty tame. Like Zabuza legitimately used some caltrops against Kakashi as a legitimate strategy - not knocking their use, but compared to idk, giant chakra-mech spirits, it's a pretty lame technique.

If sakura can react to sasori's attacks and break both of these puppets then it stands to reason that the character who can travel at light speed via ice mirrors can do the same
We've been over this argument so I don't want to get into it too much.

Sakura being able to do something because of how hard she can punch =/= other characters with weaker punches being able to do it just because they rank higher on the power scale. Haku may very well be able to react to Sasori's attacks and could indeed probably dodge them with Ice Mirror speed. But just as Sakura's physical punching strength didn't make her stronger than Sasori, Haku's Ice Mirror speed doesn't make him stronger than Sasori either.

The whole gimmick of the hundred puppet jutsu is that they gang up on a opponent as to outnumber them not that the puppets themselves are insanely strong like these same puppets got bodied by a random samurai
Well first of all this is from some anime filler so it's character accuracy is even less likely to be consistent than manga canon.

And second: That guy isn't a 'random samurai'. [HERE is what happened to actual 'random samurai'.] They got murked.

Third of all I'm not trying to claim the puppets are insanely strong, and I agree their main power is in their numbers.

All I said was they are "high chunin/jonin level" which is obvious enough just from his main fight, even if you couldn't tell from... every other context clue in the worldbuilding. Sakura was a Chunin level ninja, Sasori's 100 fought her with relative speed. Even if you ignore literally everything else, that's indisputable. Ergo, they are Chunin level fighters at minimum.
Add in all the puppet advantages: more durable, don't feel pain, they can fly, they have hidden weapons, they all have Sasori's poison, etc. etc. and they are formidable fighters. That's all without taking into account how Sasori was fighting 10 other much stronger enemies at the same time (Chiyo's puppets), or taking into account how Sakura's strength and evasion made her better at destroying the puppets than most other fighters would be, and more but I don't want to make this super long again.

And finally: to double down on the point that that isn't a random samurai - [ ] and kind proves my point that the puppets are fairly fast and strong considering they were able to fight relative to him. He appears in episode 309 of Naruto Shippuden, reanimated during the War Arc and then Naruto recognizes him. As an Edo he was easily fighting off an entire squad of other 'random' ninja.

So what we have here is a guy who makes your average ninja look like fodder, and Sasori beat him with his regular Hiruko puppet just by launching his left arm weapon. Also, it was very nice of you to post a heavily edited gif that takes out all the moments of Sasori's puppets keeping up with him but you can watch the full fight [ ]. Obviously the guy is more than a match for a handful of puppets, as would Zabuza, but the puppets are also obviously in the same relative speed tier and we're talking about 100 all at once.

So yes, I stand by my statement that Sasori can bust out 100 high Chunin / Jonin level fighters and win a 1v100 fight against Zabuza because I do not believe that Zabuza can take out 100 Chunin+ level fighters without taking a single scratch when they have all the advantages Sasori's puppets do.
 

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Oh come on, Mizuki was literally only in the one episode (well, until that other filler later), lol he barely counts

His relevance or lack thereof does not change his status as a villain also i just remembered the kyubi flashbacks so mizuki would be the second villain at this point in the story however he would be the first major villain as he's presented as a antagonist to the main character unlike the nine-tails demon who at this point is just a flashback character




Zabuza was the first serious, relatively powerful villain for all of the main cast (Sasuke, Sakura, & Kakashi).
Mizuki was powerful in relation to naruto and iruka which is what matters as those are the people that he would be fighting and being powerful is relative to who your fighting like if i fight mike tyson im a weakling but if im compared to something like a domestic house cat then i would be the more superior combatant.
You need your villains to be more powerful or strong enough to harm your heroes or else there's no tension in your story.



the fact that he wasn't the first antagonist is irrelevant.
You claimed that he was first villain which is plain incorrect and you should know this if you actually watched the show prior to the land of waves arc




Sasuke killed all those Zabuza water clones on the bridge too. But my point was more about how common it is for people to say Zabuza was really weak relative to the later series

Do you have a gif of sasuke doing that plus what is to say that water clones are the same strength or relative to the original when shadow clones are forbidden due to that,taking up alot of chakra and forbiliy injecting memories experienced by these clones into you.

Zabuza is really weak compared to later characters in the series like gamabunta,kisame and even haku like kisame even treats zabuza as nothing more then a kid and the demon of mist sees haku as stronger then himself but this is to be expected as characters in shonen grew stronger so the need for stronger opponents also arises like at hunterxhunter where you go from characters like majitani to hanzo in that same arc


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Like Zabuza legitimately used some caltrops against Kakashi as a legitimate strategy - not knocking their use, but compared to idk, giant chakra-mech spirits, it's a pretty lame technique.

I liked that it was more realistic and feasible in early part 1 as everyone felt like human beings as they could be harmed by normal weapons and had character to them like pein cant be even seen as a real person due to how comedically bad that he's wrote like he views himself as some god in the jiraya fight but in the naruto fight he tells naruto about were mortal men looking for revenge in justice contradicting his previous view on himself however it gets worse as pein suddenly becomes a different character with different motives once naruto talks him like that type of interaction just never happens in early part 1 like even zabuza caring for haku was hinted at before his talk with naruto like he trained this little girl and took her in which never would of occurred had he been some heartless monster.


Also yea realistic ninja with some powers are nothing compared to people who can tank nukes and be launched across large forest like even kidomaru did some insane feat like that as did jirobo with throwing a giant choji around


We've been over this argument so I don't want to get into it too much.
There's no debate to be had in regard to this subject matter as it's literally stated and shown that sakura can keep up and react to sasori, This is not a opinion as it's a literal fact said in the story itself by both chiyo and sasori



Sakura being able to do something because of how hard she can punch =/= other characters with weaker punches being able to do it just because they rank higher on the power scale.
So do you think the kyubi naruto who slapped her out with just one tail cant do the same or do you think sasuke who casually bodied all of team 7 twice cant do the same like even kakashi's raikiri has done more considering it pierced though kakuzu and killed him mind you this is the same guy who can tank full on attacks from bjuu mode yugito and it's also stated that he barely survived fighting hashirama so yes everyone higher then sakura could kill sasori in one way or another









Well first of all this is from some anime filler so it's character accuracy is even less likely to be consistent than manga canon.
It being from the anime matters not as it's detailing the country destruction mentioned beforehand and there's no manga canon as it's never been stated that there is one like this is not star wars where their exists a canon and legends universe, It's naruto where every material is generally treated the same like filler characters appear in the manga all the time like juzo and matsuri.

Canon as it stands in naruto, Is just fans excluding what they dislike from discussion while keeping what they like and their standards for what is deemed as acceptable discourse is utter nonsense like if the muh creator standard mattered so much then you same people would not count boruto as it's wrote by kodachi and not kishimoto.

I do not care about canon or what the community thinks as it's not representative of any fact or any rational argumentation like the only defending argument people have is consensus and shaming tactics as if using literal fallacies makes your spitefilled argument any better

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And second: That guy isn't a 'random samurai'. [HERE is what happened to actual 'random samurai'.] They got murked.
They got murked yes but even then so these guys are all still below genin naruto including tatewaki himself




All I said was they are "high chunin/jonin level" which is obvious enough just from his main fight,
They never damaged or even tagged sakura or chiyo, They are only good for rat packing people which means next to nothing in naruto as if a character is slightly stronger then another then they can solo entire armies or platoons of those weaker like take edo madara vs the shinobi alliance or guruguru obito vs kirigakure anbu.

Zabuza or even part 1 neji could take down these puppets if they were not rat packing him as these puppets are created to be easily controlled so that many can be used at once like you dont design swarm tactics around being strong, You understand that right as if the individual might of person was so great then there be no need for swarm tactics as they would just beat the person on their lonesome like madara did to the shinobi alliance as a example.

Numbers are used to compensate for physical weaknesses as shown in the animal kingdom many times over with things like ants,humans and wolfs like in a straight fight with any physically imposing animal in relation to them, they die everytime like a take one bear vs one wolf or one wolf vs one cougar




Add in all the puppet advantages: more durable, don't feel pain, they can fly, they have hidden weapons, they all have Sasori's poison
Puppets cant fly unless you think holding something up by marionette strings is the same as bird or plane if so then guess irl puppeteers have the ability to grant real life objects the ability of flight.
Without strings, puppets are just inanimate objects no different to real life in that sense and their not that durable as basic sword swings can take them out like mind you katana's of feudal japan are made of low quality steel so it's not even like good blade cuts down these puppets also dont say history does not apply to naruto when everything is based on japanese history and myths like sasuke and hanzo are named after famous japanese ninjas of the past as a example.


He appears in episode 309 of Naruto Shippuden, reanimated during the War Arc and then Naruto recognizes him. As an Edo he was easily fighting off an entire squad of other 'random' ninja.
Rando ninja are below average as even hayate bodied some of them mind you this guy died to baki remember the jonin squad leader of gaara's team and if hayate of all people can body some rando shinobi then do you think beating these characters is even noteworthy when their hype material for literally anyone including some white zetsu clones and haku.













so what we have here is a guy who makes your average ninja look like fodder,

Average ninja are fodder though as any named characters has beat them when they fought like even asuma took out ten sound jonin causally as did shikaku and choza during the same konoha crush arc.



Also, it was very nice of you to post a heavily edited gif that takes out all the moments of Sasori's puppets keeping up with him but you can watch the full fight

He bodies the puppets in every instance shown like sasori was shocked that he did that well and it's gif so it cant be the entire fight as gif files can only go up to a minute at best so it's going to be edited regardless of who is making said gif plus it could be worse as ive used to think that sasori was below part 1 naruto as he lost to him in a infinite tsukuyomi dream but to my credit, I didt know it was a infinite tsukuyomi dream.

like aside from one puppet parrying a attack once and one puppet attacking the feudal lord's gf from behind, He really does not face much challenge from these puppets including hiruko whom he cut the tail off of like he even blocked most of senbon needles however one touch is enough to kill a person due to the potency of his position so he died


win a 1v100 fight against Zabuza because I do not believe that Zabuza can take out 100 Chunin+ level fighters
I do agree here as just sasuke and naruto was enough to make him move let alone 100 plus puppets who are stronger then those two combined
 
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