Sarada won't be a medic

[Amenotejikara]

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It's not really that simple. He can see it coming but he can't dodge it due to the chakra consistently moving. Shin doesn't have to deal with this kind of chakra though.

it is that simple because sasuke said it himself that he could dodge it later on when previously he couldn't. Sasuke precognition doesn't work on pure chakra movement from what it seems, kinda like frog kata. That's why he went cs1 to give him the physical speed to be able to do what his eyes couldn't, which is exactly the moment he said that all he could do is dodge. So if shin dodged the arm, then it's due to his physical speed included.

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But honestly it doesn't really matter, the execution of kn1 and kcm is the same. Kn1 was infact in control of himself and not wildly because he hid the arm to snatch sasuke, kurama doesn't do that. naruto's style does thou from neji to pain.

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So at the end of day, it still comes down to this.
- both have similar distance
- only shin reacted and dodged.

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That's not really how it works. You don't dodge something in regards to impact/aoe if you are just standing there not expecting it to happen ... That literally never happens.

Sarada jumped in the air, one shin threw a weapon at her, she dodged it, and then she hit the ground with CES blowing them all away. That's all that happened. We already know what happens to Shin if he fights a new generation kid all by himself tho, I mean at least the one's that aren't retarded lol.

The most impressive thing of the feat was how strong she is with CES, but that's really all there is.

Lol no well kinda, it just means they have no way to counter CES, it's as simple as that. if she used that against naruto right then, he would've just blocked the attack with his avatar or tanked in cloak, if she used that against pain he would've blocked the impact with ST regardless if they expected it or not because they still had their sight lined up on sarada. your point would only be right if they did not expect any kind of interference at all. kinda like when sakura came out of no where and blitz shin, that wouldn't be blitz nor would that mean shin react feats is inferior (thou madara did physically react to tsunade entrance).

 

[lndra]

it is that simple because sasuke said it himself that he could dodge it later on when previously he couldn't. Sasuke precognition doesn't work on pure chakra movement from what it seems, kinda like frog kata. That's why he went cs1 to give him the physical speed to be able to do what his eyes couldn't, which is exactly the moment he said that all he could do is dodge. So if shin dodged the arm, then it's due to his physical speed included.

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But honestly it doesn't really matter, the execution of kn1 and kcm is the same. Kn1 was infact in control of himself and not wildly because he hid the arm to snatch sasuke, kurama doesn't do that. naruto's style does thou from neji to pain.

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So at the end of day, it still comes down to this.
- both have similar distance
- only shin reacted and dodged.

I mean based on all of our images, I think the function of the chakra modes works like this:

Naruto in a kyuubi cloak with tails:
~ Chakra is more interactive because Naruto isn't controlling it
~ Moves through instinct/will rather than control
~ Unpredictable

That's why even though the Sharingan can perceive its movements like Sasuke stated, it's interchangeable. It'll move forward, and at a split second notice it can change its direction and do something totally unorthodox. Basically even if Sasuke see's it coming at it, it'll change before he can see it 'change'. Which is why he has hard time maneuvering.

The reason why KCM, BM, RSM, etc. modes are easier to counter, is because Naruto is controlling the chakra. So instead of acting on instinct/will, it's acting on Naruto's skill. However, it's not really a downgrade. What Naruto loses is predictability he gains in power and defensive. Thoughts?

Did Sasuke have trouble countering Killer Bee /w his chakra cloak? I don't really remember the fight well. Anyway back to what we are talking about:

When Sasuke was up against Naruto's chakra cloak

~ The charka arm wasn't static, it moved uncontrollably.

When Shin was up against Naruto's chakra cloak

~ The chakra arm was static, it only moved forward.


* Because Sasuke noted that the only reason why he couldn't perceive it's movements was because Naruto wasn't controlling the Kyuubi's chakra, the 'Kyuubi' was. But when Naruto IS controlling the chakra, the Sharingan can perceive its movements.

That's what I deducted. Idk.

Lol no well kinda, it just means they have no way to counter CES, it's as simple as that. if she used that against naruto right then, he would've just blocked the attack with his avatar or tanked in cloak, if she used that against pain he would've blocked the impact with ST regardless if they expected it or not because they still had their sight lined up on sarada. your point would only be right if they did not expect any kind of interference at all. kinda like when sakura came out of no where and blitz shin, that wouldn't be blitz nor would that mean shin react feats is inferior (thou madara did physically react to tsunade entrance).

Rather than them not having a counter to CES, I just don't think they knew she was going to destroy the ground under them the moment she landed in the middle of the group. Your points make sense but we are forgetting two things:

> The Shin clones aren't really on the mental level of Naruto or Pain for that matter
> They don't have any knowledge of what Sarada can do

If neither Naruto nor Pain knew Sarada or her abilities, and saw her jumping to land near them w/o having some kind of way of perceiving the chakra build up in her body. They most likely would not expect her to use CES, because it's not a technique you would see coming. The precise chakra erupts the moment she touches the object she wants to destroy, so it's a perfect surprise attack unless your opponent jumps out of way to be too cautious.

 

[Amenotejikara]

I mean based on all of our images, I think the function of the chakra modes works like this:

Naruto in a kyuubi cloak with tails:
~ Chakra is more interactive because Naruto isn't controlling it
~ Moves through instinct/will rather than control
~ Unpredictable

That's why even though the Sharingan can perceive its movements like Sasuke stated, it's interchangeable. It'll move forward, and at a split second notice it can change its direction and do something totally unorthodox. Basically even if Sasuke see's it coming at it, it'll change before he can see it 'change'. Which is why he has hard time maneuvering.

The reason why KCM, BM, RSM, etc. modes are easier to counter, is because Naruto is controlling the chakra. So instead of acting on instinct/will, it's acting on Naruto's skill. However, it's not really a downgrade. What Naruto loses is predictability he gains in power and defensive. Thoughts?

I get it and it makes sense but I disagree. Sasuke had to of assume it had a mind of it's own because he didn't understand wtf naruto was until shippuden. Jiraiya iirc said, naruto still had control over himself until the 4th tail released, his mental state slipped tail by tail but it was still naruto. the 1st tail in vote1, naruto did stuff that only naruto himself could do. 1. snatch sasuke with the chakra arm by using the debris/ground whatever to hide his arm. 2 form rasengan 3. scratch sasuke's headband. naruto was in full control then, so why wouldn't he be in control when he ****** slap sasuke the first 2 times with the chakra arm? All 1-3 tails do is make naruto slip from himself making him more aggressive and less reasonable, that doesn't suggest he's not controlling the chakra. if he is becoming less predictable, then it really doesn't take effect till KN2-3. you can't say kn1 is not predictable when he did the most predictable thing which was to end the fight with a typical rasenganxchidori clash. lol

Did Sasuke have trouble countering Killer Bee /w his chakra cloak? I don't really remember the fight well. Anyway back to what we are talking about:

No because B's physical movement was w/ the chakra cloak, therefore sasuke precognition kicked in. if you look at naruto's case. sasuke did actually react to kn1 physical arm the same as he did against Killer B however unlike B, naruto detached chakra arm (that sasuke can't precog) which is what caught sasuke. That's why sasuke had to buff himself to curse seal because it essentially increases his reaction feats but also his foot speed for him to dodge the chakra arm (but naruto being naruto, was smart enough to snatch him from the debris)

When Sasuke was up against Naruto's chakra cloak

~ The charka arm wasn't static, it moved uncontrollably.

When Shin was up against Naruto's chakra cloak

~ The chakra arm was static, it only moved forward.

I honestly don't see the difference from this to shin
- Killer B had full control over his bijuu and his chakra looked no different than kn1
- even KN4 chakra arm looked about as smooth as RSM

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you mean this?

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Naruto intended this lol. this wasn't random at all.

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* Because Sasuke noted that the only reason why he couldn't perceive it's movements was because Naruto wasn't controlling the Kyuubi's chakra, the 'Kyuubi' was. But when Naruto IS controlling the chakra, the Sharingan can perceive its movements.

That's what I deducted. Idk.

I don't remember him saying or implying that. All he knew was that naruto had special chakra. Naruto IS controlling the chakra in vote1. only difference between this and KCM is that the latter lacks any negative effects/influence.

Rather than them not having a counter to CES, I just don't think they knew she was going to destroy the ground under them the moment she landed in the middle of the group. Your points make sense but we are forgetting two things:

> The Shin clones aren't really on the mental level of Naruto or Pain for that matter
> They don't have any knowledge of what Sarada can do

If neither Naruto nor Pain knew Sarada or her abilities, and saw her jumping to land near them w/o having some kind of way of perceiving the chakra build up in her body. They most likely would not expect her to use CES, because it's not a technique you would see coming. The precise chakra erupts the moment she touches the object she wants to destroy, so it's a perfect surprise attack unless your opponent jumps out of way to be too cautious.

intelligence/intel is a factor I agree, but honestly I don't believe it matters as much. There's a lot of should've could've would've in the manga but that's not how we should base that on, the arguments would never end. Now this might be a poor example because I'm tired asf right and the only one I can think of atm but i'll post it anyway. here sasuke see's deidara for the first time (w/o sharingan on) while standing still, has enough time to pull up his snake defensive shield to protect him from it's Aoe. sasuke wouldn't know what kind of attack it was but he prepared for it anyway.

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Yes CES is a effective surprise attack but honestly it's just as good if it weren't. why? ignoring the requirements of jumping in the air for momentum (not needed btw)the essential function of CES: impact is that it's simply touching the ground to trigger it's massive aoe. I personally don't believe most characters could within close-mid range would be able to dodge amount of energy release for ces. so unless they distance/intercept the user right before she touches the ground, they have no choice but to block it and if they don't use the proper blocking technique or some tank ability it's basically GG because there is really nothing to visibly track to react since they're already technically within the Aoe before it's even released. that's why shin despite having mangekyou couldn't get out of it.

 

[lndra]

I get it and it makes sense but I disagree. Sasuke had to of assume it had a mind of it's own because he didn't understand wtf naruto was until shippuden. Jiraiya iirc said, naruto still had control over himself until the 4th tail released, his mental state slipped tail by tail but it was still naruto. the 1st tail in vote1, naruto did stuff that only naruto himself could do. 1. snatch sasuke with the chakra arm by using the debris/ground whatever to hide his arm. 2 form rasengan 3. scratch sasuke's headband. naruto was in full control then, so why wouldn't he be in control when he ****** slap sasuke the first 2 times with the chakra arm? All 1-3 tails do is make naruto slip from himself making him more aggressive and less reasonable, that doesn't suggest he's not controlling the chakra. if he is becoming less predictable, then it really doesn't take effect till KN2-3. you can't say kn1 is not predictable when he did the most predictable thing which was to end the fight with a typical rasenganxchidori clash. lol

I think Sasuke made the deduction based on what he was seeing through the chakra. Shippuden Naruto had some form of control of the Kyuubi's chakra, but honestly that wasn't really the case when against Deidara he lost control at the slightest hitch when he was angry about Gaara. In VoTE2, Naruto might have been in a conscious mind state, but the chakra 'itself' is not what he's capable of controlling yet. That's why it has a mind of its own, similar to Gaara's sand (but also different -- analogy works though).

No because B's physical movement was w/ the chakra cloak, therefore sasuke precognition kicked in. if you look at naruto's case. sasuke did actually react to kn1 physical arm the same as he did against Killer B however unlike B, naruto detached chakra arm (that sasuke can't precog) which is what caught sasuke. That's why sasuke had to buff himself to curse seal because it essentially increases his reaction feats but also his foot speed for him to dodge the chakra arm (but naruto being naruto, was smart enough to snatch him from the debris)

Makes sense. I'm not gonna look back to clarify b/c it doesn't really matter for this debate.

I honestly don't see the difference from this to shin
- Killer B had full control over his bijuu and his chakra looked no different than kn1
- even KN4 chakra arm looked about as smooth as RSM

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Well I'm not really arguing for Killer Bee, since he's a PJ and Naruto had no control over his Kyuubi chakra.

I don't really think the importance is the look, but rather what Naruto is capable of controlling.

you mean this?
Naruto intended this lol. this wasn't random at all.

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Do we have a statement or something from Naruto where he clarifies that he was doing that on purpose? Or are we just assuming? Just making sure b/c it wouldn't make sense if he could control the kyuubi chakra to that extent since he learned some form of master after training with Jiraiya.

What-ever that hack taught him lmfao.

I don't remember him saying or implying that. All he knew was that naruto had special chakra. Naruto IS controlling the chakra in vote1. only difference between this and KCM is that the latter lacks any negativeeffects/influence.

I brought the VIZ. Sasuke clarified that the chakra was acting on its own despite Naruto's movements being clear:

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intelligence/intel is a factor I agree, but honestly I don't believe it matters as much. There's a lot of should've could've would've in the manga but that's not how we should base that on, the arguments would never end. Now this might be a poor example because I'm tired asf right and the only one I can think of atm but i'll post it anyway. here sasuke see's deidara for the first time (w/o sharingan on) while standing still, has enough time to pull up his snake defensive shield to protect him from it's Aoe. sasuke wouldn't know what kind of attack it was but he prepared for it anyway.

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I agree, but for Sasuke's example, he's far more intelligent than these Clones are. I don't think they have been shown to be the smartest bunch of the lab experiments if you catch my drift.

Yes CES is a effective surprise attack but honestly it's just as good if it weren't. why? ignoring the requirements of jumping in the air for momentum (not needed btw)the essential function of CES: impact is that it's simply touching the ground to trigger it's massive aoe. I personally don't believe most characters could within close-mid range would be able to dodge amount of energy release for ces. so unless they distance/intercept the user right before she touches the ground, they have no choice but to block it and if they don't use the proper blocking technique or some tank ability it's basically GG because there is really nothing to visibly track to react since they're already technically within the Aoe before it's even released. that's why shin despite having mangekyou couldn't get out of it.

I don't really get why they wouldn't be able to. The only thing important needing to dodge CES is knowing that it's coming, at least for the momentum needed before you actually launch yourself down. There is a time gap - Even the Shin's reacted accordingly to Sarada's jump, meaning they were aware of something happening. But the release down they decided not to act until she actually hit them, but at that point its too late.

I would think most ninja who get GG'd by the impact are either:

* Brain dead or stupid (Juubi Clones)
* Didn't know it was coming (Shin Clones)
* The person using it is much, much, much faster than they are. (Idk if anyone has been attacked by this via Tsunade/Sakura but fill in for me if they have)

When it comes to usual 1 on 1's this ability is usually trash because of how obvious it is, but the regular CES take down is much strategic since it's based on the users Taijutsu/other skills.

 

[Shruikan]

I think Sasuke made the deduction based on what he was seeing through the chakra. Shippuden Naruto had some form of control of the Kyuubi's chakra, but honestly that wasn't really the case when against Deidara he lost control at the slightest hitch when he was angry about Gaara. In VoTE2, Naruto might have been in a conscious mind state, but the chakra 'itself' is not what he's capable of controlling yet. That's why it has a mind of its own, similar to Gaara's sand (but also different -- analogy works though).




Makes sense. I'm not gonna look back to clarify b/c it doesn't really matter for this debate.




Well I'm not really arguing for Killer Bee, since he's a PJ and Naruto had no control over his Kyuubi chakra.

I don't really think the importance is the look, but rather what Naruto is capable of controlling.


Do we have a statement or something from Naruto where he clarifies that he was doing that on purpose? Or are we just assuming? Just making sure b/c it wouldn't make sense if he could control the kyuubi chakra to that extent since he learned some form of master after training with Jiraiya.

What-ever that hack taught him lmfao.



I brought the VIZ. Sasuke clarified that the chakra was acting on its own despite Naruto's movements being clear:

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I agree, but for Sasuke's example, he's far more intelligent than these Clones are. I don't think they have been shown to be the smartest bunch of the lab experiments if you catch my drift.



I don't really get why they wouldn't be able to. The only thing important needing to dodge CES is knowing that it's coming, at least for the momentum needed before you actually launch yourself down. There is a time gap - Even the Shin's reacted accordingly to Sarada's jump, meaning they were aware of something happening. But the release down they decided not to act until she actually hit them, but at that point its too late.

I would think most ninja who get GG'd by the impact are either:

* Brain dead or stupid (Juubi Clones)
* Didn't know it was coming (Shin Clones)
* The person using it is much, much, much faster than they are. (Idk if anyone has been attacked by this via Tsunade/Sakura but fill in for me if they have)

When it comes to usual 1 on 1's this ability is usually trash because of how obvious it is, but the regular CES take down is much strategic since it's based on the users Taijutsu/other skills.

I felt the last fight of Part 1 was the only part where Naruto was actually controlling the chakra. He later regressed after Jiraiya trained him lol

 

[Made in Heaven]

No its not. Apart from Shin any other MS wipes the floor with Byakugan(Obito's MS with Rikudo was what helped seal even Kaguya) and if you actually even try to argue this don't bother to quote me as only a troll could do so and I am not going to waste my time with a hardcore Hyuuga fan

MS abilities themselves aren't a threat to the Byakugan.

All Genutsu is meaningless. Amaterasu and Blaze Style can be countered with Rotation or Gentle Fists' ability to destroy Chakra, likewise for Susano'O, with Susano'O's swords and arrows being blocked by Rotation (this would be possible considering what Neji/Hiashi pulled off). Kamui... I don't even know how that thing works, so w/e.

What you need to do is clarify that the USERS are a threat. The problem is you're talking about these eyes as if they're living being and not tools. It's the same with Fire and Water techs. Water overwhelms Fire if the users are on the same level, but Madara's Fire Style easily overwhelms most Water Style users.

Same thing applies here. Byakugan techs are natural counters to MS abilities, but most MS users are more skilled than Byakugan users.

Don't care, what I said is a proof that Sakura is more useful than Hinata:lol

You bring up their wills, then switch the argument to their usefulness when you fail to prove the former.

april fools is on the 1st not 30th. 12yr old knocking out several ms users w/o cheap handouts is nothing to call weak. The fact shes uchiha implies her potency in ces with be as strong if not stronger than tsunade (whose feat broke madaras rib cage and swords that not even raikage could do without onoki) or does that qualify as weak these days?

Salad didn't knock out a single Shin. More like mildy annoyed them before Naruto scared them into submission. Pay more attention to the panels, you'll see.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Lol only appear like fodders against demi gods. That kid shin reacted and dodged adult naruto's chakra arm something vote sasuke couldn't do at all within similar distance and i would assume that adult chakra arm speed > vote naruto speed. Yet several of them couldn't react in time to counter or dodge ces then knocked out by the sheer force of ces.

that's area of effect...one on one she got wrecked

 

[Amenotejikara]

I think Sasuke made the deduction based on what he was seeing through the chakra. Shippuden Naruto had some form of control of the Kyuubi's chakra, but honestly that wasn't really the case when against Deidara he lost control at the slightest hitch when he was angry about Gaara. In VoTE2, Naruto might have been in a conscious mind state, but the chakra 'itself' is not what he's capable of controlling yet. That's why it has a mind of its own, similar to Gaara's sand (but also different -- analogy works though).

iirc jiraiya said he had control of KN1-2 until he tweaked it. He leaked out kn4 and made it more difficult for his previous forms to be controllable. for the life of me I can't find that chapter, I think it was the same chapter where he showed his bruised marks from kn4 and tsunade.

mind of it's own like gaara? Hm, I don't know maybe that's possible. wasn't the sand retcon to be his mother's will?

Makes sense. I'm not gonna look back to clarify b/c it doesn't really matter for this debate.

glad you brought it up thou, I always thought kn1 foot speed >> kn0. but his speed is just slightly buffed.

Well I'm not really arguing for Killer Bee, since he's a PJ and Naruto had no control over his Kyuubi chakra.

I don't really think the importance is the look, but rather what Naruto is capable of controlling.

But isn't that what you were doing? I don't see an real evidences other than sasuke's statement based on his pure ignorance of nature of chakra he was facing. At this point. I don't see any real point in arguing cause it's not going anywhere. I noticed you're in the unorthodox base as I am (don't know why I was invited to join lol) But I do know KG and ice are intelligent enough to know whether or not naruto was in control of what his chakra arms. so we can take it privately there if you want. (I really want to know the answer)

Do we have a statement or something from Naruto where he clarifies that he was doing that on purpose? Or are we just assuming? Just making sure b/c it wouldn't make sense if he could control the kyuubi chakra to that extent since he learned some form of master after training with Jiraiya.

What-ever that hack taught him lmfao.

As above, There is no direct statement but jiraiya do say something like naruto's mental state is still there despite becoming more irrational with each tail release. And logically, doing stuff like vote1 naruto forming rasengan, I think he even used the kurama chakra as a outer shell to form the rasengan so he doesn't have to use shadow clones, then use his terrain as a advantage to snatch sasuke with his arm. all of that is naruto's doing. there is no psudeo control between naruto and kurama. it's either naruto is in control of the chakra or he's not. I think there is a misconception about cloak tails, just because naruto acts more animal instinct doesn't mean he's not willingly doing his actions, what's changing is that per tail release he becomes less irrational and more aggressive then once he reached kn4 then kurama has grip of naruto's mental state. Kurama knows that, that's why he has to constantly remind naruto of all the negativity because he knows that since he can't control naruto yet, he emotionally baits naruto like a troll (literally lol) to get to the 4th tail then later KN6-9 tails as quick asap. So yes, kn1 had to of willingly use his chakra arms to smack sasuke.

I brought the VIZ. Sasuke clarified that the chakra was acting on its own despite Naruto's movements being clear:

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doesn't really change anything because sasuke's statement was in context of what he only understood at the time. all the viz translation clarifies more is that pure chakra arms negs the crap out of precognition.

I agree, but for Sasuke's example, he's far more intelligent than these Clones are. I don't think they have been shown to be the smartest bunch of the lab experiments if you catch my drift.

but even if shin was smart he wouldn't had be able to evade the CES the moment sarada made contact to the ground. That's what I like about ces, there is no medium. the moment it contacts the pressure released is immidiate because it's not ninjutsu.



I don't really get why they wouldn't be able to. The only thing important needing to dodge CES is knowing that it's coming, at least for the momentum needed before you actually launch yourself down. There is a time gap - Even the Shin's reacted accordingly to Sarada's jump, meaning they were aware of something happening. But the release down they decided not to act until she actually hit them, but at that point its too late.

I would think most ninja who get GG'd by the impact are either:

* Brain dead or stupid (Juubi Clones)
* Didn't know it was coming (Shin Clones)
* The person using it is much, much, much faster than they are. (Idk if anyone has been attacked by this via Tsunade/Sakura but fill in for me if they have)

When it comes to usual 1 on 1's this ability is usually trash because of how obvious it is, but the regular CES take down is much strategic since it's based on the users Taijutsu/other skills.

That is correct. But I don't see where intelligence would've made a difference. any logical person would've just waited for sarada to land back onto the ground, then they gang up on her since the only range technique they had was a weapon which is useless against sharingan. the issue isn't intellect, the problem is lack of intel and lack of proper jutsus. CES would've failed had sarada not have sharingan unlocked, so shin inability to successfully counter is not his fault. all this panel confirms is that you're essentially screwed by sarada's CES in cqc unless you have an very- immediate defensive techniques or physical speed and even if you have both, w/o intel the chances of properly countering is down to a selected few. That's what I like ces, because it's not a ninjutsu it lacks any form of medium. it just erupts the moment she contacts the ground, the greater the momentum the greater the AoE.

Salad didn't knock out a single Shin. More like mildy annoyed them before Naruto scared them into submission. Pay more attention to the panels, you'll see.

that's area of effect...one on one she got wrecked

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[thgt89]

At this point she is going to be irrelevant like everybody that is not Bort are going to be.

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

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shin was about to kill chocho and sarada before naruto showed up

 

[Vulpini]

shin was about to kill chocho and sarada before naruto showed up

"Shin was about to kill them"
Not even close. The guy didn't even touch them. :lol

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What kind of "killing" is this that you talk about?

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

"Shin was about to kill them"
Not even close. The guy didn't even touch them. :lol

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What kind of "killing" is this that you talk about?

you forgot a page...and sarada was next

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[Amenotejikara]

shin was about to kill chocho and sarada before naruto showed up

She held her own in base against 3t user for a bit. That's massively impressive for her age.. 1t sarada is what enabled her to counter shin.

 

[lndra]

iirc jiraiya said he had control of KN1-2 until he tweaked it. He leaked out kn4 and made it more difficult for his previous forms to be controllable. for the life of me I can't find that chapter, I think it was the same chapter where he showed his bruised marks from kn4 and tsunade.

That makes sense, I think

mind of it's own like gaara? Hm, I don't know maybe that's possible. wasn't the sand retcon to be his mother's will?

I'm not 100%, it never really made sense anyway TBH since his mother was dead. I dunno if they explained that it was her chakra or not in the afterlife, but that wouldn't work either.

It was probably something dealing with his Bijuu at that time. I don't know if Gaara has the same ability now that's tailed beast-less

But isn't that what you were doing? I don't see an real evidences other than sasuke's statement based on his pure ignorance of nature of chakra he was facing. At this point. I don't see any real point in arguing cause it's not going anywhere. I noticed you're in the unorthodox base as I am (don't know why I was invited to join lol) But I do know KG and ice are intelligent enough to know whether or not naruto was in control of what his chakra arms. so we can take it privately there if you want. (I really want to know the answer)

It's not really that simple IMO. I do think that Naruto is controlling the chakra arm, but he isn't controlling the chakra itself.

That's the difference. He may have wanted to use the arm to strike Naruto, but, the chakra itself is moving on its own. We can take it there.

As above, There is no direct statement but jiraiya do say something like naruto's mental state is still there despite becoming more irrational with each tail release. And logically, doing stuff like vote1 naruto forming rasengan, I think he even used the kurama chakra as a outer shell to form the rasengan so he doesn't have to use shadow clones, then use his terrain as a advantage to snatch sasuke with his arm. all of that is naruto's doing. there is no psudeo control between naruto and kurama. it's either naruto is in control of the chakra or he's not. I think there is a misconception about cloak tails, just because naruto acts more animal instinct doesn't mean he's not willingly doing his actions, what's changing is that per tail release he becomes less irrational and more aggressive then once he reached kn4 then kurama has grip of naruto's mental state. Kurama knows that, that's why he has to constantly remind naruto of all the negativity because he knows that since he can't control naruto yet, he emotionally baits naruto like a troll (literally lol) to get to the 4th tail then later KN6-9 tails as quick asap. So yes, kn1 had to of willingly use his chakra arms to smack sasuke.

I see at bold. Anyway I kind of responded to the second question in the above post (I don't feel like writing a paragraph back TBH xd)

doesn't really change anything because sasuke's statement was in context of what he only understood at the time. all the viz translation clarifies more is that pure chakra arms negs the crap out of precognition.

It should change it though, Sasuke is clarifying what he can see with his Sharingan, more in-detail than what anyone could tell with normal eyes.

That transition doesn't clarify that chakra arms stops precognition, it even states that Sasuke can see his movements clearly. But the chakra moves on its own, which becomes hard to predict. That's the issue with the tailed beast when he's not controlling everything.

That is correct. But I don't see where intelligence would've made a difference. any logical person would've just waited for sarada to land back onto the ground, then they gang up on her since the only range technique they had was a weapon which is useless against sharingan. the issue isn't intellect, the problem is lack of intel and lack of proper jutsus. CES would've failed had sarada not have sharingan unlocked, so shin inability to successfully counter is not his fault. all this panel confirms is that you're essentially screwed by sarada's CES in cqc unless you have an very- immediate defensive techniques or physical speed and even if you have both, w/o intel the chances of properly countering is down to a selected few. That's what I like ces, because it's not a ninjutsu it lacks any form of medium. it just erupts the moment she contacts the ground, the greater the momentum the greater the AoE.

You're definitely right, it's a mixture of both. Intelligence, and lack of intel.

But necessarily I don't think anyone is screwed unless you just don't have intel on her abilities, or if she's just far, far superior to you in just speed. On that note, it wouldn't even matter because it would be wasted effort. She would just to jump in the air, wait to fall down, and then hit the ground. She could easily just punch someone in the face :lol

 

[minamoto]

She held her own in base against 3t user for a bit. That's massively impressive for her age.. 1t sarada is what enabled her to counter shin.

Jimontikara...what did i say about posting your fanfics??? huh????

 

[shelke]

MS abilities themselves aren't a threat to the Byakugan.

All Genutsu is meaningless. Amaterasu and Blaze Style can be countered with Rotation or Gentle Fists' ability to destroy Chakra, likewise for Susano'O, with Susano'O's swords and arrows being blocked by Rotation (this would be possible considering what Neji/Hiashi pulled off). Kamui... I don't even know how that thing works, so w/e.

Same thing applies here. Byakugan techs are natural counters to MS abilities, but most MS users are more skilled than Byakugan users.

What? Are you trolling?