sage mode is okay

[Meowazziel]

Minato and Sage mode. It could be a plot no jutsu, BUT it doesnt have to be one.
Please keep an open mind and let me explain this.

Why did we never see Minato go sage mode on Naruto's birth (Kyuubi attack 16 years ago)?
Did he have time to go sage mode on Naruto's birth (Kyuubi attack 16 years ago)?
He didnt go into sage mode back than. Is that weird?
The only possible explanations I can give are that he felt that he didnt have time
(with having to save Naruto from the explosions, Kushina from being smashed by the Kyuubi's
punch, having to save the villagers from Kyuubi attacks. It was quite the rush.
Or maybe he felt that he could handle the situation without sage mode,
or maybe he couldnt do it while alive. I rather not believe the latter, but who knows.

Why was Minato not mentioned during Naruto's sage mode training?

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That was not required. The topics that Naruto and Pa toad were talking about,
were how Naruto didnt want to give up the training, because he wanted
to become as strong as Jiraiya and how not anyone can do the training,
you need to have large reserves of chakra. Jiraiya was the name that
was brought into the conversation. Even the word specifically is not a problem, due
to Jiraiya and Naruto being the names that are discussed (next to this, we deal with
translations, and not every translation is the same).
Not having mentioned Minato here is no error and doesnt harm the story or his character
in any way. There were probably sages before Jiraiya, but those werent mentioned either.

Why did he not go sage mode vs Juubi jinc Obito?
While Edo, the explanations for not going sage mode are easier to find.
Yang Kurama in the past, didnt allow Naruto to go sage mode, because
he didnt want Naruto to use sage mode chakra instead of Kurama's chakra.
Basically the reason for Yang Kurama to not allow it was pride.

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The same could be the case for Yin Kurama.
Even though Yin Kurama wanted to help Naruto and Minato vs Juubi jinc Obito,
he didnt have to step over his pride to help out. Naruto could infuse Minato's
rasengan after all.
Another reason could be that he wants the new generation to take over and
let them be the main stars.

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Not going sage mode didnt make them weaker at that time.
Next to this, maybe Minato was not capable of using the two modes at the same time.
When Yin Kurama was unsealed, nothing was holding Minato back from going
sage mode.


It doesnt have to be plot no jutsu.
I am not saying that Kishi having never showed Minato using sage mode in battle before
is great writing (one could interpret the next scan as an indirect way of
saying Minato had sage mode though, because the topic right there is having achieved
sage mode).

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But I believe it could be explained why we never saw Minato use it before, without requiring
a plot no jutsu or additional information from Kishi.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Agni Kai]

Agreed 100%. The only real inconsistency I find with Minato using SM is its perfection. While it was never stated directly that Minato could use SM, it was heavily implied, as you say. And it was also implied Naruto was the only one to be able to use SM perfectly.

 

[D R E X]

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[JIRAIYA perv]

no offence but i stopped reading after the first explanation about his encounter with Obito U_U

"didn't have time" ?? he did it/transformed almost instantly in the latest chapter.

as for his encounter with Juubito, it didn't even cross his mind :yeah: yep that is called lousy writing ........................... that's the real explanation.

 

[Meowazziel]

no offence but i stopped reading after the first explanation about his encounter with Obito U_U

"didn't have time" ?? he did it/transformed almost instantly in the latest chapter.

as for his encounter with Juubito, it didn't even cross his mind :yeah: yep that is called lousy writing ........................... that's the real explanation.

It didnt have to be instantly at all. He has been standing still more or less the complete chapter.
That conversation between Obito and Madara could have lasted minutes. If Minato has been standing still all that time to
go into sage mode, than he did have plenty time.

As for vs Juubi jinc Obito. Yin Kurama is not as much befriended with Minato as Yang Kurama is with Naruto.

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Yin Kurama is being amazed by Naruto treating him as a peer. So the pride explanation is a possible one.

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

It didnt have to be instantly at all. He has been standing still more or less the complete chapter.
That conversation between Obito and Madara could have lasted minutes. If Minato has been standing still all that time to
go into sage mode, than he did have plenty time.

As for vs Juubi jinc Obito. Yin Kurama is not as much befriended with Minato as Yang Kurama is with Naruto.

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Yin Kurama is being amazed by Naruto treating him as a peer. So the pride explanation is a possible one.

lets say he was transforming the whole time Obito and Madara were speaking for the sake of the argument (though he did transform fast just like his son), he had time during the Kyuubi's incident/more than a minute and he wasn't pushed in the fight the whole time.

the whole "Kurama's pride" argument is not valid in my opinion.

first of all he had access to Kurama's chakra meaning he didn't need Kurama's approval.
second the only thing about Kurama and his pride that was mentioned in the manga was about the time Naruto tried to fuse with PA during his Senjutsu training, that's why Kurama said "i don't want to share my room with a frog".
and third NAruto NEVER had trouble using SM and he learned/used it BEFORE he and Kurama became friends/didn't need Kurama's approval matter fact he didn't even have any control over Kurama at that time.

no good sir Minato just came up with one of the biggest ass pulls in this arc.

 

[Meowazziel]

lets say he was transforming the whole time Obito and Madara were speaking for the sake of the argument (though he did transform fast just like his son), he had time during the Kyuubi's incident/more than a minute and he wasn't pushed in the fight the whole time.

the whole "Kurama's pride" argument is not valid in my opinion.

first of all he had access to Kurama's chakra meaning he didn't need Kurama's approval.
second the only thing about Kurama and his pride that was mentioned in the manga was about the time Naruto tried to fuse with PA during his Senjutsu training, that's why Kurama said "i don't want to share my room with a frog".
and third NAruto NEVER had trouble using SM and he learned/used it BEFORE he and Kurama became friends/didn't need Kurama's approval.

I used more possiblities than only not having enough time. I find the time argument debatetable after he saved Kushina from getting one hit KO punched by Kurama.
Does he choose to not lose any time and head to the village quickly to help or does he choose to go sage mode first and lose some time and as I said, there were more possible reasons for not going sage mode vs Obito 16 years ago.

Yin Kurama worked together with Minato to go in some half KCM half BM+Kurama appearance kind of mode, so the approval of Yin Kurama would have been needed to combine it with SM.

Kurama said as well to Naruto (as you can read from my scans in the same picture that you refer too yourself), that he didnt like senjutsu being used by Naruto, when his chakra is available (pride in his chakra). It wasnt only the a problem of sharing his room with a toad.
However you said you stopped reading after a certain point and that can cause you to miss important parts of the thread. Reading everything saves me from having to redirect to the thread.

I dont get your third argument. I never said anything like needing Kurama's approval to use only SM.
Kurama's approval is needed to use Kurama modes + SM together.

 

[JIRAIYA perv]

Yin Kurama worked together with Minato to go in some half KCM half BM+Kurama appearance kind of mode, so the approval of Yin Kurama would have been needed to combine it with SM.

Kurama said as well to Naruto (as you can read from my scans in the same picture that you refer too yourself), that he didnt like senjutsu being used by Naruto, when his chakra is available (pride in his chakra). It wasnt only the a problem of sharingan his room with a toad.

I dont get your third argument. I never said anything like needing Kurama's approval to use only SM.
Kurama's approval is needed to use Kurama modes + SM together.

i'm not talking about fusing SM with Kurama's chakra, i'm talking about using SM alone.

you skipped what i said about his encounter with Obito during the Kyuubi's invasion. Minato did have more than a minute to transform, though i HIGHLY doubt that he needs that much time (juts agreed for the sake of the argument), it seemed almost instant.

as for the bold/my third argument, exactly so if Minato doesn't need Kurama's approval to use SM ALONE so why didn't he even think about it during their fight against Juubito ?? he even died because he didn't have chakra to keep fighting the Kyuubi, yet he had SM in his arsenal ................................ i mean to keep such a strong card hidden is just silly and to use now out of nowhere is even more silly U_U

 

[Meowazziel]

you skipped what i said about his encounter with Obito during the Kyuubi's invasion. Minato did have more than a minute to transform, though i HIGHLY doubt that he needs that much time (juts agreed for the sake of the argument), it seemed almost instant.

as for the bold/my third argument, exactly so if Minato doesn't need Kurama's approval to use SM ALONE so why didn't he even think about it during their fight against Juubito ?? he even died because he didn't have chakra to keep fighting the Kyuubi, yet he had SM in his arsenal ................................ i mean to keep such a strong card hidden is just silly.

I added the part about Kyuubi invasion in Konoha and expanded some other parts.
Ill continue here and ill repeat a bit.

When should Minato have gone SM in the Kyuubi attack 16 years ago?
He had to save Naruto from explosives. FTG back to Kushina to save her from 1hit KO by a Kurama punch.
Had to quickly go to the village to stop Kurama from doing to much damage to the village (at this point he could have chosen to go SM and arrive later at the village though, but he didnt). But as said, I gave more possible reasons than not having enough time.

About the rest.
Why would Minato use SM alone vs Juubi jinc Obito, if he can use all that Kurama chakra and have Naruto infuse his Rasengan?

You say you just agreed for the sake of argument, that Minato didnt use SM instantly in front of Juubi jinc Madara.
However there is no picture that proves that he used it instantly. There is only a picture that he gains the sage eyes, but
it is possible that he used the time of the conversation, to go SM. It am not saying it is fact. I just give possiblities.

About dying vs the kyuubi 16 years ago. He would have died anyway regardless of using senjutsu at that moment, because that is the penalty for using the death reaper seal. Next to this, senjutsu energy needs to be combined with your own chakra (I cant remember if he was out of chakra though, could you provide a scan?). Also for the sake of argument, if he was out of chakra, than he didnt had the chakra to combine with Senjutsu energy anyway and it wouldnt have helped at the end, where he sealed the Kyuubi anyway, due to the death penalty of using the death reaper seal.

I hope these additional explanations make it more clear.

 

[Draxus]

Minato have sage mode is definitely okay... that still doesn't mean it wasn't an ass pull. At least the way I define it. Which is a plot device created for pure convenience w/o any prior foreshadowing despite opportunities to do so.

Even if you don't agree with my definition, it's still poor writing on Kishi's part. However you wanna explain it, the point is there is an unexplained retcon here.

 

[Meowazziel]

Minato have sage mode is definitely okay... that still doesn't mean it wasn't an ass pull. At least the way I define it. Which is a plot device created for pure convenience w/o any prior foreshadowing despite opportunities to do so.

Even if you don't agree with my definition, it's still poor writing on Kishi's part.

The thing is, its not the case that there was NO foreschadowing at all as you can read from the thread.
There was some, it was just not that obvious.
I believe the foreshadowing could have been done better though.

Which part of my possible explanations do you find lacking, because you say there is still an unexplained retcon.

 

[Draxus]

The thing is, its not the case that there was NO foreschadowing at all as you can read from the thread.
There was some, it was just not that obvious.
I believe the foreshadowing could have been done better though.

Which part of my possible explanations do you find lacking, because you say there is still an unexplained retcon.

You're explanation is fine, but it's not Kishi's so it's not canon. You're making plausible excuses as to why he could have it or why didn't use it before. However it was pretty clear until this chapter that Minato didn't have SM. Just because you can squeeze a square peg into a circular hole, doesn't make it right.

If you think Kishi had always intended for Minato to have SM, or at least since Naruto's SM training arc, then that's your choice. However I can't agree to that at all.

 

[Naruto99Uzumaki]

minato did it instantly like his nickname!

 

[Meowazziel]

You're explanation is fine, but it's not Kishi's so it's not canon. You're making plausible excuses as to why he could have it or why didn't use it before. However it was pretty clear until this chapter that Minato didn't have SM. Just because you can squeeze a square peg into a circular hole, doesn't make it right.

If you think Kishi had always intended for Minato to have SM, or at least since Naruto's SM training arc, then that's your choice. However I can't agree to that at all.

My explanations are not Kishi's, so its not all canon indeed, unless you consider some pages to explain themselfs.
It is more of a search for possibilities or a theory.

I prefer the words possible or plausible explanations over plausible excuses.
Excuses sound to me like he made some huge error in his story.
However that is where we might disagree.

Lot of people (including myself at first) were under the impression that it was a big plot hole that Minato showed SM.
The only thing I want to show with the thread, is that it is possible to come up with plausible explanations how Minato
has SM.
I dont know if Kishi intended Minato to have SM or not. I dont feel that is that imporant.
I dont really care if he intended it or not as long as it is possible to explain that Minato has SM.

minato did it instantly like his nickname!

Haha =D.

 

[Draxus]

My explanations are not Kishi's, so its not all canon indeed, unless you consider some pages to explain themselfs.
It is more of a search for possibilities or a theory.

I prefer the words possible or plausible explanations over plausible excuses.
Excuses sound to me like he made some huge error in his story.
However that is where we might disagree.

Lot of people (including myself at first) were under the impression that it was a big plot hole that Minato showed SM.
The only thing I want to show with the thread, is that it is possible to come up with plausible explanations how Minato
has SM.
I dont know if Kishi intended Minato to have SM or not. I dont feel that is that imporant.
I dont really care if he intended it or not as long as it is possible to explain that Minato has SM.

Glad we could come to an understanding. We agree it's not a plot hole at least.

I don't think Kishi made a huge err or plot hole, however I do think it is poor writing, and that's why I said "excuse". Whether he always intended for Minato to have SM is important to me, because that's the difference between it being an ass pull or not. Hopeful we'll get a explaination/retcon in the next few chapters or so. Once we have that, i'll stop calling it an ass pull.

 

[Gyakusetsu]

Minato's clear surprise and the way he addresses it as Jiraiya's senjutsu doesn't make any sense. If he had said Naruto has also mastered senjutsu I would not question it.

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Minato still doesn't mention anything as the team plans to take on Obito. If the team had known additional strategies could be formulated.

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[Meowazziel]

Glad we could come to an understanding. We agree it's not a plot hole at least.

I don't think Kishi made a huge err or plot hole, however I do think it is poor writing, and that's why I said "excuse".

Thats okay. I know what you mean and you can call it an error if you want though. The writing about Minato having SM could have been done better. Good to know that we understand each other .

 

[minatouzumaki17]

Reason why Pa only mentioned Jiraiya and Naruto is because theyre the only ones he taught.
Minato didnt have to learn from Pa because he had Jiraiya to teach him.
Minato speaks very formal and since he learned it from Jiraiya he calls it Jiraiya's Senjutsu
Pa did mention you have to have an enormous amount of chakra to use sage mode which evidence points to him having.

 

[Meowazziel]

Gyakusetsu, to answer your points raised, I would say this:

Minato's clear surprise and the way he addresses it as Jiraiya's senjutsu doesn't make any sense. If he had said Naruto has also mastered senjutsu I would not question it.

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Minato still doesn't mention anything as the team plans to take on Obito. If the team had known additional strategies could be formulated.

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gets answered by this: (good points Minatouzumaki17)

Reason why Pa only mentioned Jiraiya and Naruto is because theyre the only ones he taught.
Minato didnt have to learn from Pa because he had Jiraiya to teach him.
Minato speaks very formal and since he learned it from Jiraiya he calls it Jiraiya's Senjutsu
Pa did mention you have to have an enormous amount of chakra to use sage mode which evidence points to him having.

and why he didnt mention it to the rest of the team could be, because of this:

Another reason could be that he wants the new generation to take over and
let them be the main stars.

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Not going sage mode didnt make them weaker at that time.
Next to this, maybe Minato was not capable of using the two modes at the same time.
When Yin Kurama was unsealed, nothing was holding Minato back from going
sage mode.

 

[SkylineGTR]

Regardless of the information provided, it is still an ass-pull and no information was properly given to him having SM.

1. If you look at the Toad contract, the only two names that are mentioned there that we can see is Naruto's and Jiraya's. If Minato's is there, then why is his name before Jiraya's and Naruto's? It doesn't make sense that Minato's teacher's name would be after his name when we all know Jiraya is older than him. Unless Jiraya decided to skip a space and then it's highly unlikely.

2. No one on the village, not even Ma, Pa or Gamabunta, mention anything to Naruto about Minato knowing SM. In fact, Kakashi himself states that Jiraya (and many confirm it) was the only person in the village capable of using SM. Now, why would he not have known about Minato using it? Or, why would Minato NEVER use it in a battle? Yes, we can say his Yellow Flash technique is better, but the fact that no one acknowledged that Minato knew or trained in Sage jutsu is hard to believe.

3. Minato gained access to his SM rather quickly in the manga. In fact, he gained it in a way that Pa stated COULD NOT BE DONE! Previously to going into SM, Minato actually throws his Kunia towards Madara's foot and then the next panel he has his SM. Do you know why that can't be? Because SM requires that you remain perfectly still while gathering natural energy. Any type of movement and you disrupt that flow and you either lose the ability to absorb it or you turn into a toad. Pa even mentions this as he states Naruto cannot move an inch. However, Minato turns into his SM right after he throws a Kunai.

4. Kurama has NOTHING to do with going into SM only allowing Ma and Pa to hitch a ride to absorb the natural energy. All Minato had to do was release his BM and start gathering natural energy. That's it. The fact that people are using this as an excuse puzzles me. That would mean that Naruto would never have been able to use SM if we are stating that Kurama didn't allow it. What Kurama didn't allow was 2 toads to merge on his host. Hence, Minato should have been able to turn BM off and start storing natural energy to go into SM to help, but he didn't.

5. Finally, the last picture that you provided proves nothing about SM. Pa states that Naruto has "surpassed" his predecessors, but that could mean ANYTHING. For Jiraya that could mean he mastered SM better then he did or that he was able to take down a Pain a lot quicker then he did. For Minato that could simply mean that he surpassed his father in strength and will. Anything could have been taken up from there, but since we never once were hinted that Minato knew SM, we couldn't infer that. And if we did, there was no confirmation of it.

The fact is that no matter how many ways you try and slice this, it's an ass-pull by Kishi. He failed to mention numerous times and illustrate numerous times that Minato had this ability. And in less then one page and one panel, he was able to perform a technique that still takes Naruto a bit to get into. Furthermore, I like how Kishi states with Pa that any movement hinders someone from absorbing natural energy and entering SM, but Minato was able to throw his special Kunai and then instantly enter "perfect" SM.

You can say what you'd like, but an ass-pull is an ass-pull.


GTR