Rock lee.....

[Jobrjo]

^Sorry didn't know I typed that much lol

 

[Drakengard]

Hmm let me get back to you on the translation part.

No the conversation was about unlocking the gates. Something that is considered extremely hard. So he has the body for the gates, hence why "its not about the hard work".

EDIT: I think that is the VIZ translation, I looked up on MangaEden (uses *********** most of the times), they had the same translation.

It just doesn't seem consistent with his character.

He started out below average in taijutsu

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And it seems that he didn't improve at an impressive rate. It was only after Guy's encouraging speech that he trained to the point of honing his move-set to such levels. I may have missed something but what do you say really makes him a genius? Stamina alone?

I would say Guy understands Rock Lee more than Kakashi, and even Kakashi himself admits that he was out of place in reprimanding Guy for teaching him the Gates. Yeah, Guy also calls him a genius... but..

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He denies it being about taijutsu, genjutsu, or ninjutsu (and obviously the traits linked to that). Apparently, Lee even says that he aims to train multiple times as much as Neji does.

Now I'm not saying that the others didn't train, that's a troll argument. But what are you getting at in the end? Obviously not everybody can get on Lee's level just from his amount of hard work if that's what your aiming at but in comparison to other ninja he does try harder.

 

[Draphsin]

People really need to stop claiming that Rock lee is an average ninja.

? When?

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[KingHashirama]

It just doesn't seem consistent with his character.

He started out below average in taijutsu

Spoiler

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And it seems that he didn't improve at an impressive rate. It was only after Guy's encouraging speech that he trained to the point of honing his move-set to such levels. I may have missed something but what do you say really makes him a genius? Stamina alone?

I would say Guy understands Rock Lee more than Kakashi, and even Kakashi himself admits that he was out of place in reprimanding Guy for teaching him the Gates. Yeah, Guy also calls him a genius... but..

Spoiler

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He denies it being about taijutsu, genjutsu, or ninjutsu (and obviously the traits linked to that). Apparently, Lee even says that he aims to train multiple times as much as Neji does.

Now I'm not saying that the others didn't train, that's a troll argument. But what are you getting at in the end? Obviously not everybody can get on Lee's level just from his amount of hard work if that's what your aiming at but in comparison to other ninja he does try harder.

Key words guy states are "potential". As I stated no "genius" is born to be OP. In Naruto the term "genius" is most of the times referring to the person's potential and skill.

Also it isn't about knowing Rock Lee personally. As I said, what Kakashi said is not based on Rock Lee's whole life, but the fact he was able to use all 5 gates. Notice that Guy doesn't go against Kakashi's comment.

Kakashi's statement comes after the whole "Genius of hardwork". And also, he was referring to the fact that he couldn't judge Guy on him teaching lee the gates, because guy tells him the story.

Rock Lee had the highest stamina out of the Genin, you believe that has nothing to do with him being born with stamina? Even Sasuke who was born an Uchiha didn't have that.

Naruto also started out with below average with clones.. ended up mastering Kage bunshin. Hardwork simply unlocked his potential.

Gotta wonder if this is in response to my thread :erm: Doesn't matter haha

I don't know if oen could say he was truly born with a naturally physically amazing body. Obviously slightly, but I'd say nothing more than a starting athlete. He was no different from the other acedmy students when it came to taijutsu, see chapter 84.
All I'm saying is that yes, while his body is an excellent candidate for Taijutsu, give the same body to another average ninja and I doubt they're getting 5 gates in 1 year with a pre-pubescent body. The game-changer is Rock Lee's determination.

(Also, while I wholeheardetly agree the others you mentioned worked hard too (in some cases maybe more), being born with a Sharingan/Byagukan doesn't equate to being born a probable high-school athlete. Once again, not minimizing what other such as Madara and Neji did (in fact Neji is one of my faves too), but Rock Lee is clan-less and I'd say what he managed to accomplish is especially amazing for a normal guy with a body that has a bit of normal genetic stamina.

In addition, Rock Lee trained all day/night, as hard as he could- so much so he could run in his sleep and fight unconscious (one reason Drunken Fist is so dangerous). I'd say he ranks among others who worked hard to get strong, dare I say above most(/all) in his determination to improve.

Your thread was based on "guy". But some of the posts in your thread inspired me to put this and address this.

Naruto a born uzumaki and son of the Hokage was a mere average genin (before he started training). Just like how Rock lee was below average (before he started training). The same determination that Naruto/Neji/Sasuke/Kiba/Tenten and many others have?

He might be clan-less but he isn't "family-less". We don't know of his family background. He might turn out to be a distant senju, who knows.

If you want to excell in Taijutsu that much, you would have to train for that long. Hence I stated he has the body for taijutsu. Training simply unlocks and makes use of someone's potential.

 

[paratise]

Selective reading at its finest, guess these have not happened:

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People have negative and positive capabilities. Lee's negative side was plain heavier since he has No way of doing ninjutsu and genjutsu, taijutsu was below average and the only Technique he could accomplish to get certain levels was self sacrifical and physically painful.

Rock Lee isn't even on their level when it comes to "hardwork".

and this is plain bs. Only you can claim such thing over 2 panels Hashirama and Madara punching each other and Nagato being said to learning ninja techniques while manga blatantly states that Lee works hard in utmost levels and He was even training when he was hospitalized.

 

[-Sky-]

Rock Lee is easily the hardest worker in the manga .

 

[China IL]

Rock Lee isn't even on their level when it comes to "hardwork".

Your getting a little carried away you know. He was bullied just as much as Naruto and used that as fuel to punch holes in trees,do hundreds of sit/pushups (if he messed one, he started over), and more body bruising workouts. Not to mention his best friends always talked down to him, saying how his hard work will never pay off because Neji was a genuise. He was also not suppose to ever be a ninja again, but he worked hard and got out of his hispital be to fight a Jounin level ninja. His story is hard work!

 

[KingHashirama]

Selective reading at its finest, guess these have not happened:

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People have negative and positive capabilities. Lee's negative side was plain heavier since he has No way of doing ninjutsu and genjutsu, taijutsu was below average and the only Technique he could accomplish to get certain levels was self sacrifical and physically painful.

and this is plain bs. Only you can claim such thing over 2 panels Hashirama and Madara punching each other and Nagato being said to learning ninja techniques while manga blatantly states that Lee works hard in utmost levels and He was even training when he was hospitalized.

Creating techniques for a KKG that you never heard of.... having to fight against adults contantly, having the pressure of being killed and attacked anytime and getting stronger physically and mentally.. yea i'm proud to say Rock lee isn't even on their level.. None of the current generation ninja are..

You provide manga scans that happened before Kakashi's scans.. which countered those manga scans, and made rock lee into a genius, without counting the hardwork. .

Guy himself said lee is a genius with potential (just like all other geniuses)....

Your getting a little carried away you know. He was bullied just as much as Naruto and used that as fuel to punch holes in trees,do hundreds of sit/pushups (if he messed one, he started over), and more body bruising workouts. Not to mention his best friends always talked down to him, saying how his hard work will never pay off because Neji was a genuise. He was also not suppose to ever be a ninja again, but he worked hard and got out of his hispital be to fight a Jounin level ninja. His story is hard work!

@bold I believe you are the one getting carried away there.

He worked hard physically nice. He got bullied by kids nice. But he isn't an orphan now is he. Naruto's situation was 10 times worst than Rock Lee's.

His bestfriend who? Neji started to praise Lee... so yea.

He had to do rehab..

I believe you think i'm saying Rock lee didn't work hard.. that isn't my point. My point is he is a genius, him training hard only unlocked his pontential. He is the same Neji/Naruto/Sasuke/Sakura and so on. He was born with potential.

 

[Touken]

Good lord.

Gai said he's 'A genius of hard work', not 'A genius of potential'. That doesn't make any sense anyway.

Lee was born with absolutely no potential while all the top tier characters were, including Hashirama/Madara.

 

[KingHashirama]

Good lord.

Gai said he's 'A genius of hard work', not 'A genius of potential'. That doesn't make any sense anyway.

Lee was born with absolutely no potential while all the top tier characters were, including Hashirama/Madara.

Reread, he states Lee is a genius with potential (no one said "of Potential") , and then he states because he is a genius of hardwork.

However, upon knowing that Lee can go up to 5 gates, Kakashi said it wasn't about the hardwork, the kid is a freaking genius.

 

[Touken]

However, upon knowing that Lee can go up to 5 gates, Kakashi said it wasn't about the hardwork, the kid is a freaking genius.

Because no teenager except from Lee could open up to 5 Gates. He was completely surprised and he didn't have the slightest idea of how much Lee trained.

Kishi's established that Lee's the hardest working character in Naruto.

 

[Jobrjo]

Key words guy states are "potential". As I stated no "genius" is born to be OP. In Naruto the term "genius" is most of the times referring to the person's potential and skill.

Also it isn't about knowing Rock Lee personally. As I said, what Kakashi said is not based on Rock Lee's whole life, but the fact he was able to use all 5 gates. Notice that Guy doesn't go against Kakashi's comment.

Kakashi's statement comes after the whole "Genius of hardwork". And also, he was referring to the fact that he couldn't judge Guy on him teaching lee the gates, because guy tells him the story.

Rock Lee had the highest stamina out of the Genin, you believe that has nothing to do with him being born with stamina? Even Sasuke who was born an Uchiha didn't have that.

Naruto also started out with below average with clones.. ended up mastering Kage bunshin. Hardwork simply unlocked his potential.

Your thread was based on "guy". But some of the posts in your thread inspired me to put this and address this.

Naruto a born uzumaki and son of the Hokage was a mere average genin (before he started training). Just like how Rock lee was below average (before he started training). The same determination that Naruto/Neji/Sasuke/Kiba/Tenten and many others have?

He might be clan-less but he isn't "family-less". We don't know of his family background. He might turn out to be a distant senju, who knows.

If you want to excell in Taijutsu that much, you would have to train for that long. Hence I stated he has the body for taijutsu. Training simply unlocks and makes use of someone's potential.

A) Umm.. no lol... Look @ my Signature's thread again. It is certainly about Rock Lee not Might Guy.

B) I'll respond to your 2nd paragraph using your examples:
-Naruto was born Uzamaki, Jinchuriki, and backed by plot.
-Neji was born a talented Hyuuga.
-Sauske was born an Uchiha.
-Kiba was born an Inuzuka.
-Tenten was born on the same level as Lee (maybe even worse since she's a female).
I'm not saying the above people didn't work hard. Heck, Naruto has the most perks and he worked very hard. However, they were all born ahead of lee, and by the time of the Chunin Exams he surpassed all of them vastly according to logic. In addition, his rate of development was far ahead of theirs.
All of them trainer hard. However, Rock Lee trained harder and therefore developed faster and stronger even without perks. However it seems after the exams Kishi continued everyone else's development and stunted his, when he grows the fastest.

C) Not responding to the distant Senju thing... dude doesn't have ninjutsu. He's normal human with a lot of determination and some chakra to apply it with.

D) He went form below average to 5 gates in 1 year. That's no average training.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

How did this come back to hashirama wank?

 

[Huzaifa]

Your getting a little carried away you know. He was bullied just as much as Naruto and used that as fuel to punch holes in trees,do hundreds of sit/pushups (if he messed one, he started over), and more body bruising workouts. Not to mention his best friends always talked down to him, saying how his hard work will never pay off because Neji was a genuise. He was also not suppose to ever be a ninja again, but he worked hard and got out of his hispital be to fight a Jounin level ninja. His story is hard work!

Naruto trained harder ahem those mass shadow clown technique makers ahem. Rock lee is a hard worker but he did work of one person.

 

[Ovan]

Kid Bruce Lee coming up in the ranks. Just you wait.

 

[-Spoiler-]

Naruto trained harder ahem those mass shadow clown technique makers ahem. Rock lee is a hard worker but he did work of one person.

those mass shadow clone require stamina to maintain else the will disperse easily, and as soon as they disperse the original feels all the exhaustion the clones been through so yea he did train hard.

 

[KingHashirama]

How did this come back to hashirama wank?

When you posted about Hashirama wank that isn't in the thread.

A) Umm.. no lol... Look @ my Signature's thread again. It is certainly about Rock Lee not Might Guy.

B) I'll respond to your 2nd paragraph using your examples:
-Naruto was born Uzamaki, Jinchuriki, and backed by plot.
-Neji was born a talented Hyuuga.
-Sauske was born an Uchiha.
-Kiba was born an Inuzuka.
-Tenten was born on the same level as Lee (maybe even worse since she's a female).
I'm not saying the above people didn't work hard. Heck, Naruto has the most perks and he worked very hard. However, they were all born ahead of lee, and by the time of the Chunin Exams he surpassed all of them vastly according to logic. In addition, his rate of development was far ahead of theirs.
All of them trainer hard. However, Rock Lee trained harder and therefore developed faster and stronger even without perks. However it seems after the exams Kishi continued everyone else's development and stunted his, when he grows the fastest.

C) Not responding to the distant Senju thing... dude doesn't have ninjutsu. He's normal human with a lot of determination and some chakra to apply it with.

D) He went form below average to 5 gates in 1 year. That's no average training.

A) i just read the title ;x.

B) Now i'll use your posts to show you the flaws in your argument:
- Every character backed by plot. Don't even get me started on Kurama.
- Just like according to Guy lee has "potential". Neji had potential. No where is it stated he was born talented.
- Sasuke worked his ass of.
- Inzuka.. yea and apparently hes one of the weakest. So by this I assume Rock Lee was born into a higher family.
- Trying to make their clans an excuse will only mess up your argument more and more.
- Ten Ten is the same as Sakura, no difference. Unlike Lee she wasn't said to have potential. =]

Was Naruto called a genius? Wasn't it Naruto who was about to get killed? Is it Lee who came close to death so many times? Look mate, you are trying to make excuses to justify that Lee wasn't any special. When the manga clearly calls him a Genius , even without his hardwork. Meaning he was born special. EVERY SPECIAL NINJA NEEDED TRAINING.

C) No one is born with ninjutsu. You must train to attain it. No one besides the Rikudou has been born with chakra. You have to learn how to mold it. Rock Lee simply sucks in molding it.


D) I mean hell who cares about Guy stating that Lee has potential right? Or hell Kakashi saying Lee being able to go into gates isn't about hardwork , but because he is a genius. But who c ares about that right?

 

[Jobrjo]

When you posted about Hashirama wank that isn't in the thread.

A) i just read the title ;x.

B) Now i'll use your posts to show you the flaws in your argument:
- Every character backed by plot. Don't even get me started on Kurama.
- Just like according to Guy lee has "potential". Neji had potential. No where is it stated he was born talented.
- Sasuke worked his ass of.
- Inzuka.. yea and apparently hes one of the weakest. So by this I assume Rock Lee was born into a higher family.
- Trying to make their clans an excuse will only mess up your argument more and more.
- Ten Ten is the same as Sakura, no difference. Unlike Lee she wasn't said to have potential. =]

Was Naruto called a genius? Wasn't it Naruto who was about to get killed? Is it Lee who came close to death so many times? Look mate, you are trying to make excuses to justify that Lee wasn't any special. When the manga clearly calls him a Genius , even without his hardwork. Meaning he was born special. EVERY SPECIAL NINJA NEEDED TRAINING.

C) No one is born with ninjutsu. You must train to attain it. No one besides the Rikudou has been born with chakra. You have to learn how to mold it. Rock Lee simply sucks in molding it.


D) I mean hell who cares about Guy stating that Lee has potential right? Or hell Kakashi saying Lee being able to go into gates isn't about hardwork , but because he is a genius. But who c ares about that right?

B) Kisimoto, frankly though with all due respect, isn't the best writer when it comes to showing characters at their reasonable strength. Characters are CONSTANTLY held back and even often boosted py plot when in a logical scenario X wouldn't have happened. For example, realistically all 5 kage should be dead right now. There is no reason whatsoever Madara should've given all that mercy, fight them so hard, swear to kill them, and then leave them halfway alive. There are many examples of this throughout the story.
Rock Lee was said to be "a genius of hard work". That is no born potential, that is his power of will. Born potential isn't a bad thing, it's just extra amazing that he had NONE AT ALL!
And I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. It's like this: imagine there's a race. Some people get to start further ahead, others further behind. Yet if they are fast enough, those further behind can still win. Rock Lee is like those further behind. However he was so good, so determined, he managed to surpass many who had giant headstarts (ocular kkg, etc).

C) I suppose that's another discussion altogether, for Rock Lee CERTAINLY is excellent at molding chakra. His problem is that he can't get it external to his body. But he can run on tree and water perfectly fine (and quickly at that). Advanced levels of taijutsu require advanced chakra. And the Gates ever so certainly require good chakra molding. Whether the ability to use ninjutsu is something some people can't do or if it's something he just sucks at at the end of the day depends on Kishimoto's opinion.

D) He is a genuis of hard work. His life & his sensei demand and say such.



btw thanks for this having a nice intelligent discussion with me ^_^ many members sadly cannot do such.

 

[KingHashirama]

B) Kisimoto, frankly though with all due respect, isn't the best writer when it comes to showing characters at their reasonable strength. Characters are CONSTANTLY held back and even often boosted py plot when in a logical scenario X wouldn't have happened. For example, realistically all 5 kage should be dead right now. There is no reason whatsoever Madara should've given all that mercy, fight them so hard, swear to kill them, and then leave them halfway alive. There are many examples of this throughout the story.
Rock Lee was said to be "a genius of hard work". That is no born potential, that is his power of will. Born potential isn't a bad thing, it's just extra amazing that he had NONE AT ALL!
And I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. It's like this: imagine there's a race. Some people get to start further ahead, others further behind. Yet if they are fast enough, those further behind can still win. Rock Lee is like those further behind. However he was so good, so determined, he managed to surpass many who had giant headstarts (ocular kkg, etc).

C) I suppose that's another discussion altogether, for Rock Lee CERTAINLY is excellent at molding chakra. His problem is that he can't get it external to his body. But he can run on tree and water perfectly fine (and quickly at that). Advanced levels of taijutsu require advanced chakra. And the Gates ever so certainly require good chakra molding. Whether the ability to use ninjutsu is something some people can't do or if it's something he just sucks at at the end of the day depends on Kishimoto's opinion.

D) He is a genuis of hard work. His life & his sensei demand and say such.



btw thanks for this having a nice intelligent discussion with me ^_^ many members sadly cannot do such.

Why should the Kage be dead, if they had the best medical ninja of all time amongst them. He show cased Tsunade's prowess as a medical ninja there.



Ok mate lets make couple of things clear:

- ALL GENIUSES require hardwork. Even Rikudou sennin/Hashirama.

- Everyone has their limits, whether want to admit it or not. Rock Lee only able to progress that much with his training because he had the body and the potential for it.

- You need potential to go high. If you don't have potential then you aren't gonna go high. Hardwork requires pontential. If I have the potential to go 4.4 on the 40 yd dash, that means that is my limit, but I need to work hard to get there. I am blessed with the body that has the much potential.

- All ninja who are strong are due to their genetics and working hard. Just like in real life people who are the best athletes are there because they worked hard and due to natural genetics. A normal ninja wouldn't even be able to do half of the stuff Rock Lee does.. rofl. The guy was born with mad stamina yo.

- Rock lee was able to get "further" ahead because he had potential. He had the Genetic potential. I don't know why you aren't getting that.

- Neji was training by himself, before Lee started training. So of course Neji going is to be called a genius since hes the strongest one. But no one looks at the fact, while Lee and Tenten weren't training. Neji was working his ass off to get the byakugan skills down.


Let me simply show you the scans in CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER:

Lee called a genius of hardwork with potential:

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^^^^^^^ all that was about his training.

Now lets look at when Kakashi specifically says "Its NOT about the hardwork, that kid.. he's a genius.."

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He has the ability at a young age to perform a High-jounin level technique.. you think thats not special? lol. Or do you believe that Kakashi, a genius himself who worked his ass off to get there, wouldn't notice the difference between a genius and a regular person?

On top of that the above scans should already show that "genius of only hardwork" was countered by the statement from Kakashi.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Dude I read the op. I saw the wank. U might as well just call this thread Hashimama Senju instead of Rock Lee