Draphsin
Kage in the Making 👑
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 14,296
- Reaction score
- 1,200
@GLUU:
No, he doesn't.
Lol Do you even know how mokuton works? The mokuryuu doesn't change size, it will only be large enough to effectively hold down a bijuu & nothing more. Once the bijuu reverts to a smaller V2 form then the dragon will be much too large to hold it down, thus letting the jin slip away [which it can easily do before the dragon readjusts to the size difference].
Not to mention we've already seen that different sizes of dragons are used depending on the size of it's target which cements the fact that a larger mokuryuu used for bijuu would be ineffective in restraining a smaller opponent like a V2. [
Flying is flying, plus it has more than enough to be portrayed as a good flyer in any case [being alive for over hundreds of years & using it's wings as a primary mode of transportation]. Chomei doesn't need feats to prove that flying >>> any mokuton anyways, so my point still stands.
Feats of madara's PS jumping high & fast enough to do such a thing?
Also feats of madara using mokuryuu & PS simultaneously, otherwise stop with the fanfic, its either PS or his mokuton, he isn't using both.
& Finally, since madara can only produce one dragon that then leaves four other bijuu + obito unattended to ambush madara at any given time.
BM naruto had enough power to match the combined tbbs of all 5 bijuu which was the only way he could actually grab hold of the rods, does madara have the combined power of these 5 bijuu? Not by feats he doesn't.
Lastly to add, obito didn't intervene in that fight once, at any point during that battle obito could've warped behind naruto as he was focusing on the bijuu. So with all of that said, the fact that you think these two situations are comparable is ridiculous. PS =/= BM.
Then we have obito who can drop in at any time at all while he's focusing on the bijuu he's trying to kill.
& PS isn't going to be getting into an arm wrestling match with the bijuu so physical strength is irrelevant, PS will be swinging it's swords, & so the bijuu will have to worry about sword slashes, not whether or not they'll get overpowered.
Irrelevant, the shockwave/dust cloud produced by the explosion still created the opening that he needed.
& Don't be daft, that all happened in a few moments after the explosion took place. It's already been established that naruto's BM avatar is much faster than the stationary bijuu & so it was possible for naruto to take advantage of the opening before the bijuu had a chance to properly react, hardly the same case for madara.
So all in all we have a PS that can't match the power to create a proper opening, & a PS that lacks the speed to take advantage of such a situation should it arise. So let me reiterate my previous point, madara removing the rods is an impossible scenario.
I also need feats of either madara's mokuryuu restraining 5 bijuu, or madara creating 5 dragons while using PS, otherwise madara gets obliterated by the other bijuu sitting idly by.
- The amount of tbbs is irrelevant, madara can easily be hit with 10+ bijuudamas if 5 bijuu are firing at him in quick succession.
- The blades in the damas are also irrelevant, those don't add anything to the d/c, they only prevent mokuton hands from catching them.
- Finally the bijuu who was firing the damas is also irrelevant, prove that the multi tbbs used by 100% kurama are any stronger than a 50% kurama, or gyuki. & Before you say "more chakra" sorry but that doesn't work since more chakra doesn't automatically mean the bombs are any stronger. Are naruto's rasengans any stronger than jiraiya's or minato's despite having much larger base chakra reserves than them? No, he has to add more chakra to make it stronger, a standard rasengan isn't any more powerful between users & since tbbs are created using the same method then the same thing applies unless proven otherwise.
Lol What? So because a V1 cloak > fire that now means mokuton > fire? What kind of logic is this? In what universe does a V1 cloak = mokuton?
We've already seen what a rasengan
Was madara's katon juubi sized? Was madara trying to destroy the forest? These are questions you need to answer before trying to act smug. & Then we have
You gotta do better than that.
Even the multi tbb is a minimum of 4 tbbs at once, already double what PS can do.
As I said, the only mid diff win here goes to obito.
@KG:
And where's the evidence that madara can attack 5 bijuu before they have the chance to move? What tells you that this madara has some godly striking speed which makes every single bijuu unable to do anything when faced with it?
As for my evidence [which all you had to do was ask for], we have isobu
Then there's the entire fight with blind madara, where matatabi showed us her speed [moving quickly from
As a final piece of evidence we have gyuki
Okay first of all sasuke & naruto were able to keep up with juubito's movements but not his striking speed which was leagues ahead of theirs. Plus sasuke was tracking juubito with his sharingan precog so that point kind of backfires. & Just because madara's susanoo is superior in terms of d/c & larger in terms of quantity doesn't mean it has superior speed either, you have to prove that it does.
The bijuu have decent speed feats, decent enough to dodge a simple sword slash, especially from a fair distance & with the help of obito's sharingan.
& Lastly the logic here is flawed, madara's PS slash was
Misunderstood me again, never said a significant amount of madara's entire chakra reserves, I was referring to a significant amount of chakra from his PS [when I say significant I mean enough to create a decent opening in the armor].
Lol indeed, nothing suggests such a thing. Kurama only used standard "multi" tbbs to attack, you need to prove that 100% kurama's multi tbbs are any more powerful than yang kurama's because simply having more chakra isn't a valid enough reason. You're forgetting an important fact, tbbs are created through the same method as the rasengan, & naruto is a chakra tank yet his rasengans aren't larger/more powerful than any standard rasengan from jiraiya/minato. This tells us that simply having more chakra doesn't automatically mean your rasengans/tbbs become more powerful, too add power you have to add more chakra via charging which 100% didn't do against SS.
The only thing that more chakra means is that the bijuu with more can charge a larger tbb, nothing says that the basic tbbs gain a boost in power.
I have no idea why you think the valley explosion is larger than the bijuu's explosion based on those scans. First of all the combined dama was shot towards the air & thus much further away from the ground, while the valley explosions were much closer to the ground & I would even go so far as to say that half of the blast was directly responsible for the crater it made, whereas the entire combined dama exploded in the air. That already makes for a questionable comparison.
Next You need to prove that the mountains near the valley are the same height as the mountains where naruto was, otherwise using them as a basis for your comparison becomes even more questionable. & Before you say that the mountains are the same height then first let me show you the comparison between the actual craters [something that isn't a variable like mountain ranges can be].
Clearly from the two scans you can see that the valley crater is much smaller, seeing as a regular ninja can easily shunshin across it in little time. Then we have the combined dama crater which would be able to comfortably fit multiple juubis inside, & it didn't even explode on the ground like the valley damas did [hence why it's much more shallow].
The mountains & terrain don't make for valid comparisons unless it's certain that they're similar in size, the craters that each made shows us exactly how large each explosion was & based on that I say the combined dama was larger.
Thing is that even a juubi jin version of madara couldn't do it with his base striking speed. Unless you're telling me that edo madara's PS is faster than JJ madara then he's not touching him at all during this fight.
So you're telling me that madara will be able to create a mokuton clone & then sprout mokuton branches immediately after obito starts to warp him? Honestly, how fast do you think this guy is? Obito warped in & out of a jinton cube before it could activate, edo madara could
No, he doesn't.
Lol Do you even know how mokuton works? The mokuryuu doesn't change size, it will only be large enough to effectively hold down a bijuu & nothing more. Once the bijuu reverts to a smaller V2 form then the dragon will be much too large to hold it down, thus letting the jin slip away [which it can easily do before the dragon readjusts to the size difference].
Not to mention we've already seen that different sizes of dragons are used depending on the size of it's target which cements the fact that a larger mokuryuu used for bijuu would be ineffective in restraining a smaller opponent like a V2. [
You must be registered for see links
/
You must be registered for see links
/
You must be registered for see links
]Flying is flying, plus it has more than enough to be portrayed as a good flyer in any case [being alive for over hundreds of years & using it's wings as a primary mode of transportation]. Chomei doesn't need feats to prove that flying >>> any mokuton anyways, so my point still stands.
Feats of madara's PS jumping high & fast enough to do such a thing?
Also feats of madara using mokuryuu & PS simultaneously, otherwise stop with the fanfic, its either PS or his mokuton, he isn't using both.
& Finally, since madara can only produce one dragon that then leaves four other bijuu + obito unattended to ambush madara at any given time.
Reread the manga, first of all that was still a perfect jin & with speed comparable to minato's to boot, does PS have any speed feats to compare? Then there's the fact that naruto needed bee's help otherwise he would've eventually been overwhelmed [
You must be registered for see links
].BM naruto had enough power to match the combined tbbs of all 5 bijuu which was the only way he could actually grab hold of the rods, does madara have the combined power of these 5 bijuu? Not by feats he doesn't.
Lastly to add, obito didn't intervene in that fight once, at any point during that battle obito could've warped behind naruto as he was focusing on the bijuu. So with all of that said, the fact that you think these two situations are comparable is ridiculous. PS =/= BM.
Yet gyuki survived being blasted by a bijuudama, but that's irrelevant anyways. The offensive capabilities of a single PS is sh*t compared to a bijuu's. I don't see the point in mentioning the bijuu's durability when one of them can't even be hit by PS anyways, & the others have methods of avoiding it's easy-to-read attacks.
Absolutely has nothing to do with durability, just because the bijuu got knocked off their feet doesn't mean that they can't take hard hits. The gedo mazou got tripped & fell over due to bee/gai, does that mean the GM has sh*t durability despite tanking a mountain level boulder? Flawed logic.
Assuming all his slashes hit every single bijuu before they start bombarding him with tbbs, thus preventing him from using any more moves since he'll be getting overwhelmed. & This is also assuming a single PS slash can even kill a bijuu because you haven't proven that it would [getting knocked down by a limbo clone is not proof].
Then we have obito who can drop in at any time at all while he's focusing on the bijuu he's trying to kill.
So because SM madara can push the off-guard bijuu back that means they have sh*t durability? Lol Now I don't suggest you read the manga, but rather I suggest you take a few lessons in utilizing basic logic because the way you're using it now doesn't make a lick of sense.
& PS isn't going to be getting into an arm wrestling match with the bijuu so physical strength is irrelevant, PS will be swinging it's swords, & so the bijuu will have to worry about sword slashes, not whether or not they'll get overpowered.
Irrelevant, the shockwave/dust cloud produced by the explosion still created the opening that he needed.
Again irrelevant, thought this point was about madara removing the rods?
For a third time irrelevant, this only happened due to the opening caused by naruto matching the bijuu's power.
& Don't be daft, that all happened in a few moments after the explosion took place. It's already been established that naruto's BM avatar is much faster than the stationary bijuu & so it was possible for naruto to take advantage of the opening before the bijuu had a chance to properly react, hardly the same case for madara.
So all in all we have a PS that can't match the power to create a proper opening, & a PS that lacks the speed to take advantage of such a situation should it arise. So let me reiterate my previous point, madara removing the rods is an impossible scenario.
Again that's effortlessly evaded through the bijuu reverting to V2 forms & escaping before mokuryu can adjust to the change in size.
I also need feats of either madara's mokuryuu restraining 5 bijuu, or madara creating 5 dragons while using PS, otherwise madara gets obliterated by the other bijuu sitting idly by.
No they don't, not when you haven't given me a single decent argument explaining how it's not impossible for PS to accomplish such a thing. & Fyi using naruto's BM avatar is not a valid comparison.
But they're not, you still failed to give me an effective way of dealing with them.
What else? Their tails?
Not happening. SS was punching kurama in the face yet it was still able to create multiple tbbs during the attack, & don't say that PS protected him because PS doesn't protect the dama itself so it still should've exploded before it got fired. No tbb is getting interrupted, not when madara only has slashes as an offense & bijuu can still fire damas while moving.
- The amount of tbbs is irrelevant, madara can easily be hit with 10+ bijuudamas if 5 bijuu are firing at him in quick succession.
- The blades in the damas are also irrelevant, those don't add anything to the d/c, they only prevent mokuton hands from catching them.
- Finally the bijuu who was firing the damas is also irrelevant, prove that the multi tbbs used by 100% kurama are any stronger than a 50% kurama, or gyuki. & Before you say "more chakra" sorry but that doesn't work since more chakra doesn't automatically mean the bombs are any stronger. Are naruto's rasengans any stronger than jiraiya's or minato's despite having much larger base chakra reserves than them? No, he has to add more chakra to make it stronger, a standard rasengan isn't any more powerful between users & since tbbs are created using the same method then the same thing applies unless proven otherwise.
Then PS gets murked from behind thanks to the other 4 bijuu on the ground around him, & then obito warps behind madara & ends the match. Not to mention chomei can gain as much distance as he wants, making him the hardest bijuu to hit since he'll have the most time to react.
Addressed above
Addressed above.
Your point? The juubi sized katon sh*ts on that forest with ease, unless you're telling me that naruto can make enough clones to equal the juubi in size & in which case I need feats.
Lol What? So because a V1 cloak > fire that now means mokuton > fire? What kind of logic is this? In what universe does a V1 cloak = mokuton?
We've already seen what a rasengan
You must be registered for see links
, therefore it's safe to say that a lager rasengan will destroy more trees [hence naruto's attack destroying the forest]. Nothing tells me that this mokuton is any less vulnerable than a regular tree & in which case the fire turns it to charcoal like any other wood.Was madara's katon juubi sized? Was madara trying to destroy the forest? These are questions you need to answer before trying to act smug. & Then we have
You must be registered for see links
which you unfortunately seemed to overlook, the forest was still burning even before onoki destroyed it, thus proving that katon does in fact have an effect on it.You gotta do better than that.
Dunno what feats you're referring to but they're definitely not feats from this manga.
Considering your logic suggests that a V1 cloak = mokuton, I'm not the least bit surprised you would think so. Lol
Feats? In any case has PS ever produced more than two shockwaves in succession? No, therefore even if those slashes are faster [which you have no way to prove] there will still be more than one bijuu on the field that's being completely overlooked.
Even the multi tbb is a minimum of 4 tbbs at once, already double what PS can do.
& Reverting to V2 mode & escaping is faster than the mokuryu having to adjust it's position, so the bijuu ends up escaping while the other 4 bijuu are busy spamming madara with tbbs, & since madara can't use PS + mokuryuu then that means he gets destroyed while fooling around with his dragon.
Lol He doesn't even need to worry about that during this fight. If madara decides to use clones then obito spams them with tbbs thus destroying them all. The only thing that can stand up to the tbbs being fired is PS & only the original madara can use PS, so as soon as he uses it obito knows which one to go after.
Lol Not even a juubi jin madara could touch obito before he could become intangible, a much slower [even slower than his alive counterpart] edo madara clone that loses power as more spawn isn't touching obito in a million years.
Bijuu aren't going down. & I love how think obito's just going to sit in the pollen for the entirety of his kamui limit. All he has to do is warp away & his limit will reset itself. FTW countering kamui is the biggest misconception regarding the jutsu on this forum.
As I said, the only mid diff win here goes to obito.
@KG:
And where's the evidence that madara can attack 5 bijuu before they have the chance to move? What tells you that this madara has some godly striking speed which makes every single bijuu unable to do anything when faced with it?
As for my evidence [which all you had to do was ask for], we have isobu
You must be registered for see links
dodging a ground slam from BM naruto as well as saiken managing to grab BM naruto's arm before he could sense it. Then we have kokuo
You must be registered for see links
being able to generate enough momentum to send gyuki flying from a point blank attack.Then there's the entire fight with blind madara, where matatabi showed us her speed [moving quickly from
You must be registered for see links
to
You must be registered for see links
], then the rest of the bijuu showed us theirs as well [
You must be registered for see links
]. & Lastly in that fight we see the bijuu reach madara &
You must be registered for see links
before he could escape naruto's attack [matatabi & saiken are shown to be a
You must be registered for see links
away as well].As a final piece of evidence we have gyuki
You must be registered for see links
, & using gyuki is still valid since he is a bijuu & assuming that any bijuu with legs moves/runs/jumps slower than him is just illogical. If you can prove that gyuki can move faster than the rest of the bijuu then I'll drop this example.No the reason why you think this is flawed is because you simply misunderstood the point. I never once said that precog is the sole reason for being able to dodge, it's merely something to make it that much easier. Same thing with keeping his distance, these are merely things that make dodging more & more plausible. Hell even with pt 1 sasuke, with enough distance he'll also have enough time to dodge a PS slash [granted the distance would have to be huge, but it's still possible].
Okay first of all sasuke & naruto were able to keep up with juubito's movements but not his striking speed which was leagues ahead of theirs. Plus sasuke was tracking juubito with his sharingan precog so that point kind of backfires. & Just because madara's susanoo is superior in terms of d/c & larger in terms of quantity doesn't mean it has superior speed either, you have to prove that it does.
The bijuu have decent speed feats, decent enough to dodge a simple sword slash, especially from a fair distance & with the help of obito's sharingan.
& Lastly the logic here is flawed, madara's PS slash was
You must be registered for see links
by a
You must be registered for see links
, does that mean a base hashi can force juubito the same way that sasuke did? The situations are different, you can't compare sasuke's speed regarding the juubito fight to madara's since the guy who reacted to him couldn't even react to the slower juubito. & If you're going to mention that hashi was an edo at the time & thus slower then the logic would still be flawed since the sasuke who kept up with juubito was alive + had precog, madara is an edo [significantly slower than his living counterpart] & lacks precog, so comparing them makes no sense either way you look at it.Misunderstood me again, never said a significant amount of madara's entire chakra reserves, I was referring to a significant amount of chakra from his PS [when I say significant I mean enough to create a decent opening in the armor].
That's easily circumvented via intangibility.
It rips enough chakra from susanoo in order to allow a tbb explosion to reach him. This is if you don't believe the continuous spamming of bijuudamas won't eventually break his susanoo, otherwise it's unnecessary.
Lol indeed, nothing suggests such a thing. Kurama only used standard "multi" tbbs to attack, you need to prove that 100% kurama's multi tbbs are any more powerful than yang kurama's because simply having more chakra isn't a valid enough reason. You're forgetting an important fact, tbbs are created through the same method as the rasengan, & naruto is a chakra tank yet his rasengans aren't larger/more powerful than any standard rasengan from jiraiya/minato. This tells us that simply having more chakra doesn't automatically mean your rasengans/tbbs become more powerful, too add power you have to add more chakra via charging which 100% didn't do against SS.
The only thing that more chakra means is that the bijuu with more can charge a larger tbb, nothing says that the basic tbbs gain a boost in power.
I have no idea why you think the valley explosion is larger than the bijuu's explosion based on those scans. First of all the combined dama was shot towards the air & thus much further away from the ground, while the valley explosions were much closer to the ground & I would even go so far as to say that half of the blast was directly responsible for the crater it made, whereas the entire combined dama exploded in the air. That already makes for a questionable comparison.
Next You need to prove that the mountains near the valley are the same height as the mountains where naruto was, otherwise using them as a basis for your comparison becomes even more questionable. & Before you say that the mountains are the same height then first let me show you the comparison between the actual craters [something that isn't a variable like mountain ranges can be].
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links
Clearly from the two scans you can see that the valley crater is much smaller, seeing as a regular ninja can easily shunshin across it in little time. Then we have the combined dama crater which would be able to comfortably fit multiple juubis inside, & it didn't even explode on the ground like the valley damas did [hence why it's much more shallow].
The mountains & terrain don't make for valid comparisons unless it's certain that they're similar in size, the craters that each made shows us exactly how large each explosion was & based on that I say the combined dama was larger.
Thing is that even a juubi jin version of madara couldn't do it with his base striking speed. Unless you're telling me that edo madara's PS is faster than JJ madara then he's not touching him at all during this fight.
So you're telling me that madara will be able to create a mokuton clone & then sprout mokuton branches immediately after obito starts to warp him? Honestly, how fast do you think this guy is? Obito warped in & out of a jinton cube before it could activate, edo madara could
You must be registered for see links
to a jinton that he wasn't anticipating. How on earth is madara going to do what you suggest before being taken out by kamui when he could barely react to a slower jutsu? That logic doesn't make sense.Again, jinton had enough speed to rip edo madara in half before he could evade it, kamui is much faster than that & thus madara won't have time to react, not properly anyways.
