Rikudou Sennin Is Definitely An Uzumaki

[shelke]

It does not necessarily mean that mercenary work entails an immoral act would be committed
since in war and battles, justified killing is a morally acceptable, take for example Minato and
all the shinobis he killed during the Third Great Shinobi World War, killing with malicious intent
and killing from obligation are completely two different things based on moral grounds.

No it's not. It's just your own assumption. There is no such thing as nobility in blood-shed nor does it equate with the ideals of peace. Was it somehow a compulsion on them to work as hires? Didn't think so.

I was not referring to inbreeding in conjunction with your assumption that the Uzumakis and Senjus intermarried because I do not accept your premise. Rather I was referring to inbreeding within the Uzumaki Clan itself. So it is a presumptive and categorical error in your part.

Neither do I, hence the disagreement. I just don't agree with your viewpoint.

Fill-in the distant relative by Kishimoto, no sir, it is you who assumed too much, not Mr. Kishimoto, you have assumed the superfluous idea and justified your proposition by giving it the veneer of validation that your line of thinking is the same as Kishimoto's which is false. It is superfluous because you introduce the hypothetical fourth element which is "the other clan" rather than the three elements that are already present within the canon of the manga: The Senjus, Uchihas and the Uzumakis, and if you find my remarks as conceited I can assure you that it was not my intention to appear as such, I am merely stating my proposition which is antithetic to yours, if you perceive that as arrogance then I am very sorry.

How are distant relatives formed? They are formed through cross-breeding with other groups. This is common anthropological factor. Can we at least agree on this? The other clan need not be delineated by Kishimoto as it holds no relevance with the story arc he has built up. Come on, this guy didn't even bother to explain Hyuuga lineage and simply considered it BS after the first arc. He isn't all the intricate with his clan knowledge. Probably doesn't even know what he is doing at this point.

Good to hear that. I must have misunderstood then.

You are putting words in my mouth, I said clans existed during the Sage's Era I did not say the present Uchiha or Senju Clans existed back then, what I am pointing out is that clans did exists during the Sage's time, and yes, it is relevant to my argument because I am pointing out that the Uzumakis probably existed during the Sage's time along with other clans who were at war.

Dude, you are getting a little confused. You said I made a statement that clans never existed at the time of the Sage, when I was merely taking Senju and Uchiha into consideration. I just corrected you in this regard, that is all.

 

[Chuggs]

You called Kishi? Did he really say there's no mixing of DNA in an eye awakened from the body possessing both dna's? Do please tell me what Kishi said, can I have his number?


And also I did not claim that the successive Uzumakis were all of direct patrilineal descent from the Sage but rather they are related from the sage through common and not direct ancestry, so there is no contradiction if Rikudou's direct descendants are able to awaken it while his clan's other descendants couldn't

You said that Nagato must have Uchiha + Senju DNA because he's an Uzumaki and they are Rikudou's clan.
But only the So6P's direct descendants are able to awaken the Rinnegan and the rest of his clan couldn't, this means the rest of his clan lacked something the So6P didn't, it would be safe to assume they did not have Senju and Uchiha DNA.

The only way for the Uzumaki to have Uchiha + Senju DNA is if they are too direct descendants of the sage by a 3rd son that had both the body and eyes of the sage. But the manga pretty much says this is not the case, so no.

As for the DNA in the Rinnegan, lets take a look at Madara's eyes.
He's able to go back and forth from EMS to Rinnegan.
I very much doubt the genetic makeup of his eyes changes from Uchiha to Uchiha+Senju everytime he does that.
I believe its more like this, the Rinnegan being the sharinga's ultimate form that can only be achieved when the eyes are powered by Senju chakra.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

No it's not. It's just your own assumption. There is no such thing as nobility in blood-shed nor does it equate with the ideals of peace. Was it somehow a compulsion on them to work as hires? Didn't think so.

It is my moral stance, that justified killing is morally acceptable, it your stance that killing no matter what the reasons are is immoral.

Neither do I, hence the disagreement. I just don't agree with your viewpoint.

Very well, so we differ on the views regarding this matter, let us leave it as that.

How are distant relatives formed? They are formed through cross-breeding with other groups. This is common anthropological factor. Can we at least agree on this? The other clan need not be delineated by Kishimoto as it holds no relevance with the story arc he has built up. Come on, this guy didn't even bother to explain Hyuuga lineage and simply considered it BS after the first arc. He isn't all the intricate with his clan knowledge. Probably doesn't even know what he is doing at this point.

it is your assumption that Kishimoto does know what he is doing, however to answer your point, distant relatives stem from common ancestry, take for example the Capetian dynasty of France and the Bourbons and Anjou French Royal Families of the middle ages, A direct descendant of Hugh Capet would claim either the Bourbons or the Anjous as distant relatives because they are the branch families of the original bloodline of Hugh Capet, the diluted blood ancestry of the Bourbons or Anjous from the original Capetian bloodline makes them distant relatives, the same thing can be applied to the Uzumakis and Senjus, the Uzumakis can claim the diluted bloodline branch of the Senjus as distant relatives for the very reason of the dilution of that blood from the original ancestry.

Dude, you are getting a little confused. You said I made a statement that clans never existed at the time of the Sage, when I was merely taking Senju and Uchiha into consideration. I just corrected you in this regard, that is all.

I did not, and do not accept the premise that the Uchihas or Senju clans existed at the time of the Sage, since they are two branching bloodlines from the original bloodline of the Sage himself. What this original bloodline was is the moot point of discussion. Which, in my view, was the Uzumakis

 

[Honord Sage]

Re: Rikudou and Uzumaki: Sealing Jutsus

^this how could there be so few answers like this.

The sage is of both uchihas and senju blood line matter fact he is the creator of both blood lines the uzamaki come from the senju line.

Also he created ninjutsu so there were no sealing techs before him the sage is his own blood line he couldn't be an uzamaki because they can about long after his death

Children come from their Father ,Sons do not give birth to their Father. Uzumaki are the Father of the Uchiha and the Senju,its logical.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

You said that Nagato must have Uchiha + Senju DNA because he's an Uzumaki and they are Rikudou's clan.
But only the So6P's direct descendants are able to awaken the Rinnegan and the rest of his clan couldn't, this means the rest of his clan lacked something the So6P didn't, it would be safe to assume they did not have Senju and Uchiha DNA.

The only way for the Uzumaki to have Uchiha + Senju DNA is if they are too direct descendants of the sage by a 3rd son that had both the body and eyes of the sage. But the manga pretty much says this is not the case, so no.

As for the DNA in the Rinnegan, lets take a look at Madara's eyes.
He's able to go back and forth from EMS to Rinnegan.
I very much doubt the genetic makeup of his eyes changes from Uchiha to Uchiha+Senju everytime he does that.
I believe its more like this, the Rinnegan being the sharinga's ultimate form that can only be achieved when the eyes are powered by Senju chakra.

They lack the direct descent needed to awaken the Rinnegan, since by the laws of genetic inheritance, only those of direct relations to the Sage can awaken it, as demonstrated by Madara and his injection of Hashirama's cells in himself, by virtue of common ancestry, Nagato shares the similarities with the Sage which is not exclusive with himself (eg Rinnegan) like vitality and the vast amount of chakra reserves which is present in all the Uzumakis.

You are under the misguided principle that Senju and Uchiha DNA are mutually exclusive to one another, however that is not so, the Elder and Younger Son shares the genetic composition of their Lord Father, what they differ from are the dominant genetic traits each acquired from their Father, the Uchiha Eyes and the Senjus Bodies, the awakening of the Rinnegan requires not the DNA per se which is probably present in all the Uzumakis, but by the mixture of BOTH Dominant genetic traits within the Senju and Uchiha that they acquired from Rikudou Sennin, which are the eyes and the body that came from the Sage through direct descent.

It does not necessarily mean that the EMS eye that Madara displays is still exclusively pure Uchiha DNA, it is rather more plausible that his switching from the Rinnegan to the EMS is merely a manifestation of the innate powers of the EMS that was present even before he awakened the Rinnegan, it does not necessarily entail that the EMS eye itself is pure Uchiha that switches to Uchiha+Senju DNA upon switching to the Rinnegan, that is pure unproven conjecture in your part.

 

[shelke]

It is my moral stance, that justified killing is morally acceptable, it your stance that killing no matter what the reasons are is immoral.

What is justified killing in your opinion, exactly? Self-defense? I support it. But becoming hires for another nation to kill another by taking reward? Sorry, this is hardly moral or justified.

it is your assumption that Kishimoto does know what he is doing, however to answer your point, distant relatives stem from common ancestry, take for example the Capetian dynasty of France and the Bourbons and Anjou French Royal Families of the middle ages, A direct descendant of Hugh Capter would claim either the Bourbons or the Anjous as distant relatives because they are the branch families of the original bloodline of Hugh Capet, the diluted blood ancestry of the Bourbons or Anjous from the original Capetian bloodline makes them distant relatives, the same thing can be applied to the Uzumakis and Senjus, the Uzumakis can claim the diluted bloodline branch of the Senjus as distant relatives for the very reason that of the dilution of that blood from the original ancestry.

I don't remember passing off my assumptions as facts. Also, the common ancestor is the sage. I haven't showed any disagreement on this point. Take for example the Brahmans in India now. New anthropological data suggests that they're relatives of one of the 12 dis-banded Jew tribes in Africa led by Moses. The actual inhabitants of the the land were Dravids. Now the current Brahmans are quite different in features that the original ones due to cross-breeding. The term 'Relative' doesn't hold the same blood-line as the original branch, as in the case I pointed out. Now the current Brahmans are distant relatives of the original branch, as they still carry the original Genes mixed with the local gene-pool. Same scenario can be applied to Uzmaki clan as well. But, it's a matter of opinions.

I did not, and do not accept the premise that the Uchihas or Senju clans existed at the time of the Sage, since I they are two branching bloodlines from the original bloodline of the Sage himself. What this original bloodline was is the moot point of discussion. Which, in my view, was the Uzumakis

Okay. I don't agree. Fair?

 

[Honord Sage]

The SO6P Philosophy was show love and give a second chance to your' enemies when it seem right to do so,Fight when theirs no alternative and defeat your enemies Hard things to do. When is love and peace to be given? When to use power to bring peace? The Sons divided the concept and only use haft the formula, but like all things haft a formula only gives you haft a cure. Wisdom is doing the right thing at the right time,something the Senju and the Uchiha forgot.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

What is justified killing in your opinion, exactly? Self-defense? I support it. But becoming hires for another nation to kill another by taking reward? Sorry, this is hardly moral or justified.

villages take requests for missions right? and they get compensation in return
the same thing can be said of mercenaries, they do their job, they get paid, and they get to eat.

I don't remember passing off my assumptions as facts. Also, the common ancestor is the sage. I haven't showed any disagreement on this point. Take for example the Brahmans in India now. New anthropological data suggests that they're relatives of one of the 12 dis-banded Jew tribes in Africa led by Moses. The actual inhabitants of the the land were Dravids. Now the current Brahmans are quite different in features that the original ones due to cross-breeding. The term 'Relative' doesn't hold the same blood-line as the original branch, as in the case I pointed out. Now the current Brahmans are distant relatives of the original branch, as they still carry the original Genes mixed with the local gene-pool. Same scenario can be applied to Uzmaki clan as well. But, it's a matter of opinions.

Yes, I do not agree with your proposition, but I respect your stance on the matter, my stance however remains firm that the Uzumakis, like the Uchihas or the Hyuugas, and like the Royal Inbreeding of European Families is a more plausible scenario given that clans have a sense of exclusivity like royal dynasties that is most prominently demonstrated through selective inbreeding.

Okay. I don't agree. Fair?

Fair enough

 

[shelke]

villages take requests for missions right? and they get compensation in return
the same thing can be said of mercenaries, they do their job, they get paid, and they get to eat.

How is that any different from assassins? As long as someone ponies up the doe, they put forth their services. They obviously also support their families. Doesn't make it morally right.

Yes, I do not agree with your proposition, but I respect your stance on the matter, my stance however remains firm that the Uzumakis, like the Uchihas or the Hyuugas, and like the Royal Inbreeding of European Families is a more plausible scenario given that clans have a sense of exclusivity like royal dynasties that is most prominently demonstrated through selective inbreeding.

Maybe Kishimoto will pull something completely different. Who knows?

 

[Steaktacular]

Great theory, loved reading that. Have to admit that I never looked at things that way, it does seem possible.

Kudos to your theory and effort in making this.

 

[hamer34]

IMO he is all the clans

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

How is that any different from assassins? As long as someone ponies up the doe, they put forth their services. They obviously also support their families. Doesn't make it morally right.

Well we can argue about morality, but we will be swimming into very very deep waters since this will lead to a very long discussion regarding subjective and absolute morality, altruism, necessary evil and so forth so let's just leave it like it is ok?

 

[shelke]

Well we can argue about morality, but we will be swimming into very very deep waters since this will lead to a very long discussion regarding subjective and absolute morality, altruism, necessary evil and so forth so let's just leave it like it is ok?

I am so tried and sleepy. So yeah, I completely agree.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

I am so tried and sleepy. So yeah, I completely agree.

Indeed

 

[Suan19]

Pretty good man. Your theory is really interesting.

 

[SIR HERDERP PRESIDERP SDO]

Pretty good man. Your theory is really interesting.

Ty

 

[sanninuto]

Re: Rikudou and Uzumaki: Sealing Jutsus

well, well, well, since i joint the base you've prove to be very very awesome in some important matters
coool.... keep it up

 

[sanninuto]

Pretty good man. Your theory is really interesting.

well, yeah really interesting

 

[YellowFlash1]

excellent thread!

I agree, i've always believed that the sage himself was an Ukumaki.