Rikoudo-rinnegan and his relation with sharingan

[peaceful]

I have posted this in other forums too. So please do not tell me that you have seen this theory in other forums too.

Hello people. Before we start I want to point out that this theory is highly based on lore, manga facts, speculation from my side, personal interpretation of the manga . Also, I would like to say that the theory will most likely include some mini theories that will connect the dots and make the whole theory comprehensive and easily understood. If you want to reply, I ask you kindly to read the whole text before doing so. There is a chance your questions will be answered throughout the text.





Hinduism important to read

Spoiler

According to Hinduism, three supernatural entities exist which are known as the Trimurti. They are Brahma the creator, Visnu the maintainer or preserver, and Śiva the destroyer or transformer. The Trimurti (literally indicating three forms or trinity), is the representation of the three projections of the Supreme Reality, each with a specific cosmic function. These manifestations are that of Brahma (serving the cosmic function of creation), Vishnu (serving the cosmic function of renewal and preservation), and Shiva (serving the cosmic function of dissolution or destruction that precedes re-creation) ? the three popular Hindu gods. Our daily existence reflects these three cosmic functions as birth, life and death. To go on, it is widely accepted that each of them represent represent earth, water and fire respectively. The earth, or Brahma, is seen as the originator of all life and hence is regarded as the Creator. Water is the sustainer of life and hence is the Preserver and is represented as Vishnu. Fire destroys life and hence is the Destroyer and is represented as Shiva.



Some more Hinduism. At the beginning of the process of creation, Brahma, created eleven Prajapatis, who are believed to be the fathers of the human race. He is also said to have created the seven great sages or the Saptarishi to help him create the universe. However since all these sons of his were born out of his mind rather than body, they are called Manas Putras or mind-sons or spirits. Brahma's vehicle is a divine Swan. This divine bird is bestowed with a virtue called Neera-Ksheera Viveka or the ability to separate milk and water from a mixture of the two. The significance of this is that justice should be dispensed to all creatures, however entwined it might be in a situation. Also, this virtue indicates that one should learn to separate the good from the evil and then accept that which is valuable and discard that which is worthless or evil.


Shiva is a major Hindu god, and one aspect of Trimurti. In Tamil, Shiva literally means "the supreme one". Tamil "Siva" means Red. Both Shiva and Rudra are viewed as the same personality in a number of Hindu traditions. Rudra, the god of the roaring storm, is usually portrayed in accordance with the element he represents as a fierce, destructive deity and he is described as the "Father of the Maruts", a group of storm gods. Some usual attributes of him are: Crescent Moon: Shiva bears on his head the crescent of the moon. Serpents: Shiva is often shown garlanded with a snake. Finally, Śiva is a god of ambiguity and paradox, whose attributes include opposing themes.


I do not want to say anything about Vishnu because he is not referred in my theory at all. Only keep in mind that he was called Vishnu the maintainer or preserver.

RIKOUDO in the ancient years

So, back in the past when anarchy predominated in the world a man , who could be characterized providential, came and put the foundations of the ninja system by giving birth to ninjutsu itself, this man was known as Rikoudo sennin, the sage of the six paths and one can say that he was the ?father? of ninja world.
There is no denying, that it was like he was chosen by ?somebody? from heaven to fulfil a goal unknown to many. In order, to succeed his goal, he was provided with a tool from heaven, the Rinnegan. One of the many powerful abilities of these eyes is that it allows the user to control six bodies, that each one of them share the rinnegan. Not only that, but they make the current user (Nagato) think that he is a god. So inspired by Hinduism, I believe Brahma the creator, chose a man who could fulfil his goal and this man was rikoudo sennin. He made him his ?son? because he saw the necessary potential in him. Not only he selected him but he also provided him with a tool from heaven ,with amazing powers, that gave him the ability to create even moon. As I wrote previously, according to Hinduism Brahma was the creator of the seven sages, and if we at the same time see the naruto world we will notice the parallel between these two worlds. Both in Hinduism and naruto, Brahma created the concept of the seven sages in order to complete his task. (You may wonder and say that in naruto world there are only six sages but according to Hinduism there are seven so what is the connection between these two? I have to say that although there are six sages-paths they are all controlled by one user of the rinnegan the ?chosen? one making him the seventh sage.) Also according to Hinduism, god Brahma had a swan as his vehicle. This swan had the ability to separate good from evil and deliver judgement. The connection between the swan and Konan is obvious, so I believe I do not have to elaborate more on this. Finally here is a picture of Brahma according to Hinduism

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and here we can notice that pain is standing on a statue with three faces

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. I can assume that this statue is either made as a worship for Brahma or either for the holly trinity. One thing is for sure, that this is no coincidence.

Rikoudo and the questions about him

Anyway, we all know that for some unknown reason rikoudo sennin did not have any descendants to carry on his will. There is no known clan who has the rinnegan, in fact it is confirmed in the manga that such clan never existed. But why is that? Rikoudo knew that he was going to die someday why didn?t he have children? Is it that he did not like any woman enough to have kids with her? Is it that he was not liked by anyone? Or maybe something else, like he knew that he was never going to die? Or maybe he had children but for some unknown reason they did not have rinnegan?
Judging from the current user and his arrogance of power, his abilities, the fact that he thinks he is never going to die (I am talking about nagato) I am pretty sure Rikoudo himself knew he was immortal and so I am convinced that what has happened is what I have underlined. But still, rikoudo is confirmed to be dead. Why and how did he die, taking into account that he was immortal? Who killed him? And why is that even if he is dead and without any known descendants to form a clan someone else has rinnegan? And finally have his children died? So I write this theory to explain the answers to all these questions and generally the connection between sharingan and rinnegan. So if you want to know the truth, keep reading.


Rikoudo and his life

To begin with, it is common knowledge now that rikoudo received rinnegan and put order in the world plus the fact that he was the first ninja. But how is that after rikoudo, ninjas started being produced? If we take into account that he was the first ninja and had no children how is that possible? I assume (one more time inspired from Hinduism) that the other god from the wholly trinity, Vishnu the maintainer, gave to a woman another tool with divine properties, the Byakugan. And having the role of the maintainer that woman identified rikoudo with her eyes and rikoudo her with his eyes and so they had two children both of them having byakugan (and by this way the the ninja world maintained). And that I how ninjas started existing. But the story now begins. The two sons of rikoudo competed with each other trying to prove their worth to their father in order for him to select one of them to give them the power of rinnegan. Well if you wonder, how is it possible that rikoudo give rinnegan to one of his son. It is the same way how it is passed from one person to another until know ( see how nagato obtained rinnegan) and how the aspect of the seven sages is created. For example if we take a closer look at this picture

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and you will see two candles placed behind the sage. Why did Kishimoto include those random candles in the image? Allow me to quote something interesting from Wikipedia under rebirth:

For example, a flame is transferred from one candle to another, or a fire spreads from one field to another.

The beginning of everything

So, the process is easy. When Rikoudo finally decided and chose one of his sons, the one who was not selected was enraged and tried to kill his brother but he did not succeed and he was banished. Roaming in the world, he finally found a woman and had children with her. But one night when there wa crescent moon, Shiva the antagonist of brahma approached him and offered power. He told him that if he gave to him his soul he would give him as an exchange eyes stronger than byakugan, powerful enough to cope with rinnegan. Not only that but he also told him that being the master of fire himself, he would enable him to use fire proficiently. So the young man corrupted by his will for power gave his soul to the evil god ,and it was then when the powerful tengu Sojobo took his soul. His byakugan eyes evolved and became red ,the colour of Shiva, and were named Sharingan. It would be nice if you read (if you haven?t already) this theory on sojobo:

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. You will notice that there are hints of sojobo?s being everywhere . Some more lore here. Tengu is the same being as garasu, if you notice this page you will see birds similar to garasu:

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Many characteristics of the god Shiva can be found in the uchiha clan. For example the crescent moon, check the manga (itachi)
Snakes? check the manga (sasuke)
ambiguity and paradox, whose attributes include opposing themes?check the manga (madara)
(It is interesting to note here that each of these characteristics are connected to a different uchiha member,for example snakes with sasuke, moon with itachi and madara with ambiguity and paradox)

The battle

One of the many attributes of sojobo is his shapeshifting ability. The young man with sharingan decided that it was time to get revenge and kill his father , rikoudo sennin. Having confidence in himself knowing that he could rival with his new powers his father, he changed his form concealed his eyes and returned to his family lying that he admitted that what he has done in the past was wrong. His brother was extremely happy that his long lost brother was for once again with him but sadly enough he did not know that the true reason he had come back was to kill their father.(note here that sojobo, being a bird and not being noticed by his brother who had byakugan is why no huyga has complete 360 vision) After some time, the young man with sharingan decided to set in motion his plan and so challenge his father.



When they finally battled, rikoudo witnessed the true power of sharingan .Unable to cope with the unparalleled powers of his son, rikoudo was forced to summon eight tailed beasts to assist him in the battle. Now his son was the one who was in a very bad situation. After realising that there would be no way he could win even with his sharingan ,he asked Shiva for more power.
Shiva replied to him telepathetically, and told him that if he wanted more power he had to sacrifice the purity of all his descendants forever-he had to accept that he and all his descendants will be cursed forever. The young man blinded by revenge accepted. Then the god Shiva, being the god of fire, summoned a tailed beast even more powerful than the other eight, he summoned the fire fox kuybi. The man with the sharingan managed to use kuybi but for the cost of being cursed. Nevertheless the battle was for one more time even. Then, Rikoudo sennin understanding that he could not defeat his son used an extremely powerful teqnique in order to seal his son forever. He used Chibaku Tensei. The same teqnique nagato used to capture kuybi. But the power of the jutsu Rikoudo used was much more greater and bigger than nagato?s. It was in that fight, with this jutsu , that he created moon. But rikoudo being exhausted from the whole fight he died after using this jutsu. His son unable to do anything was sealed forever in the moon, while kuybi was set free appearing when human malice gathered. Sadly enough this happened before rikoudo transfered rinnegan to his other son. But his wife using a forbidden jutsu and at the cost of her life made it so that the rinnegan will transfer to somebody each time the user dies, still with less power.

So I believe that is what has happened in the past. I made this first part of theory based on the few things we know. Still they are not random things I just imagined. Now let?s go to the current time.

Part2

Wars for one more time started. There were clans fighting clans. But two were the most powerful and renown. The senju and the uchiha clan (uchiha clan consists of the descendants of the son of rikoudo who was sealed) During one of these wars a young boy named madara was born. He was specially talented and his chakra was one of the best even among the uchihas. As he grew older and more powerful he became the leader of the uchiha clan. As the leader of the uchiha clan he fought with Shodai who was the leader of the senju clan. As madara fought with shodai his name and fame became more and more well known. But because he and his clan became more famous they made new enemies constantly. So his brother offered his eyes, in order for madara to become more powerful. But in the end both clans were exhausted from the endless fighting . So when the senju offered a truce everyone except madara willingly agreed. Madara was angered and wondered for what has his brother died. Nevertheless being the leader of his clan he had to listen to their needs and so he accepted. Still the diferencies were not settled. When the time to choose a hokage came there was a dispute between madara and shodai. Everyone chose shodai , but madara knowing that the uchiha clan started losing its supremacy ?link- 399 08.Chose to oppose Hashirma. However there was no one who would follow him and as a result Madara felt he was betrayed and he left the village.
What was madara doing during this period?


Madara during his absence
Now has anyone wondered what has he done during this period of time? I am sure madara being the former leader of the uchiha clan knew the secret and the relation between kuybi and sharingan. He searched for the legendary fox in order to gain power but he could not find it. Consumed by revenge he was in a desperate situation and he did not know what to do. It was then when his ancient ancestor who was sealed in the moon appeared before him and told him everything about the uchiha past, the rinnegan ,rikoudo and kuybi. Madara who was now angry because he was betrayed, asked from his ancestor to give him strength to fight his rival shodai. He replied to madara that he could not give him all his powers yet because he was sealed in the moon but he could give him enough strength to be undefeatable and immortal. So sojobo who was still in the first uchiha?s soul transferred into madara and gave him mystical powers like teleportation and immortality. He also gave him kuybi to control. Lastly he told madara that if he wanted all his powers he had take the eyes of another uchiha member who would have much power and potential enough to unseal him from the moon. Madara fascinated with his new powers agreed to everything and so he started his plans. First of all he had to fight with hashirama and make it seem he loses so he would have all the time to prepare and execute his long term plan.

 

[peaceful]

Final piece of my theory

Spoiler

This is not my post, but it explains my theory very well. Credits to sh.

How and why did Madara lose, given that he engaged Hashirama many a time prior to the battle at the VotE?

If anything, it wasn't Madara, the immortal, who was getting weaker. Madara was never weak, and still isn't; he took out half of Uchiha relatively recently, possesses the pinnacle of space-time techiques, threatened Team Hawk, and defeated a bijuu easily. If Itachi was stronger, there is no reason Itachi wouldn't have killed him; in fact it would have been in Itachi's interest to have Madara dead for certain reasons.

However, Shodai died shortly after that battle. Whether or not Shodai was sick prior to the fight, or killed by wounds from that battle is uncertain. However, it is noteworthy that Shodai distributed the bijuus relatively early on, probably before the battle with Madara (as he died soon after). We weren't shown any other bijuus at the VotE either. Thus, it would have been Shodai with a fewer number of bijuus, and Madara would have remained as powerful as he still had the Fox.

So, if the equation in the era of wars prior to Konoha read like this:

Shodai + Bijuus = Madara + Fox

and Madara is immortal, then theoretically, Shodai could not have won at the VotE. In other words, Madara made it appear so to deceive everyone. This would make perfect sense if:

2) There was no point in killing Shodai at the VotE.

Hashirama was a hero, to both Senju and Uchiha, as well as the Fire country at large.

His own clansmen favored Shodai, and called Madara power-hungry, selfish and fratricidal . Thus, even if Madara killed Shodai, he would have been seen as a treacherous rebel. He would not have been crowned Hokage and embraced by the village, but instead hunted by the entire nation of Fire as the terrorist who killed their great hero Hashirama. Therefore, it would not have been in Madara's interest to even win this battle. So why did he fight there? Madara faked his death. It is explained below.

3) To accomplish his plan in the long run, Madara needed to disappear by fabricating his own death.

Madara says he felt betrayed by his clan prior to the VotE battle. He made peace with Senju, but notice he makes mention of hatred and irreconcilability as he is compelled to sign the treaty. He then states he was betrayed and he left the village. Ironically, I think this is where Madara's betrayal started. This is where he decided that he was going to have his revenge, and he started planning. In order to defeat a mighty village like Konoha, which had exceptional ninjas and only the strongest clans as constituents as well as the mysterious and famous 'will of fire', Madara knew it would require more than just a lone man on a rampage. He would have to concoct a long-term master plan. As an immortal, Madara always had time on his side.

I believe that when Madara left the village for the first time, he had worked out the beginnings of his plan. At this point, he may have secured a position or gained some allies in the Mist or he could have founded Akatsuki. In any case, the foundation was layed. However, Madara needed to vanish from history in order to further his plans; if Konoha knew he was alive and scheming, ANBU teams and cooperation with other villages (Shodai made peace with other nations and gave away bijuus) would hinder Madara's plans. It would certainly help keep suspicious ninjas like Jiraiya off his trail. Therefore, Madara needed to fake his own death, and he did so with great success at the VotE. What happened was exactly what Madara wanted; he was forgotten by everyone, even 'history'..

Note that Madara appears to be stabbed through the chest with a sword, much like our friend Tobi, and on both occasions, he played dead. I wonder whether it did him any harm at all....I don't think Madara left behind a corpse though, and thus Jiraiya's suspicions had a basis.
Part 2: Madara and Uchiha

I don't believe Madara's intention was to destroy Konoha when he unleashed the Fox. It was all done to frame Uchiha. If Madara was actually serious about destroying Konoha, he should have attacked himself with the Fox (he is one of the strongest of all time and can control the Fox and utilize it more effectively), had the Mist village invade as well, used Akatsuki ninjas (if they were around at the time), and used Danzou's ANBU as well possibly. Furthermore, sending a lone Fox to a village brimming with S-class ninja would not have been wise; we have already seen various Akatsuki defeat bijuus and powerful jinchurikis. The yellow flash had quite a reputation, and so did the 3rd hokage. Therefore, I believe Madara actually did it to frame Uchiha rather than to destroy the village.

Regardless of whether Madara is Danzou or just an ally, the two worked together to frame Uchiha and justify a massacre order. The spoiler below explains how exactly Madara used the Fox and eventually exterminated the Uchiha clan.
Madara and the Uchiha Brothers

The timing of the Fox attack is extremely significant. One may think that at any time after Shodai's death, Madara could have unleashed the Fox.

But why then?

Because of Itachi and Sasuke; a potential EMS pair. As soon as Sasuke is born, and the prodigy Itachi has a brother, Madara unleashes the Fox and acts on his plan to get revenge on Uchiha, almost as if he was waiting for a Sasuke/Itachi pair to appear. Note that if Madara had actually destroyed the village using the aforementioned means, Sasuke and Itachi might actually have been killed. This explains why exactly Madara had not destroyed Konoha by that time.

One may ask how rare is EMS potential? Well, it's about as rare as the Rinnegan; the Rinnegan has appeared twice in history, and the EMS has only appeared once, but the potential has appeared twice. The reason for this is that an EMS requires two extremely talented people to be born at around the same time and in the same clan: Uchiha.

Madara and Itachi

The Plan:

So, the Fox attack and the massacre could have all been part of Madara's plan to produce an EMS. Actually, Madara may have engineered the massacre and actually anticipated 'Itachi's plan for Sasuke' ahead of time, and even have initiated the massacre plan just for that reason. Madara had been keeping an eye on Itachi: he was well aware of Itachi's peaceful nature, and this made Itachi's actions predictable; if given a choice, Itachi would chose to save more people i.e. Konoha over Uchiha. Madara probably got him into ANBU through Danzou in the first place as well.

Madara also saw to it that Sasuke was strong enough (possibly through Sai, Orochimaru, and Deidara) to achieve EMS. He then made sure that Itachi's plan went through successully by stalling Naruto and gang, and immediately recovering Sasuke after the battle and awakening Sasuke's MS.

Itachi and Akatsuki:

Madara may even have kept an eye on Itachi through Kisame. Kisame may have murdered the Feudal Lords on Madara's (Mizukage) orders (possibly political reasons), and joined Akatsuki on his orders (directly or indirectly) too; Madara also paired him with Itachi, to keep a check on Itachi. For example, he knew Itachi was very ill and taking medicine, and obviously since Madara himself (or anyone else) wasn't anywhere near Itachi (nor is there evidence Itachi wrote to Madara to inform him about his own health), Kisame is most likely his source.

Madara had it planned all along. He told Itachi about Akatsuki, and that he founded it. This compelled Itachi to go there, because Itachi would have wanted to keep a check on Madara's (and Akatsuki's) activities. There were only three possible ways to do this:

- Go to the Mist (assuming Madara is Mizukage, but I won't get into that), but it wasn't an option
- Remain in Konoha to watch over Danzou (assuming Danzou = Madara), but again not an option
- Go to Akatsuki, and observe the activities of Madara's personal selection of criminals; the only viable option. Murdering your clan adds greatly to your Akatsuki application form, and it helps when that's precisely where Madara wants you to be.

If this is true, and 'Itachi's plan' is really a smaller part of Madara's big plan, then Zetsu's remark makes a lot of sense; Madara has waited a long time......many decades to get an EMS and wipe out his clan. Madara immediately stresses that Sasuke is the most important part, possibly because of his EMS potential. I won't go into speculation about whether Madara has uses for Sasuke without EMS, or why exactly he wants to create another EMS, but the point is that for one reason or another, Madara has a vested interest in Sasuke. Sasuke is extremely important to Madara, and has been for a long time.

Conclusion

Madara staged his own death, and escaped Konoha. He devised a long-term plan, possibly to destroy Konoha and/or rule the country or even more, and Sasuke is an important part of Madara's plan. The Sasuke element has influenced many of Madara's actions.

If most of this theory is true, then Madara has indeed managed to deceive pretty much everyone, including the readers so far....

So shatteredhope’s theory explains very well the plan and goals of madara uchiha. He did all these for another ems user with potential. He prepared everything for sasuke ,in order to sacrifice him and gain the whole power of his ancestor and not a portion of it.

SUMMARY

Spoiler

A brief summary for those who have not read it: In the past rikoudo sennin was provided with tools from heaven.He then had two son. He had to choose one to carry on his will. When he chose one the other became nagry and left. During his leave he also obtained mystical power. He then fought with his father rikoudo sennin. The 9 beasts were summoned during this fight. Rikoudo unable to defeat his son who had sharingan sealed him in the moon dieing in the process. Back to the future now. Madara a new but powerful uchiha member was born. He then became the leader of his clan. An alliance between senju clan and uchiha clan was decided. Madara has doubts about this truce. Then there is a dispute for the seat of hokage. Everyone selects shodai. Madara decides for the good of his clan to fight shodai. Noone supports him. He leaves (like his ancestor) and roams the world. His ancestor appears before him and transfers a part of his soul giving him unbelievable powers and tells him that if he wants to take all his powers he has to unseal him from the moon. To do so he has to find another ems user who is evil. Madara accepts and starts his long term plan.

This is one of my big three theories. The other two are still in progress. I am gong to post them after June. However this is as important as the others.

 

[Emperor]

Very nice, but I'd just like to say, Brahma and Shiva are not rivals.

How do I know ?
I'm a Hindu. >.<

 

[Alucard]

Very nice, but I'd just like to say, Brahma and Shiva are not rivals.

How do I know ?
I'm a Hindu. >.<

PWND xD

But good theory, i found this in onemanga forums, didnt know it was you

 

[peaceful]

Very nice, but I'd just like to say, Brahma and Shiva are not rivals.

How do I know ?
I'm a Hindu. >.<

Hm i made this theory long ago. Anyway, i cannot disaree with you on this matter being an ex-christian orthodox having no clue on lore,religion etc. of other countries. However Kishi can twist the role of these gods and make them antagonists, of some sort at least.

PWND xD

But good theory, i found this in onemanga forums, didnt know it was you

Yes it was me. Do you have an account?

 

[Preta]

Well even though it's probably wrong, it was a great theory and I enjoyed reading it kind of like a story. However where is this irrefutable evidence of the Sage's death? I've never seen Kishi waste a character and I think we'll see the Sage of the six paths later on in the manga, as one so powerful would obviously be immortal.

 

[Senju Kutoki]

wow0_0nice theory

 

[peaceful]

Well even though it's probably wrong, it was a great theory and I enjoyed reading it kind of like a story. However where is this irrefutable evidence of the Sage's death? I've never seen Kishi waste a character and I think we'll see the Sage of the six paths later on in the manga, as one so powerful would obviously be immortal.

"It's probably wrong" Lets do some philosophy with this statement:
There are only two ways to "face" a theory trying to solve and find the truth. The first one is the easy way: either with the simple asseveration that there is only one moral measure(our measure) and every deviation from it means abnormalilty , either from the dissapointment from choosing the other way, or admission that our evaluations to the true and correct are simple illusions or expectations and every judgement of ours is as arbitary as the original idea.

The second method is difficult,exactly because it demands more thinking and modesty as well. The are only few people who see this way. With the one attribute, man traps himself in relativism. With the other one, he has the eagerness and "flavour" of total.

Prisoner as he is to space,time, human has "surrendered" to relativism. This, however, does not mean that man cannot choose the total. In the case of human, relativism is not the contrast, but one part of total, like ephemeron is not denial, but a part of the eternal.

If we look at our problem with this in mind, if we think of total not as excess but as synopsis and inclusion, completion of the relative valuations that our spirit,moral,ethic tries to do, then we will give a solution to our problem that may seem strange and not orthodox, it will however have depth and greatness. Every theory has truth inside, however not the whole truth. Every theory describes a way of thinking from a certain view point. It is so relative with the true and correct. However it is not arbitary, because it describes a way of thinking that might be plausible. By this way of thinking, theories trying to find the total are relative beliefs. Other theory comes closer to the truth and another one comes less close to the truth. Every theory however has some truth inside and that is why they persuade people. In the area and time they become arbitary they downgrade themslves, because they want for themselves(author of the theories) our complete trust. When part serves to be as part of the total then it is true. When part appears and tries to be the total then it becomes a lie.

 

[roflcopter]

I enjoyed reading your theory however your explanation of WAYS of facing a theory is just confusing.

 

[Alucard]

Yes it was me. Do you have an account?

No, no, i was searching and found that on onemanga forums

 

[Dean-Winchester]

so in short r u ssainy
Rinnegan is the 1st do jutsu & probally byakugan or sharigan came from dat

cuz ridoku was the messaih who turned its religon to ninjutsu

 

[ringleader]

1 of the best rinnegan madara sasuke itachi theories i've ever read

 

[peaceful]

Thank you everyone!!!

Some pages to take into consideration that support my theory:

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Here we see that Madara who has ems, talks about more powerful sharingan. How can ems be upgraded? Proof that he is talking about his ancestor power.

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. After Madara leaves, Pain like being sad makes the sky rain. Why would he do such a useless action after hearing the monologue by Madara? Remembering the old days?

 

[Preta]

"It's probably wrong" Lets do some philosophy with this statement:
There are only two ways to "face" a theory trying to solve and find the truth. The first one is the easy way: either with the simple asseveration that there is only one moral measure(our measure) and every deviation from it means abnormalilty , either from the dissapointment from choosing the other way, or admission that our evaluations to the true and correct are simple illusions or expectations and every judgement of ours is as arbitary as the original idea.

The second method is difficult,exactly because it demands more thinking and modesty as well. The are only few people who see this way. With the one attribute, man traps himself in relativism. With the other one, he has the eagerness and "flavour" of total.

Prisoner as he is to space,time, human has "surrendered" to relativism. This, however, does not mean that man cannot choose the total. In the case of human, relativism is not the contrast, but one part of total, like ephemeron is not denial, but a part of the eternal.

If we look at our problem with this in mind, if we think of total not as excess but as synopsis and inclusion, completion of the relative valuations that our spirit,moral,ethic tries to do, then we will give a solution to our problem that may seem strange and not orthodox, it will however have depth and greatness. Every theory has truth inside, however not the whole truth. Every theory describes a way of thinking from a certain view point. It is so relative with the true and correct. However it is not arbitary, because it describes a way of thinking that might be plausible. By this way of thinking, theories trying to find the total are relative beliefs. Other theory comes closer to the truth and another one comes less close to the truth. Every theory however has some truth inside and that is why they persuade people. In the area and time they become arbitary they downgrade themslves, because they want for themselves(author of the theories) our complete trust. When part serves to be as part of the total then it is true. When part appears and tries to be the total then it becomes a lie.

Please spare me from your psuedo philosophy. I realize you feel a need to impress people, however, atleast choose a better venue for trying to discuss what you've read about absolute truth and relative truth, as it was completely out of place here. It's nice to see you excited about what you just learned, but there is a time and place to parrot textbooks and a time and place to think for yourself.

"It's probably wrong." Let's do some common sense with this statement. It is probably(note: I said probably to be nice. I apologize.) wrong because you created 3 characters that Kishi has never before even mentioned in his story. I'm sure you are aware that the chances of him approaching it the same way as you are astronomical, right? You're "probably" wrong because you were wrong about the very bases of your "antagonist" theory. You are "probably" wrong because you made up a story of past events which any of us could do. I enjoyed the story but to say there is even a chance that this is the way Kishi will explain it? That's probably absurd, probably egotistical and probably wrong.

I apologize for things like simple logic and common sense. I do realize that students of new age philosphy like to argue in circles and make the simplest things complicated.

 

[Universal Enlightenment]

I have posted this in other forums too. So please do not tell me that you have seen this theory in other forums too.

Hello people. Before we start I want to point out that this theory is highly based on lore, manga facts, speculation from my side, personal interpretation of the manga . Also, I would like to say that the theory will most likely include some mini theories that will connect the dots and make the whole theory comprehensive and easily understood. If you want to reply, I ask you kindly to read the whole text before doing so. There is a chance your questions will be answered throughout the text.





Hinduism important to read

Spoiler

According to Hinduism, three supernatural entities exist which are known as the Trimurti. They are Brahma the creator, Visnu the maintainer or preserver, and Śiva the destroyer or transformer. The Trimurti (literally indicating three forms or trinity), is the representation of the three projections of the Supreme Reality, each with a specific cosmic function. These manifestations are that of Brahma (serving the cosmic function of creation), Vishnu (serving the cosmic function of renewal and preservation), and Shiva (serving the cosmic function of dissolution or destruction that precedes re-creation) ? the three popular Hindu gods. Our daily existence reflects these three cosmic functions as birth, life and death. To go on, it is widely accepted that each of them represent represent earth, water and fire respectively. The earth, or Brahma, is seen as the originator of all life and hence is regarded as the Creator. Water is the sustainer of life and hence is the Preserver and is represented as Vishnu. Fire destroys life and hence is the Destroyer and is represented as Shiva.



Some more Hinduism. At the beginning of the process of creation, Brahma, created eleven Prajapatis, who are believed to be the fathers of the human race. He is also said to have created the seven great sages or the Saptarishi to help him create the universe. However since all these sons of his were born out of his mind rather than body, they are called Manas Putras or mind-sons or spirits. Brahma's vehicle is a divine Swan. This divine bird is bestowed with a virtue called Neera-Ksheera Viveka or the ability to separate milk and water from a mixture of the two. The significance of this is that justice should be dispensed to all creatures, however entwined it might be in a situation. Also, this virtue indicates that one should learn to separate the good from the evil and then accept that which is valuable and discard that which is worthless or evil.


Shiva is a major Hindu god, and one aspect of Trimurti. In Tamil, Shiva literally means "the supreme one". Tamil "Siva" means Red. Both Shiva and Rudra are viewed as the same personality in a number of Hindu traditions. Rudra, the god of the roaring storm, is usually portrayed in accordance with the element he represents as a fierce, destructive deity and he is described as the "Father of the Maruts", a group of storm gods. Some usual attributes of him are: Crescent Moon: Shiva bears on his head the crescent of the moon. Serpents: Shiva is often shown garlanded with a snake. Finally, Śiva is a god of ambiguity and paradox, whose attributes include opposing themes.


I do not want to say anything about Vishnu because he is not referred in my theory at all. Only keep in mind that he was called Vishnu the maintainer or preserver.

RIKOUDO in the ancient years

So, back in the past when anarchy predominated in the world a man , who could be characterized providential, came and put the foundations of the ninja system by giving birth to ninjutsu itself, this man was known as Rikoudo sennin, the sage of the six paths and one can say that he was the ?father? of ninja world.
There is no denying, that it was like he was chosen by ?somebody? from heaven to fulfil a goal unknown to many. In order, to succeed his goal, he was provided with a tool from heaven, the Rinnegan. One of the many powerful abilities of these eyes is that it allows the user to control six bodies, that each one of them share the rinnegan. Not only that, but they make the current user (Nagato) think that he is a god. So inspired by Hinduism, I believe Brahma the creator, chose a man who could fulfil his goal and this man was rikoudo sennin. He made him his ?son? because he saw the necessary potential in him. Not only he selected him but he also provided him with a tool from heaven ,with amazing powers, that gave him the ability to create even moon. As I wrote previously, according to Hinduism Brahma was the creator of the seven sages, and if we at the same time see the naruto world we will notice the parallel between these two worlds. Both in Hinduism and naruto, Brahma created the concept of the seven sages in order to complete his task. (You may wonder and say that in naruto world there are only six sages but according to Hinduism there are seven so what is the connection between these two? I have to say that although there are six sages-paths they are all controlled by one user of the rinnegan the ?chosen? one making him the seventh sage.) Also according to Hinduism, god Brahma had a swan as his vehicle. This swan had the ability to separate good from evil and deliver judgement. The connection between the swan and Konan is obvious, so I believe I do not have to elaborate more on this. Finally here is a picture of Brahma according to Hinduism

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and here we can notice that pain is standing on a statue with three faces

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. I can assume that this statue is either made as a worship for Brahma or either for the holly trinity. One thing is for sure, that this is no coincidence.

Rikoudo and the questions about him

Anyway, we all know that for some unknown reason rikoudo sennin did not have any descendants to carry on his will. There is no known clan who has the rinnegan, in fact it is confirmed in the manga that such clan never existed. But why is that? Rikoudo knew that he was going to die someday why didn?t he have children? Is it that he did not like any woman enough to have kids with her? Is it that he was not liked by anyone? Or maybe something else, like he knew that he was never going to die? Or maybe he had children but for some unknown reason they did not have rinnegan?
Judging from the current user and his arrogance of power, his abilities, the fact that he thinks he is never going to die (I am talking about nagato) I am pretty sure Rikoudo himself knew he was immortal and so I am convinced that what has happened is what I have underlined. But still, rikoudo is confirmed to be dead. Why and how did he die, taking into account that he was immortal? Who killed him? And why is that even if he is dead and without any known descendants to form a clan someone else has rinnegan? And finally have his children died? So I write this theory to explain the answers to all these questions and generally the connection between sharingan and rinnegan. So if you want to know the truth, keep reading.


Rikoudo and his life

To begin with, it is common knowledge now that rikoudo received rinnegan and put order in the world plus the fact that he was the first ninja. But how is that after rikoudo, ninjas started being produced? If we take into account that he was the first ninja and had no children how is that possible? I assume (one more time inspired from Hinduism) that the other god from the wholly trinity, Vishnu the maintainer, gave to a woman another tool with divine properties, the Byakugan. And having the role of the maintainer that woman identified rikoudo with her eyes and rikoudo her with his eyes and so they had two children both of them having byakugan (and by this way the the ninja world maintained). And that I how ninjas started existing. But the story now begins. The two sons of rikoudo competed with each other trying to prove their worth to their father in order for him to select one of them to give them the power of rinnegan. Well if you wonder, how is it possible that rikoudo give rinnegan to one of his son. It is the same way how it is passed from one person to another until know ( see how nagato obtained rinnegan) and how the aspect of the seven sages is created. For example if we take a closer look at this picture

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and you will see two candles placed behind the sage. Why did Kishimoto include those random candles in the image? Allow me to quote something interesting from Wikipedia under rebirth:


The beginning of everything

So, the process is easy. When Rikoudo finally decided and chose one of his sons, the one who was not selected was enraged and tried to kill his brother but he did not succeed and he was banished. Roaming in the world, he finally found a woman and had children with her. But one night when there wa crescent moon, Shiva the antagonist of brahma approached him and offered power. He told him that if he gave to him his soul he would give him as an exchange eyes stronger than byakugan, powerful enough to cope with rinnegan. Not only that but he also told him that being the master of fire himself, he would enable him to use fire proficiently. So the young man corrupted by his will for power gave his soul to the evil god ,and it was then when the powerful tengu Sojobo took his soul. His byakugan eyes evolved and became red ,the colour of Shiva, and were named Sharingan. It would be nice if you read (if you haven?t already) this theory on sojobo:

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. You will notice that there are hints of sojobo?s being everywhere . Some more lore here. Tengu is the same being as garasu, if you notice this page you will see birds similar to garasu:

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Many characteristics of the god Shiva can be found in the uchiha clan. For example the crescent moon, check the manga (itachi)
Snakes? check the manga (sasuke)
ambiguity and paradox, whose attributes include opposing themes?check the manga (madara)
(It is interesting to note here that each of these characteristics are connected to a different uchiha member,for example snakes with sasuke, moon with itachi and madara with ambiguity and paradox)

The battle

One of the many attributes of sojobo is his shapeshifting ability. The young man with sharingan decided that it was time to get revenge and kill his father , rikoudo sennin. Having confidence in himself knowing that he could rival with his new powers his father, he changed his form concealed his eyes and returned to his family lying that he admitted that what he has done in the past was wrong. His brother was extremely happy that his long lost brother was for once again with him but sadly enough he did not know that the true reason he had come back was to kill their father.(note here that sojobo, being a bird and not being noticed by his brother who had byakugan is why no huyga has complete 360 vision) After some time, the young man with sharingan decided to set in motion his plan and so challenge his father.



When they finally battled, rikoudo witnessed the true power of sharingan .Unable to cope with the unparalleled powers of his son, rikoudo was forced to summon eight tailed beasts to assist him in the battle. Now his son was the one who was in a very bad situation. After realising that there would be no way he could win even with his sharingan ,he asked Shiva for more power.
Shiva replied to him telepathetically, and told him that if he wanted more power he had to sacrifice the purity of all his descendants forever-he had to accept that he and all his descendants will be cursed forever. The young man blinded by revenge accepted. Then the god Shiva, being the god of fire, summoned a tailed beast even more powerful than the other eight, he summoned the fire fox kuybi. The man with the sharingan managed to use kuybi but for the cost of being cursed. Nevertheless the battle was for one more time even. Then, Rikoudo sennin understanding that he could not defeat his son used an extremely powerful teqnique in order to seal his son forever. He used Chibaku Tensei. The same teqnique nagato used to capture kuybi. But the power of the jutsu Rikoudo used was much more greater and bigger than nagato?s. It was in that fight, with this jutsu , that he created moon. But rikoudo being exhausted from the whole fight he died after using this jutsu. His son unable to do anything was sealed forever in the moon, while kuybi was set free appearing when human malice gathered. Sadly enough this happened before rikoudo transfered rinnegan to his other son. But his wife using a forbidden jutsu and at the cost of her life made it so that the rinnegan will transfer to somebody each time the user dies, still with less power.

So I believe that is what has happened in the past. I made this first part of theory based on the few things we know. Still they are not random things I just imagined. Now let?s go to the current time.

Part2

Wars for one more time started. There were clans fighting clans. But two were the most powerful and renown. The senju and the uchiha clan (uchiha clan consists of the descendants of the son of rikoudo who was sealed) During one of these wars a young boy named madara was born. He was specially talented and his chakra was one of the best even among the uchihas. As he grew older and more powerful he became the leader of the uchiha clan. As the leader of the uchiha clan he fought with Shodai who was the leader of the senju clan. As madara fought with shodai his name and fame became more and more well known. But because he and his clan became more famous they made new enemies constantly. So his brother offered his eyes, in order for madara to become more powerful. But in the end both clans were exhausted from the endless fighting . So when the senju offered a truce everyone except madara willingly agreed. Madara was angered and wondered for what has his brother died. Nevertheless being the leader of his clan he had to listen to their needs and so he accepted. Still the diferencies were not settled. When the time to choose a hokage came there was a dispute between madara and shodai. Everyone chose shodai , but madara knowing that the uchiha clan started losing its supremacy ?link- 399 08.Chose to oppose Hashirma. However there was no one who would follow him and as a result Madara felt he was betrayed and he left the village.
What was madara doing during this period?


Madara during his absence
Now has anyone wondered what has he done during this period of time? I am sure madara being the former leader of the uchiha clan knew the secret and the relation between kuybi and sharingan. He searched for the legendary fox in order to gain power but he could not find it. Consumed by revenge he was in a desperate situation and he did not know what to do. It was then when his ancient ancestor who was sealed in the moon appeared before him and told him everything about the uchiha past, the rinnegan ,rikoudo and kuybi. Madara who was now angry because he was betrayed, asked from his ancestor to give him strength to fight his rival shodai. He replied to madara that he could not give him all his powers yet because he was sealed in the moon but he could give him enough strength to be undefeatable and immortal. So sojobo who was still in the first uchiha?s soul transferred into madara and gave him mystical powers like teleportation and immortality. He also gave him kuybi to control. Lastly he told madara that if he wanted all his powers he had take the eyes of another uchiha member who would have much power and potential enough to unseal him from the moon. Madara fascinated with his new powers agreed to everything and so he started his plans. First of all he had to fight with hashirama and make it seem he loses so he would have all the time to prepare and execute his long term plan.

Damn I Got Lost Threw The Whole Thing

 

[Orion]

A very gud theory as expected from you......I also read this theory on OneManga but no idea dat it was you.....
What Emperor said is correct. Lord vishnu and Lord Shiva are said to be two dides of same coins and they are not enemies but are supportive of each others' activities...
But as u replied Kishi can tweak lores for better story line and this statement itself can stand against your theory.....
But again very gr8 theory.. Keep up d gud work....

 

[Avani]

I have posted this in other forums too. So please do not tell me that you have seen this theory in other forums too.

, Shiva the antagonist of brahma approached him and offered power. He told him that if he gave to him his soul he would give him as an exchange eyes stronger than byakugan, powerful enough to cope with rinnegan. Not only that but he also told him that being the master of fire himself, he would enable him to use fire proficiently.

.....

Shiva replied to him telepathetically, and told him that if he wanted more power he had to sacrifice the purity of all his descendants forever-he had to accept that he and all his descendants will be cursed forever.......

Ok, I am officially offended. It will be better is you keep your philosophical theories to the philosopihes and concepts you are really familliar with.

Shiva is not an evil god. And no, there is no such concept, even remotely of Shiva exchanging souls for power. He doesn't do it that way. This concept is alien to Hinduism. Period. You used words Evil god for Shiva- and represnted him similarly as the concept of Devil in Christianity.

Your concept of evil Shiva is plain wrong. Shiva is god of distruction as well as creation. He is the god who envented Yoga. He doesn't like evil deeds of any kinds. Unless provoked to the extremes he is supposed to be very nice and very easily pleased. Shiva means "the One who is eternally pure" or "the One who can never have any contamination of the imperfection of Rajas and Tamas. He destroys evil and ignorance.

By the way Shiva is depicted as having either one face or Five. You see only three faces in that pannel because the remaing two are supposed to be hidden from the view becasue of the angle.

Please learn to respect other faiths and do not mix concept when you are talking about some specific religion. It would be nice if you stop mis presenting Shiva and twisting the concept to suit your theory. There are people who actually follow that religion and have more respect for him than you.

 

[Avani]

Hm i made this theory long ago. Anyway, i cannot disaree with you on this matter being an ex-christian orthodox having no clue on lore,religion etc. of other countries. However Kishi can twist the role of these gods and make them antagonists, of some sort at least.

Kishi can pick ideas from anywhere and mix them and twist them but he is not making this theory. He is not the one dragging in the names of the gods in other religion from the RL. You did.

This theory makes others unfamiliar with HIndu religion think that Shiva represents evil of some kind who will stoop to rather questionable behaviour to suit himself. And that's just WRONG.

 

[peaceful]

Please spare me from your psuedo philosophy. I realize you feel a need to impress people,

And here is people when people attack others personally with no proper argument.

however, atleast choose a better venue for trying to discuss what you've read about absolute truth and relative truth,

Can you give me the name or the text of what you say i read? Thank you!!!

as it was completely out of place here.

Not really.

It's nice to see you excited about what you just learned, but there is a time and place to parrot textbooks and a time and place to think for yourself.

Hey philosophy in its own meaning means thinking.

"It's probably wrong." Let's do some common sense with this statement. It is probably(note: I said probably to be nice. I apologize.) wrong because you created 3 characters that Kishi has never before even mentioned in his story.

Three characters?

I'm sure you are aware that the chances of him approaching it the same way as you are astronomical, right?

No?

You're "probably" wrong because you were wrong about the very bases of your "antagonist" theory. You are "probably" wrong because you made up a story of past events which any of us could do.

Really now? Why is that i have not seen anyone

I enjoyed the story but to say there is even a chance that this is the way Kishi will explain it? That's probably absurd, probably egotistical and probably wrong.

And here is people who claim to read what i have posted, then attacking me personally, and finally it turns out to be that they did not even read what i have posted

I apologize for things like simple logic and common sense. I do realize that students of new age philosphy like to argue in circles and make the simplest things complicated

.

A very gud theory as expected from you......I also read this theory on OneManga but no idea dat it was you.....
What Emperor said is correct. Lord vishnu and Lord Shiva are said to be two dides of same coins and they are not enemies but are supportive of each others' activities...
But as u replied Kishi can tweak lores for better story line and this statement itself can stand against your theory.....
But again very gr8 theory.. Keep up d gud work....

ThaNK YOU!!! read what i am going to reply to is that necessary...

Ok, I am officially offended. It will be better is you keep your philosophical theories to the philosopihes and concepts you are really familliar with.

Shiva is not an evil god. And no, there is no such concept, even remotely of Shiva exchanging souls for power. He doesn't do it that way. This concept is alien to Hinduism. Period. You used words Evil god for Shiva- and represnted him similarly as the concept of Devil in Christianity.

Your concept of evil Shiva is plain wrong. Shiva is god of distruction as well as creation. He is the god who envented Yoga. He doesn't like evil deeds of any kinds. Unless provoked to the extremes he is supposed to be very nice and very easily pleased. Shiva means "the One who is eternally pure" or "the One who can never have any contamination of the imperfection of Rajas and Tamas. He destroys evil and ignorance.

By the way Shiva is depicted as having either one face or Five. You see only three faces in that pannel because the remaing two are supposed to be hidden from the view becasue of the angle.

Please learn to respect other faiths and do not mix concept when you are talking about some specific religion. It would be nice if you stop mis presenting Shiva and twisting the concept to suit your theory. There are people who actually follow that religion and have more respect for him than you.

-facepalm- I really liked that you felt offended . You do realize that what you are saying is retarted, dont you? Of course Kishi is never going to show us gods, Shiva or Vishnu etc. Like he hasnt done till now. But most of his work has been inspired by Mythology and religion. He takes some facts from here and there and creates his story. He will never say " hey guys, i did this based on Hinduism".

 

[Preta]

And here is people when people attack others personally with no proper argument.

Actually I made a very proper argument. I will be the last person to make a purely ad hominen attack because they annoy me to no end. However, I find it ironic that you should wish to open with such a line, trying to discredit my argument by saying it is no argument at all, rather than addressing the points, is that very kind of attack. =)

Can you give me the name or the text of what you say i read? Thank you!!!

I am by no means accusing you of plagiarism, sorry if you misunderstood. I was simply stating that relative truth vs absolute truth is philosphy 101, they may be mostly your words, but they are not your ideas. They are however the favorite topic of psuedo philosophers, which is why I cannot claimed to be surprised.

Not really.

Yes really.

Hey philosophy in its own meaning means thinking.

You're quite right, which is why I invite you to "think" of something original. Parroting old philosophical debates in an attempt to impress people is not "thinking for yourself," it is repeating the ideas of someone else.

Three characters?

The wife of the sage and his two sons, yes you created 3 characters.

No?

So you believe Kishi will give the background as the wife and two sons of the sage, one of whom is now trapped in the moon after fighting his father? Again, I liked your story and thought it was well thought out, and quite original(good job), but when you're trying to portray it is a possible prediction of what will actually happen? That's abit over the top, I'm not sure how you can be serious...

Really now? Why is that i have not seen anyone

Probably because people like to make predictions and possible spoilers by getting atleast a small number of facts that make it probable? If you want a "prediction" like yours, you will find plenty in the fan fiction section. It's not that they don't exist for you to see, you're just looking in the wrong place. =)
I'll do one right now.

The sage married a woman, she gave birth to two sons. They each had a small portion of their fathers power, one a sharingan, one a Byukagan. Then their father was like "hey want to see a trick?" He formed some seals and brought light to the night by creating the moon. The end. Oh trust me, that's probably what kishi will do...right?

And here is people who claim to read what i have posted, then attacking me personally, and finally it turns out to be that they did not even read what i have posted

If you don't want it approached as a theory, don't call it a theory. If you don't believe it is true, don't answer doubt in it's probability with a post about the different kinds of human truth. =)

-facepalm- I really liked that you felt offended . You do realize that what you are saying is retarted, dont you? Of course Kishi is never going to show us gods, Shiva or Vishnu etc. Like he hasnt done till now. But most of his work has been inspired by Mythology and religion. He takes some facts from here and there and creates his story. He will never say " hey guys, i did this based on Hinduism".

Are you that obtuse? He is not talking about Kishi, he is talking about YOU and your pathetic misrepsentation of something you know nothing about. It has nothing to do with how Kishi creates a story and everything to do with you not knowing what you're talking about.

In my story God the Father gives the sage his eyes, but then the evil antagonist of the Father, Jesus Christ, tries to give his son more powerful eyes to throw off God's plans.
^^^ Take a good hard look. Nothing to do with Kishi, but probably offensive to many christians and completely lacking in facts, infact the exact opposite of fact by calling these two enemies. Now should I call the guy who calls me out, a retard? Hmmm? When it is infact me(you) who got everything wrong?