Regular genjutsu and it's major flaw or plot hole

Sof6p

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I was wondering if anybody could explain how performing handseals could affect an opponent and put them under an illusion.

Sharingan Genjutsu affects the opponents mind by using Hypnosis via the eyes.

Sound based genjutsu affects the opponents mind via hearing.

Hypothetically speaking if we follow the common pattern then smell based illusions would affect a person via sense of smell and taste based illusions would affect via taste.

All of these forms would require an external stimulus using one of the sense to cause the alteration to the opponents mind and cause the illusion to take effect.

Wouldn't it make more sense for regular genjutsu to require physical contact. The user could form the hand seals then transfer the alteration to the opponents brain via the stimulus of touch.

I think the current system of genjutsu via seals is flawed and requires a retcon.

Discuss and please explain if anybody knows how regular genjutsu works.
 
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Tauren Chieftain

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Regular genjutsu makes sense, normal ninjutsu is created by hand signs and its physical while normal genjutsu is also created by hand signs but its illusion (not physical)
 
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Sof6p

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It makes sense normal ninjutsu is created by hand signs and its physical while normal genjutsu is also created by hand signs but its illusion (not physical)
What makes sense ? Do you mean what I'm suggesting or how it normally works?

They talked about genjutsu being one of the 3 main things in part 1, kakashi used it on Sakura, then it kinda disappeared into Sharingan.
I remember, that doesn't answer or remove it's flaw.
 

Sof6p

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How it normally works .
It doesnt make sense to me that's why I made this thread. When a ninja performs hand seals they cause a change in form and nature producing a tangible jutsu. Why would handseals produce a change in an opponents mind? How is the change, chakra or the affects of the illusion transferred to the opponent?
 

salamander uchiha

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Those are some good points. Genjutsu works by using yin release so how does one transfer yin release to the opponents mind with just seals there should be a medium.

Ps. Rep for a good thread.
 

Sof6p

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In that case maybe it's released an invisible chakra then not requiring a direct contact to the opponent?
If an opponent was hit with a physical wave they would know that something has happened. They would be able to discern the effects of a genjutsu that would render the genjutsu null and void.

Those are some good points. Genjutsu works by using yin release so how does one transfer yin release to the opponents mind with just seals there should be a medium.

Ps. Rep for a good thread.
Thanks for the rep:)
 

sayian

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That wouldn't solve the problem but it's better alternative. it's probably why kishi kept kurenai irrelevant and only used her against someone who could easily counter it. never really understood the "medium" for it either, kabut's made sense because it used feathers but what was kurenai's?
 

Tauren Chieftain

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It doesnt make sense to me that's why I made this thread. When a ninja performs hand seals they cause a change in form and nature producing a tangible jutsu. Why would handseals produce a change in an opponents mind? How is the change, chakra or the affects of the illusion transferred to the opponent?
I see your point and it does make sense but I don't think regular genjutsu working mechanism has flaw . Its still unclear how exactly genjutsu works and why people who realise they are in genjutsu can't break them.

This is manga saying that regular genjutsu doesn't make sense would mean that regular hand sign ninjutsu doesn't make sense too
 

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I was wondering if anybody could explain how performing handseals could affect an opponent and put them under an illusion.

Sharingan Genjutsu affects the opponents mind by using Hypnosis via the eyes.

Sound based genjutsu affects the opponents mind via hearing.

Hypothetically speaking if we follow the common pattern then smell based illusions would affect a person via sense of smell and taste based illusions would affect via taste.

All of these forms would require an external stimulus using one of the sense to cause the alteration to the opponents mind and cause the illusion to take effect.

Wouldn't it make more sense for regular genjutsu to require physical contact. The user could form the hand seals then transfer the alteration to the opponents brain via the stimulus of touch.

I think the current system of genjutsu via seals is flawed and requires a retcon.

Discuss and please explain if anybody knows how regular genjutsu works.
Maybe if you use regular genjutsu then you don't need the five senses, you use the yin chakra or something and activate it that way.
 

Sof6p

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I see your point and it does make sense but I don't think regular genjutsu working mechanism has flaw . Its still unclear how exactly genjutsu works and why people who realise they are in genjutsu can't break them.

This is manga saying that regular genjutsu doesn't make sense would mean that regular hand sign ninjutsu doesn't make sense too
I'm not being rude bit I don't think you did.

Regular ninjutsu = hand seals which change chakra form and then the user releases a tangible jutsu. The user himself is the medium for the jutsu.

Regular genjutsu = forms seals and somehow the opponent's mind is affected without any medium to transfer this change. That isn't just a minor flaw but a major blunder which can't be explained away.

If you look over my original post all the forms of genjutsu require 1 of the 5 senses to act as a gateway to the mind. Regular genjutsu doesn't do that and that's why I think it's flawed. The sense of touch should've been used as the medium for regular genjutsu.

Maybe if you use regular genjutsu then you don't need the five senses, you use the yin chakra or something and activate it that way.
All genjutsu use yin chakra and they all affect the mind. They also require a medium so why would a normal genjutsu not require one? How does the uswrs own yin chakra magically prodice a change in the opponets mind?
 
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I'm not being rude bit I don't think you did.

Regular ninjutsu = hand seals which change chakra form and then the user releases a tangible jutsu. The user himself is the medium for the jutsu.

Regular genjutsu = forms seals and somehow the opponent's mind is affected without any medium to transfer this change. That isn't just a minor flaw but a major blunder which can't be explained away.

If you look over my original post all the forms of genjutsu require 1 of the 5 senses to act as a gateway to the mind. Regular genjutsu doesn't do that and that's why I think it's flawed. The sense of touch should've been used as the medium for regular genjutsu.



All genjutsu use yin chakra and they all affect the mind. They also require a medium so why would a normal genjutsu not require one? How does the uswrs own yin chakra magically prodice a change in the opponets mind?
Maybe it connects through atoms in the air...
No I don't know you found a plot hole.
 
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Tauren Chieftain

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I'm not being rude bit I don't think you did.

Regular ninjutsu = hand seals which change chakra form and then the user releases a tangible jutsu. The user himself is the medium for the jutsu.

Regular genjutsu = forms seals and somehow the opponent's mind is affected without any medium to transfer this change. That isn't just a minor flaw but a major blunder which can't be explained away.

If you look over my original post all the forms of genjutsu require 1 of the 5 senses to act as a gateway to the mind. Regular genjutsu doesn't do that and that's why I think it's flawed. The sense of touch should've been used as the medium for regular genjutsu.



All genjutsu use yin chakra and they all affect the mind. They also require a medium so why would a normal genjutsu not require one? How does the uswrs own yin chakra magically prodice a change in the opponets mind?
Illusion is a medium once you see illusion chakra inside illusion effects you mind.Its very simple.
 

Sof6p

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Illusion is a medium once you see illusion chakra inside illusion effects you mind.Its very simple.
Why would you see illusion chakra ? It would have to have affected your mind for you to see the illusion in the first place. The effect can't precede the cause if you catch my drift therein lies the flaw.
 
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Tauren Chieftain

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Why would you see illusion chakra ? It would have to have affected your mind for you to see the illusion in the first place. The effect can't precede the cause if you catch my drift therein lies the flaw.
Because you created illusion with chakra ,opponent can't stop you from creating illusion it can only try to realise illusion is cast and try to break it.

1. user use hand sings to create illusion.
2.Illusion is created.
3. opponent see illusion and gets caught and suffers its effect.

If opponent knew illusion will be casted he would simply close his eyes or ears if its sound genjutsu.

Thats the whole point of genjutsu.Opponent must realise something is wrong to beat it.
 

Sof6p

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Because you created illusion with chakra ,opponent can't stop you from creating illusion it can only try to realise illusion is cast and try to break it.

1. user use hand sings to create illusion.
2.Illusion is created.
3. opponent see illusion and gets caught and suffers its effect.

If opponent knew illusion will be casted he would simply close his eyes or ears if its sound genjutsu.

Thats the whole point of genjutsu.Opponent must realise something is wrong to beat it.
I think you've misunderstood my post.

By your example regular genjutsu works like the bunshin jutsu which produces false clone that aren't tangible, and would therefore be illusions. That isn't the case and the bunshin jutsu is classed as ninjutsu, even though your opponent sees those illusions. That is why your example doesn't make sense, and that's why there exists a flaw in the current form of regular genjutsu.

Genjutsu that use a medium of 1 of the senses like the sharingan and sound genjutsu and cause the change of yin chakra in the opponets mind makes sesne. With regular genjutsu that's not the case and therefore it's flawed unless the sense of touch is used as the medium. Like I've pointed out your version if genjutsu is describing ninjutsu like the bunshin jutsu.

I think a retcon is definitely needed as the current format of regular genjutsu is flawed.
 
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