[Theory] Read Chapter 586 again

UzumakiRyu

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It does not matter regarding the fight itself. The fight itself was a draw, they both used their most powerful techniques fully loaded with bijuu and nature chakra, it was a draw. From then on, it was their own skill against each other, and the both of them were struggling to stand even, and sasuke was still not totally used to his rinnigan as kurama stated.

So techinically, if sasuke was used to the rinnigan, he would have won, according to kurama, but let's not go there, I don't want to make you mad that ultimately it was plot that it was a draw between them.

Naruto won the morality, they both tied in battle. So some of you with that banner don't realize what you all are really saying, which is what makes a lot of us laugh, because I remember a time when these itachi fanboys insisted on here in 2012 that itachi > nagato for so and so reasons, but a lot of us knew it wasn't true, and now the databook is clearing that up. If you truly believe naruto > Sasuke, you are just as dumb as the itachi > Nagato fans. Sorry man, but that's just how it is.

They both are just as beat up, both are dying, both used the best techs against one another, it's over. Neither of them are stronger, they have techniques they are better at then the other yes, but they even it all out like yin and yang, quite literally. Susanoo = yin, kurama mode = yang. The bro fist done within those two forms is obvious enough of a reference of two equals battling it out alone.
I don't know about Sasuke but I know Naruto didn't use his most powerful techniques and why would he when if he did would probably not end up well for Sasuke.

Doesn't that make you stupid like Itachi vs Nagato fans when you pretty much just stated that Sasuke Mastered Rinnegan > Naruto.


Naruto does want to beat Sasuke but not the Sasuke he fought at VotE 2 to which he pretty much stated himself.

Like I already said Naruto withheld certain techniques against Sasuke so did not go full out with his most powerful techniques so you're wrong in assuming this at least when your refering to Naruto.

I realize fully of what I done when I put that signature in my profile so no need to assume I don't understand why I used it in that case.
 

ClydeFrog

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It is an interesting theory - although I think Sasuke's eye could be perceived as being 'dull' from chakra exhaustion. It's not entirely clear what is going on, there.

I do not, however, think Izanami would be an effective genjutsu, here.

To understand the 'point' of Izanagi and Izanami, one must look at the story of Izanagi and Izanami within Shinto lore. Izanagi and Izanami were brother and sister deities. Izanami died during the birth of a child (I forget which god this was to be) - and Izanagi killed this child before going to the world of the dead (often considered to be the earthly plane when discussing gods) to reclaim her.

When he finally found her, Izanami had embraced her death and fate. Izanagi was so horrified by her appearance that he fled as Izanami attempted to trap him within the world of the dead. Izanagi escaped, rolling a stone in front of the entrance.

Thus - Izanagi flees from consequence.

Izanami embraces consequence.

Izanagi would be infinitely more useful to Sasuke, at this point. Izanami doesn't seem as though it would be very effective on Naruto....

Unless Naruto has been within Izanami this entire time .... re-living his conflict with Sasuke over and over.

But I doubt it.

I don't think there is enough time left in the chapter to pull that kind of an "upset."

Kishimoto is writing the end of the story to be open enough to continue in the future, but concluding the arc to clear the immediate plot events. He doesn't have enough time to end it on a kink, like that.

Well - I guess, he could - but it would feel cheap. He hasn't added much of a philosophical brain-bending theme to the story and to end it on that note would just be foolish writing, in my opinion. Of course, that describes almost the last four years of plot...
Get your logic out of here.
 

Flaming Amaterasu

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I don't know about Sasuke but I know Naruto didn't use his most powerful techniques and why would he when if he did would probably not end up well for Sasuke.

Doesn't that make you stupid like Itachi vs Nagato fans when you pretty much just stated that Sasuke Mastered Rinnegan > Naruto.


Naruto does want to beat Sasuke but not the Sasuke he fought at VotE 2 to which he pretty much stated himself.

Like I already said Naruto withheld certain techniques against Sasuke so did not go full out with his most powerful techniques so you're wrong in assuming this at least when your refering to Naruto.

I realize fully of what I done when I put that signature in my profile so no need to assume I don't understand why I used it in that case.
Naruto used his most powerful techniques. He gathered all available nature energy to just be capable matching Sasuke with the bijuus energy. And the same can be said of sasuke, as he withheld genuutsu techniques and did not use his instant swapping more than once against naruto. It seems you don't, because you appear to think that naruto is stronger then sasuke. So no, you are just portraying what the vast majority of us are: A humble brother brought back from darkness thanks to a ever-loving brother.

Nothing to do with the actual fight. The fight was even manga wise, plot wise, naruto was saved via sasuke not being used to his rinnigan.
 

UzumakiRyu

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Naruto used his most powerful techniques. He gathered all available nature energy to just be capable matching Sasuke with the bijuus energy. And the same can be said of sasuke, as he withheld genuutsu techniques and did not use his instant swapping more than once against naruto. It seems you don't, because you appear to think that naruto is stronger then sasuke. So no, you are just portraying what the vast majority of us are: A humble brother brought back from darkness thanks to a ever-loving brother.

Nothing to do with the actual fight. The fight was even manga wise, plot wise, naruto was saved via sasuke not being used to his rinnigan.
Naruto could of used 9 Biju TBRS or 3 TBBM but these are very destructive and probably amongst his most powerful attacks.

Gathering that natural energy was a defensive and in the moment counter which pretty much shows his initiative in the midst of that battle and he only matched a temp powered Biju infused PS Sasuke. He prob wouldn't of had to if Sasuke didn't have the Biju from the beginning just saying. Sasuke didn't have to withold them and him doing so probably tells him from experience (Bee FIght) that genjutsu is meaningless against Naruto.

He used his S/T only once and that was when he used fireball as a diversion because experience tells Sasuke not using a diversion means Naruto would of sensed him coming and him using fireball to keep him occupied is pretty much prove of this fact so unless Sasuke wanted to continue to use diversionary tactics in order to get his S/T to work against Naruto to which he would of caught on to them I think its safe to assume Sasuke figured that would of been useless to use.

Aren't you the one and I quote "So techinically, if sasuke was used to the rinnigan, he would have won, according to kurama" the one stating Sasuke > Naruto if Sasuke had mastered his Rinnegan I'm merely stating and has been my intention throughout that Sasuke lost and people should get over it.

Morality or Physical Naruto won the only fight he intended to, Best to just understand that the only fight that Naruto or Sasuke fought was a moral one and not physical otherwise from the beginning they would of said as much.

Those looking beyond this will make themselves crazy because I am content in the thought that Naruto won his fight and Sasuke lost the only one he fought.
 

Flaming Amaterasu

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Naruto could of used 9 Biju TBRS or 3 TBBM but these are very destructive and probably amongst his most powerful attacks.

Gathering that natural energy was a defensive and in the moment counter which pretty much shows his initiative in the midst of that battle and he only matched a temp powered Biju infused PS Sasuke. He prob wouldn't of had to if Sasuke didn't have the Biju from the beginning just saying. Sasuke didn't have to withold them and him doing so probably tells him from experience (Bee FIght) that genjutsu is meaningless against Naruto.

He used his S/T only once and that was when he used fireball as a diversion because experience tells Sasuke not using a diversion means Naruto would of sensed him coming and him using fireball to keep him occupied is pretty much prove of this fact so unless Sasuke wanted to continue to use diversionary tactics in order to get his S/T to work against Naruto to which he would of caught on to them I think its safe to assume Sasuke figured that would of been useless to use.

Aren't you the one and I quote "So techinically, if sasuke was used to the rinnigan, he would have won, according to kurama" the one stating Sasuke > Naruto if Sasuke had mastered his Rinnegan I'm merely stating and has been my intention throughout that Sasuke lost and people should get over it.

Morality or Physical Naruto won the only fight he intended to, Best to just understand that the only fight that Naruto or Sasuke fought was a moral one and not physical otherwise from the beginning they would of said as much.

Those looking beyond this will make themselves crazy because I am content in the thought that Naruto won his fight and Sasuke lost the only one he fought.

Sasuke sealed the bijuus. Naruto only had access to the kurama inside of him. And yes, it was defensive, but all nature energy possibly available was gathered just to survive as kurama told naruto, which was not contested. Sasuke's genjutsu then to now is many times more powerful. A rinnigan genjutsu >>> Sharingan genjutsu, his genjutsu was just below the mugen genjtusu, in which he was immune to thanks to his eye and saved naruto and the others from being caught into it with his susanoo.'

Again... it was a physical tie because Sasuke was not used to his rinnigan, as kurama noted. It's amazing how you are trying to go against kuramas word, the result of the fight, and both sasuke and naruto refusing to accept they lost or won against the other.
 

UzumakiRyu

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Sasuke sealed the bijuus. Naruto only had access to the kurama inside of him. And yes, it was defensive, but all nature energy possibly available was gathered just to survive as kurama told naruto, which was not contested. Sasuke's genjutsu then to now is many times more powerful. A rinnigan genjutsu >>> Sharingan genjutsu, his genjutsu was just below the mugen genjtusu, in which he was immune to thanks to his eye and saved naruto and the others from being caught into it with his susanoo.'

Again... it was a physical tie because Sasuke was not used to his rinnigan, as kurama noted. It's amazing how you are trying to go against kuramas word, the result of the fight, and both sasuke and naruto refusing to accept they lost or won against the other.
Then he should of used it then if its so powerful lmao.

Stop using the physical battle already, it was a means to an end and there was only one result to which favors Naruto making him the winner.
 

Flaming Amaterasu

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Then he should of used it then if its so powerful lmao.

Stop using the physical battle already, it was a means to an end and there was only one result to which favors Naruto making him the winner.
Yes, just like he should have used it in all of their fights, in which he didn't. Anyway, I won't stop using the physical battle because that is what some idiots think was meant by the "loss" sasuke tried to insist upon and naruto contested him.

There's just no argument there, there is no winner or loser in that fight.
 

UzumakiRyu

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Yes, just like he should have used it in all of their fights, in which he didn't. Anyway, I won't stop using the physical battle because that is what some idiots think was meant by the "loss" sasuke tried to insist upon and naruto contested him.

There's just no argument there, there is no winner or loser in that fight.
Your assumption of there being no winner or loser is yours but don't push it on everyone else and try make it a fact.

Truth is Naruto fought this to prevent 3 things to which he succeeded in doing so.

Truth is Sasuke wanted to follow out those 3 tasks under a mislead sense of justice (Itachi's failed path) that it would lead to a peace temporary but peace non the least.

That is why Sasuke lost because he was following a path that was destined to fail in the first place.

Let me run it down for you the reason I see the words

Sasuke "I've Lost" which are from the Viz version

Sasuke lost because hearing Naruto saying he hurt as much as he did and then went about asking Naruto if he would of continued to fight despite their condition to which he said he would which lead to him saying he lost.

Point here is Naruto used that thing where he made Sasuke understand that he felt his pain as well which made Sasuke revisit old memories and like family Sasuke stopped the fight to prevent naruto doing something stupid by continuing to fight in his condition which he would of had it not been for the words he said.

The Jist of this is if Sasuke was resolved in this goal he would not of cared for what Naruto said and continued to fight but Naruto won him over TNJ or whatever that other word is that makes people understand one another through his words.

Naruto's Goal: Beat sense into Sasuke and therefore prevent the deaths of the Five Kage, The Tailed Beasts and the Five Villages.

Sasuke's Goal: Kill Naruto, The Five Kage, The TB and unite the Five Villages in hate against me.

You should understand one point here.

If Sasuke won that fight the Kage would of died, the TB to and the Five Villages would of been at risk.

Naruto's death would of made Sasuke the most wanted and his death would of come at some point anyway.

So do you understand why naruto's victory was so important? when Naruto said there are no winners or losers he was wrong because if there wasn't a winner then there was a loser which would be him leading to his own death.
 

cmoG

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People still haven't gotten over his loss lmao.
*sigh* Ideals. In the end, Sasuke saw that Naruto was right. Sasuke saw that he didn't need to be alone, walk totally in darkness, nor bring peace alone, hence the questions that Sasuke asked Naruto. In case you didn't notice, both of them were too weak to stand. As far a physical battles go, none won. This wasn't a repeat of Part 1's battle. Even then, Sasuke actually managed to leave, while Naruto had to get rescued by Kakashi, but that's beside the point. Sasuke saying that he lost, was saying that he finally gave in to Naruto's pleas.

Whereas, if he didn't, he wouldn't have ever said those words. Naruto didn't "beat" sense into anyone. Sasuke looked at Naruto's actions. Like, why wouldn't Naruto try to kill him (not saying he could)? Why wouldn't Naruto give up on Sasuke? Remember, Sasuke has no self worth, which is why he was so conflicted in his decisions. He finally realized and said "You know what? This blonde idiot loves me and really is my best friend. Maybe...maybe I don't have to be alone anymore". This was Itachi's will for Sasuke. Itachi lead him on the path of darkness knowing that he'd get there anyway, but he made sure that Sasuke would find love & Itachi saw that manifestation of love within Naruto. That's why he ultimately did trust in Naruto. As for why did Itachi lead him on the path anyway? Again, Itachi knew Sasuke would've gone down that road, but it made sure that he'd survive. That hatred kept Sasuke going & gave him purpose to live. Like how Sasuke said that he'd become the target of hatred for the people, so that they may prosper. He was just redoing what Itachi did with him.
 
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UzumakiRyu

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*sigh* Ideals. In the end, Sasuke saw that Naruto was right. Sasuke saw that he didn't need to be alone, walk totally in darkness, nor bring peace alone, hence the questions that Sasuke asked Naruto. In case you didn't notice, both of them were too weak to stand. As far a physical battles go, none won. This wasn't a repeat of Part 1's battle. Even then, Sasuke actually managed to leave, while Naruto had to get rescued by Kakashi, but that's beside the point. Sasuke saying that he lost, was saying that he finally gave in to Naruto's pleas.

Whereas, if he didn't, he wouldn't have ever said those words.
There is no winner or loser from a factual point Yes.

But from common sense if Sasuke would this means Naruto's dead and so Sasuke carries on with his goals of killing The kage, the TB and unting the Five Villages in Hatred

so from this had Naruto not made sasuke see sense then he would be dead.
 

cmoG

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There is no winner or loser from a factual point Yes. But from common sense if Sasuke would this means Naruto's dead and so Sasuke carries on with his goals of killing The kage, the TB and unting the Five Villages in Hatred

so from this had Naruto not made sasuke see sense then he would be dead.
If you choose to see it that way. Being that this is fiction, the possibilities could be endless and therefore, can't be necessarily fact. Kishi could've made it to where Sasuke saw that he needed Naruto, while having him on the brink of death thus stopping the final blow, but yes, the fact that this was far from a physical battle is indeed fact. I think it could've been more brushed out with both learning and growing more, but it's over with now.
 

Hazo

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Naruto knows his destiny/identify and his goal, thus Izanami would be in-effective only costing him a valuable eye..
 

AlphaSeed

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Naruto knows his destiny/identify and his goal, thus Izanami would be in-effective only costing him a valuable eye..

izanami changes destiny, and his eye closed, also he just was talking about that rinnegan and how he not going to use it, also said as he absorbed chakra that "it was the eyes of the uchiha clan" that will win, rinne not uchiha.
 

Fulger

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It is an interesting theory - although I think Sasuke's eye could be perceived as being 'dull' from chakra exhaustion. It's not entirely clear what is going on, there.

I do not, however, think Izanami would be an effective genjutsu, here.

To understand the 'point' of Izanagi and Izanami, one must look at the story of Izanagi and Izanami within Shinto lore. Izanagi and Izanami were brother and sister deities. Izanami died during the birth of a child (I forget which god this was to be) - and Izanagi killed this child before going to the world of the dead (often considered to be the earthly plane when discussing gods) to reclaim her.

When he finally found her, Izanami had embraced her death and fate. Izanagi was so horrified by her appearance that he fled as Izanami attempted to trap him within the world of the dead. Izanagi escaped, rolling a stone in front of the entrance.

Thus - Izanagi flees from consequence.

Izanami embraces consequence.

Izanagi would be infinitely more useful to Sasuke, at this point. Izanami doesn't seem as though it would be very effective on Naruto....

Unless Naruto has been within Izanami this entire time .... re-living his conflict with Sasuke over and over.

But I doubt it.

I don't think there is enough time left in the chapter to pull that kind of an "upset."

Kishimoto is writing the end of the story to be open enough to continue in the future, but concluding the arc to clear the immediate plot events. He doesn't have enough time to end it on a kink, like that.

Well - I guess, he could - but it would feel cheap. He hasn't added much of a philosophical brain-bending theme to the story and to end it on that note would just be foolish writing, in my opinion. Of course, that describes almost the last four years of plot...
Pretty much this ^
 
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