Rank the Otsutsuki and other top tiers
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salamander uchiha
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Hogaromo never undid the IT except in filler, they only fought Jyubi Kaguya who was after their chakra. So I doubt he needed the Rinnegan at that point.
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They could be been born with RSM that's not much of an issue, I mean even Obito gained it after he became the Jin. He had the same one as Hogaromo after losing the Jyubi. He manifested the staff to extract chakra from Madara.
Damn bro, nice solo. It's beleivable that he has has a toy name Borat which he gives fellatio.
Hagoromo had undone the IT, Hagoromo is speaking of its effects as if he witnessed it first hand. Noticed he said, “...it was ghastly,” in the bottom right panel.
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And the only reason I brought up their Six Paths chakra is to describe that both Hago and Hamura had the Yin-Yang chakra nature, but Hago chose to primarily use the yang chakra in order to seal Kaguya, while Hamura used the Yin. Hagoromo had to have the Rinnegan.
And at this point, I don’t doubt anything I hear in regards to Yahcob ?
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salamander uchiha
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He does describe it but I don't know about that, Kishi's left confusion everywhere. I mean at one part he makes it clear that Hogaromo and Hamura fought the Jyubi and didn't know it was Kaguya. And here he makes it imply he had intimate knowledge of the IT. Having said that he could've heard about it from those that came before him thwy did fear Kaguya after all. It is possible that Hamura possessed the eye power hence yin seal and Hogaromo the yang/bodily powers and the two undid the IT if it was cast. Hogaromo may have woken the Rinnegan later and realised it's a similar power.
Nor do I, he practically lives off of Boruto D riding.
I believe he did undo it, the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei can’t be used unless one of the seal bearers possess a Rinnegan. Which is also why only someone with the Rinnegan can summon the husk. It’s all connected to the Rinnegan. Also we know that at least Hagoromo definitely had the yin-yang nature, that’s why you see Hagoromo’s spirit depicted as a god of both Yin and Yang when he bestowed the seals upon Naruto and Sasuke, and when they actually seal Kaguya. That’s Hagoromo’s avatar in the background.
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Hagoromo’s statement do conflict a lot though, which is why I said that he’d lied about a lot of things back in my “post all screw logic posts”. He contradicts himself to almost no end.
salamander uchiha
Active member
Here's the thing Hogaromo and Hamura never performed the 6 paths Chibaku Tensei. Initially they sealed the 10 tails eye/power and then sealed it in Hogaromo. Kurama confirmed he was the Jin of both the beasts and the husk when the beasts were extracted from Obito(why Obito won't die). It's possible that after Hogaromo became the 10 tails Jin he gained the Rinnegan since he doesn't have it in the scan, it would also explain why his Rinnegan is listed as a KKM instead of a KKG. Anyway elderly weakened Hogaromo who had the Rinnegan was likely assisted by Hamura to perform the 6 paths Chibaku Tensei and seal the husk away. That would make sense as Hogaromo was stripped of chakra at that point and possessed the Rinnegan for Chibaku Tensei. It would also explain when and why Hamura decided to fly off to the moon.
The Hogaromo in the pic above is the Hogaromo post Jyubi at this point he would've gained the Rinnegan and all sorts of powers. This doesn't negate him not possessing the Rinnegan earlier or prior to sealing the Jyubi. That's if the time line and events are considered((him being the Jin).
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I still believe that the scan started all of this wasn’t properly finished. We simply can’t see the Rinnegan properly due to Hagoromo’s other eye being squinted too fiercely, As opposed to the Hagoromo picture that I provided where you can barely see the opposite eye (left eye) depicting the Rinnegan pattern. They’re essentially the exact same flaw, your scan just had a more squinted left eye than the one I posted.
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The Madara pictures I posted were even worse than Hagoromo’s, he didn’t have a Rinnegan pattern at all in either of them. Just showing how the Rinnegan designs vary. Sasuke looks like he has a sharingan here:
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Back to the logical side of this, the parallel that was drawn by showing both Naruto, Sasuke and the two brothers was intentional. Black Zetsu also confirms that the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei had been used when he explained it to Naruto and Sasuke: Btw, notice how distorted the rinnegan seal on Hagoromo’s forehead looks, then look at Hagoromo’s eyes.
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I do remember Kurama saying describing how the husk had enough chakra to sustain life, which elder Madara used it that way too. I have to reread that portion though.
In regards to younger Hagoromo’s mastery of Yin and Yang, it’s represented by his staff. Young Hagoromo‘s staff still displayed both sides that Madara And Obito had shown as Juubi Jins.[/spoiler]
salamander uchiha
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While I agree there can be drawing errors in your scan you can still see more than one ring.
That is true, however I would like to stress that you can see more than one ring in all instances. As for the Rinnegan like forehead pattern that's a religious symbol(forgot what it's called).
I'm aware of the parallel, however all it shows is the sealing of the 3rd eye or Kaguya's will if you like. It's more of Kaguya flashing back to how she was sealed away(personailty wise if you like).
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I've posted them above for your viewing.
I'm not doubting Hogaromo's mastery of Yin Yang but the thing is it's tied to RSM and the Rinnegan wouldn't be necessary for it.
In case there's confusion on what I'm arguing I'll layout a timeline.
Hogaromo(no Rinnegan but has RSM) and Hamura(RSM and Byakugan) fought the Jyubi.
They used Yin Yang seal and sealed the 3rd eye then sealed the Jyubi in Hogaromo.
Hogaromo awoke the Rinnegan after that point or something and gained TSBs.
When he became old he decided to create the tailed beasts. He made them and was too weak to perform the Chibaku Tensei seal.
Hamura came and assisted him and they extracted the husk and Tensei'd it. Or maybe Hamura wasn't even needed at that point but Hogaromo could do it himself. Also why Hamura was ranked lower down the list.
Old man Hamura took his family and went off to the moon.
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We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the drawing aspect of it then
Those statements by Kurama and BZ clash, because BZ stated that before Kaguya was turned into the core of SP-Chibaku Tensei...he (BZ) was created by Kaguya. BZ then proceeds to talk about how Indra and Ashura were born afterwards, which means that Kaguya was the core of the moon while Hagoromo was still young. Meaning that the husk wasn’t inside of Hagoromo, but rather it was inside of the moon. Hagoromo was the Jinchuriki of the ten tail’s chakra but not the husk itself. He was pretty much like Naruto in regards to his psudeo Juubi Jinchuriki state, except he had all of their chakra. (Which is also why he was probably portrayed as the Yang).
Also, in the same way that the bijuu were separated from the husk after Naruto and Sasuke used Six Paths -Chibaku Tensei, The same thing must’ve happened for Hagoromo; except the Rabbit must’ve manifested as opposed to the individual bijuu. Hagoromo must’ve absorbed that chakra (making himself a Jinchuriki) and then divided it into the bijuu afterwards. Kaguya was always the husk and was always in the moon.
I also put Hamura down the list because he’s feat-less, he didn’t even have the Tenseigan when he manifested before Hinata and his doujutsu is a non-canon shit show. Sure he battled Kaguya but Hagoromo was his partner, undoubtedly Hagoromo carried him.
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salamander uchiha
Active member
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
The answer is simple, Kurama's is an explicit detailed account. And it's also confirmed that Obito was host of the Mezo and it was in reference to the Mezo. As for BZ's statement it should be read as my mother gave birth to me before they sealed her away(her power/will) that doesn't negate the Mezo being present. The Psudo Jin statement also clashes with Kurama and Madara achieving the same power as him and his mother.
That's not what happened the seals returned to Hogaromo's hands after Kaguya was marked then Hogaromo said it's time to retrieve you. Hogaromo then formed a seal and after that the tailed beasts the tailed beasts came into existence. It would be a good theory had Kurama not poked a hole right through it with his affirmative statement.
No doubt, my guy.
I agree the answer is simple, Obito’s instance was entirely different from what Kaguya experienced. The seals weren’t used on Obito but yet, Naruto was able to straight up snatch the bijuu out of Obito. Hagoromo did the same thing, except he used the seals and summoned forth the complete chakra of the ten tails before sealing it inside of himself, while the husk got sealed away. The pseudo Jin statement does clash because one of these parties are lying.
The only correct portion there is that the seals returned to Hago, however Hagoromo merely performed the jutsu to teleport them all back home after the seals returned to him. The seals returning to him was his signal to transport them back to earth. That’s what he meant by “retrieve you”. Naruto and Sasuke actually performed the Chibaku Tensei, because after doing, Sasuke knew how to do the standard Chibaku Tensei. He even said that he “finally got used to the abilities of the Rinnegan after [Kaguya’s] battle.” Which was stated directly after encapsulating the bijuu in CT
salamander uchiha
Active member
Maybe but I know for a fact Kurama isn't lying, he has no reason to lie. He was speaking from direct experience/witnessing. Anyway it was described as the same situation as Hogaromo which was the state he entered when only the husk remained.
Yes, Hogaromo retrieved the tailed beasts by removing them from Kaguya then proceeded to seal her. Otherwise the seals returning to Hogaromo served no purpose and there was no reason for them to return to him(by magic). Anyway Sasuke learning to do Chibaku Tensei was it's effects via observation and a Rinnegan user has those innate abilities. Just as he was able to gather and fuse the tailed beasts chakra Then shape it.
No like? NP there's no hostility on my part?
Hagoromo never stated that he used Chibaku Tensei, while both Kaguya’s own recollection and Black Zetsu both recall that happening. Not to mention that we already established that Hagoromo tells a lot of half-truths that often contradict one-another. Black Zetsu and Kaguya’s account of things are absolute. BZ was created after Hago and Hamu sealed Kaguya, which turned Kaguya into the husk that was sealed inside the moon (BZ’s own words); Which is what Hamura and his descendants were guarding. Madara summoned the husk from core of the moon (Toneri attests to this) which means that Kaguya was the husk to begin with. Furthermore both Hagoromo and Hamura were young and scarred up from battle when they sealed Kaguya, we also know that Hagoromo didn’t make the bijuu until he was already an old man. Therefore moon was already created prior to Hago reaching an old age, the anime filler even attests to this.
Now ultimately what all this means is that Hagoromo had the Rinnegan the very first moment they battled against Kaguya (the main point of this convo) and that Kurama’s account of the husk being inside of Hago aren’t to be trusted, which alludes to the pseudo Juubi Jinchuriki comparison with Naruto’s, except Hagoromo hosted all of the Juubi’s raw chakra.
No, again the Naruto and Sasuke were the ones that sealed Kaguya. The seals returning to Hagoromo were his signal that he could prepare to resurrect all of the former Gokage and use their chakra to assist with teleporting the crew back to earth. That’s literally all that was. And the Sasuke situation was also as I spoke of it, because he and Naruto actually performed the process of separating the Bijuu from the husk via their seals. He learned Chibaku Tensei by actually using it one time.
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If I came off as hostile, I apologize. It was around 4 am when I typed my previous response.
salamander uchiha
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Sorry this is where the disagreement is. Kurama is the only one who doesn't lie and is a direct witness. He pretty much confimrs Obito would survive because of the husk just like Hogaromo did. BZ is the arch liar, his words are open to interpretation and can never be absolute. As for Kaguya's recollection it only confirms that she/her will was sealed. Post the Rinne Sharingan being sealed there was no more flashback. It is beleivable that old Hamura helped old Hogaromo seal the husk with an old age Chibaku Tensei. As for the filler it is just that, it even shows Kaguya battling the two sons when neither knew who the Jyubi was.
I'm sorry but there's 0 reason for Kurama's account not to be trusted. He witnessed and experienced the events first hand. You know my stance on the awakening time of the Rinnegan for this reason.
Yes they sealed Kaguya's 3rd eye just like Hogaromo did with the Jyubi's sharingan. However, it was Hogaromo who retrieved them he even made the Chibaku Tensei hand seal.
I don't think we'll be agreeing on these points.
No worries my guy, it happens to all of us.
We definitely disagree on this, save for how we both see how BZ’s words frequent being open for interpretation; except when he explicitly states that Kaguya was turned into the moons core. Kaguya’s recollection confirms that yes, she was sealed and turned into the moon’s core, by a young Hago and Hamura (the planetary debris behind the young siblings proves as much). And since there’s only one moon, the Husk was Kaguya. Unless you believe that Hagoromo waited until he was an elder to seal the Husk into the core of the moon, where Kaguya was already confirmed to be. Which doesn’t make sense.
So did BZ and Kaguya.
Yeah, seems that way.
??
salamander uchiha
Active member
Yes Kaguya's body did become the moon's core but Hogaromo did it in old age alongside Hamura. After he made the tailed beasts, all BZ account and Kaguya's flashback confirm is that Kaguya was sealed(seal her 3rd eye, you seal Kaguya) which is why she gave birth to BZ.
BZ didn't though he's assuming and Kaguya's flashbacks only prove she was sealed away(her power and will were) as that's the first step. Where's both Hogaromoand Kurama(the neutral party) confirm the 10 tails was sealed in Hogaromo. Kurama even confirms the Husk was there
I don't think we're going to agree on these points, lol. Take care my guy?
Even if he isn’t an Otsutsuki, he’s functioning like a descendant of one.