[Debate] Racial Theories of the Altright.

unknownvillain1254

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Then that would mean Lemann's accusation of Murray's data being incorrect has no credible backing, since his source from Carnegie Mellon isn't linked anywhere in the article.

What Im referencing
ARTICLES
PRINTED.
JAN. 18 1997 3:30 AM
The Bell Curve Flattened
Subsequent research has seriously undercut the claims of the controversial best seller.

By Nicholas Lemann
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Charles Murray is a publicity genius, and the publication of his and Richard Herrnstein's book, The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life, in the fall of 1994 was his masterpiece.

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Virtually all ambitious trade hardcover books are preceded by an edition of 100 to 200 flimsy "galley proofs." These are sent out to people who might generate buzz for the book: blurbists, bookers for television talk shows, editors, and--most important--book critics. There is an ethos of letting the chips fall where they may about the sending out of galleys: Now the book will begin to receive uncontrolled reaction. (For example, back in 1991, Murray somehow got hold of the galleys of my own last book, and wrote me heatedly denying that he was working on a book about black genetic intellectual inferiority, as I had asserted. I left the passage in, but softened it.)
The Bell Curve was not circulated in galleys before publication. The effect was, first, to increase the allure of the book (There must be something really hot in there!), and second, to ensure that no one inclined to be skeptical would be able to weigh in at the moment of publication. The people who had galley proofs were handpicked by Murray and his publisher. The ordinary routine of neutral reviewers having a month or two to go over the book with care did not occur. Another handpicked group was flown to Washington at the expense of the American Enterprise Institute and given a weekend-long personal briefing on the book's contents by Murray himself (Herrnstein had died very recently), just before publication. The result was what you'd expect: The first wave of publicity was either credulous or angry, but short on evidence, because nobody had had time to digest and evaluate the book carefully.

The Bell Curve isn't a typical work of trade nonfiction. It is gotten up as a work of original scholarly research. Most works containing fresh regression analysis and historical argument from primary sources would be published in academic quarterlies that send manuscripts out for elaborate, lengthy evaluation before deciding whether to publish them. Herrnstein and Murray didn't do this, so it wasn't until a full year or more after The Bell Curve was published that the leading experts on its subject had a chance to go through the underlying data with care. Therefore, as time went on, the knowledgeability of the Bell Curve discussion grew, but the attention paid to that discussion inevitably shrank.

The debate on publication day was conducted in the mass media by people with no independent ability to assess the book. Over the next few months, intellectuals took some pretty good shots at it in smaller publications like the New Republic and the New York Review of Books. It wasn't until late 1995 that the most damaging criticism of The Bell Curve began to appear, in tiny academic journals. What follows is a brief summary of that last body of work. The Bell Curve, it turns out, is full of mistakes ranging from sloppy reasoning to mis-citations of sources to outright mathematical errors. Unsurprisingly, all the mistakes are in the direction of supporting the authors' thesis.
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First, a quick précis of The Bell Curve. IQ tests, according to Murray and Herrnstein, measure an essential human quality, general intelligence. During the second half of the 20th century, this quality has risen to supreme importance, because society has become increasingly complex. The intelligent have therefore gone through an "invisible migration," from points of origin all over the class system to a concentration at the top of business, government, and the professions. They are likely to become ever more dominant and prosperous. The unintelligent are falling further and further behind. Because intelligence is substantially inherited, nothing is likely to reverse this process. Blacks are overrepresented among the unintelligent. Any efforts government might make to improve the economic opportunities of poor people, especially poor black people, are likely to fail, because their poverty is so much the result of inherited low intelligence. About the best that can be done for these people is an effort to create a world of simple, decent, honorable toil for them.

Herrnstein and Murray begin by telling us that the liberal position on IQ--namely, "Intelligence is a bankrupt concept"--has been discredited, and that "a scholarly consensus has been reached" around their position. This consensus is "beyond significant technical dispute." Thus, by the end of their introduction, they have arranged matters so that if intelligence has any meaning at all, the idiotic liberals stand discredited; and meanwhile, extremely broad claims for intelligence have the cover of "consensus."
The notion that IQ tests are completely useless never prevailed in liberal academia to nearly the extent that Herrnstein and Murray say. A more accurate rendering of the liberal position would be that rather than a single "general intelligence," there are a handful of crucial--and separate--mental abilities; that none of these abilities is important enough to obviate the role of family background and education; and that native ability (and economic success independent of native ability) can be enhanced by improving education, training, and public health. The Bell Curve refers in passing to some of these points, but on the whole it sets up a cartoon-left position as its (easy) target. Meanwhile, the psychometricians who dominate the footnotes of The Bell Curve are John Hunter, Arthur Jensen, Malcolm Ree, and Frank Schmidt. These men are well known within the field as representing its right wing, not a mainstream consensus.

The next problem with The Bell Curve's thesis is in the idea of the rise to dominance of the cognitive elite. To the book's initial audience of Ivy Leaguers, this idea seemed valid on its face. Everybody knows that the best universities, law firms, hospitals, investment banks, and the State Department used to be run by preppies whose main virtue was fortunate birth, and are now open to one and all on the basis of merit.
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B ut the larger premise--that intelligent people used to be scattered throughout the class structure, and are now concentrated at the top--is almost impossible to prove, simply because the mass administration of mental tests is such a recent phenomenon. High scorers on mental tests do "bunch up" (as Herrnstein and Murray put it) in elite-university student bodies. But this is tautological: Any group selected on the basis of scores on mental tests will be composed disproportionately of people who score high on mental tests. Proving The Bell Curve's thesis would require proving that success increasingly correlates with IQ in areas of life where mental tests are not the explicit gatekeepers. To see how The Bell Curve tries and fails to get around these inherent problems, see and.

Having conditioned its audience to view IQ as all-important, The Bell Curve then manipulates statistics in a way that makes IQ look bigger, and everything else smaller, in determining Americans' life-chances.
The basic tool of statistical social science in general, and of The Bell Curve in particular, is regression analysis, a technique used to assign weights to various factors (called "independent variables") in determining a final outcome (called the "dependent variable"). The original statistical work in The Bell Curve consists of regression analyses on a database called the National Longitudinal Study of Youth. The authors claim to demonstrate that high IQ is more predictive of economic success than any other factor, and that low IQ is more predictive of poverty and social breakdown. Virtually all the early commentators on The Bell Curve were unable to assess the merits of the regression analysis. "I am not a scientist. I know nothing about psychometrics," wrote Leon Wieseltier (who was otherwise quite critical) in a typical disclaimer.

But by now the statistics have been gone over by professionals, who have come up with different results. The key points of their critique of The Bell Curve are as follows:

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What Herrnstein and Murray used to measure IQ is actually a measure of education as well as intelligence. All the people tracked in the National Longitudinal Study of Youth took the Armed Forces Qualifying Test, which Herrnstein and Murray treat as a good measure of intelligence. Because the material covered in the test includes subjects like trigonometry, many academic critics of The Bell Curve have objected to its use as a measure only of IQ and not at all of academic achievement. Herrnstein and Murray concede in the footnotes that scores tend to rise with the subjects' education--but they seriously underestimate the magnitude of this rise, as shows. And they resist the obvious inference that the test scores are measuring something other than intelligence.

Most of The Bell Curve's analysis is devoted to proving that IQ has more predictive power than parental "socio-economic status." But Herrnstein and Murray's method of figuring socioeconomic status seems designed to low-ball its influence, as explains.

Herrnstein and Murray begin their discussion of the National Longitudinal Study of Youth data by announcing that they aren't going to analyze the effect of education, because education is too much a result of IQ. It's not an independent variable. (Of course, according to their theory, socioeconomic status is also a result of IQ, but somehow, that doesn't stop them.) Therefore, what you'd most want to know from a policy standpoint--how much education can increase opportunity--isn't dealt with in the book, except in two obscure footnotes. Both would seem to support the liberal, pro-education position that Herrnstein and Murray say is futile. One footnote shows education increasing IQ year by year. The other shows a higher correlation between college degree and family income than between IQ and family income.

One of The Bell Curve's theoretical linchpins is the high heritability of IQ. Herrnstein and Murray, sounding like the souls of caution, write that "half a century of work, now amounting to hundreds of empirical and theoretical studies, permits a broad conclusion that the genetic component of IQ is unlikely to be smaller than 40 per cent or higher than 80 per cent. ... For purposes of this discussion, we will adopt a middling estimate of 60 per cent heritability." This now looks seriously overstated. Michael Daniels, Bernie Devlin, and Kathryn Roeder of Carnegie Mellon University took the same studies on which Herrnstein and Murray based their estimate, and subjected them to a computer meta-analysis ("a powerful method of statistical analysis"--The Bell Curve). Their paper, which has not yet been published, says: "In brief, studies of IQ, and our reanalyses of them, suggest a narrow-sense heritability of 34 per cent and a broad-sense heritability of 46 per cent. [The difference between broad and narrow is too technical to explain in this limited space.] This is a far cry from Herrnstein and Murray's maximum value of 80 per cent or their middling value of 60 per cent. Consequently, Herrnstein and Murray give the impression that IQ is highly 'heritable,' but it is not."




I really wasn't defending Lynn, since I was just recommended to read his material within this thread and never got a chance to read his book, which I intend to do. I was defending Charle's Murray.

I'm in a position to attack or defend Lynn ATM, but if what this critic claims is true, then that would definitely discredit Lynns book.





My bad, that second half of my comment wasn't direct at you, it was directed at Multiply (the guy hyping you up because he can't debate for shit). I think you used the "replied with quote" function, and it included my comments toward Multiply. I'd never insult you or you intelligence unless it was warranted, and I don't think you're being disingeous in the slighest.

I don't plan to respond to this second of your response, unless you want me to address it, although I do plan to read over those sources.

Be glad Africa taught you how to bathe
 

Pumpkin Ninja

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Let's adopt some African babies, put em in school and see how they do. Case closed.
 

Avani

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Then that would mean Lemann's accusation of Murray's data being incorrect has no credible backing, since his source from Carnegie Mellon isn't linked anywhere in the article.

What Im referencing
One of*The Bell Curve's theoretical linchpins is the high heritability of IQ. Herrnstein and Murray, sounding like the souls of caution, write that "half a century of work, now amounting to hundreds of empirical and theoretical studies, permits a broad conclusion that the genetic component of IQ is unlikely to be smaller than 40 per cent or higher than 80 per cent. ... For purposes of this discussion, we will adopt a middling estimate of 60 per cent heritability." This now looks seriously overstated. Michael Daniels, Bernie Devlin, and Kathryn Roeder of Carnegie Mellon University took the same studies on which Herrnstein and Murray based their estimate, and subjected them to a computer meta-analysis ("a powerful method of statistical analysis"--The Bell Curve). Their paper, which has not yet been published, says: "In brief, studies of IQ, and our reanalyses of them, suggest a narrow-sense heritability of 34 per cent and a broad-sense heritability of 46 per cent. [The difference between broad and narrow is too technical to explain in this limited space.] This is a far cry from Herrnstein and Murray's maximum value of 80 per cent or their middling value of 60 per cent. Consequently, Herrnstein and Murray give the impression that IQ is highly 'heritable,' but it is not."

Ah, here you go the link to the article he quoted from:





I think you misunderstood the term unpublished here- the guy wrote his article in Jan 18, 1997. Paper was published in July later that year.

I really wasn't defending Lynn, since I was just recommended to read his material within this thread by Narushima and never really got a chance to read his book (which I intend to do). I was defending Charle's Murray and Hernnstein's TBC.

I'm not in a position to attack or defend Lynn ATM, but if what this critic claims is true, then that would definitely challenge the credibility of Lynn's book.

Can you provide us Murray's source of data for IQ he used for his bell curve? Did he collect some newer samples or different samples of IQ? Or he based his theory on data provided by Lynn? Because:

"Murray and Herrnstein’s claims about the higher IQs of Asians—widely cited in the media as fact—are almost entirely cited to Richard Lynn, a professor of psychology at the University of Ulster. In the book’s acknowledgements, Murray and Herrnstein declare they “benefitted especially from the advice” of Lynn and five other people.

Among Lynn’s writings cited in The Bell Curve are “The Intelligence of the Mongoloids” and “Positive Correlations Between Head Size and IQ.”

Murray and Herrnstein describe Lynn as “a leading scholar of racial and ethnic differences.” Here’s a sample of Lynn’s thinking on such differences (cited in Newsday, 11/9/94): “What is called for here is not genocide, the killing off of the population of incompetent cultures. But we do need to think realistically in terms of the ‘phasing out’ of such peoples…. Evolutionary progress means the extinction of the less competent. To think otherwise is mere sentimentality.”
-

I linked the source I quoted from, but I hope instead of trying to go for political attack you only focus on factual errors if any, in the part I quoted. e.g if Lynn's data and opinion was not used by Murray. Because when Lynn himself was cherry picking or exaggerating the IQ and related theories, how reliable is the work based on his work?

Lynn being is generous enough to not call out a genocide ( such a wonderful PC person!!) but "phasing out" people based on the psudo science he is selling.

My bad, that second half of my comment wasn't direct at you, ................

I don't plan to respond to this second of your response, unless you want me to address it, although I do plan to read over those sources.

Ohh.. I suppose I had read it only after quoting the post.

That's fine and sure do what you wish at you own pace. We are probably never going to agree on this issue anyway so not much point in going back and forth on it either. But I hope you will keep in mind the limitations of IQ as a test for intelligence, as well as who, why and when collected the sample, and if it's valid enough and large enough to even start theorizing over it or suggesting phasing out whole communities.
 
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Patilda

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There seem's to be a lot of debate in this thread about whether or not certain ethnicity have higher IQ than others etc and that IQ is capped, dependant on ethnicity.

I just wanted to point out that the brain's plasticity doesn't place limits on an individuals IQ, regardless of ethnicity or nationality and you need not look much further than Neuroscience (the science of the brain and nervous system) to figure that out. -

"Intelligence is not fixed, it turns out, nor planted firmly in our brains from birth. Rather, it's forming and developing throughout our lives." ( ) - George Lucas Educational Foundation


"One of the principal supports of pessimistic views like Murray’s has been the alternative and earlier view that the brain is fixed and set at a very early age." Murray's view is an outdated way of thinking that people with a certain agenda tend to latch onto. From as early as the 1900's this view has been challenged and refuted on multiple occasions. The brains plasticity is the widely held view among legitimate scientists and an overwhelming amount of evidence has been and continues to be discovered in support of it. ( ) - National Association of Scholars
 

Multiply

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There seem's to be a lot of debate in this thread about whether or not certain ethnicity have higher IQ than others etc and that IQ is capped, dependant on ethnicity.

I just wanted to point out that the brain's plasticity doesn't place limits on an individuals IQ, regardless of ethnicity or nationality and you need not look much further than Neuroscience (the science of the brain and nervous system) to figure that out. -

"Intelligence is not fixed, it turns out, nor planted firmly in our brains from birth. Rather, it's forming and developing throughout our lives." ( ) - George Lucas Educational Foundation


"One of the principal supports of pessimistic views like Murray’s has been the alternative and earlier view that the brain is fixed and set at a very early age." Murray's view is an outdated way of thinking that people with a certain agenda tend to latch onto. From as early as the 1900's this view has been challenged and refuted on multiple occasions. The brains plasticity is the widely held view among legitimate scientists and an overwhelming amount of evidence has been and continues to be discovered in support of it. ( ) - National Association of Scholars

Best first post I've ever seen.

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SSStylish

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Let's adopt some African babies, put em in school and see how they do. Case closed.





"The test performance of the Black/Black adoptees [in the study] was not different from that of ordinary Black children reared by their own families in the same area of the country."

"This study clearly supports the contention that differences in home environments cannot explain the black-white IQ gap."
 

Multiply

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"The test performance of the Black/Black adoptees [in the study] was not different from that of ordinary Black children reared by their own families in the same area of the country."

"This study clearly supports the contention that differences in home environments cannot explain the black-white IQ gap."
This picture is from your second link.

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Doesn't that clearly show black children getting higher marks than white children? Besides in the area of Reynell expression?

It's funny because the conclusion is:
"On its face, this data seems to offer clear evidence in favor of egalitarianism. However, a of these studies pointed out that environmentalists would need to suppose an environmental advantage of .60SD and .37SD in favor of Blacks in order to account for them outscoring Whites in this dataset. Given the low value of the heritability of IQ at this age, hereditarians would only need to suppose an environmental advantage of .77SD and .46SD for their model to predict the observed results. The difference between these two suppositions, .17SD and .13SD, is a very small difference considering the small sample sizes present in Tizard’s studies and could easily occur by chance.Moreover, the Minnesota study should give us pause about interpreting any transracial adoption study on young children which does not include a follow-up in adulthood. After all, if we had just looked at the age 7 data from that study we might have come away thinking that it supported the environmentalist view too.
Overall, Tizard’s study does offer evidence for the environmentalist view, but only weak evidence."

In other words, this data disproves the theory you are pushing. However since it doesn't fit their narrative obviously the data is inconclusive and weak at best. It's probably just by chance that the blacks and mixed kids outscored the white kids. Yeah, let's go with that.

Edit: Oh and I read the rest of it. They compared a sample of 20 white unmarried men to 3 black unmarried men and called it fair game.
Then in total compared 101 whites to 28 blacks. I can't believe you posted this link as a source in any serious capacity.
 
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Brady

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"The test performance of the Black/Black adoptees [in the study] was not different from that of ordinary Black children reared by their own families in the same area of the country."

"This study clearly supports the contention that differences in home environments cannot explain the black-white IQ gap."

Environment molds genetics, it's only logical to assume that a difference in upbringing would increase the IQ of any ethnic group if the practice/upbringing is wide spread. Obviously, this change in environment might take centuries to bring about a genetic difference but it would still bring a difference nonetheless.
 

unknownvillain1254

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Environment molds genetics, it's only logical to assume that a difference in upbringing would increase the IQ of any ethnic group if the practice/upbringing is wide spread. Obviously, this change in environment might take centuries to bring about a genetic difference but it would still bring a difference nonetheless.

Wow that's funny so what does that say about your genetics white people didn't know simple mathematics or how to wash damn
 

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You guys romanticize this idea of the Romans being these strict and disciplinary people, and yet the Italians who came centuries later were like party animals in comparison to their more stoic ancestors. Clearly, being a descendant of a particular ethnicity doesn't determine the personality or behaviors of that person. It seems as though ideas come and go between particular groups and some ways of life are embraced and others are left behind.
Just gonna correct you on the Roman part. While Romans were very strict and traditional in Military affairs, they were very party loving people. They used to have multiple holidays through the year where parties were the norm, and a lot of them ended in orgies.
 

Brady

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Wow that's funny so what does that say about your genetics white people didn't know simple mathematics or how to wash damn

I'm not white, and Africans didn't know math or how to wash for a long time. Have you ever heard of Roman numerals? Romans are European, Europeans knew simple math just not the level of math you and I use now such as the Arabic numberals and Algebra. Africans had some concept of math but it was stripped away by the Arabs that invaded the continent.

I'm sure that Europeans had a concept of what cleansing themselves was, every group did. The problem was that they would put their waste in the water and it would poison them. What's the point of bathing if your water has your feces, urine, and vomit in it. Europeans were not the most clean of peoples, no civilization was that clean. You'd probably vomit from the stench of every civilization you went to 500 years ago.
 

Pumpkin Ninja

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Environment molds genetics, it's only logical to assume that a difference in upbringing would increase the IQ of any ethnic group if the practice/upbringing is wide spread. Obviously, this change in environment might take centuries to bring about a genetic difference but it would still bring a difference nonetheless.
A change in environment can't create a genetic difference in IQ unless the environment is weeding the people with lower IQ out or the people with higher IQ are producing more. This does not really happen anymore. Also, the point is irrelevant because the study is trying to determine whether the difference between the two races is genetic or because of social economic and environmental differences.
 

unknownvillain1254

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I'm not white, and Africans didn't know math or how to wash for a long time. Have you ever heard of Roman numerals? Romans are European, Europeans knew simple math just not the level of math you and I use now such as the Arabic numberals and Algebra. Africans had some concept of math but it was stripped away by the Arabs that invaded the continent.

I'm sure that Europeans had a concept of what cleansing themselves was, every group did. The problem was that they would put their waste in the water and it would poison them. What's the point of bathing if your water has your feces, urine, and vomit in it. Europeans were not the most clean of peoples, no civilization was that clean. You'd probably vomit from the stench of every civilization you went to 500 years ago.

Yes Rome did have Roman numerals which they got from the Egyptians which were black people which got those from who Nubians because there was a Nubian Empire right next to Egypt. black people you f****** retard I know it's hard for white supremacist.

They even have African games that is literally math that they played in West Africa this is funny because I know you can't accept the truth but whatever do your thing

You know Africans made bigger than the Wall of China but I'm guessing the Arabs came and built that wall for him right now wait a minute I got a better one the white people came down there and invent the wall
 

Brady

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Yes Rome did have Roman numerals which they got from the Egyptians which were black people which got those from who Nubians because there was a Nubian Empire right next to Egypt. black people you f****** retard I know it's hard for white supremacist.

They even have African games that is literally math that they played in West Africa this is funny because I know you can't accept the truth but whatever do your thing

You know Africans made bigger than the Wall of China but I'm guessing the Arabs came and built that wall for him right now wait a minute I got a better one the white people came down there and invent the wall

I'm not white for the last time, I'm black.

Rome gained it's numerals from it's inception, before ever invading Egypt. Do you have any evidence that the Nubians taught the Egyptians math? Egyptian architecture and accomplishments exceed that of the Nubians. Even the Romans, who taught the rest of Europe how to behave, have multiple constructs to show for their greatness. The Nubians and Egyptians have a lot of similarities, but history shows that Egypt conquered Nubia which would explain the similarities in architecture and culture. Whether or not the Egyptians were black is debatable considering a show of multiple races throughout it's history.

Can you bring up these African games? West Africa may have had math, but not on the level of the Asians and Arabs. The Europeans invaded and conquered West Africans. It wouldn't have been as easy as tricking them if the Africans were as advanced as you think. If the Africans were that advanced, European rulers would have left Africa alone, in fear of losing money and resources that could be spent on easier lands to colonize.

Can you mention this wall that Africans built? Does it stretch very far? I tried looking it up but I couldn't find any leads.
 

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I'm not white for the last time, I'm black.

Rome gained it's numerals from it's inception, before ever invading Egypt. Do you have any evidence that the Nubians taught the Egyptians math? Egyptian architecture and accomplishments exceed that of the Nubians. Even the Romans, who taught the rest of Europe how to behave, have multiple constructs to show for their greatness. The Nubians and Egyptians have a lot of similarities, but history shows that Egypt conquered Nubia which would explain the similarities in architecture and culture. Whether or not the Egyptians were black is debatable considering a show of multiple races throughout it's history.

Can you bring up these African games? West Africa may have had math, but not on the level of the Asians and Arabs. The Europeans invaded and conquered West Africans. It wouldn't have been as easy as tricking them if the Africans were as advanced as you think. If the Africans were that advanced, European rulers would have left Africa alone, in fear of losing money and resources that could be spent on easier lands to colonize.

Can you mention this wall that Africans built? Does it stretch very far? I tried looking it up but I couldn't find any leads.

He probably means this:


or


Just guessing
 
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kimb

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Ah, here you go the link to the article he quoted from:





I think you misunderstood the term unpublished here- the guy wrote his article in Jan 18, 1997. Paper was published in July later that year.
Looks like I'm going to either have to wait for the authors to allow me access to the full text or pay for access through a subscription fee for the low, low price of $199.

Thanks for the clarification on the publication dates though, that really cleared things up.


Can you provide us Murray's source of data for IQ he used for his bell curve? Did he collect some newer samples or different samples of IQ? Or he based his theory on data provided by Lynn? Because:

"Murray and Herrnstein’s claims about the higher IQs of Asians—widely cited in the media as fact—are almost entirely cited to Richard Lynn, a professor of psychology at the University of Ulster. In the book’s acknowledgements, Murray and Herrnstein declare they “benefitted especially from the advice” of Lynn and five other people.

Among Lynn’s writings cited in The Bell Curve are “The Intelligence of the Mongoloids” and “Positive Correlations Between Head Size and IQ.”

Murray and Herrnstein describe Lynn as “a leading scholar of racial and ethnic differences.” Here’s a sample of Lynn’s thinking on such differences (cited in Newsday, 11/9/94): “What is called for here is not genocide, the killing off of the population of incompetent cultures. But we do need to think realistically in terms of the ‘phasing out’ of such peoples…. Evolutionary progress means the extinction of the less competent. To think otherwise is mere sentimentality.”
-

I linked the source I quoted from, but I hope instead of trying to go for political attack you only focus on factual errors if any, in the part I quoted. e.g if Lynn's data and opinion was not used by Murray. Because when Lynn himself was cherry picking or exaggerating the IQ and related theories, how reliable is the work based on his work?

Lynn being is generous enough to not call out a genocide ( such a wonderful PC person!!) but "phasing out" people based on the psudo science he is selling.

I don't know if you read through that article thoroughly or not, but if I had no previous knowledge of who Murray and Herrnstein were , I'd come to the conclusion that they were Neo-Nazi white supremacists funded and backed by Neo-Nazis dedicated to demonstrating white intellectual and moral superiority after reading this article. It's clear as day that this is a slanderous hit piece with severe bias. I don't understand how you expect me not to approach this in a political manner when the entirety of the article is politically driven; I mean, the title of the article is "Racism Resurgent: How Media Let The Bell Curve's Pseudo-Science Define the Agenda on Race". When an article refers to it's subjects as "these racists" and attempt to imply financial motive behind the research, I really struggle to see the objectivity of it. Although I plan to look into Lynn's work with a weary eye. If any of this article holds up, that it would be worth looking into.

Now, if you're asking for the sources of TBC, you should read the bibliography of TBC (I linked on the first page of the thread). This article emphasis on Lynn as a reference because of the controversy surrounding his professional career, when he's only one of hundreds (I repeat, hundreds) of referenced books, articles, journals, etc. that makes up the TBC. And mind you, TBC is not the only document coming forward with the same figures as Murray and Hernnstein. As I've stated before, it's the relative scientific consensus that 50 to 80% of IQ is hereditary, but it's still fairly a debated issue among the sciences. I can cite hundreds of articles, journals, meta-analyses, and statistics all coming to similar conclusions as Murray, where as those who hold the opposing position only go as far as explore the having environmental factors of IQ and argue that IQ is not all environmental, which no one ever argued.


Ohh.. I suppose I had read it only after quoting the post.

That's fine and sure do what you wish at you own pace. We are probably never going to agree on this issue anyway so not much point in going back and forth on it either. But I hope you will keep in mind the limitations of IQ as a test for intelligence, as well as who, why and when collected the sample, and if it's valid enough and large enough to even start theorizing over it or suggesting phasing out whole communities.

I agree we won't agree, but I haven't really see any sources that support IQ being primarily environmental. We've spent all this time debating the credibility of one source, without touching anything that supports the contrary. If this back and forth didn't go for as long as it did, I'd be interested in looking at feasible sources that shows IQ being predominately environmental, sources that don't cost an annual fee to read :p

And I've expressed the same attitude towards people using IQ as a means to promulgate any sort of political ideology earlier in this thread. I believe it's entirely unethical to suggest using IQ as justification for eugenics programs, and I believe it's unethical and irrational for anyone to judge others intelligence on the basis of their race.
I have no problem with the alt-right or anyone trying to enlighten people on the reality of race, but I do have a problem with the alt-right trying to use these truths to fuel their white nationalist propaganda and further their ethocentric narrative.


There seem's to be a lot of debate in this thread about whether or not certain ethnicity have higher IQ than others etc and that IQ is capped, dependant on ethnicity.

I just wanted to point out that the brain's plasticity doesn't place limits on an individuals IQ, regardless of ethnicity or nationality and you need not look much further than Neuroscience (the science of the brain and nervous system) to figure that out. -

"Intelligence is not fixed, it turns out, nor planted firmly in our brains from birth. Rather, it's forming and developing throughout our lives." ( ) - George Lucas Educational Foundation


"One of the principal supports of pessimistic views like Murray’s has been the alternative and earlier view that the brain is fixed and set at a very early age." Murray's view is an outdated way of thinking that people with a certain agenda tend to latch onto. From as early as the 1900's this view has been challenged and refuted on multiple occasions. The brains plasticity is the widely held view among legitimate scientists and an overwhelming amount of evidence has been and continues to be discovered in support of it. ( ) - National Association of Scholars

That moment when you realize your quotes are from an author, and a journalist with no scientific background. At least you got people who already agree with you to think they're credible quotes. btw, nice alt.
 
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Avani

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When an article refers to it's subjects as "these racists" and attempt to imply financial motive behind the research, I really struggle to see the objectivity of it.

Problem with social sciences is that they present their theories as if they are on par with the pure sciences or physical sciences like Physics, even when bordering with pseudoscience. They simply aren't.

Some of them have outright fallen in that category( pseudoscience) with time and yet the ideas persist in pop culture. If you start with a preset idea and collect selective samples from too big a pool to prove it statistically, it's not that difficult to come up with a theory to support it, when it comes to Humanities. Sometimes even conjectures are presented as facts. Politics is everywhere and theories that have no legs to stand upon stay despite new discoveries and number of assumptions involved.


Now, if you're asking for the sources of TBC, you should read the bibliography of TBC (I linked on the first page of the thread). This article emphasis on Lynn as a reference because of the controversy surrounding his professional career, when he's only one of hundreds (I repeat, hundreds) of referenced books, articles, journals, etc. that makes up the TBC. And mind you, TBC is not the only document coming forward with the same figures as Murray and Hernnstein. As I've stated before, it's the relative scientific consensus that 50 to 80% of IQ is hereditary, but it's still fairly a debated issue among the sciences.

Neither you nor I are expert on the topic to judge about the sources- it takes specialized study and actual studying of all the sources and their validity of referenced sources. So we have to rely on other people's judgement in good faith about the reliability of the original sources and peer reviews. We cannot just reject the work which goes through a lot more scrutiny about scientific methods with a work which was a private published without it, based on politics alone. So the data and methods for analyzing must be sound with reasonable efforts to keep a minimum error of margin.

Even if we, for the purpose of this argument, accept that an IQ test is universal and perfect, it is not the only measure of intelligence. Genetic studies are still ongoing and many populations are much more complex than assumed by supposed experts. So I would rather not rely on it any time soon.

All this talk about light skin European, Iranian/Persian ( supposedly Aryan), Brahmin high caste people having higher IQ and we end up with a Rahul Gandhi. :devil:

PS: You shouldn't assume that new person is alt.
 
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HashiraMadara

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Good Luck convincing a group of individuals whose race was cited to have high IQ average from outdated research that there is a new one which doesn't place them as high anymore. It's like telling someone that s/he is no longer getting his/her daily pocket money anymore, in this case daily ego drug to feed his master race IQ obsession. It's obvious the lost will reject any form of research lowering their hierarchal status.
 
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