Putin, Ukraine leader break crisis ice

Takure

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(Reuters) - The leaders of Russia and Ukraine held their first talks on Friday since Moscow annexed Crimea, airing ways to end their four-month conflict in a brief encounter during commemorations in France of the World War Two D-Day landings.

French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel brought together Russia's Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian president-elect Petro Poroshenko for a 15-minute meeting before they joined other dignitaries for lunch.

Putin went on to have an equally short meeting with Barack Obama in which, according to a White House official, the U.S. President urged him to recognize Poroshenko as Ukraine's leader and to cut off arms supplies to pro-Russian separatists.

French officials have been plotting for weeks to use the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings - a key event helping to end World War Two - to try to break the ice in the most serious European security crisis since the end of the Cold War.

Hollande's office said Putin and Poroshenko shook hands and agreed that detailed talks on a ceasefire between Kiev government forces and pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine would begin within a few days.

Poroshenko, brought to power by pro-Western protests which Putin has termed a coup, was photographed looking unsmiling and earnest as he stood with the Russian leader and Merkel.

"It was a normal, serious exchange between two leaders," an official in Hollande's office said.

"This marks tentative progress which he (Hollande) welcomes, particularly given this occasion so symbolic for peace," the official said, adding they also discussed steps such as Russian recognition of Poroshenko's election and economic relations.

Putin told traveling reporters he welcomed proposals set out by Poroshenko for ending the conflict. However he declined to say what they were and said Ukraine must halt what he called "punitive" military operations against pro-Russian separatists.

But he added: "I felt the attitude was right as a whole ... If this (plan) happens, then it creates conditions for the development of relations in other areas, including the economy."

A senior French official present at the meeting said they had discussed Russian gas supplies to Ukraine, which Moscow has threatened to cut in a dispute about payment of arrears, as well as key elements of Poroshenko's inaugural address on Saturday.

"If all goes well, they will speak to each other again on Monday to maintain the contact," the French official said.

Interfax in Ukraine cited Poroshenko as saying he expected a Russian representative to come to Ukraine to discuss his ideas for a settlement plan. He added that he saw "good chances" of it being implemented.

Hollande had invited Poroshenko to Normandy as his personal guest at the last minute in an effort to break the ice between Moscow and Kiev even as fighting continued in eastern Ukraine between government forces and pro-Russian separatists.

The rebels shot down a Ukrainian army plane on Friday and killed a member of the interior ministry's special forces in the separatist stronghold of Slaviansk, where residents said shelling continued all day. (Full Story)

A White House official said Putin and Obama, who had avoided contact with the Russian leader while the two were in Paris on Thursday - also spoke to each other before the lunch.

"President Obama made clear that de-escalation depends upon Russia recognizing President-elect Poroshenko as the legitimate leader of Ukraine, ceasing support for separatists in eastern Ukraine, and stopping the provision of arms and material across the border," deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said.

"If Russia does take this opportunity to recognize and work with the new government in Kiev, President Obama indicated that there could be openings to reduce tensions," he added.

"DEMOCRACY'S BEACHHEAD"

World leaders and veterans paid tribute to soldiers who fell in the liberation of Europe from Nazi German rule, at a series of ceremonies around the Normandy beaches where allied forces landed 70 years ago on June 6, 1944.

Wreaths, parades and parachute-drops honored history's largest amphibious assault, in which 160,000 U.S., British and Canadian troops waded ashore to confront German forces, hastening its defeat and the advent of peace in Europe.

Flanked by stooped war veterans, some in wheelchairs, Obama earlier joined Hollande to commemorate victory and reaffirm U.S-French solidarity before the 9,387 white marble headstones of fallen U.S. soldiers at the Normandy American Cemetery.

It will be the last major commemoration for most of the veterans, most of whom are in their late 80s and 90s.

Obama said the 50-mile (80 km) stretch of Normandy coastline - where allied soldiers landed under fire on beaches codenamed Omaha, Utah, Gold, Sword and Juno - was a "tiny sliver of sand upon which hung more than the fate of a war, but rather the course of human history."

"Omaha - Normandy - this was democracy's beachhead," said Obama. "And our victory in that war decided not just a century, but shaped the security and well-being of all posterity."

The president sought to link the sacrifices of World War Two to U.S. servicemen killed in combat since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States by al Qaeda Islamist militants.

The "9/11 generation of service members" understood that "people cannot live in freedom unless free people are prepared to die for it", he said.

Hollande declared that France "would never forget the solidarity between our two nations, solidarity based on a shared ideal, an aspiration, a passion for freedom".

Twenty-one foreign leaders attended the commemorations, including Britain's Queen Elizabeth and Prime Minister David Cameron, Canada's Stephen Harper as well as Merkel and Putin, whose country suffered the heaviest casualties and struck decisive blows on the eastern front to defeat the Nazis.
 

Aim64C

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That's prolly American propaganda so i'm not going to read anyways.
Propaganda is one of the most vital intelligence sources out there.

It gives you an understanding of where the propagandist believes you are, where they want you to go, and how they think they can get you there.

Most importantly - it lets you know whether or not yours is working.

All of that said...

The history of the region should put a very punctuated context on these 'talks.'

Sarajevo. Most of you are too young to remember it.

Kosovo.

For whatever retarded reason, Americans believe that the leaders of droves of men who twisted into hating each other for the purpose of those very same leaders gaining power, are somehow going to sit down, talk, and convince the angry mobs to go home and stop cleansing each other from existence.

It doesn't work that way. The leaders gained power by victimizing the people and directing their disgruntlement toward a particular group. They have power so long as the problem exists, as long as their people are powerless, and so long as peace is just out of grasp.

That's why Sarajevo lasted longer than the German occupation.

The same thing is going on over in Ukraine. Pro-Russians are stirring the pot by trying to convince Russians that they are discriminated against (and they probably have plenty of ammunition for that) - and Pro-Ukrainians are counter-stirring the pot by saying the Russians are trying to take over and invade (and there is plenty of ammunition for that, as well).

Of course - if they sit down, talk, and admit there's no problem - then there's no reason for leaders who were elected on nationalistic principles to remain in control of people's hearts and minds.

Which is why, historically, the talks are usually just hot air. You can look at them as if they are a sort of debate between presidential candidates in the U.S. Nothing new is said and each side simply rallies behind their goon-in-chief.

America would be wise to give little credence to the effectiveness of 'talks' in that part of the world. There is not a cultural history of talks being effective, and it makes it that much more difficult for them to be effective.

Because at the end of the day - what is going to happen if Russian tanks come rolling all the way to Poland's border?

Will they?

Probably not - Russia knows they can't take The U.S. (NATO) head-on and is not likely to force the point of treaties. If he does anything - it will be to artfully test the blurred boundaries of treaties, like he did in Ukraine. He's not stupid.

That is one reason why I am 'comfortable' with Russia's antics - after thinking about it for a bit. Putin isn't stupid. He may not be my hero or someone I consider the model of masculinity - but he's a pretty sharp cookie and seems to know what he's doing.

That, or we are dealing with a Sum of All Fears type scenario where elements of the Russian military are rogue in their actions in Crimea and Putin does NOT want to appear as if he is not in control of the nation. That is not entirely unlikely, as his internal propaganda tries to make him appear to be the 'alpha male' that would appeal to the cultural concepts of masculinity in Russia. It's mildly possible that we assume he has far more control than he actually does.

Which would be the icing on this whole damned cake, honestly.



Either way - Obama has been less than helpful through this whole affair.

"We will stand by our allies."

"We released these five men... who won't harm our country... to get back our traitor."

.... With allies like that, who the hell needs enemies?

Or comedy sitcoms? Someone should just create a sitcom - "The Oval Office" - and just let Obama continue to think he's the President. Sell tickets to his live performances, let national leaders make guest appearances on his show.... It'd actually be pretty funny, especially if he didn't know he was no longer the President and was just part of the longest running Candid Camera gag ever.

The hilariously sad thing is that it could be done without changing a thing about his 'Presidency.' All the guy does is campaign and tour.
 
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Takure

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Or comedy sitcoms? Someone should just create a sitcom - "The Oval Office" - and just let Obama continue to think he's the President. Sell tickets to his live performances, let national leaders make guest appearances on his show.... It'd actually be pretty funny, especially if he didn't know he was no longer the President and was just part of the longest running Candid Camera gag ever.
Haha, that would be hilarious. I always enjoy reading your posts, they're very insightful and well written.
 
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