Proof that Second Tsuchikage > Fourth Hokage (Actual Explanation Inside)

[Ryuu..]

One of the major difficulties of fighting Muu is that he relies on his invisibility to provide a clear opening for a Jinton technique. It works against most people, because they don't have enough time to physically avoid the blast: they may be able to react, but by then it's too late. So long as Minato catches a glimpse of an attack, he can dodge via FTG. It doesn't matter how much time Minato has to avoid, because he can do so instantaneously. The issue with him is reacting, and I think he can do that with

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. Once Muu's location is revealed, it'll be a downhill battle for him. Minato's the quicker and more skilled fighter, and without his invisibility protecting him, he won't last long.

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. With Minato's reflexes and FTG, I don't see him ever getting hit. Minato will be able to see where Muu is attacking from, that's when he can counter, because lets not forget, Muu must turn visible to attack. He can also use summons to aid him. Gamabunta using water pistol for example, as this is a good long range attack. If Muu wants to waste precious chakra using Jinton on a summon, then that's his problem. Once Minato has pinpointed his location, he could use V2 FTG on a moving kunai to land a Rasengan.

I mean, I have seen speed calculations that place Pain and Sage Mode Naruto at Mach 5+ speeds. They don't even compare to the Raikage, who inturn was bettered by Minato. And to put it simply, Muu has no speed feats.

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against Tobi and the Kyuubi actually suggested that he couldn't even be seen.

We know that Muu would be difficult to sense. But to be fair,

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to Tobi who can't be sensed either. He is also hides his physcal presence (touch), which is why I don't think Muu will hit him especially if he must turn visible to attack via taijutsu.

The only Jinton move which is unlikely to be redirected is the one which captures the target within it. Tobi was able to have time to go in and

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, so there's no chance of Minato dying by it with his S/T ninjutsu.

Even if the situation arises where Mianto runs out of kunai, he can always place seals in the environment, and do so subtely. We saw this when he tagged Killer B without being noticed by both the

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Alternatively, Minato could just Summon Ma & Pa and have them use frog song, as we know someone who has a contract with the chief toad is able to summon all other toads. Minato falls under this catergory.

All in all, i'd this one to Minato, mid - high difficulty.

 

[Maunten]

One of the major difficulties of fighting Muu is that he relies on his invisibility to provide a clear opening for a Jinton technique. It works against most people, because they don't have enough time to physically avoid the blast: they may be able to react, but by then it's too late. So long as Minato catches a glimpse of an attack, he can dodge via FTG. It doesn't matter how much time Minato has to avoid, because he can do so instantaneously. The issue with him is reacting, and I think he can do that with

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. Once Muu's location is revealed, it'll be a downhill battle for him. Minato's the quicker and more skilled fighter, and without his invisibility protecting him, he won't last long.

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. With Minato's reflexes and FTG, I don't see him ever getting hit. Minato will be able to see where Muu is attacking from, that's when he can counter, because lets not forget, Muu must turn visible to attack. He can also use summons to aid him. Gamabunta using water pistol for example, as this is a good long range attack. If Muu wants to waste precious chakra using Jinton on a summon, then that's his problem. Once Minato has pinpointed his location, he could use V2 FTG on a moving kunai to land a Rasengan.

I mean, I have seen speed calculations that place Pain and Sage Mode Naruto at Mach 5+ speeds. They don't even compare to the Raikage, who inturn was bettered by Minato. And to put it simply, Muu has no speed feats.

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against Tobi and the Kyuubi actually suggested that he couldn't even be seen.

We know that Muu would be difficult to sense. But to be fair,

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to Tobi who can't be sensed either. He is also hides his physcal presence (touch), which is why I don't think Muu will hit him especially if he must turn visible to attack via taijutsu.

The only Jinton move which is unlikely to be redirected is the one which captures the target within it. Tobi was able to have time to go in and

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, so there's no chance of Minato dying by it with his S/T ninjutsu.

Even if the situation arises where Mianto runs out of kunai, he can always place seals in the environment, and do so subtely. We saw this when he tagged Killer B without being noticed by both the

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Alternatively, Minato could just Summon Ma & Pa and have them use frog song, as we know someone who has a contract with the chief toad is able to summon all other toads. Minato falls under this catergory.

All in all, i'd this one to Minato, mid - high difficulty.

My arguments for Minato kinda sucked on this thread, I got gama's nature release wrong also, I need some sleep.


+rep for your argument.

 

[SilverSlick]

Hmmm, interesting.

 

[Champ]

I already knew Minato couldn't beat Mu

 

[Negative Knight]

I understand everyone who said that Minato has his summon of Gambunta

But plain and simply Muu could use Jinton and disintegrate him without much difficulty of landing a hit, Gambunta is a massive Toad which held down the Nine tails, im sure he would barely have to aim, same as trying to hit a Chibaku Tensei

 

[Ryuu..]

I understand everyone who said that Minato has his summon of Gambunta

But plain and simply Muu could use Jinton and disintegrate him without much difficulty of landing a hit, Gambunta is a massive Toad which held down the Nine tails, im sure he would barely have to aim, same as trying to hit a Chibaku Tensei

Which then wastes his chakra. Minato is able to summon more than just Gmabunta, so if Muu wants to lower his chakra supply on things like summons then he really is putting himself at an even greater disadvantage.

 

[Rike Senju]

I understand everyone who said that Minato has his summon of Gambunta

But plain and simply Muu could use Jinton and disintegrate him without much difficulty of landing a hit, Gambunta is a massive Toad which held down the Nine tails, im sure he would barely have to aim, same as trying to hit a Chibaku Tensei

Its not only gambunta but the other 2 big toads and ma and pa..wasting jinton on the toads would be a big waste of chakra for muu..also while preparing a jinton to blast the frog could give Minato and opening to an attack.

 

[Negative Knight]

I understand wasting chakra on a summon is a big waste but there's many things Muu can do

1) Use Long Range volleys of Katon attacks to prevent Minato from having time to stand still and form the seals

2) Gradually deplete his FTG Kunai supply, we all know its a limited supply

3) In the case Gambunata gets summoned, Jinton him (forcing him to make a space time barrier) and then prevent any other summons coming through.

Its not likely Muu was the type to stand still like Gaara and let the opponent have unlimited prep time until they chose to attack

 

[Flash]

Well I feel......
1. Yes Muu has good reflexes but ftg is way 2 fast.....(as seen in Minato vs Tobi)

2. If Minato gets trapped inside that dust cube/sphere he can always use ftg to come out of it (like Tobi while saving Sasuke)n b4 Muu can turn him to dust...he'll be out of that

3. Muu can split yes.....but that requires a hell lot a chakra.....

4. Even if Muu can fly.....he's no match for Minato's speed....

5. About intelligence....definitely Muu is very intelligent n has a lot of experience....but even Minato is intelligent.....there is a reason why Minato was named a kage(one reason is that he was a prodigy)....he became a kage when there was already one(the professor).....

6. About having only 3 tsuchikages....Konoha was the first to have the village system....later on the others followed....so you don't know when these people started this system.....n also Minato died very young...so that's the reason why Konoha has 5 kages.....

Ok comming back to the topic....

7. Now as yellowfang said...we've never really seen Minato fight....with the jutsu that has been shown he is in the same league as the chunins(except for ftg)...so I can say that Minato can't be easily defeated by Muu...but I dunno how Minato's gonna defeat him(maybe by sealing him.....cuz I think Muu can afford to be hit by Rassengan atleast once)

8. If Muu keeps flying off high to avoid being attacked by Minato....then even Minato can teleport himself to some safe place where he can avoid Muu...
If the location is a closed placed where you can't run away....then even Muu is in a danger of being hit by ftg...

Now...the only thing that I feel Muu has an advantage over Minato is that the fact he can go invisible....n he's a great sensor ninja.....

Bdw....+rep to you for a good thread...has a lot of work in it

 

[Perp]

I understand everyone who said that Minato has his summon of Gambunta

But plain and simply Muu could use Jinton and disintegrate him without much difficulty of landing a hit, Gambunta is a massive Toad which held down the Nine tails, im sure he would barely have to aim, same as trying to hit a Chibaku Tensei

Gamabunta has shown pretty much anything but being slow. His reaction times are pretty substantial. Immediately catching himself when summoned into a gorge with no idea whats going on, and holding his own against Pain's summons (which is impressive considering how annoying that dog can be).

He's rather quick for a big guy, and Jinton isn't.

And I don't understand your range argument for FTG. Obviously he can go wherever a seal is, and with everything else in a ninjas ridiculous physical resume, I don't think throwing a kunai rather far is out of his league.

 

[Rike Senju]

I understand wasting chakra on a summon is a big waste but there's many things Muu can do

1) Use Long Range volleys of Katon attacks to prevent Minato from having time to stand still and form the seals

2) Gradually deplete his FTG Kunai supply, we all know its a limited supply

3) In the case Gambunata gets summoned, Jinton him (forcing him to make a space time barrier) and then prevent any other summons coming through.

Its not likely Muu was the type to stand still like Gaara and let the opponent have unlimited prep time until they chose to attack

Long rage katons will be dodgeable to Minato and muu himself will see that's a waste of chakra in itself..for the kunais Minato could always pick on up of the ones already on the ground if it comes to him running out of them..and like I said muu using jinton on frog will give an opening for Minato to strike him down.

 

[Pendulum1337]

I'm not certain what element minato uses but it is possible that FTG is a combination of seals and lightning. Is called flying "thunder" god :shrug:

Or perhaps fire as Gamabunta's toad oil with fire was a popular combo with Jiraiya and when Naruto first summoned Gamabunta in a battle Gamabunta automatically assumed Naruto was fire element and asked him to use it in a combo with his toad oil. Only to find out Naruto didn't even know about elements :sy:

Having assumed Naruto was fire element it's possible that Minato was fire and Gamabunta was basing his assumptions on "like father like son principle" or "like mentor like student" or both.

 

[Pendulum1337]

BTW, the long range issue get's wreck by Gamabunta, he has shown to be able to jump higher than I've seen shinboi fly, and Gamabunta's Katon is much large than any shinobi I have seen either.

Muu uses a nature release to fly, and thus Minato can detect this change in chakra.

It would be a tought fight, but Tobi who is harder to detect than Muu, who is harder to hit than Muu, and Tobi who was using a beast that could use powerful long range attacks was still bested.



How can it hide Muu's chakra when Mu uses chakra to deflect the light?

Also if Mu flies the changes in chakra will still expose him.


Oh and

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The Size Of Gamabunta's Katon.


Let's not forget Gama is a gigantic toad able to hold town the yinyang full sized Karuma.

This Katon dwarfs him MANY MANY TIMES OVER.

Gamabunta doesn't have Katon. He used toad oil while Jiraiya added flame to it.

 

[Negative Knight]

Long rage katons will be dodgeable to Minato and muu himself will see that's a waste of chakra in itself..for the kunais Minato could always pick on up of the ones already on the ground if it comes to him running out of them..and like I said muu using jinton on frog will give an opening for Minato to strike him down.

Muu was the Tschuikage of the Earth Country meaning he undoubtely has Large Scale Earth Techniques and was most likely the best earth user of his time/all time

He could first use volleys of Katon (not to such a extent that he is exhausted)

The craters in the ground all around Minato could mean FTG landing points are limited

Then he could use Large Scale Earth Techniques to warp the terrain and trap Minato

e.g. remember when Oonki's Son used the Sandwich technique on Gedo Mazo?

Well its probably in the capacity of Muu to do much more than that to get Minato into a corner. After this there will always be a way to get out, Muu can intercept this with a powerful Katon attack to pre-predict Minato's movement (otherwise he's crushed).

Lol nevermind im getting carried away, but Muu has a lot of techs that he can use

 

[Loome]

you dint consider the summons of minato also the kunai ftg .... please argue all the ablities of the both kages ..... minato cna control the battfield with the summons... and with ftg .... muu has no chance

Ps. minato can sens Muu with his sensory finger or he could just force him with the summons to show himself

Yeah plus we saw minato just for about 10 chapters. he didnt show his whole arsenal yet.
In kakashi gaiden it was stated that this man was feared by all the nations so if someone sees him they should run for their lives xD

 

[natssuu]

Muu and clam guy ended up killing each other, which means they're pretty much equals. Also I wouldn't say that clam guy is the strongest Mizukage, because fourth Mizukage was a perfect jinchuuriki.

 

[ElementNami92]

Personally I like Minato. But I think the Second takes this Mid - High difficulty. I mean how is Minato going to evade someone he cant see?

 

[ShaRinnGan]

well muu has an advantage "invisibility " but still Minato can sense him but that would take a long time and so ill go for muu, he can be invisible+fly and just do Dust release

 

[Sasunarufan13]

This is very interesting. I can't form an opinion on it because usually I stay away from threads like these because it's all theoretical and there are many ways in which a fight can be influenced to benefit one of the two, but I like your explanation. You took the time to explain the tactics of each kage without being biased and even showed how Minato could still win.
Usually threads like these contain a bit of bias of the OP, but I like that you put all different outcomes in it and gave a good explanation

 

[GrimReaperoftheHiddenLeaf]

Oonoki is not the second tsuchikage, muu is, oonoki is the third tsuchikage