oruchimaru
- Thread starter Mei Waxton
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well to be honest I believe he was a very strong opponent.Why do i say this well becouse he took out the previous kazekage& the 3 hokage^^ and they where supposed to be the strongest of their respective Village
So that makes Orochimaru even stronger then them.
Sasuke also admits that the only reason why he won from him was becouse he was already much weaker due to body rotting away& stuff^^..... Correct me if I'm wrong.
But that doesn't mean I liked him, I like mostly all bad guy's cuzz their attitude and/or voice or eyes are cooler then most of the good guy's but Orochimaru's attitude wasn't what I expected nor was his voice/eyes so.....Hell even Kabuto's attitude was more evil then Orochimaru's in my opinion he was just selfish
So that makes Orochimaru even stronger then them.
Sasuke also admits that the only reason why he won from him was becouse he was already much weaker due to body rotting away& stuff^^..... Correct me if I'm wrong.
But that doesn't mean I liked him, I like mostly all bad guy's cuzz their attitude and/or voice or eyes are cooler then most of the good guy's but Orochimaru's attitude wasn't what I expected nor was his voice/eyes so.....Hell even Kabuto's attitude was more evil then Orochimaru's in my opinion he was just selfish
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orochimaru was never a bad guy .... he just was... misunderstood nobody understood his point of view... if they had supported his research ... maybe the would have working ressurection jutsus and working immortality jutsus...
orochimaru must be a genius ...
on the other hand he must suck at shogi... he made so many mistakes ... too bad i hoped he could be like heroes sylar ^^
orochimaru must be a genius ...
on the other hand he must suck at shogi... he made so many mistakes ... too bad i hoped he could be like heroes sylar ^^
^^ it's actually true .. there is no good or bad in naruto .. different points of view thats all ...
orochimaru has always been pointed into the direction of immortality ....
just the way naruto had been forced into the junchuriki role...
that way i'd say there is a certain causality ... plus ... if konoha hadn't cast orochimaru out ... he wouldn't have attacked it... if konoha had supported orochimaru he might not have needet that many people and if orochimaru had originally been from any other hidden village or a danzo controlled konoha ... things would have been different..
orochimaru has always been pointed into the direction of immortality ....
just the way naruto had been forced into the junchuriki role...
that way i'd say there is a certain causality ... plus ... if konoha hadn't cast orochimaru out ... he wouldn't have attacked it... if konoha had supported orochimaru he might not have needet that many people and if orochimaru had originally been from any other hidden village or a danzo controlled konoha ... things would have been different..
Are you serious? The thing that separates Orochimaru from all the other villains is that he is pretty as much as close to 'evil' as there is. He is sadistic in nature. Immortality is unnatural. No one lives forever and any similar technique to have prolonged life have utilized forbidden methods. There's no natural way to cheat death and Orochimaru has been unforgiving in attempting to achieve this. He has killed countless innocents in his 'research'. Babies, women, fellow comrades, you name it. Remember he left the village and not the other way around because he felt his research was more important over human lives.
wasn't he forced out of the village?
plus didn't his research create yamato?
you can't create a monster just to start crying if it tears down a few houses...
i don't think he is evil .. he is about as evil as the borg in startrek .. he has his ambitions and uses pure logic over emotions .. a bit like danzo too ...
he wants to learn every jutsu
question: how .. if your life is so short?
workaround: increase your lifespan
question 2: now you live longer but there are things you can't learn through training
workaround: make yourself capable of learning them
the only reason one would view orochimaru as evil is our morale codex
do you consider animals who eat their newborns for no reason as evil?
without our self induced view of right and wrong and based on a purely logic point of view .. orochimaru would have been a better human ...
its better to make the ones that live immortal than to have to pass down knowledge to the next generation ... immoratlity would make procration unneccesary .. therefore a constant population could be kept and every technical progress would benefit
.. the downside would be that this would also mark the end of evolution
plus didn't his research create yamato?
you can't create a monster just to start crying if it tears down a few houses...
i don't think he is evil .. he is about as evil as the borg in startrek .. he has his ambitions and uses pure logic over emotions .. a bit like danzo too ...
he wants to learn every jutsu
question: how .. if your life is so short?
workaround: increase your lifespan
question 2: now you live longer but there are things you can't learn through training
workaround: make yourself capable of learning them
the only reason one would view orochimaru as evil is our morale codex
do you consider animals who eat their newborns for no reason as evil?
without our self induced view of right and wrong and based on a purely logic point of view .. orochimaru would have been a better human ...
its better to make the ones that live immortal than to have to pass down knowledge to the next generation ... immoratlity would make procration unneccesary .. therefore a constant population could be kept and every technical progress would benefit
.. the downside would be that this would also mark the end of evolution
Well when he started killing his own people, I don't think they'd be welcoming him with open arms. He left because he didn't want to face the consequences.
Yeah I suppose out of 60 babies that were kidnapped, experimented on like guinea pigs with all dying except the one makes Orochimaru a real saint
He didn't 'create' Yamato as he was already born and would had a life without Orochimaru's influence. This was all for one little jutsu. Sounds pretty evil to me.Orochimaru has never cared for anyone but himself and only kept those closest to him for their benefits. Orochimaru's goals were delusional from the get-go and he's never had an end game. Experiment, torture and kill people so that he could continue on his selfish quest for power makes him misunderstood?
Totally different cases. This is all premeditated and every one of his action have been carefully planned and carried out with maleficent intent. There's nothing natural about what's occurred here. You think this would have made Orochimaru a better human? His thirst for power would have had no bounds. How many innocents would be needed to find that 'extra' jutsu. If Orochimaru was a real life person, you wouldn't bat an eyelid about how evil he is but because he is a fictional character, it's simple to condone his actions. Kinda like Nazi's experimenting on prisoners for the 'good' of their research. Had Orochimaru experimented on one of your family members you'd wouldn't be thinking this.
It's not to say I don't like Orochimaru. He represents the 'true' evil in the manga and his appearance signifies that effect. Plus his jutsu's, design and dialogue are interesting but let's not kid ourselves here
well ... you see this is all based on the value of the human life .. to me a human is not worth more than a mouse on the street so if you can stomp that mouse you can kill a human .. none of those actions is more or less evil than the other ..
By the way the only reason the human race could survive is because of it's cruelty ... thats the only aspect that makes us stronger than animals ... we have the power not to care ...
so basically .... there are two different points of view:
the cultural one with its self inflicted moral restrictions
and
the scientific one
scientists always clash with moral at some point of their research ..
and sorry to say this .. real progress has always cost many lives..
dig around a little .. look at how many experiments were needet until penicilin was ready to use
look at how "medical studies" in the middle ages were done...
they just took a few worthless people and cut them up to see how they work ...
the most cruel thing about it? they learned things that the scientists you read about in our books used to develop modern medicine ... but of course .. nobody today want's to read the bitter truth...
even today we base treatments on the cruel experiments of the 3rd reich ...
don't get me wrong .. i am not a fan of cruelty ... as much as I wouldn't kill a mouse I wouldn't kill a human .. yet still .. from a pure logical point of view orochimaru is making a lot of progress with his work ..
it's just like with those storehouse-babies ... some families wanted a second fetus to get some bone marrow ... just to ... discard it afterwards ... thats sick ... but .. sadly .. thats how we humans work!
if you study anthropology you really get to hate humans ^^ the more you read about human behavior the more you see how ridiculus our moral views are.. heck i even read books about initiatives to make homeless people into guineapigs ...
soo ... before you call a fictional character like orochimaru a monster ... look at what your fellow men do everyday ... then and only then you might have the objective view you need to judge
i surely don't know enough about our own race to judge individuals
By the way the only reason the human race could survive is because of it's cruelty ... thats the only aspect that makes us stronger than animals ... we have the power not to care ...
so basically .... there are two different points of view:
the cultural one with its self inflicted moral restrictions
and
the scientific one
scientists always clash with moral at some point of their research ..
and sorry to say this .. real progress has always cost many lives..
dig around a little .. look at how many experiments were needet until penicilin was ready to use
look at how "medical studies" in the middle ages were done...
they just took a few worthless people and cut them up to see how they work ...
the most cruel thing about it? they learned things that the scientists you read about in our books used to develop modern medicine ... but of course .. nobody today want's to read the bitter truth...
even today we base treatments on the cruel experiments of the 3rd reich ...
don't get me wrong .. i am not a fan of cruelty ... as much as I wouldn't kill a mouse I wouldn't kill a human .. yet still .. from a pure logical point of view orochimaru is making a lot of progress with his work ..
it's just like with those storehouse-babies ... some families wanted a second fetus to get some bone marrow ... just to ... discard it afterwards ... thats sick ... but .. sadly .. thats how we humans work!
if you study anthropology you really get to hate humans ^^ the more you read about human behavior the more you see how ridiculus our moral views are.. heck i even read books about initiatives to make homeless people into guineapigs ...
soo ... before you call a fictional character like orochimaru a monster ... look at what your fellow men do everyday ... then and only then you might have the objective view you need to judge
i surely don't know enough about our own race to judge individuals
That's your opinion but at the same time I'd doubt you'd save a animal over another human being if you were put in such a situation. Would you sacrifice your family members if that's what it took to create a cure for X disease? You seem too comfortable to sit on the computer and preach the value of Human life is only high because of our own perceptions and that a 'few worthless people' isn't a big deal to research on but then that's easy to do since you wouldn't know or relate to them right?
Seriously though, you are not relating back any of your points back to the discussion of Orochimaru. Your confusing two very different things. Scientist using immoral and cruel methods in the past for the 'good' of mankind does not compare to Orochimaru's dream to learn all Ninjutsu. Orochimaru himself is a dangerous weapon as he is a powerful ninja and the only real outcome of his quest is that he would have had continued killing and causing mass destruction without remorse. Unless you want to argue that life has no meaning. You seem to think that his research is justified because of it's supposed implications but then your assuming he would be willing to share this information considering he is extremely selfish and immortality is his most desired asset. His methods to achieve immortality wouldn't even be able to be replicated by most individuals anyways. There is no moral dilemma with Orochimaru path of reasoning. He'd kill and torture a family for jutsu information if that's what it meant to further reach his ambition. No one wins but himself and that is what I call evil.
See you've have ignored the point of Orochimaru kidnapping, experimenting and ultimately killing 59 children for one little jutsu by referencing a totally irrelevant and different case. Let me try to make it clear. These children had parents who will never see them again and were taken unwillingly. Orochimaru stole 59 of them. These children were experimented on and injected with an untested and deadly DNA with obviously no consent. 59 of these children who were treated like guinea pigs and ended up killed and discarded and Orochimaru didn't bat an eyelid or show any pity. How you can defend these actions as anything less then evil by calling it 'progress with his work', is madness. This is also arguably the worst case of his actions without mentioning the thousands that he has killed and used to experiment on. How many people would it have needed before he showed a glimmer of evil? Tens of thousands? Hundreds? Maybe a million before you go "Oh, maybe he isn't misunderstood afterall ". Like I said, his 'progress' is learning more destructive jutsu's which in turn would only be used to murder more individuals. You'd have a difficult time arguing his cause if his endgame served as a way to create peace or benefit others but that's certainly not the case here and pretty much the total opposite. It's what separates him from the other pseudo villains and makes him the first and true evil villain of Naruto.
Remember, you suggested that Orochimaru isn't a bad guy and his research is misunderstood whilst I am arguing that is a cop-out and that he is the personification of evil in the Naruto manga.
Seriously though, you are not relating back any of your points back to the discussion of Orochimaru. Your confusing two very different things. Scientist using immoral and cruel methods in the past for the 'good' of mankind does not compare to Orochimaru's dream to learn all Ninjutsu. Orochimaru himself is a dangerous weapon as he is a powerful ninja and the only real outcome of his quest is that he would have had continued killing and causing mass destruction without remorse. Unless you want to argue that life has no meaning. You seem to think that his research is justified because of it's supposed implications but then your assuming he would be willing to share this information considering he is extremely selfish and immortality is his most desired asset. His methods to achieve immortality wouldn't even be able to be replicated by most individuals anyways. There is no moral dilemma with Orochimaru path of reasoning. He'd kill and torture a family for jutsu information if that's what it meant to further reach his ambition. No one wins but himself and that is what I call evil.
See you've have ignored the point of Orochimaru kidnapping, experimenting and ultimately killing 59 children for one little jutsu by referencing a totally irrelevant and different case. Let me try to make it clear. These children had parents who will never see them again and were taken unwillingly. Orochimaru stole 59 of them. These children were experimented on and injected with an untested and deadly DNA with obviously no consent. 59 of these children who were treated like guinea pigs and ended up killed and discarded and Orochimaru didn't bat an eyelid or show any pity. How you can defend these actions as anything less then evil by calling it 'progress with his work', is madness. This is also arguably the worst case of his actions without mentioning the thousands that he has killed and used to experiment on. How many people would it have needed before he showed a glimmer of evil? Tens of thousands? Hundreds? Maybe a million before you go "Oh, maybe he isn't misunderstood afterall ". Like I said, his 'progress' is learning more destructive jutsu's which in turn would only be used to murder more individuals. You'd have a difficult time arguing his cause if his endgame served as a way to create peace or benefit others but that's certainly not the case here and pretty much the total opposite. It's what separates him from the other pseudo villains and makes him the first and true evil villain of Naruto.
Remember, you suggested that Orochimaru isn't a bad guy and his research is misunderstood whilst I am arguing that is a cop-out and that he is the personification of evil in the Naruto manga.
I just can't see where a human life is worth more than the life of any other animal?
plus you still argue about morale and the evilness of that fictional person ..
but in real life you use the work of similar persons everyday ... so many of our products are based on the suffering and ... even extermination of millions of people in the past!
the only difference between orochimaru and a real mad scientist is.... orochimaru admits openly why he does what he does ...
other scientists get nothing but money out of their experiments and still .. they do it ...
there are people abusing africans as guineapigs right now ... testing insufficient amounts of antibiotics on the sick to see how long it takes the bacteria to adapt ... do you think thats ANY different from what that fictional villain is doing?
you know why they do that?
as soon as the bacteria culture is immune to most of our antibiotics, they can start developing a new kind of cure and they get an immense headstart because they caused the mutation in their test subjects and therefore they already have the data on the bacteria ... THATS what our "HELP" in africa often is about!
They kill innocents ... thousands of innocents for money ..
Orochimaru kills innocents for his own power ...
There is no difference so if you can live without calling our pharmaceutical campanies monsters ... well i guess you got my point
Guess we could argue over this for quite some time .. lets just agree on ... In the Nauro Universe .. Orochimaru can be considered a villain whereas in real life.... sad as it may be.... he follows the footsteps of many before him
plus you still argue about morale and the evilness of that fictional person ..
but in real life you use the work of similar persons everyday ... so many of our products are based on the suffering and ... even extermination of millions of people in the past!
the only difference between orochimaru and a real mad scientist is.... orochimaru admits openly why he does what he does ...
other scientists get nothing but money out of their experiments and still .. they do it ...
there are people abusing africans as guineapigs right now ... testing insufficient amounts of antibiotics on the sick to see how long it takes the bacteria to adapt ... do you think thats ANY different from what that fictional villain is doing?
you know why they do that?
as soon as the bacteria culture is immune to most of our antibiotics, they can start developing a new kind of cure and they get an immense headstart because they caused the mutation in their test subjects and therefore they already have the data on the bacteria ... THATS what our "HELP" in africa often is about!
They kill innocents ... thousands of innocents for money ..
Orochimaru kills innocents for his own power ...
There is no difference so if you can live without calling our pharmaceutical campanies monsters ... well i guess you got my point
Guess we could argue over this for quite some time .. lets just agree on ... In the Nauro Universe .. Orochimaru can be considered a villain whereas in real life.... sad as it may be.... he follows the footsteps of many before him
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Got a point there you know we humans where originally also just animals that could only say uhuh ahahahaaa or something like it i guess ..... MONKEYS ^^ so we to r nothing but animals that learned to speak thats all cuzz we r definatly NOT smarter then "animals" these days. Animals tend to keep a natural envirement as "natural" as possible and what do we do we just mindlessly destroy it sooo who is the smartest here
Good thing. I'd dissect that reply of yours but then you'd just reply again etc. and the only thing I enjoy arguing about on NB is the Rinnegan's power. You think his motives are 'justified' because others do the same thing through mass killings (also evil) and I think that Orochimaru is a 'bad guy' and not misunderstood because well, he does what you've been pretty much saying.
SHARINGAN_USER UCHIHA_ITACHI
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I THINK ORO AS bIjJu....!!!! CAUZ HE'S AS DANGEROUS AS bIjJU.....HE FAUGHT NARUTO WITH 4 TAILS.......!!!
HE CAN SEAL HIMSELF IN THE BODY OF OTHER PERSON WITH HIS cUrSe mArK....JUST LIKE HE SEALED HIMSELF IN sAsUkE's bODY........!!!!!!
HE CAN SEAL HIMSELF IN THE BODY OF OTHER PERSON WITH HIS cUrSe mArK....JUST LIKE HE SEALED HIMSELF IN sAsUkE's bODY........!!!!!!
I think Orochimaru is just awesome. He was insanely powerful, taking out both 4th Kazekage and 3rd Hokage in the same day by himself. He also has the ability to summon past Hokage's(including Minato) which, in my opinion, is the best jutsu if used correctly. Only reason Sasuke overcame Orochimaru is because Orochimaru's body was "physically" dead. He was coughing up blood and gasping for air and also trembling when Sasuke decided to break in and attack him. Doesn't take much skill to kill a 50-year old man sitting on his death bed. Plus Sasuke had to use his sharingan AND Curse Mark stage 2 to beat him! He's one of my favorite characters. Mainly cause I LOVE the sannin in general.
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Naruto X Vasto Lorde
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i liked oro.. he was really strong and he had a big arsenal of different jutsu's compared to other characters like...Naruto, who only uses kagebunshi no jutsu.. +oro's fight with the third was epic..