Dont you need an Uchiha to get into the shrine?
There was some seal kind of square rock in front of the entrance.
If not,
than the risks could have been to high to get near a fully populated Konoha without your arms, nor a body to get into after it gets slashed(he used his body transfer on the zetsu right?).
His body transfer could still have been on cooldown.
Even if a body is not needed, than its still dangerous to get there without his arms I think.
You say he survived wounds worse than this, but he said that he needed to be sacraficed, in order for the belly to be cut open, so this wound might have been lot worse than it looked.
Konoha is almost fully abanboned atm.
Getting near it and/or in it, is easier right now.
Do you feel this are good reasons, or not?
Tbh if these reasons fail, than I dont know either why he didnt go sooner
Maybe not wanting people like Sasuke, Kabuto or others to know his plan.
Maybe overconfidence, thinking he could take over Sasuke without arms.
I have something else.
If he took over Sasuke his body, wouldnt it have been quite a waste?
If he went to the shrine as an OroUchiha and get back his arms, than he would have to sacrafice that body right? Or maybe he had some backup plan to maintain the body/sharingan powers and still get his arms.
Hmm I guess its possible the Uchiha shrine might have some significance, but I really don't see how Oro couldn't have done this anywhere. Its just very convenient with the plot for them to be revived there, thats all.
Yeah, I wondered why Orochimaru didn't put the mask on right away when he retrieved it from the Uzumaki shrine. I really do think the Uchiha Shrine serves some sort of purpose, we just dont know it yet.
Hmm I guess its possible the Uchiha shrine might have some significance, but I really don't see how Oro couldn't have done this anywhere. Its just very convenient with the plot for them to be revived there, thats all.
Not leaving Sasuke alone is a good point. Sasuke might get suspicious or go on a rampage if Oro wasn't there for a day or 2, but still, if it was for his arms and his future safety and health, again it would have been worth the risk.
Again about this process costing you your life.... Oro is the perfect candidate to be able to bypass this. We have seen Oro survive grievous wounds and EVEN REGENERATE LIMBS using body shedding. To me, it was obvious he survived the death by body shedding and simply took the body of the Zetsu out of convenience afterward.
The Akatsuki point is potentially a good one, but I think it would be difficult to say that they'd be prepared enough to stop him. Yes Zetsu might have known about his movements and tracked him, but it was not common for Zetsu to provide intel fast enough to save an akatsuki in trouble or prevent and event from happening. I don't think he would have been able to realize soon enough what Oro was up to before he finished what he was doing.
First panel- Right hand side.
Oro says " "But i'll need to be sacrificed for that" .
Ïf oro don't have anybody with him, his soul would be taken by the Reaper. That is why i said that.
To make it more clear, after undoing RDS and performing edo tensei, oro quickly switched his soul with a zetsu soul and that is why the reaper took zetsu's soul with him and oro is still alive.
I saw another thread on this matter and responded to it, but I wanted to bring all my ideas together on the matter and create my own thread on this issue. It ran a little long, so if you want the synopsis, skip to the last paragraph.
My issue is in regard to Oro implementing this plan now, when he clearly could have done it long ago, ie when he was actually alive for the first time. We know for a fact that Oro had this plan all figured out before Sasuke killed him, simply because he took the time to write the whole plan down on a scroll and store it in a secret room that not even Kabuto knew about. He did this all BEFORE Sasuke defeated him. This means he had planned the idea for some time and knew it would be successful if implemented.
Now we can't say for sure if he had this plan in part 1, but I think its safe to saw that he had it ready in early part 2 since he died relatively early in that storyline. So that means Oro had ample time to implement this plan between the start of part 2 and when he planned to take Sasuke's body. So why would he not take the risk of reviving his arms at this time and give himself a much better chance to beat Sasuke if in fact Sasuke resisted? Why would he wait to restore his arms until after taking over Sasuke when he was already in such a weakened state to begin with? To me, there is no logical answer, other than the fact that Kishi was saving this for the war or hadn't come up with the storyline yet. But as a plot-line for Oro, it makes no sense to do this now.
You make a lot of assumptions about how long Orochimaru had this plan available, and how able he would have been at any point to complete it. Remember, this isn't just some thing that he could do any weekend. It involved breaking into a shrine at Konoha to steal a sacred mask of some variety, then performing a ritual that required him to bring along 5 LIVING SACRIFICES, all of whom would likely be trying to fight back. All the while Orochimaru didn't have his own arms, didn't have hardly any sound ninja left, and most of the rest of people on his "team" were laboratory test subjects who were trapped in dungeons and wouldn't have helped him even if he asked.
Let's look at his timeline:
1) Orochimaru loses his arms, his Sound ninja army and his biggest ally (the sand village) after the battle of Konoha.
2) The sound 4 and Kimimaro all died shortly after the failed invasion. This means that Orochimaru's only "real teammate" was Kabuto
3) Orochimaru's first option was to contact Tsunade to try and fix his arms that way. She and Jiraya defeated him and wounded Kabuto, who didn't have super-healing yet.
4) After the battle, Orochimaru finally acquires Sasuke, although Sasuke is not a loyal helper like Kabuto
5) Only AFTER the battle with Tsunade/Jiraya would Orochimaru have started looking for a plan B, and by that time he was busy training Sasuke (and fighting/spying on Akatsuki, and rebuilding after the failed invasion, etc).
Orochimaru didn't even start looking for the plan B until AFTER the end of Part 1, and at that point he didn't have any capability to do it. Konoha would have been too secure until AFTER the invasion of Pain. By that point, Orochimaru was already "dead".
Orochimaru didn't need to research this plan until AFTER Tsunade turned him down. At that point, we don't know HOW LONG IT TOOK Orochimaru to develop the plan. Did he do it that afternoon after coming back to his hideout? Did it take him a week? A month? Three Years? We don't know.
Dont you need an Uchiha to get into the shrine?
There was some seal kind of square rock in front of the entrance.
If not,
than the risks could have been to high to get near a fully populated Konoha without your arms, nor a body to get into after it gets slashed(he used his body transfer on the zetsu right?).
His body transfer could still have been on cooldown.
Even if a body is not needed, than its still dangerous to get there without his arms I think.
You say he survived wounds worse than this, but he said that he needed to be sacraficed, in order for the belly to be cut open, so this wound might have been lot worse than it looked.
Konoha is almost fully abanboned atm.
Getting near it and/or in it, is easier right now.
Do you feel this are good reasons, or not?
Tbh if these reasons fail, than I dont know either why he didnt go sooner
Maybe not wanting people like Sasuke, Kabuto or others to know his plan.
Maybe overconfidence, thinking he could take over Sasuke without arms.
I have something else.
If he took over Sasuke his body, wouldnt it have been quite a waste?
If he went to the shrine as an OroUchiha and get back his arms, than he would have to sacrafice that body right? Or maybe he had some backup plan to maintain the body/sharingan powers and still get his arms.
We already covered most of that. I don't see any indication as to why the Uchiha shrine is needed. He could have summoned the Reaper anywhere, and gotten his arms back. He only needed to get into the Uzumaki building for the mask and thats all. Considering the building was on the outskirts of the village, it was not within the barrier and could have been accessed by him even with a fully populated village. Again, I don't think the body transfer was actually required. He needed to be 'sacrificed' yes, but that's only in terms of his physical body. He would have died if he stayed in his body with that cut. But all he had to do was body shed and survive it, he didn't need to body transfer.
Clearly he was overconfident, yes. But your point is more evidence in my defense. Since he knew about being sacrificed and obviously planned to do this after taking over Sasuke, than yes he must have been able to do it without body transferring again, it only makes sense. Imagine if he did have to sacrifice Sasuke's body to get his arms back, that would be crazy so this helps defend my point.
Again, if it was a matter of people not figuring out his plan, he could have postponed half of the plan. He could always get his arms back asap then revive the Kage later. There was not a need for him to do that right away.
Uhm, I didn't read your entire thread, but the overall premise that Oro should have done this before, is wrong.
The explanation is quite simple. He couldn't
To do this, you needed to give up your body. In other words, you would die by doing it. So you would need to have your "body-take-over-technique" ready. This technique clearly was only usable every 4 year or something like that.
Oro was ready to take over Sasuke, but failed, so he could use this technique now without problems, since it failed the last time. So he simple took over Zetsu's body.
Also thus it can be concluded that Oro didn't know about this method, when he took that other body (the one before Sasuke).
I mean, the answer really is as simple as that. U_U
No, I don't feel that explanation is good enough. Obviously he didn't know about it in part one, but that's not my focus here. As I've said multiple times now, he only needed to body shed to survive that. We have seen him body shed into a new form of his body before:
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He simply took the Zetsu because he was going to have to body transfer at some point anyway. Body shedding would have been enough to save himself there since we have seen it save him from wounds like that before, so its not like he needed to transfer just to survive.
First panel- Right hand side.
Oro says " "But i'll need to be sacrificed for that" .
Ïf oro don't have anybody with him, his soul would be taken by the Reaper. That is why i said that.
To make it more clear, after undoing RDS and performing edo tensei, oro quickly switched his soul with a zetsu soul and that is why the reaper took zetsu's soul with him and oro is still alive.
I don't think you read the chapter right. Oro did not switch his soul, he switched his body. His soul was not taken in the process, only his body since he had to inflict a grievous wound on himself. Everyone is saying that he had to switch bodies to survive, but he didn't. If the 'sacrifice' really included his soul, the reaper would have taken it no matter what, even if he switched bodies. I believe the Zetsu 'soul' you are talking about being switched is not his soul at all, its the soul of one of the kages being forced into it:
You make a lot of assumptions about how long Orochimaru had this plan available, and how able he would have been at any point to complete it. Remember, this isn't just some thing that he could do any weekend. It involved breaking into a shrine at Konoha to steal a sacred mask of some variety, then performing a ritual that required him to bring along 5 LIVING SACRIFICES, all of whom would likely be trying to fight back. All the while Orochimaru didn't have his own arms, didn't have hardly any sound ninja left, and most of the rest of people on his "team" were laboratory test subjects who were trapped in dungeons and wouldn't have helped him even if he asked.
Let's look at his timeline:
1) Orochimaru loses his arms, his Sound ninja army and his biggest ally (the sand village) after the battle of Konoha.
2) The sound 4 and Kimimaro all died shortly after the failed invasion. This means that Orochimaru's only "real teammate" was Kabuto
3) Orochimaru's first option was to contact Tsunade to try and fix his arms that way. She and Jiraya defeated him and wounded Kabuto, who didn't have super-healing yet.
4) After the battle, Orochimaru finally acquires Sasuke, although Sasuke is not a loyal helper like Kabuto
5) Only AFTER the battle with Tsunade/Jiraya would Orochimaru have started looking for a plan B, and by that time he was busy training Sasuke (and fighting/spying on Akatsuki, and rebuilding after the failed invasion, etc).
Orochimaru didn't even start looking for the plan B until AFTER the end of Part 1, and at that point he didn't have any capability to do it. Konoha would have been too secure until AFTER the invasion of Pain. By that point, Orochimaru was already "dead".
Orochimaru didn't need to research this plan until AFTER Tsunade turned him down. At that point, we don't know HOW LONG IT TOOK Orochimaru to develop the plan. Did he do it that afternoon after coming back to his hideout? Did it take him a week? A month? Three Years? We don't know.
You make good points but most of what you are saying I already had an alternate explanation for. Oro could have done the absolute minimal, meaning take his arms back from the Shinigami and go. After releasing the souls, they would have returned to the impure world and thus Oro could have accessed them again at any time. He could have simply gone to the outskirts, taken the mask, perform the ritual there, get his arms back and head home. After he got back, he could have revived the Kage at his own leisure because no one else at that point would have known they were released.
Obviously he had the plan all figured out in part 2 since that is when he died. It should have been top priority for him to implement phase one of the plan asap, instead of waiting.
