[Predictions] One Piece Manga Chapter 856 Discussion and 857 Predictions

[ToshiZO]

I'm assumingyou're talking about Bobbin getting kicked and bruised. If so, do you think Sanji is a fodder since a nameless punch from base Luffy bruised him and knocked him down?

Nah I'm talking about everything down to his bounty.

 

[Hexuze]

Decent chapter but finally we're going somewhere with the end.

 

[Punk Hazard]

This is a legit question how Sanji is going to save Zeff because even after they survive BM's execution ceremony I doubt Vinsmokes are going to free Sanji or Zeff. He can be still be blackmailed to do their bidding after this arc is finished. I think one of the Vinsmokes brother might have brought Zeff in Cake island so that he can black mail Sanji if he tried to escape Cake island.


The whole Cake island was in turmoil few hours back because a certain Rookie defeated one of the BM's commanders & one of the crew member tried to steal Poneglyph but what we see is an enraged army sent to captured Luffy & BM herself coming to that room to solo Brook.
Also we shouldn't forget that it is a wedding so logically all the family members should be present in this arc.



If I remember properly certain fodders(Nami soloed them) saw jinbei and Nami escaping that prison thing. I know they fear BM but they need to report this to that book guy(dont u think).

Not sure. There seems to be a running theme in Big Mom's family that a lot of them are too scared of her to do what they should be doing one way or another. I think that's what's happening here again.

 

[Itachi Minato]

To all the people who said luffy wouldnt fight big mom this arc get ready to be wrong!

You all wanted the strawhats to turn and run like dogs because luffy had a hard time with cracker and yall stupid logic wanted luffy to be scared of big mom for that reason smh.

well guess what?? Luffy isnt scared of a yonko & he is going to wreck the wedding hahahahah!!!

Thankyou oda!!

If Luffy defeats BM it's still poor writing. Not that he's given any indication he's going to beat her. He doesn't have to beat her to ruin the wedding, save the vinsmokes and escape. All I will say regarding sanji is that he has disappointed me. I did like his first reason tho. He's standing by when he agreed with Zoro regarding Ussop.

 

[chopstickchakra]

If Luffy defeats BM it's still poor writing. Not that he's given any indication he's going to beat her. He doesn't have to beat her to ruin the wedding, save the vinsmokes and escape. All I will say regarding sanji is that he has disappointed me. I did like his first reason tho. He's standing by when he agreed with Zoro regarding Ussop.

So the future PK laying ground work and defeating the top seated pirates of his generation is "poor writing"? Or by poor writing do you mean not how you wanted it to happen? See there's a difference between the two. It's not poor writing to have the MC pass over the obstacles in his way to the top personally. It'd be "poorer writing" to have the MC get his goal while others cleared his path for him. He already managed to avoid having to take out WB, no one expects him to fight Shanks, Kaidou's claim is in 1v1v always bet on Kaido, now you want him to dodge BM? So you want Luffy to reach PK without taking out a Yonkou? Except for BB, of course. And that's "good" writing to you?

 

[Punk Hazard]

So the future PK laying ground work and defeating the top seated pirates of his generation is "poor writing"? Or by poor writing do you mean not how you wanted it to happen? See there's a difference between the two. It's not poor writing to have the MC pass over the obstacles in his way to the top personally. It'd be "poorer writing" to have the MC get his goal while others cleared his path.

It's poor writing because Luffy needed help to barely beat someone weaker than Big Mom.

It's poor writing because it's the same old thing as always when Oda has been setting up a potential storyline that would capitalize on the world building better AND be something new in the manga.

 

[Dannie]

So the future PK laying ground work and defeating the top seated pirates of his generation is "poor writing"? Or by poor writing do you mean not how you wanted it to happen? See there's a difference between the two. It's not poor writing to have the MC pass over the obstacles in his way to the top personally. It'd be "poorer writing" to have the MC get his goal while others cleared his path for him. He already managed to avoid having to take out WB, no one expects him to fight Shanks, Kaidou's claim is in 1v1v always bet on Kaido, now you want him to dodge BM? So you want Luffy to reach PK without taking out a Yonkou? Except for BB, of course. And that's "good" writing to you?

Quick question: What exactly does Luffy have NOW that can defeat BM?

I seriously want to know why people are so hell bent or excited by the thought of Luffy defeating BM when we have seen what he could do against Cracker, and how you think him just defeating BM without any new level of power, in anyway is considered good or "original" writing.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Quick question: What exactly does Luffy have NOW that can defeat BM?

I seriously want to know why people are so hell bent or excited by the thought of Luffy defeating BM when we have seen what he could do against Cracker, and how you think him just defeating BM without any new level of power, in anyway is considered good or "original" writing.

Dude didn't you hear? Seeing Luffy do the exact same thing as always, even when it makes no sense and betrays world building, is better than seeing new, expansive storylines.

 

[RJ22BIG]

This has been drawn on way to long it's seriously over kill this one night in one piece has been around 8 chapter long and yet we still aren't at the ceremony. This stuff could've easily been skipped over like the luffy cracker fight or even given to us via flash back. The pacing has been god awful I hope to god that this slow pacing is used for the fights because that's the only way to make up for this. All in all pretty weak chapter.

 

[Bogard]

Lmao Oda ended up totally crushing the Bobbin character when he had such a badass vibe in fishmen island. And as expected Oda gave Sanji his "i wanna live" moment. It's crazy to which length Oda is willing to go when it comes down to Luffy. Rince and repeat

 

[David1996]

Hope Oda doesn't drag this any further, his breaks are bad enough.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Quick question: What exactly does Luffy have NOW that can defeat BM?

I seriously want to know why people are so hell bent or excited by the thought of Luffy defeating BM when we have seen what he could do against Cracker, and how you think him just defeating BM without any new level of power, in anyway is considered good or "original" writing.

I didn't say Luffy alone would beat her did I? So asking what he has to beat her is redundant. He has 2 armies, a crew member with an inherent advantage over her DF Homies(a good chunk of her crew from what we've seen) and we got a hint when she killed her son her ability to take souls relies on fear of her which Luffy will have none. I would consider it good because it's the ground work Oda has laid and to divert from it would be a waste.

None of you can explain how it's technically "bad" writing for the main character to clear the obstacles in their path. In your opinions it's better writing to have someone else completely unrelated with the MC clear his obstacles for him. What you all call "poor" writing is how you describe an author taking a path you wouldn't have chose or didn't want to see.

You say we're hell bent but it's the BM vs Kaidou would be so much better story telling group that's pushing an idea. I'm gauging what's likely to happen off what's currently happening, they're crying for a fight that may not happening and calling anything besides it bad story telling. Yes Kaidou wants Caesar and yes BM has him but we don't know that Kaidou's ever even going to find out, yet you all treat it as fact he will and will come for him when he does and will have a fight with BM for him. We've seen Yonkou aren't big on fighting with WB/Shanks and Kaidou/Shanks so you're all ruling out negotiations too soon. BM could just tell Kaidou "OK, give me a few months for him to make my giants then he's all yours for your Smiles" but again it's not what you all want to see so it's "poor writing" even though it's a perfectly reasonable way the interaction could go given the instances we've seen of Yonkou meetings.

Dude didn't you hear? Seeing Luffy do the exact same thing as always, even when it makes no sense and betrays world building, is better than seeing new, expansive storylines.

You're expansive story lines have the future PK not defeating a single Yonkou on his way there. Yeah great story telling abilities I see why WSJ's looking to bring you in.

It's poor writing because Luffy needed help to barely beat someone weaker than Big Mom.

It's poor writing because it's the same old thing as always when Oda has been setting up a potential storyline that would capitalize on the world building better AND be something new in the manga.

And he'll have help beating BM too, so again how is it bad writing for the MC to defeat an enemy that stands in his way of his goal?

So it's poor writing because you think there's a better choice, got ya. What happens past that possible conflict? Maybe this instance sets up something else? No, Oda wouldn't do anything like that though. BM will definitely have to fight Kaidou because of Caesar, it's not like people can negotiate and it's not like we have precedent of Yonkou's being hesitant to fight one another.

 

[Punk Hazard]

I didn't say Luffy alone would beat her did I? So asking what he has to beat her is redundant. He has 2 armies, a crew member with an inherent advantage over her DF Homies(a good chunk of her crew from what we've seen) and we got a hint when she killed her son her ability to take souls relies on fear of her which Luffy will have none. I would consider it good because it's the ground work Oda has laid and to divert from it would be a waste.

None of you can explain how it's technically "bad" writing for the main character to clear the obstacles in their path. In your opinions it's better writing to have someone else completely unrelated with the MC clear his obstacles for him. What you all call "poor" writing is how you describe an author taking a path you wouldn't have chose or didn't want to see.

You say we're hell bent but it's the BM vs Kaidou would be so much better story telling group that's pushing an idea. I'm gauging what's likely to happen off what's currently happening, they're crying for a fight that may not happening and calling anything besides it bad story telling. Yes Kaidou wants Caesar and yes BM has him but we don't know that Kaidou's ever even going to find out, yet you all treat it as fact he will and will come for him when he does and will have a fight with BM for him. We've seen Yonkou aren't big on fighting with WB/Shanks and Kaidou/Shanks so you're all ruling out negotiations too soon. BM could just tell Kaidou "OK, give me a few months for him to make my giants then he's all yours for your Smiles" but again it's not what you all want to see so it's "poor writing" even though it's a perfectly reasonable way the interaction could go given the instances we've seen of Yonkou meetings.

We've all explained how it would be bad writing. For one thing, you keep strawmanning the living **** out of us by saying we said "the main character clearing obstacles is bad writing." No one ever said that in this or any thread. Stop using that phrase.

What was said was that Oda has set up a potential storyline that would be:

1. New to the series of One Piece, with nothing like it happening before

2. Different from the usual formula of The Luffy Show

3. Capitalizes on world building more than Luffy taking out Big Mom in this arc would.

If you argue, address how those three points are not the better alternative to the story instead of twisting words for your strawmanning.

None of us know whether or not Kaido knows about Caesar, but do you really think it's impossible for Kaido to find out about him at ANY point of the story? You think it's impossible for Big Mom to find out Caesar's connection to Kaido? Because that's the only way "hur dur they dunno" has any relevance.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Let's clear something up for the record. Zeff's life isn't actually in danger, Sanji may not know this yet(Really he should though since Reiju told him it was only his family threatening Zeff and not BM) but we the readers do so bringing that up as an excuse still doesn't play.

Let's recap;

Vinsmokes got intel on Zeff from BM to hold over Sanji for the wedding. If Sanji left WCI right now, his family dies in the morning and Zeff is spared because BM doesn't actually care about the marriage or Sanji or Zeff she cares about the Vinsmokes. If Sanji saves his family and breaks up the wedding then the Vinsmokes learn of the betrayal and have no reason to hold Zeff's life over Sanji's head. If he goes through with the "wedding" he and his family die, Zeff is spared and even if he weren't Sanji would be dead(This is blatantly the dumbest choice of the three)

So regardless which action Sanji had chosen, Zeff would be fine.

 

[Punk Hazard]

You're expansive story lines have the future PK not defeating a single Yonkou on his way there. Yeah great story telling abilities I see why WSJ's looking to bring you in.

And who said that Luffy has to be the one to defeat all four Emperors? Or are we approaching the Naruto and Dragon Ball Z style of writing where we introduce a plethora and world of characters and throw them away so one handful of characters get the spotlight? That's better writing than fleshing out an entire world of interesting and powerful characters? It's better writing to stick to a lazy cliche than try to do something different and not waste scores of characters? You'd rather see the same story for the 101st time of the unstoppable main character as opposed to an intricate world where every important character matters?

And he'll have help beating BM too, so again how is it bad writing for the MC to defeat an enemy that stands in his way of his goal?

Obviously the notion of Luffy defeating Big Mom being inconsistent applies to Luffy vs Big Mom in a one on one, as people like LBeezy and Mystikk has suggested in other threads, NOT to a group fight versus Big Mom.

@Bold: Shut the hell up with that shit that nobody ever said

So it's poor writing because you think there's a better choice, got ya.

B**** yes? How is this a serious question lmao "So you think this thing is bad because you think there's something that's much, much better?" Stop asking me stupid questions, mane.

What happens past that possible conflict? Maybe this instance sets up something else? No, Oda wouldn't do anything like that though. BM will definitely have to fight Kaidou because of Caesar, it's not like people can negotiate and it's not like we have precedent of Yonkou's being hesitant to fight one another.

We also have precedence of both Big Mom and Kaido refusing to negotiate when it comes to their ultimate goals. We also have precedence of Big Mom and Kaido wanting to fight other Emperors. Try again for a Zeni?

 

[Dannie]

Lets not change the original plot of the story. Let's just do what we have been doing for 800 chapters and not have anything new happen and just keep letting Luffy fight all the main villains since "he needs to clear his own path" and do everything himself.

 

[Love Cook]

We've all explained how it would be bad writing. For one thing, you keep strawmanning the living **** out of us by saying we said "the main character clearing obstacles is bad writing." No one ever said that in this or any thread. Stop using that phrase.

What was said was that Oda has set up a potential storyline that would be:

1. New to the series of One Piece, with nothing like it happening before

2. Different from the usual formula of The Luffy Show

3. Capitalizes on world building more than Luffy taking out Big Mom in this arc would.

If you argue, address how those three points are not the better alternative to the story instead of twisting words for your strawmanning.

None of us know whether or not Kaido knows about Caesar, but do you really think it's impossible for Kaido to find out about him at ANY point of the story? You think it's impossible for Big Mom to find out Caesar's connection to Kaido? Because that's the only way "hur dur they dunno" has any relevance.

It is bad writing if Luffy doesn't punch every villain in every arc in the face on the road to hokage. Err Pirate King !

 

[chopstickchakra]

We've all explained how it would be bad writing. For one thing, you keep strawmanning the living **** out of us by saying we said "the main character clearing obstacles is bad writing." No one ever said that in this or any thread. Stop using that phrase.

You don't need to say things verbatim to have said the context. The issue is Luffy beating a Yonkou and you call it bad writing. If you don't like how my words sound when breaking down your stance then maybe you need to re-evaluate your stance.

What was said was that Oda has set up a potential storyline that would be:

1. New to the series of One Piece, with nothing like it happening before

We don't even know how that story line would play out. There's no guarantee they'd even fight each other. You're judging the quality of work given to us based on your hopes for the future. Logic.

2. Different from the usual formula of The Luffy Show

The book is the Luffy show, you're literally complaining about a MC getting MC treatment. Not to mention we know the book is over 50% done it's time to start reaching the conclusion. Would it be nicer if we could keep getting depth and branching stories, sure but just because what we get isn't what you want doesn't make it bad writing if it still plays on with the story before it and after it.

3. Capitalizes on world building more than Luffy taking out Big Mom in this arc would.

Again stating your own opinion as fact. We don't know what any of the repercussions would be if BM fell this arc, we have no idea of the impact that may have on the story in the next few arcs or even in the last arc.

If you argue, address how those three points are not the better alternative to the story instead of twisting words for your strawmanning.

Whether it's better or not is subjective and even if it were unanimously better to go that route that doesn't automatically delegate the other stories as bad, just not as good. Pnjectively it's still good writing because it's following the path laid by the author since the beginning. As for that instance itself, it may not even be as good as you think, it's essentially a one off because what real lasting impacts could Kaidou v BM have when the SH's don't even really care what happens to Caesar anymore? You call it better but what real impact would it bring to the story for Kaidou or BM to take out the other? That just leaves a vaccuum, if BM falls now, it can help push Luffy along the PK line or Capone can take credit and set up something for him. Yonkou's are teh last gen, the Noca are more important in the future as they'll be the new big names on the seas so developing Novas over yonkous would be better for the story in the long run.

None of us know whether or not Kaido knows about Caesar, but do you really think it's impossible for Kaido to find out about him at ANY point of the story? You think it's impossible for Big Mom to find out Caesar's connection to Kaido? Because that's the only way "hur dur they dunno" has any relevance.

I never said he wouldn't I said we can't know if he will those aren't equivalent statements and even if they do meet over Caesar there's no guarantee your wet-dream match will even happen. Every instance we have of two Yonkou meeting contradicts your theory even. The only Yonkou we've seen willing to clash is BB.

And who said that Luffy has to be the one to defeat all four Emperors? Or are we approaching the Naruto and Dragon Ball Z style of writing where we introduce a plethora and world of characters and throw them away so one handful of characters get the spotlight? That's better writing than fleshing out an entire world of interesting and powerful characters? It's better writing to stick to a lazy cliche than try to do something different and not waste scores of characters? You'd rather see the same story for the 101st time of the unstoppable main character as opposed to an intricate world where every important character matters?

How is it throwing away anything when the only two characters involved in your angle would still be involved just not in a story together? How is it not throwing away characters to not develop the Nova's, you know the group presented as the ones to keep around Luffy going forward? BM could fall through a joint effort and Capone could snake the credit, but you'd rather throw them away in favor of the Yonkou fighting each other, even though the Yonkou will definitely be involved later. Who's really throwing away characters?

Obviously the notion of Luffy defeating Big Mom being inconsistent applies to Luffy vs Big Mom in a one on one, as people like LBeezy and Mystikk has suggested in other threads, NOT to a group fight versus Big Mom.

@Bold: Shut the hell up with that shit that nobody ever said

Are you arguing with either of them right now? Also L hasn't been talking 1 on 1 since that bet thread was made more than a couple weeks ago. But this isn't about him so leave your feelings about his posts out of your replies.

B**** yes? How is this a serious question lmao "So you think this thing is bad because you think there's something that's much, much better?" Stop asking me stupid questions, mane.

Yeah that's not how it really works, only to petty people. Hockey is better than football but football's not bad, The Beatles are better than Weezer but Weezer's not bad. Better is a subjective term, good and bad are objective, just because something's better doesn't make it's alternative bad. You haven't proved how it's bad writing just how it's not the writing you want.

We also have precedence of both Big Mom and Kaido refusing to negotiate when it comes to their ultimate goals. We also have precedence of Big Mom and Kaido wanting to fight other Emperors. Try again for a Zeni?

Really? Like how you swear Kaidou negotiated with Shanks not to go to MF?

 

[Love Cook]

Well my reason for Luffy not beating Big Mom after this chapter is that Luffy always makes the promise I'M GOING TO KICK YOUR ASS ! or he makes the damsel in distress ask for it like Rebecca and Doffy, Nami and Arlong. He always makes the promise to take them down and he never fails that promise.

This chapter Sanji asked to crash the party, and Luffy promised to crash the party. No promise of Big Mom ass kicking.

Spoiler

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[Punk Hazard]

You don't need to say things verbatim to have said the context. The issue is Luffy beating a Yonkou and you call it bad writing. If you don't like how my words sound when breaking down your stance then maybe you need to re-evaluate your stance.

Nope. Quit the bullshitting. You know that's not our argument, and you're not using "not making it verbatim," since you keep arguing te point of the main character stopping his obstacles, when no one has said that's a problem. The bold is exactly what I'm talking about. No one said that Luffy defeating an Emperor is bad writing. Get the hell outta here.

We don't even know how that story line would play out. There's no guarantee they'd even fight each other. You're judging the quality of work given to us based on your hopes for the future. Logic.

Who said that they are guaranteed to fight? Hold on, lemme go re-read my posts real quick...

It's poor writing because Luffy needed help to barely beat someone weaker than Big Mom.

It's poor writing because it's the same old thing as always when Oda has been setting up a potential storyline that would capitalize on the world building better AND be something new in the manga.

We've all explained how it would be bad writing. For one thing, you keep strawmanning the living **** out of us by saying we said "the main character clearing obstacles is bad writing." No one ever said that in this or any thread. Stop using that phrase.

What was said was that Oda has set up a potential storyline that would be:

Yup, just like I said, more strawmanning.

I'm judging the POTENTIAL of a FUTURE storyline in comparison to the POTENTIAL of another FUTURE storyline, and saying that one would be better writing than the other. There is no fault here, since I'm not saying anything about the CURRENT storyline's quality.

The book is the Luffy show, you're literally complaining about a MC getting MC treatment.

Yes, because One Piece is not set up like series that do this. Luffy does get MC treatment, but it's never to the point that the extensive world of side characters introduced become irrelevant and obsolete. The idea of Luffy being the only one who should defeat the Emperors DOES render them irrelevant and obsolete because it says that only Luffy can do the important things. Oda does not 100% avoid the main character trope, but he has never succumbed to it on a level like Naruto and Dragon Ball Z has, and I'd like for the writing to continue that trend. Luffy defeating the Emperors by himself would NOT be following the trend Oda has set up. Luffy does not need to be the one to defeat all four Emperors to show his superiority to them.

Not to mention we know the book is over 50% done it's time to start reaching the conclusion. Would it be nicer if we could keep getting depth and branching stories, sure but just because what we get isn't what you want doesn't make it bad writing if it still plays on with the story before it and after it.

The bolded has never been the basis of my argument. Again, quit the strawman bullshit.

Again stating your own opinion as fact. We don't know what any of the repercussions would be if BM fell this arc, we have no idea of the impact that may have on the story in the next few arcs or even in the last arc.

WHAT? I have never said my opinion is fact, I am simply using facts to argue my opinion. That is what a debate is.

Explain to me how establishing relevance and importance for side characters and then throwing away that importance so Luffy can do it all ISN'T wasting world building. Go ahead, I'll wait as long as you need to take.

Whether it's better or not is subjective and even if it were unanimously better to go that route that doesn't automatically delegate the other stories as bad, just not as good

The writing would be bad because of the level of wasting it would be and how largely cliche it would be. There are OBJECTIVE aspects to writing as well. Following cliches and doing the same thing a 100 stories have done in the past is OBJECTIVELY lazy writing.

Pnjectively it's still good writing because it's following the path laid by the author since the beginning.

Except it doesn't, but it detracts from the path of "This world matters, these characters matter, it's not just Luffy's story." THAT'S what Oda has laid since the beginning, NOT this story of "It's Luffy, it's all Luffy, it's all about Luffy." Luffy might be the central and most important character, but Oda has never made that path by establishing other characters as important, and then wasting that importance.

As for that instance itself, it may not even be as good as you think, it's essentially a one off because what real lasting impacts could Kaidou v BM have when the SH's don't even really care what happens to Caesar anymore?You call it better but what real impact would it bring to the story for Kaidou or BM to take out the other?

And this right here is exactly the problem. You're thinking of this story narrowly, and only looking at it as "The Strawhats." It is NOT. There is an entire world around them that is also supposed to be important. It has been stressed time and time and time again that the balance of the three powers is something that is CRITICALLY important to the world as a whole. Big Mom and Kaido taking each other out and throwing that balance completely off of its hinges(not coincidentally at the same time that Fujitora is leading a charge against the failing Shichibukai system, another key aspect of the Balance) means repercussions would be felt across the ENTIRE WORLD OF ONE PIECE. But no, that's not quite as cool and interesting as "What's gonna happen to Luffy," right?

Oh, I suppose we're also going to pretend that the Strawhats being in the middle of such a thing wouldn't lead to repercussions on them anyways. So in my way, we can have drastic worldwide repercussions AND repercussions on the Strawhats for being the catalysts that cause such a thing. What does your bullshit bring to the table?

That just leaves a vaccuum, if BM falls now, it can help push Luffy along the PK line or Capone can take credit and set up something for him. Yonkou's are teh last gen, the Noca are more important in the future as they'll be the new big names on the seas so developing Novas over yonkous would be better for the story in the long run.

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b--b-b-b-b--b-b-b-b-b--but this is Luffy's sotry who cares about the Sooparnovahs, it's all aboot LOOFY!

I never said he wouldn't I said we can't know if he will those aren't equivalent statements and even if they do meet over Caesar there's no guarantee your wet-dream match will even happen. Every instance we have of two Yonkou meeting contradicts your theory even. The only Yonkou we've seen willing to clash is BB.

So we're gonna ignore that Kaido has challenged the other Emperors in the past and was about to go attack Whitebeard? That Big Mom is actively planning to challenge the four Emperors and did so in the past?

Really? Like how you swear Kaidou negotiated with Shanks not to go to MF?

Since when was going to MF Kaido's ultimate goal chopstick? Oh yeah, my bad, I remember Kaido teaming up with Doffy and crying because his dream was to go to Marineford, right? Damn what a joke.