Obito's Realism Vs Naruto's Idealism

[Avani]

I doubt they would have died since they were connected the God Tree's life energy like old Madara was. In which case Obito's plan had its merits, but like I said on the first page he went at it in an idiotic way.

IT user drained them when they needed more chakra. With passage of time, people trapped in lose their original personality and other features and become Zetsu.

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Not all of them came out of the cocoons without any harm at the end of war. Just look how old Iruka looks in the last chapter.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

IT user drained them when they needed more chakra. With passage of time, people trapped in lose their original personality and other features and become Zetsu.

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Not all of them came out of the cocoons without any harm at the end of war. Just look how old Iruka looks in the last chapter.

And we all know that was a last minute retcon to make IT more evil.

 

[Avani]

And we all know that was a last minute retcon to make IT more evil.

It doesn't even matter whether it was a retcon or not or what purpose it was added in, since the story was ongoing and it became part of it. Retcon simply means adding a new piece of information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events- it can be used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or to fix an inconsistency. So once a piece of information is there, it becomes one of the facts in the story and thus Obito's solution would have ultimately lose themselves and kill them.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

It doesn't even matter whether it was a retcon or not or what purpose it was added in, since the story was ongoing and it became part of it. Retcon simply means adding a new piece of information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events- it can be used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or to fix an inconsistency. So once a piece of information is there, it becomes one of the facts in the story and thus Obito's solution would have ultimately lose themselves and kill them.

Except that wasn't Obito's solution since he didn't know about that. And that retcon pretty shows that there was indeed some merit in Obito's solution, otherwise there would have been no change.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Naruto for me.

 

[Ansatsuken]

If you live as a slave and being tortured do you call that freedom?Without war there is no freedom.Madara wanted to steal peoples will and he wanted their powers(the real reason why he went for M.T)Freedom and slavery are different just as reality and fiction is...
People like Madara are losers.

You support Naruto and then you agree with IT. Make up your mind dude.

You're all over the place since joined this site.

 

[Avani]

Except that wasn't Obito's solution since he didn't know about that. And that retcon pretty shows that there was indeed some merit in Obito's solution, otherwise there would have been no change.

You want to see merit in that solution that's fine but that doesn't change the fact that it's still escapism even if you are in a genjutsu till you die. Its a vegetable life similar to people in coma who never wake up. Madara did die of old age at one point despite being attached to the tree. So I have no reason to believe that these people will not die anyway- whether by morphing in to Zetsu or just be dirt.

Whether Obito was able to put two and two together or not doesn't change these fact. Him not knowing or not trying to find out more or whether he knew and was ok with that- all three scenarios are equally bad. A realist should be paying more attention. He would have been the lonely guy sitting beside a hanging graveyard till he went completely insane.

 

[Honord Sage]

Obito was selling a dream not realism if anybody was idealistic it was Obito. Running away from reality to dream till you die, now thats Idealistic.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

You want to see merit in that solution that's fine but that doesn't change the fact that it's still escapism even if you are in a genjutsu till you die. Its a vegetable life similar to people in coma who never wake up. Madara did die of old age at one point despite being attached to the tree. So I have no reason to believe that these people will not die anyway- whether by morphing in to Zetsu or just be dirt.

Whether Obito was able to put two and two together or not doesn't change these fact. Him not knowing or not trying to find out more or whether he knew and was ok with that- all three scenarios are equally bad. A realist should be paying more attention. He would have been the lonely guy sitting beside a hanging graveyard till he went completely insane.

Madara only died because he disconnected himself from the tree.

Yes, it's escapism. I never denied that, nor am I saying Obito was in the right. He was clearly in the wrong, mainly because how he went at it. But the idea did have merits like ending death, hungry, and giving eternal happiness. There were a lot of readers that found the idea appealing.

 

[TenseiganFTW]

You support Naruto and then you agree with IT. Make up your mind dude.

You're all over the place since joined this site.

I never supported MT

 

[Avani]

Madara only died because he disconnected himself from the tree.

Yes, it's escapism. I never denied that, nor am I saying Obito was in the right. He was clearly in the wrong, mainly because how he went at it. But the idea did have merits like ending death, hungry, and giving eternal happiness. There were a lot of readers that found the idea appealing.

Madara was still wrinkled and decaying no matter what was the immediate cause of death. Tree hadn't stopped his aging. He just might have found himself "too thin and stretched " or exist just as a voice like Sybil one of these days if didn't detach himself voluntarily.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Madara was still wrinkled and decaying no matter what was the immediate cause of death. Tree hadn't stopped his aging. He just might have found himself "too thin and stretched " or exist just as a voice like Sybil one of these days if didn't detach himself voluntarily.

He summoned the Gedo Mazo when he was already an old fart and on the verge of death.

 

[synkross]

WELL, HERE WE ARE AGAIN....I'M SIMPLY GOING TO COPY/PASTE THE 1ST EVER THREAD I MADE ON THIS TOPIC...ENJOY

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Alright, i wanted to make this thread to hear the opinions on this matter.

1st off, by now it is clear that Obito is sincere to his goal and if he gets to complete the plan then he will make everyone's wishes come true......(i don't really trust Madara on this, he might just make himself king or something lolz)

Now, from Obito's prespective he wants to achieve heaven(Dream world) and take everyone to heaven with him.
a world of winners and all, where everyone will be happy.....
Ok, here naruto and others disagreed with him because they said that it will be a fake happiness and not reality cuz true happiness is meaningful only if achieved in real world.

Now, i don't see this logic(maybe i'm wrong) but..how do you define reality?
as Itachi said,'Reality is only what you believe to be true and real'.....you can also say that it's a feeling.
like if you are in a dream....you feel it as the reality untill you wake up, only then you can differentiate between dream and reality, but what if you never wake up?

yes, then that dream will be your reality....e.g that is what was shown in Matrix, if Anderson never knew about it he would just have been living happily in what he considers reality.

i think you get my point, so how can Naruto and the others say it won't be real if they never know and the jutsu ends only in their death. they would just be living happily without knowing that they are in a dream cuz they'll never wake up.

Now, you may say that this happiness won't be real but happiness is only a feeling and has nothing to do with reality.
if they can get that feeling in the dream world for the rest of their lives then what's the problem??

Well, that is all i have to say.....i'll be glad to hear your thoughts on this.

Oh and i'm just talking about the anime lolz don't flame me by saying that drugs also make you fly but kill you .....i'm just talking about the scenerio in anime
(WRITTEN ON DEC 15, 2012)
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[Avani]

He summoned the Gedo Mazo when he was already an old fart and on the verge of death.

Source for that claim? What was he waiting for?

 

[Magnolius]

Being that the creator of this thread is a realist himself, I sense a tone of bias in the OP.


OT: Ignorance is Bliss.

 

[LeSauce]

Neither of them. One made temporary peace, and the other would have just been a fake reality.

Pains and Sasuke's ideals were much more realistic than Obito's.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Source for that claim? What was he waiting for?

Read the last panel and next page.

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[Yatori]

It is fake vs real. Easy naruto FTW.

 

[Avani]

Read the last panel and next page.

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Oh yea. Thanks.

But the idea did have merits like ending death, hungry, and giving eternal happiness. There were a lot of readers that found the idea appealing.

So back to the fate of IT victims- Madara believed he was the one doing everything when he was tricked by BZ. The Zetsus he thought he created all by himself were actually only modified version( because of senju cell addition) of people

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and now released by BZ. They all got the same personality of the original white Zetsu and had no traces left of their individual former self. That means at some point the original people were completely gone even if they existed in some form- their dreams, their wishes their feeling being preserved - the idea was just a myth.

When the IT broke only those people came out who were trapped recently and hadn't morphed yet. Whether we could technically call the older ones dead or not maybe questionable-but they were not the same life form anymore, let alone same person. They became white Zetsu and then became trees...( if not fallen to black fire). So where is that eternal happiness? Just eternal sleep apparently.

The idea of a relative painless death while in sleep and dreaming happy thoughts has some attraction but most people want it only when they are really dying. Everybody dying will get an eternal peace.. but I don't think we all really want that. :shrug:

 

[~Ethereal~]

I will go with Naruto, since Obito makes me sick to the stomach.