That isn't what I meant. You could coordinate and work with anyone you know. But to work suddenly with a stranger is too weird, like "Hey! I just met you but this is crazy, so here's my jutsu, lets coordinate maybe." XD
Minato had met Tobirama for the first time still showed perfect teamwork, both used FTG but to use them so coordinated is not natural.
I have yet to see someone write a realistic explanation that makes sense.
Saying that "Oh the Third shared it with Minato because Minato was a total Tobirama fanboy!" Yeah....that makes sense. NO!
The third would never share such jutsu with even elite Jonin in my opinion.
Minato was a so called Prodigy....well doesn't that mean he would have been awesome without the thirds help? Did he need help to come up with awesome kick ass jutsu?
That's the hole in all the "The third let Minato see the second Hokage's notes!" theories. No other so called "prodigy" of the leaf has ever been granted access to a previous Hokage's jutsu. Not Itachi who was trusted by the third, not Orochimaru, not Kakashi etc. So why was Minato given "special" treatment? He was only considered for Hokage AFTER he routed the forces of Iwa, using YES you guessed it Hiraishin no jutsu.
The third who could be argued was soft on Naruto never shared jutsu or played favorites with Naruto. So why should Minato get special treatment from the third?
At most if Minato expressed an interest in Tobirama's space time ninjutsu the third would have described it. Thats all, this would have likely forced Minato to come up with a unique space time jutsu that while it would mirror the Seconds wouldn't be based upon the exact same principles. Ergo Minato wouldn't be running around with what amounts to as the second's jutsu lol.
Does that not sound funny? The foreshadowing...as you called it is the use of the same jutsu.
Prior to his resurrection everyone fro Jiraiya, Tsunade, Saru Kakashi etc to the Raikage and Bee commented that he was not a shinobi you would encounter often
These are Kage level shinobi
My problem with this is that it is all just opinion, as i have highlighted above.
I have seen, 'I think Tsunade'' and ''I think...''
You are ignoring the Nidaime left behind jutsu's to konoha, and made some forbidden, [such as kage bunshin and edo tensei]
The S/T ninjutsu has never been mentioned as forbidden, it is just unattainable.
Minato took it and improved on it as mentioned by kakashi
For someone labelled as a genius, the youngest kage and was literally fast tracked to become hokage, so much so that Saru stepped down [remember this was more than a decade before the third almost killed an Orochimaru who had his arms, so he was still quite adept]
It just means that as a student of a sannin, and obvious talent, he could have access to konoha jutsu's .
Because he was able to use the jutsu and others cannot means he lived up to his name not that he is blood related
Prior to his resurrection everyone fro Jiraiya, Tsunade, Saru Kakashi etc to the Raikage and Bee commented that he was not a shinobi you would encounter often
These are Kage level shinobi
My problem with this is that it is all just opinion, as i have highlighted above.
I have seen, 'I think Tsunade'' and ''I think...''
You are ignoring the Nidaime left behind jutsu's to konoha, and made some forbidden, [such as kage bunshin and edo tensei]
The S/T ninjutsu has never been mentioned as forbidden, it is just unattainable.
Minato took it and improved on it as mentioned by kakashi
For someone labelled as a genius, the youngest kage and was literally fast tracked to become hokage, so much so that Saru stepped down [remember this was more than a decade before the third almost killed an Orochimaru who had his arms, so he was still quite adept]
It just means that as a student of a sannin, and obvious talent, he could have access to konoha jutsu's .
Because he was able to use the jutsu and others cannot means he lived up to his name not that he is blood related
The fricken hokage body guards were TAUGHT the Hiraishin by Minato, even if it was only useful as a transport jutsu. Doesn't that sound fishy? If a bunch of fodder ninja can learn the hiraishin even if its a cooperative jutsu. Don't you think the Third would have demanded that the jutsu be analyzed and implemented as a battlefield reinforcement jutsu? Even if it couldn't be used in direct combat it could reinforce battlefields instantly.
You call it unattainable, who says? Nobody that's what. The fact that fodders learned it says otherwise, and they weren't even so called "prodigies".
Ergo its a clan jutsu, Ergo Minato taught it to his most trusted guards. Ergo it wasn't a jutsu available to just about anyone. Don't tell me that someone like Itachi couldn't work out that jutsu, don't tell me he isn't as smart as Minato lol.
My thread was never to undermine Minato's accomplishments & genius. If Sasuke is related to Itachi that means all his feats are bloodline related, what is the logic in that?
The purpose of this thread was that this hunch may be true, Minato was a genius and a great Shinobi but was related to Tobirama hence was a Senju, those are different things. Him being a Senju doesn't mean his accomplishments are nil. Why do people have views like this? Like bloodline kills talent? Where is the logic in that?
My thread was never to undermine Minato's accomplishments & genius. If Sasuke is related to Itachi that means all his feats are bloodline related, what is the logic in that?
The purpose of this thread was that this hunch may be true, Minato was a genius and a great Shinobi but was related to Tobirama hence was a Senju, those are different things. Him being a Senju doesn't mean his accomplishments are nil. Why do people have views like this? Like bloodline kills talent? Where is the logic in that?
Indeed I've come up against this myself. People seem to think we are bashing MInato's character. Not that he needs any help from us on the bashing front he does a good enough job of that to himself lol.
Indeed I've come up against this myself. People seem to think we are bashing MInato's character. Not that he needs any help from us on the bashing front he does a good enough job of that to himself lol.
The question can equally be relayed back to yourself regarding the scans of the manga or moments where it indicates that it is more likely as you said, that they are related.
I also said it was more logical, not an absolute to be clear.
Now, in terms of why from my perspective that it seems more logical:
I will be brief and address the two main arguments:
A - Looks & Potential clan/blood descendant
B - Jutsu
A. The obvious one to begin is his name, more importantly his clan name ''Namikaze'' . This obviously rules him out being a full senju, and i wont insult your intelligence by delving in further.
Now based on assumption only, Kishi may place in a new chapter that Tobirama was married to a ''Namikaze'' and then that will make it more likely that he is a descendant, via blood or clan.
If he was also, kishi had the perfect opportunity to introduce this during Jiraiyas last conversation with Tsunade:
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Until that possible event of kishi changing his mind and introducing a link, we have had no indication he can be related by clan.
B - Minato taught FTG to his 'special' team who were assigned to protect him:
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This indicates that the FTG was a jutsu that was attainable and not a secret clan jutsu hidden away, or something that was never ment for anyone but the senju or descendants of Tobirama, it was available to learn or be taught.
Unlike the Edo Tensei which was made forbidden by Tobirama this was never referred to as a ''Kinjutsu''
From this we can also see that Minato being a prodigy had access to the jutsu being a citizen of Konoha as long as they were taught or had the information ; as did his team
However as they stated in that scan Minato was clearly advanced as he was able to perform the jutsu by himself.
As now that particular team could attempt to teach the jutsu to someone however if they are able to perform it is a different story.
You can also assess this as why would Minato teach a jutsu only meant for himself being a descendant etc.
This is why it is less than likely he is a descendant based on the manga and not on opinion
this doesn't make it future fact, but rather what has been revealed.
As i am all for a good debate, and very happy to proven wrong and learn something new, i probably missed something that makes it more than likely as you said from the manga that he is a descendant
The question can equally be relayed back to yourself regarding the scans of the manga or moments where it indicates that it is more likely as you said, that they are related.
I also said it was more logical, not an absolute to be clear.
Now, in terms of why from my perspective that it seems more logical:
I will be brief and address the two main arguments:
A - Looks & Potential clan/blood descendant
B - Jutsu
A. The obvious one to begin is his name, more importantly his clan name ''Namikaze'' . This obviously rules him out being a full senju, and i wont insult your intelligence by delving in further.
Now based on assumption only, Kishi may place in a new chapter that Tobirama was married to a ''Namikaze'' and then that will make it more likely that he is a descendant, via blood or clan.
If he was also, kishi had the perfect opportunity to introduce this during Jiraiyas last conversation with Tsunade:
You must be registered for see images
Until that possible event of kishi changing his mind and introducing a link, we have had no indication he can be related by clan.
B - Minato taught FTG to his 'special' team who were assigned to protect him:
You must be registered for see images
This indicates that the FTG was a jutsu that was attainable and not a secret clan jutsu hidden away, or something that was never ment for anyone but the senju or descendants of Tobirama, it was available to learn or be taught.
Unlike the Edo Tensei which was made forbidden by Tobirama this was never referred to as a ''Kinjutsu''
From this we can also see that Minato being a prodigy had access to the jutsu being a citizen of Konoha as long as they were taught or had the information ; as did his team
However as they stated in that scan Minato was clearly advanced as he was able to perform the jutsu by himself.
As now that particular team could attempt to teach the jutsu to someone however if they are able to perform it is a different story.
You can also assess this as why would Minato teach a jutsu only meant for himself being a descendant etc.
This is why it is less than likely he is a descendant based on the manga and not on opinion
this doesn't make it future fact, but rather what has been revealed.
As i am all for a good debate, and very happy to proven wrong and learn something new, i probably missed something that makes it more than likely as you said from the manga that he is a descendant
The name Namikaze is circumstantial at best. It could be a prime set up for a scenario like Naruto's own birth name being Uzumaki instead of Namikaze. It could be the same thing, you have no more evidence to suggest I am wrong than you have to say that I am long. Hence no logical stand point in this is stronger. However I must say its far better writing for Minato to have had the same treatment as Naruto by the Third no less.
It also parrellels Hashirama and Mito Uzumaki: Minato Namikaze and Kushina Uzumaki. Senju & Uzumaki again.
You make good points about Jiraiya but it could be that not even he knew about Minato's origins perhaps only the Third knew about the truth. So tbh that doesn't persuade me all that much on this point. Not only that but Jiraiya seems to be a notorious womanizer so how the hell would he know if he had a kid or not?
You've gone back on yourself, at first you said it was unattainable for anyone but Minato, but now your saying that it was attainable for anyone, as in open source. If that was true why is it only the Hokage's guard that knows it in the current era? Why isn't there a Hiraishin corps charged with transporting goods and troops to battlefields and the like?
Well Minato didn't have any other fellow descendents around so he would have to make do with teaching a sub par version of the jutsu to his trusted allies. Again this point is purely about perspective you say one thing I say another. Fact remains that if it was open source as you say then why aren't there more users, especially if fodders like Genma can use it. Why can't Jiraiya another seal master use it?
It makes sense for it to be a clan technique, all the secrecy around it and how its obviously been with held from other prodigious members of the leaf. If it wasn't they would all likely be able to use it if as I said, fodders like Genma and his team can use it.
The name Namikaze is circumstantial at best. It could be a prime set up for a scenario like Naruto's own birth name being Uzumaki instead of Namikaze. It could be the same thing, you have no more evidence to suggest I am wrong than you have to say that I am long. Hence no logical stand point in this is stronger. However I must say its far better writing for Minato to have had the same treatment as Naruto by the Third no less.
It also parrellels Hashirama and Mito Uzumaki: Minato Namikaze and Kushina Uzumaki. Senju & Uzumaki again.
You make good points about Jiraiya but it could be that not even he knew about Minato's origins perhaps only the Third knew about the truth. So tbh that doesn't persuade me all that much on this point. Not only that but Jiraiya seems to be a notorious womanizer so how the hell would he know if he had a kid or not?
You've gone back on yourself, at first you said it was unattainable for anyone but Minato, but now your saying that it was attainable for anyone, as in open source. If that was true why is it only the Hokage's guard that knows it in the current era? Why isn't there a Hiraishin corps charged with transporting goods and troops to battlefields and the like?
Well Minato didn't have any other fellow descendents around so he would have to make do with teaching a sub par version of the jutsu to his trusted allies. Again this point is purely about perspective you say one thing I say another. Fact remains that if it was open source as you say then why aren't there more users, especially if fodders like Genma can use it. Why can't Jiraiya another seal master use it?
It makes sense for it to be a clan technique, all the secrecy around it and how its obviously been with held from other prodigious members of the leaf. If it wasn't they would all likely be able to use it if as I said, fodders like Genma and his team can use it.
I will refer to the bolded parts as A,B,C respectively
A - It would be far better writing if Minato was treated the same, but he wasn't and that is a desire and not something coming from the Manga
B - I didn't if you refer back, i was rather referring to the assumption that it was unique to him as sort of a kekkai genkai type of deal regarding his ''unique lineage''
C - Not necessarily, there was no secret regarding it, nor is there a manga scan saying it is a hidden jutsu or a secret jutsu as i mentioned earlier, and it was not referred to as a Kinjutsu - ''Forbidden Technique'' to deter anyone from attempting to learn it.
As for why is there not any units running around using the S/T jutsu, is that is a hole in the manga, that may or may not be filled.
But does not make anything fact regarding it.
As 'THE HOKAGE'S PROTECTION TEAM'', who by Madara Sasuke, Naruto etc etc, standards are fodder, are still recruited as such by the Hokage not making them any fodder such as Ebisu.
and just to clarify:
Only Sakura and Tsunade have the chakra control and precision for their ''super strength''
Only Darui and Sandaime Raikage could use Black lightning
Doesn't confirm or foreshadow relation
The Professor Sarutobi :
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Could have easily instructed the genius Minato on how to use the jutsu, is he was able to see similarities in his old Master and him
[This is an assumption]
However the underlying difference here is that
I believe based on the manga and proofs that it is more than likely he isn't a relative
You believe based on the manga and proofs it is more than likely he is he is a relative
I will refer to the bolded parts as A,B,C respectively
A - It would be far better writing if Minato was treated the same, but he wasn't and that is a desire and not something coming from the Manga
B - I didn't if you refer back, i was rather referring to the assumption that it was unique to him as sort of a kekkai genkai type of deal regarding his ''unique lineage''
C - Not necessarily, there was no secret regarding it, nor is there a manga scan saying it is a hidden jutsu or a secret jutsu as i mentioned earlier, and it was not referred to as a Kinjutsu - ''Forbidden Technique'' to deter anyone from attempting to learn it.
As for why is there not any units running around using the S/T jutsu, is that is a hole in the manga, that may or may not be filled.
But does not make anything fact regarding it.
As 'THE HOKAGE'S PROTECTION TEAM'', who by Madara Sasuke, Naruto etc etc, standards are fodder, are still recruited as such by the Hokage not making them any fodder such as Ebisu.
A- True it is my feeling, but its an opportunity that I doubt a good writer would pass up on.
B-Very well then, my other points still stand regarding this point, Open source for the Hiraishin jutsu makes no sense. Which was what you were suggesting /end point/
C- Well apparently no body else can use it in the leaf, ergo its either not a well know jutsu, haha right the fourth hokage's jutsu is unknown yeah right, is a village secret or its a clan jutsu. Question is why isn't it that fodders like Genma can use this jutsu at least partially yet none of the so called prodigies of the leaf can recreate it? Obviously they are sworn to secrecy about its inner workings and nobody else can get their hands of the jutsu. That's the only way to make sense of the facts disregarding "Plot holes" as you call them.
And if it is a village secret then it comes back to the same question of how Minato knows Hiraishin...ergo you come back to the logical end point of it being held in keeping for when Minato reached majority or Chunin.
A- True it is my feeling, but its an opportunity that I doubt a good writer would pass up on.
B-Very well then, my other points still stand regarding this point, Open source for the Hiraishin jutsu makes no sense. Which was what you were suggesting /end point/
C- Well apparently no body else can use it in the leaf, ergo its either not a well know jutsu, haha right the fourth hokage's jutsu is unknown yeah right, is a village secret or its a clan jutsu. Question is why isn't it that fodders like Genma can use this jutsu at least partially yet none of the so called prodigies of the leaf can recreate it? Obviously they are sworn to secrecy about its inner workings and nobody else can get their hands of the jutsu. That's the only way to make sense of the facts disregarding "Plot holes" as you call them.
And if it is a village secret then it comes back to the same question of how Minato knows Hiraishin...ergo you come back to the logical end point of it being held in keeping for when Minato reached majority or Chunin.
Repping both of you for this wonderful debate and a great conclusion. This was really great because both points seem to hold almost an equal ground in my opinion.
First of all, after visiting and reading threads on Narutobase to finally be able to register and post my own thread is really awesome. Thank you for reopening the Registrations.
Now, onto my theory. I somehow believe that Tobirama is directly or indirectly related to Minato, now I will base this theory only on Character Designs - Visual, Personality & Ninjutsu Capabilities.
1. Visual Similarities
Tobirama and Minato look really similar with the Spiky Hair and two sides of the faces covered - Mask in case of Tobirama & Hair in case of Minato. Now I know this is a long-shot but writers do tend to do this, similar base sketches and changed props. Why would a writer relate two people without them having any connection? But as I said, this is a long shot.
Here are two images for comparison.
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Also, one more thing to notice is how Tobirama & Hashirama have totally different appearances besides being brothers. If we look at other examples from the manga this is an exception as Madara & Izuna looked alike, Itachi & Sasuke looked alike but these two brothers have really contrasting appearances and I think this is because Tobirama has a bigger role in a different direction - Minato being related to him and this being revealed later.
2. Personality
According to Naruto Wiki both Tobirama Senju and Minato Namikaze were composed individuals who always had a plan. Both were shrewd to the extent that they would assess each situation logically and not do anything without any reason. During battle both of them used Speed techniques but that is for the other section. Anyway here are links to their respective wikis and in the Personality section there are a lot of similarities which struck this idea actually.
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3. Ninjutsu Capabilities & Techniques
Both are adept at Space-Time Ninjutsu - FTG.
Both are Sensory Types.
Both rely on Speed & Reflexes instead of large techniques.
I know this theory was really small but I tried my best to use all available information. You can vote if you like my theory on the Poll above.
Also, if you're wondering what was the main basis of this theory besides the similar character designs it was this scan from Chapter 462.
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What struck me is the word play, at one point Tobi says, he can see the Will of Fire in Naruto like Hashirama which is a simile like as White as Snow. But later he says, he sees Hashirama in Naruto which is metaphor. He again uses Metaphor in the next line which is Naruto and Sasuke directly being compared to Fire and Hatred and to Hashirama and Madara as if they are the exact opposites. Now we all know how Uzumaki are related to Senju and are distant cousins but to truly keep this page's meaning, Naruto should be a Senju not an Uzumaki so if Minato is related to Tobirama then it all makes perfect sense, Naruto had an Uzumaki mother and a Senju Father which makes him the exact opposite.
I hope you found this theory entertaining, if not plausible. Thank you for reading.
Omg. I never connected this theory to that. Thank you so much Davidou for adding this. This seriously gave me a little confidence in Minato being a Senju.
What's noticeable is the fact that Hashirama, Nawaki, Minato and Naruto have visions of leading people to a better world since they were kids. All of them. This gives more ground to Ashura transmigrating through them.
