Neji is the only K11 ninja that can beat Zabuza (Naruto is excluded)

[Bantos]

Actually, Sakura and Hinata can take him with their current skills.

 

[TheEvilOne]

Actually, Sakura and Hinata can take him with their current skills.

Nah, Hinata is too lame. She is too slow to react to Zabuza's speed. Even part1 Kakashi had problems with him.

 

[Bantos]

Nah, Hinata is too lame. She is too slow to react to Zabuza's speed. Even part1 Kakashi had problems with him.

Maybe I'm just underrating Zabuza. ._. Byakugan is the perfect counter for his silent killing technique, and Hinata's taijutsu reactions are pretty good since she could use hakke rokujuyon sho. If Zabuza isn't blitzing her instantly when the fight begins he's gonna lose.

 

[NewKageism]

Yea Hinata does not have the killing instant nor the will or confidence to fight a Zabuza. She has not really upgraded at all.

Part one Neji was still better than part two Hinata just saying.

 

[paratise]

Yea Hinata does not have the killing instant nor the will or confidence to fight a Zabuza. She has not really upgraded at all.

Part one Neji was still better than part two Hinata just saying.

Bolded is the undeniable truth.
Part 1 Neji owns Hinata back then and now.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

caterpillar;13456805]Well i agreed; because it seemed plausable.

Characters are introduced at different points of story and their levels more or less increase at such points.

I am not saying Zabuza is weak; but after that arc; we saw different rookies with their own talents, then a superior sound five, then the same rookies improved, then Akatsuki, main villains etc. Almost every known characters have their own hype. Sakura is pupil of a sannin. Lee is the pupil of the best taijutsu user. Chouji and Shino are members of reknown clans etc.

Not for everyone on the list; but i can debate for Lee. The points you have adressed in the OP can be easily countered; they are commonly used words like "Lee is a drooling dumbass who does not know what to do" "Gates take time to perform" "He does not go gates at the proper time" etc. Most of these either changed or not true.

Zabuza's hype is above them. Sorry I made this thread long ago I know the arguments are weak, let me update them.

Well who said this? Contrary to popular belief there is not much indication in the manga suggests Lee is a below average moron. Besides no one would give someone a chuunin rank if said person is both have no affinity for nin-genjutsu and a complete moron.
Few examples to show he is not a complete idiot:
Acting accroding to an attack he have seen before:

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Using different techniques from his arsenl after understanding his attacks are not working:

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Undersatnding how inner chakra coil system and gentle fist works:

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Giving info to ally right away (which is what a shinobi suppose to do)

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Gaara did not say what he did with the material of sand; but he understand it:

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Observed how metamorphosis of Kimimaro effected his movement:

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^^Just a few; i think these are enough. He is not someone who would be able to outsmart majority of NV; but not that dumb either.

Well for one he has a 2 for intelligence in the data book which is below average. Everything you have listed are things Genin are capable of doing. They are common sense, "After using techniques that don't work he used different ones", well no shit lol anyone would think of that. Lee isn't smart and doesn't even have the average intelligence (2.5).

He had no other choice against Gaara; he used the gates.

So after battling Gaara after using basic Taijutsu, then removing his weights, then using more taijutsu. Then, when that failed, he kept trying to use Taijutsu again and again and again until he decided to use Gates. He wasn't like, "Basic Taijutsu isn't going to work, I better go to Gates." No, he kept trying to use anything besides the Gates due to the severe side effects.

Using Gates once the fight starts just isn't happening.

He had no viable choice aginst Kimimaro, he opened the first gate and he was borderline crippled. If he feels trapped or without a choice; he would use gates.

Yeah, the first gate AFTER constantly using Taijutsu, failing, and trying to use more basic Taijutsu. Again, the Gates weren't a first resort, his basic Tai was and that's what he will do against Zabuza. He, as I said before, isn't smart nor has knowledge on Zabuza's Water Clone feints and his large scale Suiton. He will not know what's really going on so will not know that his Taijutsu won't work and will not use Gates until he knows 100% sure his basic Taijutsu won't work.

He can wait or not; it does not change the outcome granted by numbers folded speed and strength which is already high. Lee is also so fast that he was able to best a sharingan user (the same sharingan user who bested Haku in speed outside of mirrors wo sharingan) with weights on his legs, was able to bypass Gaara's sand which blocked every assasin's attack, also blocked Haku when he was in ice mirrors at war arc. With gates; these feats are easily left behind the dust.

Yeah he bested beginning Part 1 Genin Sasuke who didn't even have impressive speed nor strong skills in Taijutsu. I'm not going to deny Lee's speed is impressive, but Zabuza can match it, as he caught up with Shippuden Kakashi who has the same speed (4.5/5) as Lee and comparable Taijutsu; however, equipped with his Sharingan, Kakashi's CQC compares to Lee's.

He did not go gates because he was fighting along with a platoon; why would it be nececcary; and Kakashi was commandor; people were generally taking his orders.

It would be necessary to protect Sakura, as Lee said even in the manga that he would die for her:

Spoiler

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Of course he would follow up the formation which suggested by who had experience with Zabuza.
And gates do not take much time for him anymore and does not have same stamina issues:
Here he opened the 5th gate while in the mid air and with no prior waiting:

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And he does not have visible physical restraints; 3 chapters passed and minutes of events happened:

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Good argument, yet this only proves his speed in activating them and not having severe after effects. It still doesn't prove using Gates is his first resort, as throughout every entire fight he has been in, his basic Taijutsu has been his first moves to act upon. Gates come last, which will be too late for Lee.

So yeah; gates are capable of defeating Zabuza. He does not start of with gates; but he can use it at the times he feels as right.

He won't have time if Zabuza is right behind him, despite his increase in speed of activation of the technique. Zabuza is fast as well, even being able to blitz Kakashi with a Water Prison which required 8 seals, which further shows his feats of speed:

Spoiler

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Not to mention he can use this technique to disarm Zabuza:
Team Gai was battling with Kisame; both Lee and Gai were infront of him and Kisame made an attack that would put Gai in defensive position:

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Lee seperated Kisame from Samehada; even though Lee was not his aim and caught off guard; this guy is one of the best swordsmen and said to be incredibly strong by Gai, and his reaction timing and sped was good enough to reacting Bee's attacks and Gai's base taijutsu:

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I would be disappointed if Lee didn't disarm Kisame from Samehada because he double teamed Kisame with an even greater Taijutsu user, Might Gai. That is actually no feat at all.

How is he going to disarm Zabuza when he can't even find him? He isn't. Due to Kisame's sword's length, which is about the same as Zabuza's, Lee was having trouble getting close even with Gai.

There are other points i can adress for Lee; but all in all i think he wins this and these are enough for the ones in OP.

Zabuza beats Lee mid diff. He has shown to keep up with speed such as Lee's (excluding the Gates) and with his Water Clone feints, he will outmaneuver Lee and probably get him in a Water Prison if needed. Or he may use his large scale Suiton. Lee just isn't using Gates first, it isn't his character. By the time he figures out he can't touch Zabuza without them, he loses.

Kiba is probably the best equipped to beat Zabuza. Only 2-headed wolf needs a pre-marking. Cerebus allows Kiba to attack without pre-marking the opponent. As of now Zabuza doesn't have any real counter to a tail-chaser.

Nope, Zabuza's large scale Suiton counters the wolf. Due to Zabuza being more well rounded and with his huge gap in experience, he wins in the long run.

You see it as me underrating Zabuza, I see it as you overrating Zabuza. He doesn't stand a chance against Sakura and Chouji. You're reasoning as to why Zabuza defeats Kiba is just as ridiculous as it was when I debated you with Shino. Not to be rude, but quite frankly, I feel like I would be wasting my time sparking up a debate with you. Maybe when you can deduce an actual match up between combatants and stop bringing up irrelevance such as ninja rank into debates, I might feel more likely to comply. And Caterpillar is doing a fine job with defending Lee so I'm not going to get into that either.

If Sakura summons Katsuyu, which isn't likely because boss summons were never shown to be used offensively against human sized targets, then she probably wins. However, it is possible that Zabuza's Suiton could take out the slug because Katsuyu has acid inside her right? The water can mess with the pH level and possibly kill the slug. This is what I heard from Icelerate, a well credible member on here.

Choji's expansion jutsu was shown to be dispersed when he was hit powerful enough due to him not being able to control his chakra due to the powerful force right? This was shown against Jiroubo. Choji's expansion is his only chance, even then, Zabuza can hide in the mist and just ambush him with tools and Suitons. If he hits Choji numerous times with Water Dragon and Giant Vortex Jutsu and Choiji reverts back to his original form, Zabuza wins. If not, Choji wins; however, I don't know how he will attack Zabuza in the mist. Choji probably wins though.

Shino isn't winning and Zabuza doesn't even need a water source to beat him because he obviously can make water on his own as fodder Chuunin has shown this ability. Zabuza is too experienced and outclasses Shino in about every aspect.

You don't have to debate with me.

Choji beat him. Zabuza is not really putting up a fight with Choji. Choji part 1 and 2 are different. He is not simply a crybaby as he used to be. He still tears up, but actually fights now. Plus with the wings...

Game over. Him and Neji beats him.


Shino is secondary beating him. He is a smart fighter too. Without water source Zabuza is losing. With water source Zaubuza = Shino in the fight.
Sakura with slug is winning
Sakura with no slug is losing

I would say Lee, but he is not catching on and Zabuza got him in the mist.
Kiba in the long run is dead. Take out his dog or him they are useless solo.
The rest no

I agree with nearly all of this, Zabuza wins against Sakura without the slug, which is how it would most likely be because a boss summon has never been shown offensively against just a human sized target and in a real situation, Zabuza will be hiding ready to assassinate Sakura and due to her considerable slowness compared to Zabuza, he wins.

Choji most likely wins as well.

Shino....no he just isn't winning.

Nice post tho

 

[BenjerminGaye]

reviving old threads .... kiba, choji( definite ) and maybe lee wins

 

[paratise]

@ShaneEyyy; i Will counter your post it my be this evening (according to my country's timeline) or later, but right now i am at the phone and busy with stuff.

 

[paratise]

Zabuza's hype is above them. Sorry I made this thread long ago I know the arguments are weak, let me update them.

Why would it be? Bear in mind that i never said hype matters; i just stated that almost every known character are granted with a hype by the author; it does not prove power to defeat another opponent.

Wasn't Gaara making the whole village pissing their pants? Wasn't Lee the one who was the first person ever lay a hit on him and fought toe to toe? Wasn't Kakashi needed his sharingan to just being able to watch and keep up with a genin Lee's match? As i said; hype is a matter of words. Still does not prove who wins.

Well for one he has a 2 for intelligence in the data book which is below average. Everything you have listed are things Genin are capable of doing. They are common sense, "After using techniques that don't work he used different ones", well no shit lol anyone would think of that. Lee isn't smart and doesn't even have the average intelligence (2.5).

lol shit of course anyone thinks that. That's what am i trying to say; you are just assuming he would stand there when mist casts on because:

You think once Zabuza puts up the Mist, Lee is going to know exactly what's going on and immediately go to Gates?

He knows he is in a danger, he knows he is in a fight and he knows he is surrounded by a blinding effect. He would not give up on his fight because that's his character. You are clearly trying to restrict Lee for no other reasoning that something that is not in his character; he might not be smart; but he does not have a brain which does not function.

And to say; Lee does not need gates to be able to react and fight Zabuza in the mist.
Sasuke was able to do handle a fight with clones when the mist was up:

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So after battling Gaara after using basic Taijutsu, then removing his weights, then using more taijutsu. Then, when that failed, he kept trying to use Taijutsu again and again and again until he decided to use Gates. He wasn't like, "Basic Taijutsu isn't going to work, I better go to Gates." No, he kept trying to use anything besides the Gates due to the severe side effects.

1) Already prooved matter of side effects
2) Again; you are trying to put restrictions. If he knows his attacks ain't working and is trapped why would he not go gates? Same case for Kimimaro or Gaara; it his what he would do for cutting the case. Why would it be different for Zabuza?
Look what he said for Gaara:

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Similar to:

"Basic Taijutsu isn't going to work, I better go to Gates."

Using Gates once the fight starts just isn't happening.

Just to let you know from now and then; Lee does not require gates to react something which is not in his line of vision.
Lee would already know he is fighting. He would see Zabuza and his blade before he puts up the mist; it would not take a genius to understand he would attack with blade.
Shinobis can react things they can't see; Sakura; whose reaction timing, speed and taijutsu level below Lee's accomplished such:

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"But she knew Zetsu would attack" of course she knew; so does Lee in this case, he knows he is in a fight! Even in blinding dark; i can effortlessly walk on stairs of my own building, or walk in my own room without tripping on something because i am accustomated with my surroundings; Lee is expert in taijutsu and exchanging blows; they are his surroundings in a way; he still posseses his reaction time and taijutsu proficency.
Not to mention muscle memory:

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He was said to be unconcious; what is the state of beign unconcious; it is losing senses and ability to response of body; sight, hearing whatever you wanna say. His body can literally move on its own accord for reacting to situation! That final stance of his not just for emotional impact; he would not do such if his body was not capable.
And for example; Sasuke was able to react and fight in the mist wo sharingan:

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Lee is far superior in reflexes, speed and taijutsu compared to that Sasuke. He is able to fight in the mist.

Yeah, the first gate AFTER constantly using Taijutsu, failing, and trying to use more basic Taijutsu. Again, the Gates weren't a first resort, his basic Tai was and that's what he will do against Zabuza. He, as I said before, isn't smart nor has knowledge on Zabuza's Water Clone feints and his large scale Suiton. He will not know what's really going on so will not know that his Taijutsu won't work and will not use Gates until he knows 100% sure his basic Taijutsu won't work.

Ok; he does not need knowledge on some water clones and "large scale" suiton of Zabuza to be able to counter.
Clones would be defeated;

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, instead of weaponary they would be obliterated by Lee's taijutsu skills and high physical strength: (

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) (

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) and he already encountered with Kisame; who would make Zabuza's suiton scale look like puddle. Though i don't know why Lee is suppose to posses a great deal of intellect or knowledge to counter his suiton.

And he has a great deal of endurence, he point blank tanked a massive amount of sand of Gaara which pulvirized the entire wall:

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He won't die over something like water dragon even if hits him (he can dodge anyway)

Yeah he bested beginning Part 1 Genin Sasuke who didn't even have impressive speed nor strong skills in Taijutsu. I'm not going to deny Lee's speed is impressive, but Zabuza can match it, as he caught up with Shippuden Kakashi who has the same speed (4.5/5) as Lee and comparable Taijutsu; however, equipped with his Sharingan, Kakashi's CQC compares to Lee's.

That genin part 1 Sasuke wo sharingan and less experience bested Haku; same Haku made Zabuza surprise by losing Sasuke in speed:

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Lee was a genin with weights on his legs when he encountered Sasuke and bested him.
And Lee blocked Haku when he is moving in his ice mirrors (an extremely fast state), and he accomplished the feat about the same time with Gai:

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Catching up = / = a full blown cqc battle. Temari blocked Lee's first kick as well. Sasuke was able to dodge one or two blows of Lee before he get defeated in taijutsu.
Also Kakashi's taijutsu stat is a half point lower than Lee's. Not that stats do matter to me much.

It would be necessary to protect Sakura, as Lee said even in the manga that he would die for her:

Spoiler

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Okay...he was listening orders and following up the formation. Why would he go ham and shows off while he could take the logical orders? In fact doing something out of plan would put her in danger more.

Good argument, yet this only proves his speed in activating them and not having severe after effects. It still doesn't prove using Gates is his first resort, as throughout every entire fight he has been in, his basic Taijutsu has been his first moves to act upon. Gates come last, which will be too late for Lee.

It proves matter of decreasing severe effects; 3 chapters get over after him opening gates yet no visible immense physical effect like he had in part 1.

He won't have time if Zabuza is right behind him, despite his increase in speed of activation of the technique. Zabuza is fast as well, even being able to blitz Kakashi with a Water Prison which required 8 seals, which further shows his feats of speed:

Spoiler

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So; blitzing Kakashi (at his weakest form in the series and while him babysitting 4 other people) means he would blitz Lee, who has better taijutsu and speed than Kakashi? Not to mention Kakashi in

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state before Zabuza blitzed him; he was in water and was off balance; it is not hard to "blitz" someone in such state.

I would be disappointed if Lee didn't disarm Kisame from Samehada because he double teamed Kisame with an even greater Taijutsu user, Might Gai. That is actually no feat at all.

How is he going to disarm Zabuza when he can't even find him? He isn't. Due to Kisame's sword's length, which is about the same as Zabuza's, Lee was having trouble getting close even with Gai.

Lee was ahving "trouble" since Kisame just made a massive wave of water thus thrown the team off balance, yet Lee was able to disarm Kisame. Already said Lee can react to Zabuza in mist; and Lee would know Zabuza has a blade with him. We have seen people reacting Zabuza and surviving the fight with him at land of waves arc; and all those people were below Lee in speed/taijutsu; not to mention gates.

Zabuza beats Lee mid diff. He has shown to keep up with speed such as Lee's (excluding the Gates) and with his Water Clone feints, he will outmaneuver Lee and probably get him in a Water Prison if needed. Or he may use his large scale Suiton. Lee just isn't using Gates first, it isn't his character. By the time he figures out he can't touch Zabuza without them, he loses.

Water prison would be repelled by the repulsive force granted by gates:

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The aura is seen better here:

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Gai in

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; Lee in lower gates would do the same; just in a smaller scale.