(Negative Knight) Proof that Kakuzu > Kisame Hoshigaki (Debate)

[natzzz]

very hard to decide but i'm going to go with kakauzu due to his eath and lightning release and kakashi stated that water techniques are not strong enough to hold against air fire combo's.

 

[Sunagura]

very good thread as always, really like these vs thread, full of detail...i must say they both have 50/50, but i give it to kakuzu with his five element attack, but if kisame make waterdom and water shark bullet in start than kisame win....

make more of these thread often..

 

[DeViliShChild]

1. He killed Kakuzu's Earth heart.(Prove it--In Fact this statement is irreverent to this discussion, I don't know why you brought that out.). He can no longer use earth elemental (Again No idea why you are bringing this up and yet that doesn't prove that the mask was Earth.) . Im so confused what that has to do with them all having their own chakara. It's all Kakuzu's strung together (The way you are putting it is like Kakuzu chakra link is the same as Kankuro: Absorb the main body and he can't link chakra anymore which is incorrect. These monsters are stored with someone elses heart and chakra nature, thus having 4 extra.)

First and foremost, try not to quote someone and then write inside of that quote. It is very confusing to discern what you are trying to say.

1. Well lets see, anytime Kakuzu was attacked he turned to Stone with earth element. After Kakashi hit him, he never used Earth element. - Proven.
2. Yes it does, all of Kakuzu's abilities are from other people now (except his stitching)

3. Yes they all have their own Chakra nature but not their own chakra!
For example Sasori's puppet of the Third Kazakage has all his abilities and his chakara stored in it from the time he died.
Kakuzu just gets the ability to use the nature of the chakara.

 

[Negative Knight]

I agree that samehada is no preta path but it did absorb most of Killer Bee's chakra which is far higher than anything Kakuzu has. Wind release pressure damage is a pressure based attacks which is why it lacks lethality and can be tanked by someone as durable as Kisame. Remember that Ino-Shika-Cho weren't damaged and neither was Kakashi? Kisame has shown time and time again that he can tank those types of attacks that deal blunt/pressure damage. Even Gai's Hirudora wasn't strong enough to kill him and Kisame still had the strength to over power Yamato's mokuton and survive.

True but Killer Bee's lightning didn't do much against Kisame. I'm not sure to what extent samehada can absorb incoming attacks but it did suck Killer Bee and the Hachibi dry in a small amount of time so I don't think a technique that Kakashi was able to counter has enough chakra to overwhelm samehada. Also in the war when Kakuzu was revived, Tenten was dodging gian pretty easily or this might just be a filler scene since I only remember it from the Anime.

Does doton domu also harden the black threads or only Kakuzu's body? Also I just checked the data book scores and Kakuzu only has a 4 compared to Kisame's 5 in physical strength. I have no doubt Kisame is stronger than Kakuzu but you may still think the data book is wrong. If you do, I might need to find scans of Kisame praising his superlative strength and other strength feats and see how they stack up against Kakuzu. Choji never even used his pills or BM when Kakuzu blocked that so it isn't the greatest strength feat. Kisame was able to pull samehada out of the toad mouth trap so this proves he is very strong.

This is true but I think if Kisame can absorb Kakuzu's chakra for long enough, he won't be able to maintain it. This manga panel explains how in a battle lasting just 3 chapters, samehada had

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Can Kisame fuse with samehada while fighting on the ground?

Kisame can use water clones to guard his back.

I don't want to sound like someone who repeats the same thing over and over again so I will refuse to comment but it has everything to do with Kisame outlasting Kakuzu. Although if Kisame is forced to use too many clones, he may run out of chakra faster than Kakuzu.

Depends on the location, starting distance and knowledge. It really can go either way.

I have to concur on this point, Kakuzu could mainly use this as a means of dissipating massive waves of water sent towards him by Kisame (elemental neutrality between water and wind mean they cancel out). However Wind Release Pressure Damage has been shown to fuse with his Katon Zukko, to reach an even higher magnitude, the lethal nature of fire builds on the weakness of his Wind and to an extent nullifies it. Kisame could only hope to counter these two techniques using his largest scale Water Techniques, where these two techniques would inevitably cancel out eachother.

Samehada has shown a certain degree of profiency in its absorption capabilites but highly lacks in defending against higher scale attacks and particularly Katon Release techniques. Samehada would absorb Gian on a normal basis, but Kakuzu seems to use his masks simulatenosuly rather than sepereately in such a way, all the angles are difficult to cover. Kisame usually defends against Ninjutsu using Samehada as a chakra absorption seal, but from 360 degree offensives i highly doubt he could use this to much effect.

You could argue that absorbing chakra from one of the assaults could compensate for the damage dealt through the others by attempting to utilize Samehada's Cellular regeneration, but there are a few looming flaws with this. First of all, the healing is in direct proportion to the amount of chakra in absorbed, so being hit by the other three elemental attacks would inevitably tip the balance and leave Kisame crippled in one way or another. Samehada has to be alive for Kisame to have this ability, the sword itself has shown to be slightly tender/easy to pierce and damage so being hit by three other large scale attacks, one of which is a high scale Katon techniques would prove to be fatal.

The 3rd flaw with his regeneration is the magnitude of the attacks of Kakuzu's projectiles, all of them except Gian (and possibly the earth offensive) wouldn't be absorbed completely so whatever way Kisame looks at it he's screwed, at best he'll be cut badly from the wind, burnt severely and crushed by the earth offensive.

Kakuzu's Doton Domu would most likely harden his threads as well, his entire body constitutes of dark threads, so they would probably count towards his bodily composition. Kisame might have the slight edge in raw strength but Kakuzu's unique body structure provides him with versatility to counter this with. If Kakuzu did feel outmatched in a CQC, then he could use his superior speed and agility (Samehada weighs down Kisame) to counter act this and make it a battle of range, where only he can land hits while Kisame pursues.

Kakuzu has shown

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. This could be used to attack Kisame from above with the extension of his threads, unexpected elemental blasts to catch Kisame off guard and even render his close range chakra absorption trait useless.

I believe Kisame can fuse with Samehada whilst on the ground, he still maintains the ability to breath and so it wouldn't be a problem. However, he gains the speed advantage in water so its logical to use his Water Dome in conjunction with his fusion.

I'm surprised you haven't made more use of the Mizu Bunshins, they have 1/10th of the user's original chakra, so they're considerably powerful but then again one high scale blast would eradicate all of them. They would also individually be far outclassed by Kakuzu's masks, with the ability of flight meaning it becomes a one-sided battle between the clones and the masks.

 

[DeViliShChild]

NegativeKnight How does Kakuzu beat Kisame if he fuses with Samahada?

 

[Negative Knight]

Spoiler

Arguing for Kisame…

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Contingencies:
Kakuzu is a dangerous opponent for anyone to fair against. It is undeniable. He has, at his disposal, the necessary tools to conjure up a win and an intellect that provides him with practical approaches. Kakuzu’s abilities are heavily situated on ninjutsu, and taijutsu. He speed is fairly great as well as his stamina, both are vital and continuingly exercised in his battles from what has been seen. Kakuzu is undoubtedly a shinobi of lethality, whose defeats require someone with either more power to them or utilizing tools perspicaciously. Kisame is the former. He possesses the raw strength that augments his abilities to bijū levels, which compared to others, is seemingly titanic.
_____________________________

Doton Domu:
As much praise as this receives, Kakuzu’s Doton armor is not impervious. It is based off the material properties of diamond, which is earth. As opposed to what people think, diamond can be smashed rather easily. It is just some believed that it is the hardest substance on Earth, which cannot be broken. That is a misconception.

Diamond cannot be scratched, but since it is brittle, it is susceptible to being broken by items that have enough force between them (i.e. a hammer, water, stone, etc.). This is because of the structure weakness of a diamond. While it is a hard material, its structural imperfections allow something with a greater force to break it like glass; ultimately leaving it useless. Moreover; it is chakra founded, so it is definitely absorbable by Samehada.

Suirō Sameodori:
Potentially decisive, this

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can be used to effectively damage and remove Kakuzu’s Doton from him, for reasons listed above. By pressuring Kakuzu, Kisame can forcefully restrict Kakuzu’s Doton armor. The range of this jutsu is massive and devastating to its recipient, for the fusion between Samehada and Kisame provide a seemingly endless amount of opportunities to slay Kakuzu. Additionally; this fusion amplifies Kisame’s killing potential, for the jutsu allows him to further control his movements making him much harder to kill. Some may claim that a raiton technique would ultimately render this jutsu useless, but the fusion of Samehada enables Kisame to utilize its

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principals, which makes seemingly all ninjutsu fruitless in the scope of this technique. Basically; if Kisame uses the water dome then he is most likely fused with Samehada and If Kakuzu orders his raiton mask to shoot raiton into the dome Kakuzu will be the only one getting hurt by his own technique while Kisame’s body simply feeds on the raiton.

Suiton Daikōdan:​

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by itself can entirely neutralize the effects of Kakuzu’s Doton. This is jutsu varies from the original in that it is able to absorb the chakra from an opponent's technique and in turn, use that chakra to grow larger and more powerful. Thus; the stronger the opponents technique is, the stronger this technique will become.

_____________________________

Samehada:​

Due to its absorbent abilities this alone can negate any and all of Kakuzu’s jutsu. In the event that some argue that it would not absorb Katon based techniques, Kisame has been shown to make it to following his commands compellingly regardless of Samehada desires.

Jiongu:
Kakuzu has to control his threads with

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. And these threads are used for attacking and stealing his opponent’s hearts. Samehada can rip though these threads, and absorb the chakra, potentially leaving Kakuzu weaken. Kisame can then easily proceed to attack the weaken Kakuzu who may or may not have attempted to steal Kisame's heart, but was weaken by Kisame's chakra absorbing ability.

_____________________________

Conclusion:
The amplifications that sheathe Kisame are sufficient to allow him to overcome Kakuzu the majority of the time. Ninjutsu wielders do awful against Kisame, for he possesses the necessary tools to suppress them without much prevalence from the enemy. Kakuzu's style seemingly consists of overwhelming with his Ninjutsu. Unfortunately, against a foe that possesses the ability to absorb chakra - and in rather large amounts as well. This handy ability of his should render Kakuzu's Ninjutsu ineffective, but since Kakuzu already knows that, I doubt he'd release his masks and make his extra four lives walking targets like that. Instead, he'd probably opt to engage in close combat in Kisame and hope to capture him with his jiongu and finish him off quickly. Kisame has the advantage in range, stamina and the ability to steal his opponent's chakra and use it to replenish his own and whatnot, as well as have Samehada get in the way of an attack. Furthermore; Kisame is also

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strong, so it's very possible that Kisame can simply just break the threads.

Kakuzu's options are limited. What makes him so dangerous is his ability to use three powerful attacks using three different elements, making him almost impossible to counter. With the presence of Samehada, firing attacks from the masks will only give Kisame an advantage since he can use the stolen chakra for regeneration. It's possible that Kakuzu can simply counter this by having them attack from different directions, but Kisame can counter this by fusing with his sword. Furthermore, the masks aren't particularly fast or strong, and they can be very easily picked off. Kisame has even a effective counter against Kakuzu's Doton armor. Kakuzu is simply a bad match up for Kisame.​

Doton Domu is hardly the perfect defense, but it has shown to make Kakuzu highly resistant to attacks. Direct explosions do nothing against it, Chouji's own effort to harm Kakuzu was easily countered by this jutsu. Whilst Diamond is not completely impervious, Kisame lacks the tools to harm this defense. His raw strength is outclassed by the jutsu and the force of waves is easily dissipated by the Earth Technique (elemental advantage).

I was wondering why a single person didn't raise the point about Doton domu possessing the theoretical risk to be absorbed by Sameahda. Kakuzu has shown himself to be a keen analyst in battle, once he realizes Samehada is absorbing his Doton Domu, he could reserve it for defensive purposes against Kisame's Water Ninjutsu. His age and experience is also another key thing, being 91 years of age he has possibly come across the sword before, heard about it or at least seen chakra draining abilities similar to it.

Samehada Fusion mode is a devastating thing indeed, but as with any jutsu it has exploitable flaws. If used without a Water Dome, then Kisame gains the weakness to fire from Samehada and possibly losing his regenerative abilities due to him and Samehada now sharing one chakra supply. When used in conjunction with his Water Dome, then Kakuzu's separate masks act as a sufficient counter.

Spoiler

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown

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Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode

Spoiler

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How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.

I highly doubt Kisame whilst fused with Samehada can absorb Ninjutsu through his skin, i agree probably on a minuscule scale but nothing exceeding Itachi's Great Fire Ball Technique in magnitude.

Furthermore, Kisame forcing Samehada to absorb Kakuzu's Fire and Wind infusion may prove to be physically impossible due to not being able to eat and process an attack of that magnitude.

On a final note, while i agree Kisame could cut through Kakuzu's threads, he could easily be overwhelmed by the amount of offensives provided by each individual/bunch of thread(s). Kakuzu's v1 Transformation mode was shown to have extremely fast threads (able to catch Kakashi, Chouji and Ino all simultaneously), which could be used to hold down Kisame long enough to achieve a direct hit with his merged masks.

Kakuzu restraining Team 10 and Kakashi following up with a lethal Katon Technique

Spoiler

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*DevilishChakra, this is also a counter towards your question

 

[Brother Numpsay]

@DeViliShChild Side Note: Sorry for that. (My quoting seem to be not working right now so imma do a quick reply.)

1.

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- I made a thread about this on how we can't ultimately say that this mask was Earth just because he didn't use it again. So from here WE are still speculating but trying to make a logical conclusion of which is which.

Also scans of him switching his stragtagey and possible that he doesn't want to/ no need for it anymore:

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"Kakashi Penetrated his TRUE ability"

So...

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He wanted to demonstrate his other power.


Ok, but how about when he was on the verge or death, why didn't he use it agaisnt Naruto to block his Rasengan?

Answer:

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-HE had no knowledge on what it can do. So his strategy was:

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- And remember Kakshi is here ready to Raikri him too, if it is possible that he opens it up again. Any to simplify it, he wanted to fight Long-Range.

2.

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Kakashi explains that each have their own stash of chakra on their own.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

(Oops, I took the first pic out of context... But still doesn't mess up my point. ._.

 

[DeViliShChild]

Doton Domu is hardly the perfect defense, but it has shown to make Kakuzu highly resistant to attacks. Direct explosions do nothing against it, Chouji's own effort to harm Kakuzu was easily countered by this jutsu. Whilst Diamond is not completely impervious, Kisame lacks the tools to harm this defense. His raw strength is outclassed by the jutsu and the force of waves is easily dissipated by the Earth Technique (elemental advantage).

I was wondering why a single person didn't raise the point about Doton domu possessing the theoretical risk to be absorbed by Sameahda due to it being chakra based. Kakuzu has shown himself to be a keen analyst in battle, once he realizes Samehada is absorbing his Doton Domu, he could reserve it for defensive purposes against Kisame's Water Ninjutsu. His age and experience is also another key thing, being 91 years of age he has possibly come across the sword before, heard about it or at least seen chakra draining abilities similar to it.

Samehada Fusion mode is a devastating thing indeed, but as with any jutsu it has exploitable flaws. If used without a Water Dome, then Kisame gains the weakness to fire from Samehada and possibly losing his regenerative abilities due to him and Samehada now sharing one chakra supply. When used in conjunction with his Water Dome, then Kakuzu's separate masks act as a sufficient counter.

Spoiler

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown

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Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode

Spoiler

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How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.

I highly doubt Kisame whilst fused with Samehada can absorb Ninjutsu through his skin, i agree probably on a minuscule scale but nothing exceeding Itachi's Great Fire Ball Technique in magnitude.

Furthermore, Kisame forcing Samehada to absorb Kakuzu's Fire and Wind infusion may prove to be physically impossible due to not being able to eat and process an attack of that magnitude.

On a final note, while i agree Kisame could cut through Kakuzu's threads, he could easily be overwhelmed by the amount of offensives provided by each individual/bunch of thread(s). Kakuzu's v1 Transformation mode was shown to have extremely fast threads (able to catch Kakashi, Chouji and Ino all simultaneously), which could be used to hold down Kisame long enough to achieve a direct hit with his merged masks.

Kakuzu restraining Team 10 and Kakashi following up with a lethal Katon Technique

Spoiler

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*DevilishChakra, this is also a counter towards your question

Im still a little hazy on how this answers my question.

Water dome +fused with Samahada means nothing Kakuzu does can hit Kisame.

If Kakuzu's main body is trapped in water and hearts are outside, then nothing they do can cut through THAT much water. Lightening would be absorbed by the time it hit the middle.

All things inside his water dome are drained of chakara. (

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)

If the hearts are inside it then they will just be drained till death anyway just like kakuzu's main body

 

[Joki]

Spoiler

Doton Domu is hardly the perfect defense, but it has shown to make Kakuzu highly resistant to attacks. Direct explosions do nothing against it, Chouji's own effort to harm Kakuzu was easily countered by this jutsu. Whilst Diamond is not completely impervious, Kisame lacks the tools to harm this defense. His raw strength is outclassed by the jutsu and the force of waves is easily dissipated by the Earth Technique (elemental advantage).

I was wondering why a single person didn't raise the point about Doton domu possessing the theoretical risk to be absorbed by Sameahda due to it being chakra based. Kakuzu has shown himself to be a keen analyst in battle, once he realizes Samehada is absorbing his Doton Domu, he could reserve it for defensive purposes against Kisame's Water Ninjutsu. His age and experience is also another key thing, being 91 years of age he has possibly come across the sword before, heard about it or at least seen chakra draining abilities similar to it.

Samehada Fusion mode is a devastating thing indeed, but as with any jutsu it has exploitable flaws. If used without a Water Dome, then Kisame gains the weakness to fire from Samehada and possibly losing his regenerative abilities due to him and Samehada now sharing one chakra supply. When used in conjunction with his Water Dome, then Kakuzu's separate masks act as a sufficient counter.

Spoiler

How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Water Dome Prison: His Kisame's dome has proven itself to be a troublesome and almost impossible jutsu for most shinobi to counter effectively. However it has shown one slight but exploitable weakness which Kakuzu's arsenal meets the criteria for. His ability to split into 5 seperate bodies, with each of his hearts manifesting their own body which are capable of flight. Through the use of this ability alone, they would be out of the range of the prison. Even then, if they were caught they could travel in separate directions, with Kisame undoubtedly going after Kakuzu. Once the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have shown

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Killer Bee's tactic to exploit a key weakness in Kisame's Water Prison + Samehada Fusion Mode

Spoiler

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How Kakuzu counters Kisame's Great Shark Water Bullet: Kisame's attack is a guided projectile which he maintains through manually controlling it towards the target. Kakuzu could momentarily defend with a high scale elemental blast and then proceed to hit Kisame with one of his other masks without the fear of Samehada absorbing it.

Even then, Kakuzu could defend against it with a stall tactic with one of his hearts, and proceed to either kill Samehada who is unattended or attack Kisame while he is immobile.

I highly doubt Kisame whilst fused with Samehada can absorb Ninjutsu through his skin, i agree probably on a minuscule scale but nothing exceeding Itachi's Great Fire Ball Technique in magnitude.

Furthermore, Kisame forcing Samehada to absorb Kakuzu's Fire and Wind infusion may prove to be physically impossible due to not being able to eat and process an attack of that magnitude.

On a final note, while i agree Kisame could cut through Kakuzu's threads, he could easily be overwhelmed by the amount of offensives provided by each individual/bunch of thread(s). Kakuzu's v1 Transformation mode was shown to have extremely fast threads (able to catch Kakashi, Chouji and Ino all simultaneously), which could be used to hold down Kisame long enough to achieve a direct hit with his merged masks.

Kakuzu restraining Team 10 and Kakashi following up with a lethal Katon Technique

Spoiler

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*DevilishChakra, this is also a counter towards your question

Ok, I'll argue with you. I didn't read many of your other posts though so maybe there's stuff you already expanded on that I don't know about yet. I want to talk about water dome and shark missile mainly, but imo shark missile is completely overkill and Kisame doesn't need it because if he used it it would destroy Kakuzu, a guy who's based around multiple massive ninjutsu blasts is horrible against shark missile for obvious reasons.

First is your counters to water dome:

Spoiler

Why is Killer Bee's plan valid here? When Kakuzu's masks all go in different directions with the idea that Kisame can only chase one of them, they will have no way to hurt Kisame, more so in the water their techniques won't be usable in the first place. Not to mention, their chakra is being constantly drained and Kisame's stamina will neveer ever run out due to that, and if they stay in the dome they're finished, even if Kisame simply continues chasing them and doesn't attack.

So with that said what stops Kisame from just ignoring the masks and going straight for Kakuzu? It's not like they can hurt him anyway, and if they're running far away to get out of the dome, they would have no way of actually hurting Kisame...and you know what happens when the real Kakuzu actually dies.

You neglected to mention the next page:

Spoiler

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Where Kisame actually did pick apart that plan quite easily and can do the same here. Plus, what if Kisame did go for one of the masks and let Kakuzu and the others escape from the dome momentarily? Their objective is still "kill Kisame", they can't just run away from the battle and get a win. Meanwhile fighting vs the dome and Kisame will be certain death.

Now your counter to shark missile:

Spoiler

I'll need more elaboration from you since you didn't explain too much to how Kakuzu counters it. What you did say was that Kakuzu can "use a high level elemental blast to defend" and then "another mask will attack Kisame without fear of Samehada", there's a few problems there. The first is that he should fear samehada, considering he would actually have it to heal him this time around(which brings up another topic) and they should most likely be surrounded in a lake, color me shocked if Kisame doesn't use his most in character technique here.

The 2nd problem is, well, like I said, they're surrounded by a lake. Daikodan dwarfs Kisame completely and makes him look like a dot in size, the shark missile and his water dome surrounds him in every direction for quite some time, any elemental blasts that attempt to hurt Kisame would just be absorbed.

Now the real problem with your counter is simply the mechanics of daikodan which I find pretty obvious. How will Kakuzu use a high scale elemental blast to survive? Not only does he most likely have no idea how Daikodan works, but I'll just link the page:

Spoiler

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Its mechanic is that it eats all ninjutsu to become stronger. Kakuzu's jutsu will just become fuel for the giant shark missile, there's a reason Gai's taijutsu technique didn't do anything. The stronger the ninjutsu the more fuel for Daikodan and it'd destroy Kakuzu, his level of Doton defense won't protect him against that blast especially when he'll likely use fire/wind combo to try and counter it.

Like I said when I mentioned Kisame actually has samehada here, it brings up the other topic of Kisame's durability/stamina.

Spoiler

He didn't have samehada with him and still tanked the Hirudora and could still move and talk as normal. And with KB he had his entire chest blown off. For the 1st case, he never actually had Samehada with him, if he did he would have regenerated to full health in moments just like with Killer Bee when he actually did have samehada.

No technique Kakuzu has is anywhere near that scale, not to mention Kisame broke out of the mokuton prison with ease, and Yamato's mokuton restrained KN4's physical strength before. This Kisame was just hit with hirudora and would have survived despite not having samehada. Not only will samehada regenerate him or potentially absorb all of Kakuzu's attacks but Kisame could outright tank some or dodge them. His reaction speed was enough to dodge a raiton infused pencil at point blank range 2 times, and considering the battle will be fought in Kisame's personal ocean he's far faster underwater anyway and Kakuzu's attacks will be pretty useless here.

If it comes to a battle of endurance, it's pretty obvious anyway, but all Kisame has to do is follow Kakuzu in his water dome for an easy win. There's literally no way for Kakuzu to kill Kisame in that case and Kisame will just continue to drain all of Kakuzu's chakra until he dies. There's lots of stuff I didn't mention like Kisame's water clones, water prisons, 1000 sharks, etc. but I didn't want to discuss those here, plus like I said originally I doubt any of those are actually needed since it makes them overkill judging by water dome and daikodan's hax vs this particular opponent.

And yeah I spoiler tagged my post to make it seem smaller than it is lololol, and maybe I'll actually read the rest of the thread later since I basically just checked the last page and hit quote on NKs latest post.

tl;dr what the guy above me said.

 

[Megan Terumi]

didn't read the debate because giant shark missile

 

[Frikid]

hmm i am surprised.

but really, i can't see kakuzu winning when he got fooled by a mere shadow clone of naruto.
he fought hashirama, the person with the ability to make perfect wood clones , he survived against that guy and yet got fooled by a shadow clone. :shrug:

but it is the truth and i have to get over it.

i believe kisame would win because he showed much more maturity and intelligence than kakuzu.

 

[DeViliShChild]

@DeViliShChild Side Note: Sorry for that. (My quoting seem to be not working right now so imma do a quick reply.)

1.

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- I made a thread about this on how we can't ultimately say that this mask was Earth just because he didn't use it again. So from here WE are still speculating but trying to make a logical conclusion of which is which.

Also scans of him switching his stragtagey and possible that he doesn't want to/ no need for it anymore:

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"Kakashi Penetrated his TRUE ability"

So...

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He wanted to demonstrate his other power.


Ok, but how about when he was on the verge or death, why didn't he use it agaisnt Naruto to block his Rasengan?

Answer:

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-HE had no knowledge on what it can do. So his strategy was:

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- And remember Kakshi is here ready to Raikri him too, if it is possible that he opens it up again. Any to simplify it, he wanted to fight Long-Range.

2.

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Kakashi explains that each have their own stash of chakra on their own.

5 elements. 5 hearts. There is a direct correlation. -1 heart = -1 element. So yes we can conclude that with certainty.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

hmm i am surprised.

but really, i can't see kakuzu winning when he got fooled by a mere shadow clone of naruto.
he fought hashirama, the person with the ability to make perfect wood clones , he survived against that guy and yet got fooled by a shadow clone. :shrug:

but it is the truth and i have to get over it.

i believe kisame would win because he showed much more maturity and intelligence than kakuzu.

Idk why people bring this up and discredit Naruto and Kakuzu.

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That fact that Kakuzu already analyze his moves and was ready to counter it. It was HIS fault for OVER-ANALYZING.

For Naruto: Who would of though that he would sacrifice his own body to mix-in with the Shadow Clone and get fodderize with them.

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The fact that he took a chance is why I give props to Naruto.

Stop making it look like he was weak because of it. Kakuzu simply ignored the shadow clones because he can easily owned them if he wanted to.

 

[Negative Knight]

Im still a little hazy on how this answers my question.

Water dome +fused with Samahada means nothing Kakuzu does can hit Kisame.

If Kakuzu's main body is trapped in water and hearts are outside, then nothing they do can cut through THAT much water. Lightening would be absorbed by the time it hit the middle.

All things inside his water dome are drained of chakara. (

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)

If the hearts are inside it then they will just be drained till death anyway just like kakuzu's main body

That is exactly why Kakuzu escaping the Prison would be essential, in my previous post i've already explained how that can be achieved. Kisame going for Kakuzu while the masks escape will inevitable result in Kakuzu's death, that i agree with.

However once the Water Dome is dispelled and the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have

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Either way, Kakuzu will survive with a few hearts intact so he can continue with the fight.

Ok, I'll argue with you. I didn't read many of your other posts though so maybe there's stuff you already expanded on that I don't know about yet. I want to talk about water dome and shark missile mainly, but imo shark missile is completely overkill and Kisame doesn't need it because if he used it it would destroy Kakuzu, a guy who's based around multiple massive ninjutsu blasts is horrible against shark missile for obvious reasons.

First is your counters to water dome:

Spoiler

Why is Killer Bee's plan valid here? When Kakuzu's masks all go in different directions with the idea that Kisame can only chase one of them, they will have no way to hurt Kisame, more so in the water their techniques won't be usable in the first place. Not to mention, their chakra is being constantly drained and Kisame's stamina will neveer ever run out due to that, and if they stay in the dome they're finished, even if Kisame simply continues chasing them and doesn't attack.

So with that said what stops Kisame from just ignoring the masks and going straight for Kakuzu? It's not like they can hurt him anyway, and if they're running far away to get out of the dome, they would have no way of actually hurting Kisame...and you know what happens when the real Kakuzu actually dies.

You neglected to mention the next page:

Spoiler

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Where Kisame actually did pick apart that plan quite easily and can do the same here. Plus, what if Kisame did go for one of the masks and let Kakuzu and the others escape from the dome momentarily? Their objective is still "kill Kisame", they can't just run away from the battle and get a win. Meanwhile fighting vs the dome and Kisame will be certain death.

Now your counter to shark missile:

Spoiler

I'll need more elaboration from you since you didn't explain too much to how Kakuzu counters it. What you did say was that Kakuzu can "use a high level elemental blast to defend" and then "another mask will attack Kisame without fear of Samehada", there's a few problems there. The first is that he should fear samehada, considering he would actually have it to heal him this time around(which brings up another topic) and they should most likely be surrounded in a lake, color me shocked if Kisame doesn't use his most in character technique here.

The 2nd problem is, well, like I said, they're surrounded by a lake. Daikodan dwarfs Kisame completely and makes him look like a dot in size, the shark missile and his water dome surrounds him in every direction for quite some time, any elemental blasts that attempt to hurt Kisame would just be absorbed.

Now the real problem with your counter is simply the mechanics of daikodan which I find pretty obvious. How will Kakuzu use a high scale elemental blast to survive? Not only does he most likely have no idea how Daikodan works, but I'll just link the page:

Spoiler

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Its mechanic is that it eats all ninjutsu to become stronger. Kakuzu's jutsu will just become fuel for the giant shark missile, there's a reason Gai's taijutsu technique didn't do anything. The stronger the ninjutsu the more fuel for Daikodan and it'd destroy Kakuzu, his level of Doton defense won't protect him against that blast especially when he'll likely use fire/wind combo to try and counter it.

Like I said when I mentioned Kisame actually has samehada here, it brings up the other topic of Kisame's durability/stamina.

Spoiler

He didn't have samehada with him and still tanked the Hirudora and could still move and talk as normal. And with KB he had his entire chest blown off. For the 1st case, he never actually had Samehada with him, if he did he would have regenerated to full health in moments just like with Killer Bee when he actually did have samehada.

No technique Kakuzu has is anywhere near that scale, not to mention Kisame broke out of the mokuton prison with ease, and Yamato's mokuton restrained KN4's physical strength before. This Kisame was just hit with hirudora and would have survived despite not having samehada. Not only will samehada regenerate him or potentially absorb all of Kakuzu's attacks but Kisame could outright tank some or dodge them. His reaction speed was enough to dodge a raiton infused pencil at point blank range 2 times, and considering the battle will be fought in Kisame's personal ocean he's far faster underwater anyway and Kakuzu's attacks will be pretty useless here.

If it comes to a battle of endurance, it's pretty obvious anyway, but all Kisame has to do is follow Kakuzu in his water dome for an easy win. There's literally no way for Kakuzu to kill Kisame in that case and Kisame will just continue to drain all of Kakuzu's chakra until he dies. There's lots of stuff I didn't mention like Kisame's water clones, water prisons, 1000 sharks, etc. but I didn't want to discuss those here, plus like I said originally I doubt any of those are actually needed since it makes them overkill judging by water dome and daikodan's hax vs this particular opponent.

And yeah I spoiler tagged my post to make it seem smaller than it is lololol, and maybe I'll actually read the rest of the thread later since I basically just checked the last page and hit quote on NKs latest post.

Killer Bee's plan isn't a replica of this scenario, Kisame wanted him alive and knew Killer Bee wanted to save the other two. Kisame's own killing intent, spiteful nature and wanting to capture Killer Bee meant he could achieve his objective and have "fun". In this scenario, Kisame will have to pursue one of the hearts or Kakuzu, where he would undoubtedly follow Kakuzu due to the lack of knowledge that he can revive himself at a later point.

The Masks flight ability lead me to believe they themselves might not even be caught in the dome to begin with.

Alright i'll lead onto my own trump cards now. These have already been stated in the thread but i'll eloborate into them further.

Spoiler

-Versatility of Earth Grudge Fear Transformations v1 and v2​

These insanely powerful dark thread transformations are often overlooked when considering Kakuzu’s moveset. To different degrees of effectiveness respectively, they grant him superiority in close combat which Kakuzu could use to his own advantage by:

-Overwhelming Kisame with a sheer amount of assaults from his threads
-A restraint mechanism which could be combed with powerful ninjutsu projectiles from his masks
-A pseudo form of flight by swinging from one part of the terrain to another
-Use them as prosthetic flexible limbs to hold off Kisame's own attacks whilst simultaneously attacking himself

Kakuzu's Earth Grudge Transformation v2

Spoiler

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Kakuzu was shown to use his v2 (Long range) transformation to perch himself on higher parts of the terrain, which could be used as a escape mechanism from Kisame’s Water Dome technique or even as shielding himself from large waves of water.

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to escape from when he was initially caught which could potentially mean it could act in a similar way to

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, granted to a much lesser extent, to prevent Kisame from forming handseals and using his larger scale ninjutsu attacks.

When merged with his masks, Kakuzu has shown that they retain the ability to act on his command, suggesting that he could engage Kisame in Taijutsu whilst using high scale ninjutsu which would be impossible for Samehada to absorb completely. I’ll return to this specific point later on.

Kakuzu's Dark Threads Acting like extra Limbs for combat

Spoiler

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Kisame’s reliance on Samehada could be exploited as a severe weakness by Kakuzu, his transformation would enable him to restrain the sword and succeed in either landing a direct hit on Kisame or separating him from his sword which he could seize as a opportunity to land a fatal katon/fuuton infused blast which Kisame wouldn’t be able to regenerate from due to his separation from his sword.

On a final note, Kakuzu has shown time and time again the lethal purposes his dark threads could be used for, primarily through choking his opponents to death on repeated occasions, and

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, deep enough so he could integrate their heart into his own system instantaneously. This could possibly suggest an alternative use of Kakuzu's threads to make lethal hits on Kisame, amputate whole limbs or even kill Samehada.

With these transformations Kakuzu undoubtedly far exceeds Kisame's ability in raw combat, with literally 100s of offensives that can be created in mere moments due to the sheer amount of threads. Earlier i mentioned the lethality of the threads, but didn't explore it much. They've already shown enough strength to rip through bodies with relative ease in order to extract hearts when combined with Kakuzu's V2 Transformation he could use this to an even higher degree.

Kakuzu attempting to ensnare Naruto with his V2 Transformation

Spoiler

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Against a method like the one shown in the 2nd panel above would render Kisame powerless, all of the individual threads holding him in place long enough to tear through his body and puncture/rip out a vital organ, probably in order to replace a heart he lost through the course of the battle (an assumption). Kisame's regeneration capabilities do go far i admit that, but they're not on a scale high enough to regenerate missing organs. Even then i'm assuming Samehada would regenerate him as this method is not a chakra intensive one where Samehada is provided with fuel chakra to heal him.

Also i feel we're digressing from the opening stages of the fight, Kisame would undoubtedly have the advantage with Suiton Daikdon. But i feel its a weak counter to someone like Kakuzu, he has a presence in five locations at once, if the missile is directed at Kakuzu, he leaves himself entirely open to be hit by all the other hearts. Whilst Kakuzu would sustain some damage, it shouldn't prove to be lethal due to the nature of the technique. Whether i'm wrong in that assumption or not is covered by his remaining hearts just reintegrating back into his body.

In the opening stages of the fight, Kakuzu is at a much higher advantage than Kisame. Attempting to block all attacks from different angles form Kakuzu's masks would be far too unsatisfactory, Samehada is often used at a shield but with four different offensives at once, it can only absorb one at most, with the others becoming free hits. I've already explained earlier how this could possibly turn out, the best scenario in Kisame's favour would be to stop the lightning offensive and let the others deal damage, otherwise he wouldn't be able to absorb the other attacks completely anyway.

The reason this is effective is mainly down to the reliance his regeneration has on Samehada's chakra absorption, it heals him in direct proportion to the amount of chakra he absorbed from the attack. Killer Bee was a special case as he had chakra levels of a Bijuu, Nagato's Preta path even restored his youth after draining Killer Bee. Absorbing one of Kakuzu's attacks in exchange for the other three landing would hardly balance out, with Kisame remaining with serious damage as a result. All of this is assuming that Samehada isn't killed in the process of being struck multiple times.

hmm i am surprised.

but really, i can't see kakuzu winning when he got fooled by a mere shadow clone of naruto.
he fought hashirama, the person with the ability to make perfect wood clones , he survived against that guy and yet got fooled by a shadow clone. :shrug:

but it is the truth and i have to get over it.

i believe kisame would win because he showed much more maturity and intelligence than kakuzu.

EjBlack already explained why Kakuzu was hit by Naruto.

Honestly, with Kisame being my favourite character (Kakuzu is a close 2nd) i have to admit that Kakuzu is far more mature, serious and intelligent than him.

 

[Joki]

That is exactly why Kakuzu escaping the Prison would be essential, in my previous post i've already explained how that can be achieved. Kisame going for Kakuzu while the masks escape will inevitable result in Kakuzu's death, that i agree with.

However once the Water Dome is dispelled and the other hearts escape the prison and Kakuzu "dies" due to a deprivation of oxygen, the hearts have

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Either way, Kakuzu will survive with a few hearts intact so he can continue with the fight.



Killer Bee's plan isn't a replica of this scenario, Kisame wanted him alive and knew Killer Bee wanted to save the other two. Kisame's own killing intent, spiteful nature and not wanting to Killer Bee meant he could achieve his objective and have "fun". In this scenario, Kisame will have to pursue one of the hearts or Kakuzu, where he would undoubtedly follow Kakuzu due to the lack of knowledge that he can revive himself at a later point.

The Masks flight ability lead me to believe they themselves might not even be caught in the dome to begin with.

Alright i'll lead onto my own trump cards now. These have already been stated in the thread but i'll eloborate into them further.

Spoiler

-Versatility of Earth Grudge Fear Transformations v1 and v2​

These insanely powerful dark thread transformations are often overlooked when considering Kakuzu’s moveset. To different degrees of effectiveness respectively, they grant him superiority in close combat which Kakuzu could use to his own advantage by:

-Overwhelming Kisame with a sheer amount of assaults from his threads
-A restraint mechanism which could be combed with powerful ninjutsu projectiles from his masks
-A pseudo form of flight by swinging from one part of the terrain to another
-Use them as prosthetic flexible limbs to hold off Kisame's own attacks whilst simultaneously attacking himself

Kakuzu's Earth Grudge Transformation v2

Spoiler

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Kakuzu was shown to use his v2 (Long range) transformation to perch himself on higher parts of the terrain, which could be used as a escape mechanism from Kisame’s Water Dome technique or even as shielding himself from large waves of water.

You must be registered for see links

to escape from when he was initially caught which could potentially mean it could act in a similar way to

You must be registered for see links

, granted to a much lesser extent, to prevent Kisame from forming handseals and using his larger scale ninjutsu attacks.

When merged with his masks, Kakuzu has shown that they retain the ability to act on his command, suggesting that he could engage Kisame in Taijutsu whilst using high scale ninjutsu which would be impossible for Samehada to absorb completely. I’ll return to this specific point later on.

Kakuzu's Dark Threads Acting like extra Limbs for combat

Spoiler

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Kisame’s reliance on Samehada could be exploited as a severe weakness by Kakuzu, his transformation would enable him to restrain the sword and succeed in either landing a direct hit on Kisame or separating him from his sword which he could seize as a opportunity to land a fatal katon/fuuton infused blast which Kisame wouldn’t be able to regenerate from due to his separation from his sword.

On a final note, Kakuzu has shown time and time again the lethal purposes his dark threads could be used for, primarily through choking his opponents to death on repeated occasions, and

You must be registered for see links

, deep enough so he could integrate their heart into his own system instantaneously. This could possibly suggest an alternative use of Kakuzu's threads to make lethal hits on Kisame, amputate whole limbs or even kill Samehada.

With these transformations Kakuzu undoubtedly far exceeds Kisame's ability in raw combat, with literally 100s of offensives that can be created in mere moments due to the sheer amount of threads. Earlier i mentioned the lethality of the threads, but didn't explore it much. They've already shown enough strength to rip through bodies with relative ease in order to extract hearts when combined with Kakuzu's V2 Transformation he could use this to an even higher degree.

Kakuzu attempting to ensnare Naruto with his V2 Transformation

Spoiler

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Against a method like the one shown in the 2nd panel above would render Kisame powerless, all of the individual threads holding him in place long enough to tear through his body and puncture/rip out a vital organ, probably in order to replace a heart he lost through the course of the battle (an assumption). Kisame's regeneration capabilities do go far i admit that, but they're not on a scale high enough to regenerate missing organs. Even then i'm assuming Samehada would regenerate him as this method is not a chakra intensive one where Samehada is provided with fuel chakra to heal him.

Also i feel we're digressing from the opening stages of the fight, Kisame would undoubtedly have the advantage with Suiton Daikdon. But i feel its a weak counter to someone like Kakuzu, he has a presence in five locations at once, if the missile is directed at Kakuzu, he leaves himself entirely open to be hit by all the other hearts. Whilst Kakuzu would sustain some damage, it shouldn't prove to be lethal due to the nature of the technique. Whether i'm wrong in that assumption or not is covered by his remaining hearts just reintegrating back into his body.

In the opening stages of the fight, Kakuzu is at a much higher advantage than Kisame. Attempting to block all attacks from different angles form Kakuzu's masks would be far too unsatisfactory, Samehada is often used at a shield but with four different offensives at once, it can only absorb one at most, with the others becoming free hits. I've already explained earlier how this could possibly turn out, the best scenario in Kisame's favour would be to stop the lightning offensive and let the others deal damage, otherwise he wouldn't be able to absorb the other attacks completely anyway.

The reason this is effective is mainly down to the reliance his regeneration has on Samehada's chakra absorption, it heals him in direct proportion to the amount of chakra he absorbed from the attack. Killer Bee was a special case as he had chakra levels of a Bijuu, Nagato's Preta path even restored his youth after draining Killer Bee. Absorbing one of Kakuzu's attacks in exchange for the other three landing would hardly balance out, with Kisame remaining with serious damage as a result. All of this is assuming that Samehada isn't killed in the process of being struck multiple times.




EjBlack already explained why Kakuzu was hit by Naruto.

Honestly, with Kisame being my favourite character (Kakuzu is a close 2nd) i have to admit that Kakuzu is far more mature, serious and intelligent than him.

Exactly what I'm trying to say., If he goes after Kakuzu, what does he plan to do when Kisame drains all of his chakra and kills him? The masks still have to traverse through the dome and revive Kakuzu. He has no way to hurt Kakuzu within the dome still, and Daikodan is far too massive for "Kakuzu has 5 different lives within his masks so being hit with a chakra absorbing monster blast that would one shot Kakuzu" to be a valid counter.

None of his "V2" transformation actually is an effective counter to daikodan or water dome, while they're nice and all, it won't stop Kisame from continuously absorbing his chakra within the dome or rendering every ninjutsu tech useless with Daikodan or his multiple other jutsus like 1000 sharks. More so you keep emphasizing how his threads are useful to grab Kisame, which is great because Kisame was hit by threads and used his ability to

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instead of the intended opposite effect.

Plus, what happened to samehada and Kisame's enhanced speed here? It only took a few seconds to take a full health 100% chakra perfect jin Killer Bee for Samehada to suck all of its chakra and give it to Kisame, making Killer Bee lightheaded and almost faint due to chakra loss. I think it's fairly obvious who has more chakra between KB and Kakuzu. That's also the reason Kisame is the bijuu without tails and the greatest bijuu hunter in Akatsuki.

His masks aren't all that strong as well, one hit from Choji or any basic jutsu would destroy the mask and heart, they aren't 5 copies of an elite Kakuzu level shinobi, they're just masks with 1 jutsu each. 1000 sharks is far too vast an attack, it required Gai to resort to Hirudora, as cool as Kakuzu's attacks are, Daikodan and Kisame's arsenal are far too much for them especially given the above.

Which like I said before, as useful as Kakuzu's released thread form is, it still doesn't change the fact it's not all that useful vs water dome and it can't do anything against Daikodan. So I still don't see any effective counters to Kisame's arsenal or any at all. Water domes also huge, far larger than Kakuzu's threads could reach to "pull him out" like you think...plus if his objective is to beat Kisame here, he can't just keep running away. How does Kakuzu hope to win exactly?

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Exactly what I'm trying to say., If he goes after Kakuzu, what does he plan to do when Kisame drains all of his chakra and kills him? The masks still have to traverse through the dome and revive Kakuzu. He has no way to hurt Kakuzu within the dome still, and Daikodan is far too massive for "Kakuzu has 5 different lives within his masks so being hit with a chakra absorbing monster blast that would one shot Kakuzu" to be a valid counter.

None of his "V2" transformation actually is an effective counter to daikodan or water dome, while they're nice and all, it won't stop Kisame from continuously absorbing his chakra within the dome or rendering every ninjutsu tech useless with Daikodan or his multiple other jutsus like 1000 sharks. More so you keep emphasizing how his threads are useful to grab Kisame, which is great because Kisame was hit by threads and used his ability to

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instead of the intended opposite effect.

Plus, what happened to samehada and Kisame's enhanced speed here? It only took a few seconds to take a full health 100% chakra perfect jin Killer Bee for Samehada to suck all of its chakra and give it to Kisame, making Killer Bee lightheaded and almost faint due to chakra loss. I think it's fairly obvious who has more chakra between KB and Kakuzu. That's also the reason Kisame is the bijuu without tails and the greatest bijuu hunter in Akatsuki.

His masks aren't all that strong as well, one hit from Choji or any basic jutsu would destroy the mask and heart, they aren't 5 copies of an elite Kakuzu level shinobi, they're just masks with 1 jutsu each. 1000 sharks is far too vast an attack, it required Gai to resort to Hirudora, as cool as Kakuzu's attacks are, Daikodan and Kisame's arsenal are far too much for them especially given the above.

Which like I said before, as useful as Kakuzu's released thread form is, it still doesn't change the fact it's not all that useful vs water dome and it can't do anything against Daikodan. So I still don't see any effective counters to Kisame's arsenal or any at all. Water domes also huge, far larger than Kakuzu's threads could reach to "pull him out" like you think...plus if his objective is to beat Kisame here, he can't just keep running away. How does Kakuzu hope to win exactly?

I think you might want to re read his argument again some of the questions are in repeat that are already been answered.

I would like to make a Side note on one of you points.

2nd paragrah. Those are two different threads. Kakuzu's is merely focus through straining and piecing. The other guy is use to POUR chakra INTO the opponent to paralyze him.

 

[Joki]

I think you might want to re read his argument again some of the questions are in repeat that are already been answered.

I would like to make a Side note on one of you points.

2nd paragrah. Those are two different threads. Kakuzu's is merely focus through straining and piecing. The other guy is use to POUR chakra INTO the opponent to paralyze him.

..no they haven't. Inside his water dome Kakuzu's chakra is constantly being drained, Considering Kisame had the ability to change the entire jutsu's mechanics to support him and suck its chakra, it's far from a stretch.

Since you focused on an extremely miniscule afterthought in my post it's pretty clear you don't have any realistic counters of Kakuzu's to water dome or daikodan or similar either.

some of the questions are in repeat that are already been answered.

Like?

 

[6 Paths of Pain]

I think Kisame can beat him but nice thread as always.

 

[Simple Math]

since i think this can go either way, i can argue for both of them.. which one should it be?