(Negative Knight) Establishing why Sasori was one of the most OP Ninja (Debate)

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DeadManWonderLand

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The fact that Sasori has been shown to use over a hundred puppets at once each with poison tipped weapons is more then enough for me to believe that he has surpassed Itachi.
i liked the thread it was very methodical and he was not bias towards either person but he did leave out many of itachis moves along with his weapons as well.How can you say he has surpassed itachi ? because he can wield a lot of puppets ? that is not a fact that proves he is better then itachi maybe if itachi fought the same way i could see where your coming from but he doesnt use puppets like sasori does,so how you came to the conclusion that sasori using his puppet style in a proficient way (because he is a puppet master) proves he is better then itachi is beyond me and also proves you have no comparing and analytical skills whatsoever
 

Anakin Skywalker

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awesome thread ....

1.truly sasori's immunity to genjutsu is a big advantage for him ....no arguing that U_U

2.itachi will have a heard time with iron sand also..and its varying tech especially spikes

3.itachi also an advantage here its his precognition with sharingan he can predict what attack will come from which direction and which puppets to a certain extend and itachi is always rated well for speed so he can evade sasori's puppet army and fire release without even the protection of susanoo .... sasori's poison weapon is oneshot victory but the chances of it actually hitting itachi is small (come on sakura was able to dodge them :p)

4.Iron sand also gives protection from Amaterasu

4.so i think it'll come down to how long itachi can fight with his susanoo activated

so i think itachi high diff but it could also go sasori's way
 

DeadManWonderLand

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Sasori gets alot of propers from me. If I was Itachi, Sasori is an opponent I avoid if possible. Sasori can be dealt with. Quick and desicively. Crows packing black flames decimating his(sasori's) arsenal then it official its me and you. From there there should be no question who is going to win. Flowing iron is easier to mold. Rigid it becomes cumbersome. Im fire style, that ability(iron sand) can become a weakness. I can do it all from a distance. Enjoying my self maybe even lounging in my lazy boy. If i was to touch you trust you would complain I f***** up your high. LOL

exactly he could of used his ultimate long range attack the Yasaka Magatama one of the many justu along with his weapons like the totsuka sword and yata mirror that got left out of the vs thread
 

DeViliShChild

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Itachi's sharingan allows him to dodge everything just as Chiyo would have.
Plus, if he really screwed up he could activate Susano.
Plus, if he REALLY screwed up, Izangai is a possibility, but i doubt it would come to that.

As for offense, Itachi has Amataratsu, would just hit Sasori and kill him. Sasori isn't know for his speed just mastery of puppets.

Itachi's ability to ananlyze allows him to have tons of possbilities to win.
I.E. Create a clone to just punch out the heart.
 

Vandenre1ch

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exactly he could of used his ultimate long range attack the Yasaka Magatama one of the many justu along with his weapons like the totsuka sword and yata mirror that got left out of the vs thread
Well Ive always viewed Itachi>Sasori but this threads got me thinking otherwise.

Sure yasaka nagatama can help Itachi for a few but thats apart of Susanoo. Itachi would run out of stamina and Sasori can just block it with Iron Sand.

But whats stopping Itachi from activating Susanoo and charge at Sasori with totsuka blade using yata mirror and susanoo itself to tank Sasori's puppets ya know?
Oh well......
 

Negative Knight

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I do not agree with your argument that Genjutsu is useless against Sasori. You said:


Furthermore:




The fundamental flaw seems to be a logical/scientific one. If you are going to bring science into this (i.e. arguments about the body [respiratory system, nervous system]), then the burden is upon you to answer some glaring inconsistencies.

Here is a question for you: How does Sasori see? How is he able to locate people and visually perceive where they are? He doesn't have a brain, so he doesn't have an occipital lobe--there is no visual cortex. Obviously, he doesn't even have eyes, so he has no physical means for vision.

Yet, the miracle here is, he sees! He can perceive. How is that possible. If you want to argue from a scientific standpoint, saying that he cannot feel pain because he has no nervous system, that's all well and good.

However, at some point you have to answer extremely simple questions like, how can Sasori see? If you're being consistent, then you have to maintain that Sasori cannot see and has no means to see. How is he even alive at all.

This is the weakness of your argument. In fact, this is the bane of all "fairy tales", so to speak. One requires a suspension of disbelief.

So I argue that, based on what you've said, Itachi will win because Sasori has no visual cortex since he has not brain and he cannot see. Do you understand what I'm saying?

But the thing is, Sasori can see. It seems that Sasori, who is a puppet, in a sense, via some jutsu, fully embodies the "master puppet". Now, feel free to argue this. I am by no means taking this view, but it seems that if you want to explain your inconsistency, this is the route you will have to go. Now, if Sasori fully embodies the "master puppet", and by some means is able to perceive through vision the world around him, then it stands to reason that he can be put under Genjutsu.

If you are not convinced, what about hearing? Does Sasori have ears? No? Again, he doesn't even have a brain. Yet he can dialogue with Sakura and Chiyo as if he heard everything loud and clear. But does that mean he would be susceptible to the frog song Jutsu? If Sasori can hear, which he obviously can, despite the lack of the explainable scientific means, then it stands to reason that he can be put under Genjutsu.

How do you answer against these arguments? Will you be consistent, and acknowledge that your scientific explanation are inconsistent and do not make sense when consistently applied? I'm curious to hear your response.
Its good we have some common ground about Sasori not feeling pain.

However, much like all other ninja Sasori has a chakra system provided by his core, it is his means of awakening a inanimate object and making it into his own functioning body.

My argument wasn't that Sasori can't see, can't hear and etc because he doesn't have those organs but rather Genjutsu doesn't work due to the strucutre of his brain.

Genjutsu affects a specific target organ in humans and animals (a section of the brain) which controls temperature and etc, aiming to disrupt that particular section's chakra flow. All i'm saying is, if the target organ doesn't exist as shown with Shino's insects, then Genjutsu doesn't work.

Sasori can see because of chakra networks, same with his hearing, same with his consciousness, he however can't be affected by Genjutsu due to lacking the necessary component in his brain for it to have any effect in disrupting his chakra.
 
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~Puppet Master~

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Itachi's sharingan allows him to dodge everything just as Chiyo would have.
Plus, if he really screwed up he could activate Susano.
Plus, if he REALLY screwed up, Izangai is a possibility, but i doubt it would come to that.

As for offense, Itachi has Amataratsu, would just hit Sasori and kill him. Sasori isn't know for his speed just mastery of puppets.

Itachi's ability to ananlyze allows him to have tons of possbilities to win.
I.E. Create a clone to just punch out the heart.
He can see, yes, but his body needs to be able to keep up, he can't dodge Iron Sand Bullets.
He won't recklessly use Susanoo, Sasori on the other hand, can use Sandaime from the start and poison Itachi.
Read the thread, Sasori can block Amaterasu, or he could easily switch bodies since he doesn't flinch from the pain.
Plus, Amaterasu takes time to activate, leaving Itachi vulnerable.

Sasori is just as intelligent as Itachi, if not smarter.
That's the worst and mosts unrealistic example I've heard in a while.
 

Vandenre1ch

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He can see, yes, but his body needs to be able to keep up, he can't dodge Iron Sand Bullets.
He won't recklessly use Susanoo, Sasori on the other hand, can use Sandaime from the start and poison Itachi.
Read the thread, Sasori can block Amaterasu, or he could easily switch bodies since he doesn't flinch from the pain.
Plus, Amaterasu takes time to activate, leaving Itachi vulnerable.

Sasori is just as intelligent as Itachi, if not smarter.
That's the worst and mosts unrealistic example I've heard in a while.
If a fight with Sasori, Itachi would have to defeat him with NO INJURIES or he will lose. That it is hard to believe. Susanoo would protect Itachi from almost all of Sasori's attacks but its only temporary. Like you said, Itachi's 3 main trump cards are rendered useless/weakened against Sasori.
And I though Kabuto was an anti-Uchiha.
 

Noobastank

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0_0 Sasori is in my top ten after this. i knew the dude was beasty but i guess tha manga never gave him enough credit for how truley good he was. this gives me an even better understanding of how good his really was. Honestly i dont know how itachi wins this. Sasori is built in a way not to feel pain or genjutsu. With genjutsu not working this automatically rules out Tsukiyomi, Sword of Totsuka, and in theory Izanami. Itachi can only hope to hit him with amaterasu and have it burn him for 7 straight days until he is nothing but i doubt that would happen honestly. Honestly i dont know how itachi pulls this one off. i think itachi loses due to poisoning. if he does happen to get poisoned then sassuno will only make his life end quicker. i honestly think sasori is the best suited to fight and beat itachi.
 

natzzz

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i agree that sassori>itachi.people underestimate him too much.sassori only lost because chiyo was there.if there wasn't another puppet master he wud have won.
 

Guilty as Sin

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Its good we have some common ground about Sasori not feeling pain.

However, much like all other ninja Sasori has a chakra system provided by his core, it is his means of awakening a inanimate object and making it into his own functioning body.

My argument wasn't that Sasori can't see, can't hear and etc because he doesn't have those organs but rather Genjutsu doesn't work due to the strucutre of his brain.

Genjutsu affects a specific target organ in humans and animals (a section of the brain) which controls temperature and etc, aiming to disrupt that particular section's chakra flow. All i'm saying is, if the target organ doesn't exist as shown with Shino's insects, then Genjutsu doesn't work.

Sasori can see because of chakra networks, same with his hearing, same with his consciousness, he however can't be affected by Genjutsu due to lacking the necessary component in his brain for it to have any effect in disrupting his chakra.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. You said that Sasori cannot be affected by Genjutsu "due to the lacking the necessary component in his brain for it to have any effect in disrupting his chakra".

First of all, Sasori doesn't have a brain. You acknowledged this in your original post ("doesn't possess a brain", I think were your words).

Let's say we both accepted that this were true. We both agreed that Sasori doesn't have a brain, so he cannot be affected by Genjutsu. You are arguing this very thing, which is why you are also, if you wish to be consistent, that are arguing that Sasori doesn't need to breath (because he has no respiratory system).

This, however, cannot be the case. And the reason for this is because, if you were to apply the same logic you used to argue your other points about Sasori's body, but apply it to Sasori's sight or hearing, you would have to conclude that because he has no ears or eyes or brain with an occipital lobe and visual cortext, then Sasori therefore cannot see or hear.

You did not say this directly, but you implied it. Your reasoning must therefore logically be rejected because this is not the case. Sasori can hear and he can see.

One way or another, you will have to accept the fact that either you fully apply science, and come to the conclusion that Sasori can't see or hear and therefore loses (which cannot be the case)...

or that, in some mystical way (whether by chakra, jutsu, or a simple suspense of belief), Sasori can hear, can see, and can feel (both emotional and physical). If these senses are available to him, then it stands to reason that he can be put under Genjutsu, even if he doesn't have the "component" or "organ" available.

Think about it, he doesn't have any organs and yet he is alive. Laws of the universe are being broken, therefore laws of the universe cannot be applied.

Maybe Sasori can't be affected by Genjustu. But I'll tell you this, it's not because he doesn't have X part of his brain. He doesn't even have a brain. He shouldn't be alive. You're going to have to prove that through some other means--means which I do not believe you can conjure up. Unless you can definitively prove that Sasori is immune to Genjutsu, then we should not throw that under the table when considering what Itachi can use.

Edit: Let me just say though that I have not, by arguing against this, conclude that your entire post is wrong. It is very well thought and organized and I applaud you and commend you for taking the time and effort. I simply disagree with this one component, which is a very important one. Whether or not Itachi can use genjutsu will definitely affect the battle.

It seems somewhat reasonable to say that Sasori is immune to Genjutsu, given the unique state of his existence. However, as I've said before, there is no definitive evidence, at least for me.
 
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snake orochimaru

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another excellent thread!!! I'm glad that some people don't see Itachi as an undefeatable god.

I've read the thread carefully and I must say that it's very well documented.

Sasori is clearly a winner due to the fact that Itachi's genjutsu can't harm him and Amaterasu can be rendered useless by switching bodies.

the only problems that Sasori will face will be Susano'o and its spiritual weapons: Yata mirror, which deflects any attack and most importantly Totsuka blade; the last one is a one shot kill and I think that Itachi has the skill to get close enough for a stab; you might say that Sasori will transfer himself to another puppet...remember when Itachi sealed Orochimaru: the latter's phisycal form was also sucked in that dimension, not only his soul (see Death Reaper God).

overall, this fight goes to Sasori; but I wouldn't bet all my money on him xd
 

DeViliShChild

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He can see, yes, but his body needs to be able to keep up, he can't dodge Iron Sand Bullets.
He won't recklessly use Susanoo, Sasori on the other hand, can use Sandaime from the start and poison Itachi.
Read the thread, Sasori can block Amaterasu, or he could easily switch bodies since he doesn't flinch from the pain.
Plus, Amaterasu takes time to activate, leaving Itachi vulnerable.

Sasori is just as intelligent as Itachi, if not smarter.
That's the worst and mosts unrealistic example I've heard in a while.

1 yes he can keep up.
2. He can dodge it.

3. I have read it, and i obviously disagree or I would not have brought it up. Do you actually think Itachi would stand there defenseless? He never does anything that would put him in dangers way with no way out.

4. I audibly laughed at that. That is absolutely ridiculous that you think that Sasori is anywhere near Itachi's intelligence. I havn't seen any manga in reference to Sasori's above level of intelligence. So no.

5. That was stated to show that Itachi can make something as ridiculous as that and find a way to make it work.
 

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It's an extremely tough one but Itachi's intellect surpasses most ninja in Naruto. We look at Sasuke vs Deidara and we see that Sasuke can pull of a very complex plan made within a short time successfully. Itachi has always been known for his superior intellect and so, Itachi could most probably outmanoeuvre Sasori.

Itachi could use wire strings to restrain Sasori in his Hiruko puppet form and use a fire technique or two to eventually break through the sand. Then, the 'problem' comes. The Iron Sand, you forgot to note that around 500°C Magnetite becomes paramagnetic, which means that it's magnetic properties weaken considerably. I think that once Sasori saw how much less effective the Iron Sand had become, he would withdraw the sand and go for his Hundred Puppets. These puppets are weaker individually but overwhelming because of their numbers. This is where Itachi's already not so great Chakra takes a beating. He can either go straight for MS and blast a few big shots of Amaterasu before Sasori gets a chance to spread them or if Sasori gets them moving quick enough, he would probably have to spam Housenka no Jutsu + Sharingan to read movements of the puppets. After this, Itachi is quite obviously going to be worn down a lot.

This is the final point of the battle, Sasori is using himself to fight. I think at this point, Itachi is going to get injured because Sasori doesn't strike me as the type to leave an opening untouched, unless Itachi uses his crow jutsu but I doubt that because he'll want to conserve the chakra he has left. This is where Itachi will use MS for Amaterasu but I'm not entirely sure that would finish it. Sasori's puppet body is pretty durable and he would probably just transfer the heart component to another puppet that isn't too badly damaged and this would pull Itachi into Susano'o and push Itachi into sealing the puppet with Totsuka sword as quickly as possible.

If Itachi's at full strength from the start, he can dodge most of Sasori's attacks and at the end, take a long rest to recover. If he's ill, he dies too unless he has some meds.
 
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Negative Knight

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying. You said that Sasori cannot be affected by Genjutsu "due to the lacking the necessary component in his brain for it to have any effect in disrupting his chakra".

First of all, Sasori doesn't have a brain. You acknowledged this in your original post ("doesn't possess a brain", I think were your words).

Let's say we both accepted that this were true. We both agreed that Sasori doesn't have a brain, so he cannot be affected by Genjutsu. You are arguing this very thing, which is why you are also, if you wish to be consistent, that are arguing that Sasori doesn't need to breath (because he has no respiratory system).

This, however, cannot be the case. And the reason for this is because, if you were to apply the same logic you used to argue your other points about Sasori's body, but apply it to Sasori's sight or hearing, you would have to conclude that because he has no ears or eyes or brain with an occipital lobe and visual cortext, then Sasori therefore cannot see or hear.

You did not say this directly, but you implied it. Your reasoning must therefore logically be rejected because this is not the case. Sasori can hear and he can see.

One way or another, you will have to accept the fact that either you fully apply science, and come to the conclusion that Sasori can't see or hear and therefore loses (which cannot be the case)...

or that, in some mystical way (whether by chakra, jutsu, or a simple suspense of belief), Sasori can hear, can see, and can feel (both emotional and physical). If these senses are available to him, then it stands to reason that he can be put under Genjutsu, even if he doesn't have the "component" or "organ" available.

Think about it, he doesn't have any organs and yet he is alive. Laws of the universe are being broken, therefore laws of the universe cannot be applied.

Maybe Sasori can't be affected by Genjustu. But I'll tell you this, it's not because he doesn't have X part of his brain. He doesn't even have a brain. He shouldn't be alive. You're going to have to prove that through some other means--means which I do not believe you can conjure up. Unless you can definitively prove that Sasori is immune to Genjutsu, then we should not throw that under the table when considering what Itachi can use.

Edit: Let me just say though that I have not, by arguing against this, conclude that your entire post is wrong. It is very well thought and organized and I applaud you and commend you for taking the time and effort. I simply disagree with this one component, which is a very important one. Whether or not Itachi can use genjutsu will definitely affect the battle.

It seems somewhat reasonable to say that Sasori is immune to Genjutsu, given the unique state of his existence. However, as I've said before, there is no definitive evidence, at least for me.
Again you're assuming that no scientfic principal can hold any basis in Naruto due to slight inconsistencies in the plot.

I could make multiple rhetoric question to counter your points, but they would be to no avail. If we think in an empiricist view, then nothing holds any basis in the NU.

Science holds a small basis in Naruto, the workings of Genjutsu would be non-existent without it. It by definition affects the cerebrum and uses eyes (biological ones) as a medium to cast a Genjutsu.

Ignore the scientific point i made about Sasori's core, the fundamental principle is there is no medium to affect him through, disrupting chakra flow in a non-existent organ cannot take place and etc.

Its like trying to use the Jashin Ritual on Sasori's Puppet Body. If there is no medium (the blood) then there is no desired effect.

The necessary flaw which exists in your argument is, the complete disregard for scientific principals. If your logic were to be directly applied to everything else, then drowning no longer seems to be a threat, extreme heats seemingly have no effect on the body, blinding lights don't affect optical lobes and deafening roars don't cause pain to the ears.

On several separate occasions, each of the points i raised above hold basis in the Naruto Verse. While i agree NU is not a replica of reality, it is based on our fundamental principles but with the inclusion of chakra and such.
 

captainEO

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woah, this is a pretty awesome thread. Every argument was really well founded.

You have compelling reasons as to why Sasori would win. You've almost made me scared of him.

Sasori really is one of Itachi's worst matchups, especially if his genjutsu is off the cards.

But, Itachi is highly intelligent, and could find counter strategies to most of Sasori's techniques
I think it would be a matter of Itachi using his techniques more effectively

Anyway, I think this is neck and neck, but I still think Itachi would win.

And if you really want, I could write a longer response fully detailing why I think Itachi could take this.
I have several strategies that Itachi could use.
 
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